You mentioned it wins by running the opp. out of a clock, so I wonder if the deck would work in paper. I imagine you can finish (and hopefully win) at least one game in a paper tourney with this, but if you lose G1, time is working against you since you're the slower deck and the opponent can happily play the durdle game till he wins the entire match 1-0. Since I play paper, I'm a bit skeptical, but perhaps that's unwarranted since I haven't actually played it.
Also as Hec mentioned, it seems yard-dependent to a scary degree, but if you're the only graveyard deck in a meta perhaps people will not pack hate.
My statement about winning on the clock wasn't very serious. From a cursory perspective, it seems like it has almost no other way of winning. Looking more deeply into the workings of the deck, it has a very solid (albeit slow) win condition.
Yes, this deck seems incredibly weak to almost every form of graveyard hate out there.
I test the scrounger fog casually yesterday. Regardless the level of skill u need the very firsts turns are insane. Even stompy can beat u Dow with just 8 main deck fogs. Also your keycard(puzzle) is a cc3 spell and and u depend from the flashback of deep(3 life each) for keep your hand full
This is exactly the opposite of what I mean by "requiring skill". Just playing it for an afternoon likely won't get you anywhere. This deck will likely take an enormous amount of fineness in order to pilot properly. Simply testing it out for a few games without understanding the intricacies won't show you what it's truly capable of, in my opinion. A 5-0 record indicates there's more to it. Maybe it was luck...
As for the lower Fog count, it depends on what you're comfortable with and used to playing. Pierakor, if I'm not mistaken, played with 8 (+4) fogs in his maindeck and didn't do terribly. I think it's an adjustment, certainly, and it means you will occasionally run out of fogs versus a pure aggro deck, but in general I think it's certainly possible to get away with it more often than not.
So, Ash Barrens?
+ Resets the topdeck after Brainstorm
+ Can immediately provide mana
+ Can fix mana
- Needs mana to fetch, so can't be first (colored) land in game
Starting with the UG manabase in the opener, we have effectively 11 Green sources, 13 Blue sources, 4 CIPT lands, and 4 topdeck resets.
I'm considering something like -2 Forest, -1 Island, -4 Terramorphic Expanse, +4 Ash Barrens, +3 Thornwood Falls.
This gives us 12 Green sources, 15 Blue Sources, 3 CIPT lands, 4 topdeck resets, and 3 life.
Not sure if something like this is worth pursuing. Has anyone tried Barrens in the deck yet?
Already once I had an opener with nothing but Ash Barrens, so I definitely had to mull that. Maybe 3ish is the right number after all. I'm been trying to see how often I can not fetch with Ash Barrens though. If we've already stabilized with colors we can treat that as a Wastes with no loss of mana building.
Just curious, why the disparity in artifact land (1 vs 4)? I take it CoP: Blue is for Delver?
Wall of Tanglecord might be better than Skygate. You have to pay for the Reach on Tanglecord, but that 6 toughness is hard to deal with and can even block Gurmag Angler for days!
Piloted the deck in a few casual games the other day and it worked out nicely! I'm still using the peasant isochron scepter version. Two things have me intrigued and I want to try it out: The battlefield scrounger tech (think it can be good as a secondary win con and inevitability when combined with the early scepter lock) and the Ash Barrens!
Already once I had an opener with nothing but Ash Barrens, so I definitely had to mull that
Good to see you active in the thread Curby! Why was this such a definitive mull? An opener with three barrens could go:
t1 Ash Barrens, cycle AB#2 EOT
t2 Depending on what land you went for you can fog or play Brainstorm + cycle AB#3 EOT
t3 Now you have 2 colