I'd like so many circle of protection essentially for meta-based reason, in Italy the in real tournament on 100 player u could find about 30 archetypes and mbc and angle delver are very present in numbers, burn and Klin fiend are not instead.maybe I can trade on copy of black one for the fourth quite disrepair.I'm not a fan of respite cause the lifegain is useful only vs goblin, red deck wins and gw token(very easy match up by the way) I'd like the cc1 cost fog for optimize the denial+fog trick eot and for mana saving (I've 4 foil respite starving in my collection). Rofello's gift is useful as sostitute of reclaim vs enchantment hate. Countermagic are counterable with dispel and pyroblast and honestly I don't wanna run in counterwar with ur drake, faerie macabre is uncounterable and doesn't fear gigadrowse. I don't like cc3 spell in this deck cause I wanna keep drawing optimizing every still of mana; for this very reason I don't play krosan tusker, faerie trickery,think twice or the fourth copy of muddle. I'm a very fan of arcane denial, i never left my home without 4 in the main and one hidden in my pocket.
So you're saying your metagame in Italy is made up of mostly Black and Blue decks? That's possible, but is probably subject to a lot of change from one to the next, no?
Life gain may seem insignificant against some matchups, but just a few points of life can be the equivalent of another Fog. I feel this is easily worth an extra mana.
If you ran more counterspells, you could actually win counter wars. Just sayin'! In fact, UR drake doesn't run that much countermagic. 2-4 in the maindeck and another 5 or so in the sideboard. Considering how much hand-sculpting we do and how many more counterspells you potentially have access to, this is a fight you can easily win.
3 cmc cards are to be used sparingly, that's for sure. But they are not terrible for the deck. Remember that Krosan Tusker is uncounterable, and that the face-value of Think Twice is still very affordable. It's all about the timing of your spells. It helps a lot that it's all instant speed. I think it's a better slot than Preordain, personally.
Arcane Denial may be the reason you have more problems with Blue decks that you should. Some decks can use those two extra cards better than you can use the counter and cantrip. Drake will be one of those decks. I've recently cut down to 2 Arcane Denials in both the main and sideboard because I found myself boarding them out so often. It's great to have such a flexible counter, but it has a huge, undeniable drawback. Muddle the Mixture, on the other hand, has saved my butt so many times because of the transmute going into exactly what I needed (which somtimes was Arcane Denial). Again, I go back to the concept of card flexibility: Muddle the Mixture has a lot more potential than Arcane Denial, just like a counterspell has more potential than Rofellos's Gift.
I am a fan of control decks and obviuosly this is one of my taste.
Even though I never played this one in particular I´ll try to build it. My only concern is how it performs against fast aggro decks (Stompy, Goblins, etc).
It seems like 12 fog effects are kind of low in order to get you there in terms of milling your opponent as it is a slow win condition and as you don´t interact at all with your opponents creatures they are likely to only need 1 turn of dealing combat damage to kill you in mid/late game.
If you love control, you're going to love this deck! I highly recommend you try it out!
You have absolutely nothing to worry about when it comes to fast aggro decks. Twelve fogs may seem like too little, but it should be just enough. Some even go to ten. Typically, you won't have to start playing Fogs until the fourth or fifth turn against even the fastest Aggro decks. When you add the life gain, you'll have the twelvish turns you need to win the game.
If you don't feel comfortable playing with twelve Fogs, start with more! It takes experience and practice to get the deck right and playing with more fogs allows for a wider safety net. Start with 14, and when you feel like you have a good handle on the deck, go down to 13 or 12.
If you haven't already, go to the first post of this thread and read up on the primer (updated a few days ago). It has most of the common matchups already detailed there, as well as a large pool of suggested cards for you to choose from in order to get your deck going! Happy building! Let me know if you have any more questions and be sure to post your list!
What you need to remember when playing this deck is that you need card advantage to be able to keep up with using cards every turn. Preordain is only a cantrip and does not get you ahead on cards, which is why cards like it should be used sparingly. I have enough of that effect with Brainstorm. Think Twice actually nets you cards, is resistant to countermagic, and its total cost is split up over multiple turns at instant speed, which in my opinion really mitigates the cost. It also triggers Jace's Erasure multiple times as opposed to just once.
If you devoted more space for general answers, you could include more silver bullets. I also prefer Lignify over Curse of Chains because the creature loses it's abilities and attack power, which means it can't be untapped or use effects at instant speed in response to Curse's effect every turn. If you're splashing white, you might as well use Journey to Nowhere.
The quantity of spells shouldn't matter all that much. All you need is mana for a Fog, maybe a Draw spell, and then countermagic in the mid-late game. Sometimes all three at once, but rarely. Most of the time, you only need mana for 1-2 of those things in a single turn.
Sure u tested think twice and preordain as I do. I prefer preordain cause in more valuable in early game when we are more vulnerable. Card advantage coming from accumulate knowledge and words of wisdom is enough to sustain fog every turn in mid late. This obviously IMO. Actually 4 ak, 4 words and 4 preordain(alongside denial on fogs in middle late) are quite satisfying as draw engine.
I've played with the three best cantrips with this deck. I still prefer the raw card advantage that I get from an extra four draw-twos. I've seen Fog decks function with all sorts of draw packages, so I'm not surprised that it works for you. I think the pros of my current package out-weigh its cons. I must say however that Krosan Tusker comes in and out and is the flex-slot for new draw spells. I've found it to be reliable, but I could definitely see two Preordains or Words of Wisdom in its place for anyone building the deck.
Aside that I prefer curse over lignify cause my manabase is strong blu oriented.
Ten Green sources seems like enough to me, especially considering how late Crushers and things usually come down. You should have the mana liberty to do pretty much whatever you want.
Contrarily I think the numbers of draw spell u do in a turn speed up the milling, more spells, more digging, more ak= more graveyard for opponent, so more prediction counting his treats already milled. For the same very reason u play 4 copies of think twice u should play oona's grace too.
Oh, so now we're talking about playing more draw spells specifically. Obviously, the more you draw, the more you mill and find the cards you need. No one is going to disagree with that because it's common sense. What I'm saying is that you need to resolve a certain number of spells in a turn in order to survive and prepare for the next. That of course includes jamming in as many draw spells as possible in the end step in order to get ahead. Having a 3cmc spells that draws cards has a reason for being more expensive. There are advantages to paying more for spells. In my case they sometimes guarantee land, are resistant or immune to countermagic, and don't require other copies in order to be efficient. Two mana draw-2s all carry disadvantages that can be crippling in too large a number.
P.s. When I started pauper i found this blog and fall in love with this deck, and in Italy I'm quite famous as fog player.we are in 3/4 playing this deck in among 2000 active players in the whole country. This is a shame for an amusing deck like this
This is quite nice to hear! I'm very flattered that my writing and the ensued discussions inspired you to play the deck at such a high level. I'm hoping the deck might get more attention one day as well.
Hi everyone. I have picked up this deck and played with it a lot in the last week or so. I have some observations and concerns.
The list I have been running is based on Upkeeps list but I have been trying out a few things.
1. Instead of think twice I have been playing take inventory.
2. I run only 1 words of wisdom for 1 more arcane denial.
3. I run 3 terramorphic and 1 thornwood falls.
Regarding take inventory, it has been great for me. so great that I have been thinking about if there is some spell that could help with getting more AK and TK in the graveyard while drawing, thought scour just cycles so that isnt great. The slots that are up in the air are the tuskers and the word of wisdom (they aren't bad but maybe replaceable). With TK, AK and moment's peace having flashback i feel there should be something we can do here.
Hi Emisun, and welcome to the Turbo Fog thread!
I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating: Any draw spell will yield very similar results, particularly if it's the same converted mana cost. While Take Inventory has a greater ceiling in terms of card advantage, it takes a big hit in terms of flexibility. Playing draw spells at the end of your opponents' turn is the best way to make the most out of your mana every turn. Having to pay for cards at sorcery speed can hinder the strategy a lot when you know you'll likely need to leave up mana on the opponents' turn. Take Inventory is also not as flexible in terms of numbers since it requires you to devote 4 slots to it. If I hasn't happy with Think Twice, I could at least reduce it to 2 slots and play something else just as well.
I'v also mentioned before that Krosan Tusker is somewhat of a flex slot for me. I use it to play any draw spell I feel like at that moment. The fact that it's uncounterable has been pretty good for me when fighting Delver. Think Twice is also a great card against decks with lots of countermagic. My current setup is really built with fighting countermagic in mind.
Words of Wisdom has the best value in terms of card advantage to cost and flexibility, but it has its own obvious disadvantage. Still, it's worth running in some number if only to sideboard out when facing a bad matchup.
Arcane Denial has come back to bite me many times now, and I think 2 is enough for me. It's a great card, but can definitely be dangerous in many scenarios. Run at your own risk.
I've also been contemplating using Thornwood falls in some number, as having mana flexibility is very helpful. I don't think I'd remove fetches for it, though. Expanses are too important in making Brainstorm a good card. I suppose you could try going with 4 Preordain instead and runing a full four Thornwood Falls. I think I'll be cutting cutting two basics and including them myself.
the mana has been a big problem for me. this is a 2-color deck that needs both types of mana on the opponents turn. I have had to take a lot of mulligans because of colorscrew and also lost games to it. My first thought has been to maybe try 1 more thornwood falls either in place of a forest or a terramorphic. terramorphic does thin the deck and I often find myself wanting to draw lands in the late game cause there is always that crucial turn where you want to cast 5 spells on one turn.
It takes some practice and experience in order to play this deck well. Mulliganing and recognizing the power of your opening hand is a big part of it. Usually, you don't want to keep a hand without access to Blue mana, but in some rare cases it's okay. Learn from my mistakes and don't keep a 1-lander with a Brainstorm. I've convinced myself to fall into that trap too many times. It's usually fine to keep a hand with no Fogs and only draw spells and lands. You'll typically be able to draw yourself into fogs easily and get the ball rolling.
Land thinning is a mathematically insignificant illusion that most people fall victim to.Check out this article, it's fascinating.
You could also add some lands to your deck. 20-22 is still perfectly fine, and might give you the edge you want in the late game. Or, you could continue to run Krosan Tusker, who guarantees that precious land.
1. Swapped two scattershots for two faerie macabre. Delver is not as present while drake is.
2. I have also swapped 1 quiet disrepair for 1 hydroblast. quiet is great but two main one board has been enough for me.
You're metagaming. That's totally great! Sideboards are meant to change with what you're expecting. Faerie Trickery is really not a bad card at all, either. Delver still usually forms between 10-20% of the winning metagame, so I would still expect a lot of them.
I have played a lot of matches against izzet blitz and the match-up has changed a little bit. Because of the metagame change with eternal masters and the drake decks there is a lot more pyroblasts. I have found that it is increasingly important to leave up mana for an additional fog instead of a counterspell during ther turn. They are skimping on the dispels nowadays, they would like to counter your fog then when you counter back they pyroblast. if you instead just cast another fog they are dead in the water. Still a favorable matchup but managing mana is always important (another reason why I like thornwood falls).
Against MBC I find the chittering rats to be the most annoying card as you try to churn through your library. If you have an active erasure or a terramorphic on the battlefield it can be a good idea to try to at least get rid of the card you have to put back.
The drake matchup isn't bad but I would like a third faerie macabre for the board. Not sure what to take out though.
the new B/G sacrifice deck everone is playing is an easy matchup. Just be really careful to have a counterspell ready for the rite of consumption. for the fog player it plays out a lot like the affinity matchup.
against rdw and goblins. the usual. fog fog fog, counter only flaring pain (twice).
a big concern for me is graveyard hate to shut off the effeciency of my draw engines. but so far my opponents havent played much and when they play their relic they don't have patience to really blow me out at a crucial time. I think this has to do with the fact that our opponents get a bit restless when playing against us.
delver is a tricky match-up that I think needs to be shored up. the archers are good but sometimes i feel that what i want against them are walls (or rather big butt cheap creatures that come in out of the board and just sit there and allow me to manage my life total a bit more while I draw cards and setup shop so to speak). I mean the counters are the biggest problem therefore devoting spells to actually killing their creatures feels really counter productive in a fog deck.
Eye Candy is an interesting analysis, which makes sense. Keep in mind you can also run Dispel, which is an excellent way to end most counter-wars. I went up to four in my own sideboard because it's that good. Doubling up on Fogs can be a good plan, but you can also expect the odd Flaring Pain against them, which makes it hard to know how to combat them post-board.
Chittering Rats is only good in certain scenarios where you are low on cards. Their window of opportunity with that card is very limited unless they're running more discard (which is bad news for Turbo Fog). Usually, you can just draw the card they made you put back (and more) at the end of their turn, so the effect is very limited. I have used the shuffle-away trick on a few occasions, which actually helps a lot.
If you want the third Faerie Macabre, take out the other Disrepair or a Counterspell.
Any aggro deck will usually be very easy, as you only need to pay attention to a handful of cards in their deck. I'd like to see a list to that deck, though, as it's a strategy I really enjoy!
Turbo Fog plays in the graveyard a lot and it takes experience to navigate hate. It's definitely possible to do it, but there will be times where they have you more or less locked with a Relic of Progenitus and you're not getting the most out of your cards. Try and bait them to sacrifice it and respond with something else, or just get it out of the way with a card you don't care too much for. It really depends on the matchup and the scenario, so it's difficult to help you there.
Delver is a bad matchup, that much is true. Without making huge commitments to fighting it in the sideboard at the expense of other matchups, there is only so much you can do. Play smart, sideboard well. I've won against Delver many times now, and it really has to do with luck and maneuvering your advantages at the right time. Scattershot Archer might seem like a one-dimentional removal card at first glance, it really does a whole lot more than that. Leaving up a Scattershot Archer actually prevents them from using Spellstutter Sprite, which is the best counterspell against our deck. It also prevents them from using Snap as a counterspell by returning the stupid Faerie to their hand and casting it again. Resolving two Archers destroys Insectile Abberations, which leaves them with only three Golems to win with. That's a race we can win.
Turbo Fog is not really about the fogs. It's about blanking your opponents cards. Scattershot Archer blanks 12-16 cards in the Delver deck that were otherwise very difficult to deal with with only fogs.
If you want to run walls, Hidden Spider is certainly not a terrible option, but falls prey to Snap and is almost useless if you draw it in the late game when your opponent already has enough creatures out. Your "wall" would need flying or reach and be not too expensive. It also need 4+ toughness to survive Delver attacks. Lots of spiders would fit that description, like Sporecap Spider, but it might be too expensive. Wall of Tanglecord could also do, but requires a constant investment of G in order to block.
also, do we really have to run 4 erasure? I only ever use one and we can always muddle it up? Maybe go down to 2 or 3 erasure? the card is such a dead draw. it doesnt draw, counter or fog.
The unfortunate part of any game of Magic is having to win. It's definitely possible to win with only a single Jace's Erasure in play (I've done it countless times now). There will be games where a single Erasure isn't enough. They're going to get countered, destroyed, exiled, etc. Other times, you're going to be literally running out of fogs in your entire deck, and the only way you're going to win is by playing three Erasures and a Brainstorm into more draw spells to "combo" them to death. I've had a few games where all four of my Erasures were countered and I could no longer win. When you play a ton of games, these scenarios happen. Oftentimes (like against Delver decks), the best play you can make in the early game is casting a Jace's Erasure on turn two. Having four increases that likelihood.
I would never go below four Erasures, personally, as they serve a very important purpose, even if they are dead draws. I could see perhaps someone going to three, but not lower than that.
The newly spoiled Entourage of Trest seems like it might fit in this deck. Being the Monarch seems very good if you can prevent combat damage consistently.
Yes, I've also been hoping to see a cheap Monarch spell at common in either Blue or Green. Unfortunately, I don't think Entourage of Trest is quite what I'm looking for. Any cheaper creature would do, but a spell would be even better!
I don't think milling yourself is a good thing to base a large portion of your strategy on. I mean, I occasionally do it with Jace's Erasure when I'm in a desperate need of a Moment's Peace or to get bad cards off the top of my library, but those are extreme cases.
I sometimes board out an Erasure when fighting Tron. It's such an easy matchup that you can afford to slow down the deck for more countermagic.
3 mana is sometimes a lot to pay. When it comes to Think Twice, however, I never really feeled pressured by its flashback cost because I already got a card out of it the first time. It's actually a very straightforward card to use, in most cases.
You didn't seem to know about deck thinning effects in your last post, so I thought I would mention it.
Yes, Turbo Fog is extremely good in an unprepared metagame. 2-mans are quite different from Leagues, however. People use 2-mans to test their decks in a competitive environment that doesn't cost them much, and so you'll come across homebrews or people new to their net deck a lot more often. You should try joining a League. I'm pretty sure you'll butt heads with more Delver and Drake there.
My sneaking suspicion with Drake is that it won't live past the September ban list update. This is essentially why I haven't updated the primer to reflect that matchup.
I have run the WUG version of this deck a few times in 2 mans and have had some success, I have made some changed to the lands but not the count, I am really thinking of dropping the three artificer epiphanies for 1 rune red, 1 rune black, 1 think twice/keep watch. Have you ever tried this? I am thinking that I can muddle for the runes if I am up against black/red it should make for an easier win and if I am not I can cycle them away. In theory you should be able to run one of each but I think that might be overkill, and black/red seem like the likely targets. Green would overwhelm my abilities to prevent, blue would likely just counter this since I am likely going to have to transmute looking for it, however if you could get it to stick versus delver would likely be very hard to lose. Thoughts?
I definitely would never run those in the mainboard. Even if you can cycle them, they are terribly inefficient compared to the draw spells you removed.
I don't like Keep Watch, but some players do. It can whiff pretty easily against some matchups and experienced players.
I would also play the circles of protection instead, as they cost generic mana to activate rather than White mana specifically. That's a pretty big deal for a 3-colour deck.
In terms of which to run, Red is definitely a must. Blue is worth running to some degree. Black is good but not overly important in my opinion. White and Green are completely unnecessary because your fogs should cover whatever those colours handle.
If you want to include extras that aren't draw spells or Fogs, try replacing flex slots instead. It may be easier to judge these cards when you keep the base of the deck intact.
Hi again.
I have played through a bunch of leagues. Do you guys find yourselves tight on mana? Between casting fogs, holding up all the counters we have in the sb in order to stop, their flings, kaervaks torches, flickers etc. I find myself struggling for mana quite often. On the other hand sometimes you get flooded and that is equally bad. Not to mention the transmute cost. I was thinking of changing one tusker for one blue cycling land.
also, I will never ever cut brainstorm. the card is great in this deck. It has soo much utility. with erasure, terramorphic, against discard
etc etc.
Hec278> you are running fog over respite? Is that because you are playing white and have more CIPT lands? Im wondering if fog could be the solution to my mana problems.
Since I don't run Tangle in my paper version of the deck, I run two Fogs of my own as well as two Spore Cloud (a worse Tangle). It's certainly not wrong to use Fog and perhaps the utility of being a single mana trumps extra effects like Lifegain. I tend to want more bang for my buck, so I stay away from the original Fog.
If you think you're short on lands, by all means go up to 21. The deck is pretty mana hungry. As you said, Flooding is an issue, so I wouldn't really cut Draw spells. Try going to 1 Quiet Disrepair in the maindeck and adding an extra land.
I hope the leagues are going well for you! Let us know if ever you 5-0! I'd like to see a report.
Latest out of 7 leagues. sorry if spelling and grammar is a bit loose to say the least but I just jotted this down in a hurry.
So I went 3-2. This was my 7th league. I started playing leagues with around 100 play points
and I'm still at 100 play points. I mean that elves match I should have won but some games you
lose to variance and there is nothing you can do about it. For a deck with as much redundancy as this it is
sometimes surprising how bad of draws you can have. My previous league I had 34 cards left in library when I died.
Gues how many of those were lands: 1, Im not kidding 1 land left. How am I supposed too workwith that.
Keep playing! Variance is such a huge part of Magic in general. I remember losing to Stompy of all matchups. In reality I had lost to myself, because I choked on Fogs both games. Thanks for the good read.
For the Teachings matchup, I'm pretty confidant in the way that I board against them, which is -8 Fogs, +4 Counterspell, +3 Dispel, +1 Faerie Trickery. Keeping those Disrepairs is really important to fight just about everything in the deck, but I like to keep the Moment's Peace in order to still keep 4 (plus flashback) in the maindeck to deal with Mulldrifters and Anglers. We essentially become Ug Control in this matchup.
This deck smiles on those who play quickly. Being ahead on the clock is a huge deal.
Sounds like the second Elves deck had a nut-draw game one. Winning on turn 4 with a Bow is insane.
Don't be afraid to sideboard heavily against Hexproof, as sideboarding Flaring Pain seems to go in and out of style.
You might be right but the thing is I am not encountering very much graveyard hate and when I do it is not as bad as I originally thought. My cards still cycle if nothing else and graveyard hate doesnt exactly progress their gameplan. I think that attacking the draw engine of turbofog is a pretty bad strategy. the opponents need to be proactive and back up their threats with counterspells, that is how they win and we lose.
By the way, have you guys played anything against the orzhov deck with the mimic? the matchup is pretty tough. they have both castigate and duress. they also have tons of extort creatures which forces you to keep quiet disrepair in after SB. I have gone 2-1 and 1-2 against them so far but still havent come up with an optimal sideboard plan.
edit: I wish I could start every turn 1 with a "telepathy"
I've never encountered this deck yet. Has it been winning? I don't see it on MTGGoldfish.
Gravehate can be pretty good against us, but you're right that it does slow down their initial gameplan a lot, therefore also being a problem for them. Being able to work around it is key. I agree that your version of the deck is particularly vulnerable to it, but if it pays off...
As for Glasses of Urza, I think it's a bit narrow. You'd probably be much happier with Gitaxian Probe. Keep Brainstorm in your openeners to protect your hand.
I don't think Gitaxian Probe is terribly good in the deck, but if one would want a Peek effect in their flex slots, this is probably the best one (Peek itself is an instant, which is also attractive). Obviously you can spend Blue mana instead of life when keeping your life total high is important so I don't think the card is terribly bad versus Burn cards, just a little worse.
Thanks for sharing the Divinity deck. Very interesting!
I always board in Lignify against Burn, as they often have at least a few bothersome creatures to deal with, although Alchemist is the worst in a while.
In case you never read them, I do have a pretty long list of matchups that includes a sideboarding guide. If ever you have any doubts during a match, you'll most likely find it there and be able to gather some inspiration on how to deal with it.
Awesome! Thank you so much for your hard work with the archetype! It would be really great to have a full report, if you have some time to spare! Please post your list directly here. Even if the lists are very similar, it's always interesting to see the details.
I never felt the need to play Hydroblast, but Thermo-Alchemist is certainly becoming a problem. Most people are still playing 4 Curse of the Pierced Heart as well. Though I don't like to include such narrow cards into the deck, it just may well be necessary to some degree.
I'll have to test that matchup more extensively now that it's undergone such a big change.
Congratulations! I´m about to finish this deck myself and I´ll be playing it for sure.
One thing that comes to mind. Seems to be that almost all pauper decks have some form of GY hate (specially Relics) and as this deck and specially your list uses GY as a way to get CA, how bad is a resolved Relic for you?
One thing that comes to mind. Seems to be that almost all pauper decks have some form of GY hate (specially Relics) and as this deck and specially your list uses GY as a way to get CA, how bad is a resolved Relic for you?
Right now, graveyard hate is very important to fight the dominant deck of the meta, Drake. This isn't always the case, however.
I've fought against Relic a lot myself and while my version of the deck isn't quite as susceptible to the hate as emisun's, it can be rather annoying. It all really depends on at what stage of the game they play it. A turn 1 Relic that can keep the graveyard clean will be really annoying, for example. The way to fight that is to simply play more cards than they can remove, putting them in a position where they want to break it.
The other time it's annoying is when they finally top-deck it in a very tight game where you invested a lot into your graveyard and just lose it all. This can be harder to work around because you don't see it coming.
In general, Relic of Progenitus and most other GY hate is not nearly as bad as people think it is against Turbo Fog. I'd even go as far as saying that boarding it in is sometimes a mistake. People usually end up putting it in because they have so many dead cards in their maindeck to begin with that they have to replace it with something a least a little relevant.
Have you ever tried lat-nam's legacy? I know somewhere you mentioned that you tried see beyond for a while. The instant speed is pretty alluring, there are some small advatnages to drawing during the next turn as well.
I've contemplated the card heavily before, but never actually used it. The fact that you have to put a card back before you draw the cards is the biggest downside. Drawing the cards immediately is obviously better as well. All in all, the instant speed doesn't seem worth the slow draw and having to choose a card to put back before you draw. See Beyond is definitely the better card (and even then, it's not that great).
Take Down is not necessarily a worse card than Aerial Volley. You need to consider that this card can kill a Spire Golem. The only time Take Down is worse is when you want to kill a Delver and a faerie (which is a very common scenario). In any other situation, Take Down kills more creatures at once and also hits a larger variety of them.
As for the reach wall: as long as these walls only have 0 power, I won't even consider them as a good sideboard card against Delver. They will eventually outnumber the wall and make it practically meaningless. if it had been a 1/4, it might have been interesting.
First things first, obviously the sideboard isn't finished. I'm not sure what exactly to put in the remaining slots. I think that I need more card draw. What I'm considering right now is - 2 Thought Scour, - 2 lands (maybe one each Forest and Island?), + 4 Accumulated Knowledge. And maybe ditch the last two copies of Thought Scour in favor of 2 Preordain. What do you guys think? I've lost to three Delver decks (1 Mono-U, 2 R/U) and once to burn. I kind of folded to it easily, although the Delver decks were a little closer.
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So you're saying your metagame in Italy is made up of mostly Black and Blue decks? That's possible, but is probably subject to a lot of change from one to the next, no?
Life gain may seem insignificant against some matchups, but just a few points of life can be the equivalent of another Fog. I feel this is easily worth an extra mana.
If you ran more counterspells, you could actually win counter wars. Just sayin'!
3 cmc cards are to be used sparingly, that's for sure. But they are not terrible for the deck. Remember that Krosan Tusker is uncounterable, and that the face-value of Think Twice is still very affordable. It's all about the timing of your spells. It helps a lot that it's all instant speed. I think it's a better slot than Preordain, personally.
Arcane Denial may be the reason you have more problems with Blue decks that you should. Some decks can use those two extra cards better than you can use the counter and cantrip. Drake will be one of those decks. I've recently cut down to 2 Arcane Denials in both the main and sideboard because I found myself boarding them out so often. It's great to have such a flexible counter, but it has a huge, undeniable drawback. Muddle the Mixture, on the other hand, has saved my butt so many times because of the transmute going into exactly what I needed (which somtimes was Arcane Denial). Again, I go back to the concept of card flexibility: Muddle the Mixture has a lot more potential than Arcane Denial, just like a counterspell has more potential than Rofellos's Gift.
If you love control, you're going to love this deck! I highly recommend you try it out!
You have absolutely nothing to worry about when it comes to fast aggro decks. Twelve fogs may seem like too little, but it should be just enough. Some even go to ten. Typically, you won't have to start playing Fogs until the fourth or fifth turn against even the fastest Aggro decks. When you add the life gain, you'll have the twelvish turns you need to win the game.
If you don't feel comfortable playing with twelve Fogs, start with more! It takes experience and practice to get the deck right and playing with more fogs allows for a wider safety net. Start with 14, and when you feel like you have a good handle on the deck, go down to 13 or 12.
If you haven't already, go to the first post of this thread and read up on the primer (updated a few days ago). It has most of the common matchups already detailed there, as well as a large pool of suggested cards for you to choose from in order to get your deck going! Happy building! Let me know if you have any more questions and be sure to post your list!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
If you devoted more space for general answers, you could include more silver bullets. I also prefer Lignify over Curse of Chains because the creature loses it's abilities and attack power, which means it can't be untapped or use effects at instant speed in response to Curse's effect every turn. If you're splashing white, you might as well use Journey to Nowhere.
The quantity of spells shouldn't matter all that much. All you need is mana for a Fog, maybe a Draw spell, and then countermagic in the mid-late game. Sometimes all three at once, but rarely. Most of the time, you only need mana for 1-2 of those things in a single turn.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I've played with the three best cantrips with this deck. I still prefer the raw card advantage that I get from an extra four draw-twos. I've seen Fog decks function with all sorts of draw packages, so I'm not surprised that it works for you. I think the pros of my current package out-weigh its cons. I must say however that Krosan Tusker comes in and out and is the flex-slot for new draw spells. I've found it to be reliable, but I could definitely see two Preordains or Words of Wisdom in its place for anyone building the deck.
Ten Green sources seems like enough to me, especially considering how late Crushers and things usually come down. You should have the mana liberty to do pretty much whatever you want.
Oh, so now we're talking about playing more draw spells specifically. Obviously, the more you draw, the more you mill and find the cards you need. No one is going to disagree with that because it's common sense. What I'm saying is that you need to resolve a certain number of spells in a turn in order to survive and prepare for the next. That of course includes jamming in as many draw spells as possible in the end step in order to get ahead. Having a 3cmc spells that draws cards has a reason for being more expensive. There are advantages to paying more for spells. In my case they sometimes guarantee land, are resistant or immune to countermagic, and don't require other copies in order to be efficient. Two mana draw-2s all carry disadvantages that can be crippling in too large a number.
This is quite nice to hear! I'm very flattered that my writing and the ensued discussions inspired you to play the deck at such a high level. I'm hoping the deck might get more attention one day as well.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Hi Emisun, and welcome to the Turbo Fog thread!
I've mentioned this before, but it bears repeating: Any draw spell will yield very similar results, particularly if it's the same converted mana cost. While Take Inventory has a greater ceiling in terms of card advantage, it takes a big hit in terms of flexibility. Playing draw spells at the end of your opponents' turn is the best way to make the most out of your mana every turn. Having to pay for cards at sorcery speed can hinder the strategy a lot when you know you'll likely need to leave up mana on the opponents' turn. Take Inventory is also not as flexible in terms of numbers since it requires you to devote 4 slots to it. If I hasn't happy with Think Twice, I could at least reduce it to 2 slots and play something else just as well.
I'v also mentioned before that Krosan Tusker is somewhat of a flex slot for me. I use it to play any draw spell I feel like at that moment. The fact that it's uncounterable has been pretty good for me when fighting Delver. Think Twice is also a great card against decks with lots of countermagic. My current setup is really built with fighting countermagic in mind.
Words of Wisdom has the best value in terms of card advantage to cost and flexibility, but it has its own obvious disadvantage. Still, it's worth running in some number if only to sideboard out when facing a bad matchup.
Arcane Denial has come back to bite me many times now, and I think 2 is enough for me. It's a great card, but can definitely be dangerous in many scenarios. Run at your own risk.
I've also been contemplating using Thornwood falls in some number, as having mana flexibility is very helpful. I don't think I'd remove fetches for it, though. Expanses are too important in making Brainstorm a good card. I suppose you could try going with 4 Preordain instead and runing a full four Thornwood Falls. I think I'll be cutting cutting two basics and including them myself.
It takes some practice and experience in order to play this deck well. Mulliganing and recognizing the power of your opening hand is a big part of it. Usually, you don't want to keep a hand without access to Blue mana, but in some rare cases it's okay. Learn from my mistakes and don't keep a 1-lander with a Brainstorm. I've convinced myself to fall into that trap too many times. It's usually fine to keep a hand with no Fogs and only draw spells and lands. You'll typically be able to draw yourself into fogs easily and get the ball rolling.
Land thinning is a mathematically insignificant illusion that most people fall victim to.Check out this article, it's fascinating.
You could also add some lands to your deck. 20-22 is still perfectly fine, and might give you the edge you want in the late game. Or, you could continue to run Krosan Tusker, who guarantees that precious land.
You're metagaming. That's totally great! Sideboards are meant to change with what you're expecting. Faerie Trickery is really not a bad card at all, either. Delver still usually forms between 10-20% of the winning metagame, so I would still expect a lot of them.
Eye Candy is an interesting analysis, which makes sense. Keep in mind you can also run Dispel, which is an excellent way to end most counter-wars. I went up to four in my own sideboard because it's that good. Doubling up on Fogs can be a good plan, but you can also expect the odd Flaring Pain against them, which makes it hard to know how to combat them post-board.
Chittering Rats is only good in certain scenarios where you are low on cards. Their window of opportunity with that card is very limited unless they're running more discard (which is bad news for Turbo Fog). Usually, you can just draw the card they made you put back (and more) at the end of their turn, so the effect is very limited. I have used the shuffle-away trick on a few occasions, which actually helps a lot.
If you want the third Faerie Macabre, take out the other Disrepair or a Counterspell.
Any aggro deck will usually be very easy, as you only need to pay attention to a handful of cards in their deck. I'd like to see a list to that deck, though, as it's a strategy I really enjoy!
Turbo Fog plays in the graveyard a lot and it takes experience to navigate hate. It's definitely possible to do it, but there will be times where they have you more or less locked with a Relic of Progenitus and you're not getting the most out of your cards. Try and bait them to sacrifice it and respond with something else, or just get it out of the way with a card you don't care too much for. It really depends on the matchup and the scenario, so it's difficult to help you there.
Delver is a bad matchup, that much is true. Without making huge commitments to fighting it in the sideboard at the expense of other matchups, there is only so much you can do. Play smart, sideboard well. I've won against Delver many times now, and it really has to do with luck and maneuvering your advantages at the right time. Scattershot Archer might seem like a one-dimentional removal card at first glance, it really does a whole lot more than that. Leaving up a Scattershot Archer actually prevents them from using Spellstutter Sprite, which is the best counterspell against our deck. It also prevents them from using Snap as a counterspell by returning the stupid Faerie to their hand and casting it again. Resolving two Archers destroys Insectile Abberations, which leaves them with only three Golems to win with. That's a race we can win.
Turbo Fog is not really about the fogs. It's about blanking your opponents cards. Scattershot Archer blanks 12-16 cards in the Delver deck that were otherwise very difficult to deal with with only fogs.
If you want to run walls, Hidden Spider is certainly not a terrible option, but falls prey to Snap and is almost useless if you draw it in the late game when your opponent already has enough creatures out. Your "wall" would need flying or reach and be not too expensive. It also need 4+ toughness to survive Delver attacks. Lots of spiders would fit that description, like Sporecap Spider, but it might be too expensive. Wall of Tanglecord could also do, but requires a constant investment of G in order to block.
The unfortunate part of any game of Magic is having to win. It's definitely possible to win with only a single Jace's Erasure in play (I've done it countless times now). There will be games where a single Erasure isn't enough. They're going to get countered, destroyed, exiled, etc. Other times, you're going to be literally running out of fogs in your entire deck, and the only way you're going to win is by playing three Erasures and a Brainstorm into more draw spells to "combo" them to death. I've had a few games where all four of my Erasures were countered and I could no longer win. When you play a ton of games, these scenarios happen. Oftentimes (like against Delver decks), the best play you can make in the early game is casting a Jace's Erasure on turn two. Having four increases that likelihood.
I would never go below four Erasures, personally, as they serve a very important purpose, even if they are dead draws. I could see perhaps someone going to three, but not lower than that.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I sometimes board out an Erasure when fighting Tron. It's such an easy matchup that you can afford to slow down the deck for more countermagic.
3 mana is sometimes a lot to pay. When it comes to Think Twice, however, I never really feeled pressured by its flashback cost because I already got a card out of it the first time. It's actually a very straightforward card to use, in most cases.
You didn't seem to know about deck thinning effects in your last post, so I thought I would mention it.
Yes, Turbo Fog is extremely good in an unprepared metagame. 2-mans are quite different from Leagues, however. People use 2-mans to test their decks in a competitive environment that doesn't cost them much, and so you'll come across homebrews or people new to their net deck a lot more often. You should try joining a League. I'm pretty sure you'll butt heads with more Delver and Drake there.
My sneaking suspicion with Drake is that it won't live past the September ban list update. This is essentially why I haven't updated the primer to reflect that matchup.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I don't like Keep Watch, but some players do. It can whiff pretty easily against some matchups and experienced players.
I would also play the circles of protection instead, as they cost generic mana to activate rather than White mana specifically. That's a pretty big deal for a 3-colour deck.
In terms of which to run, Red is definitely a must. Blue is worth running to some degree. Black is good but not overly important in my opinion. White and Green are completely unnecessary because your fogs should cover whatever those colours handle.
If you want to include extras that aren't draw spells or Fogs, try replacing flex slots instead. It may be easier to judge these cards when you keep the base of the deck intact.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Since I don't run Tangle in my paper version of the deck, I run two Fogs of my own as well as two Spore Cloud (a worse Tangle). It's certainly not wrong to use Fog and perhaps the utility of being a single mana trumps extra effects like Lifegain. I tend to want more bang for my buck, so I stay away from the original Fog.
If you think you're short on lands, by all means go up to 21. The deck is pretty mana hungry. As you said, Flooding is an issue, so I wouldn't really cut Draw spells. Try going to 1 Quiet Disrepair in the maindeck and adding an extra land.
I hope the leagues are going well for you! Let us know if ever you 5-0! I'd like to see a report.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Keep playing! Variance is such a huge part of Magic in general. I remember losing to Stompy of all matchups. In reality I had lost to myself, because I choked on Fogs both games. Thanks for the good read.
For the Teachings matchup, I'm pretty confidant in the way that I board against them, which is -8 Fogs, +4 Counterspell, +3 Dispel, +1 Faerie Trickery. Keeping those Disrepairs is really important to fight just about everything in the deck, but I like to keep the Moment's Peace in order to still keep 4 (plus flashback) in the maindeck to deal with Mulldrifters and Anglers. We essentially become Ug Control in this matchup.
This deck smiles on those who play quickly. Being ahead on the clock is a huge deal.
Sounds like the second Elves deck had a nut-draw game one. Winning on turn 4 with a Bow is insane.
Don't be afraid to sideboard heavily against Hexproof, as sideboarding Flaring Pain seems to go in and out of style.
I've never encountered this deck yet. Has it been winning? I don't see it on MTGGoldfish.
Gravehate can be pretty good against us, but you're right that it does slow down their initial gameplan a lot, therefore also being a problem for them. Being able to work around it is key. I agree that your version of the deck is particularly vulnerable to it, but if it pays off...
As for Glasses of Urza, I think it's a bit narrow. You'd probably be much happier with Gitaxian Probe. Keep Brainstorm in your openeners to protect your hand.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I always board in Lignify against Burn, as they often have at least a few bothersome creatures to deal with, although Alchemist is the worst in a while.
In case you never read them, I do have a pretty long list of matchups that includes a sideboarding guide. If ever you have any doubts during a match, you'll most likely find it there and be able to gather some inspiration on how to deal with it.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Congratulations!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I'll have to test that matchup more extensively now that it's undergone such a big change.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
One thing that comes to mind. Seems to be that almost all pauper decks have some form of GY hate (specially Relics) and as this deck and specially your list uses GY as a way to get CA, how bad is a resolved Relic for you?
Right now, graveyard hate is very important to fight the dominant deck of the meta, Drake. This isn't always the case, however.
I've fought against Relic a lot myself and while my version of the deck isn't quite as susceptible to the hate as emisun's, it can be rather annoying. It all really depends on at what stage of the game they play it. A turn 1 Relic that can keep the graveyard clean will be really annoying, for example. The way to fight that is to simply play more cards than they can remove, putting them in a position where they want to break it.
The other time it's annoying is when they finally top-deck it in a very tight game where you invested a lot into your graveyard and just lose it all. This can be harder to work around because you don't see it coming.
In general, Relic of Progenitus and most other GY hate is not nearly as bad as people think it is against Turbo Fog. I'd even go as far as saying that boarding it in is sometimes a mistake. People usually end up putting it in because they have so many dead cards in their maindeck to begin with that they have to replace it with something a least a little relevant.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I've contemplated the card heavily before, but never actually used it. The fact that you have to put a card back before you draw the cards is the biggest downside. Drawing the cards immediately is obviously better as well. All in all, the instant speed doesn't seem worth the slow draw and having to choose a card to put back before you draw. See Beyond is definitely the better card (and even then, it's not that great).
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
As for the reach wall: as long as these walls only have 0 power, I won't even consider them as a good sideboard card against Delver. They will eventually outnumber the wall and make it practically meaningless. if it had been a 1/4, it might have been interesting.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thought Scour
4 Words of Wisdom
Counters:
4 Counterspell
2 Muddle the Mixture
Fogs:
4 Respite
4 Moment's Peace
4 Tangle
4 Jace's Erasure
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Thornwood Falls
10 Island
4 Forest
2 Muddle the Mixture
4 Dispel
2 Relic of Progenitus
First things first, obviously the sideboard isn't finished. I'm not sure what exactly to put in the remaining slots. I think that I need more card draw. What I'm considering right now is - 2 Thought Scour, - 2 lands (maybe one each Forest and Island?), + 4 Accumulated Knowledge. And maybe ditch the last two copies of Thought Scour in favor of 2 Preordain. What do you guys think? I've lost to three Delver decks (1 Mono-U, 2 R/U) and once to burn. I kind of folded to it easily, although the Delver decks were a little closer.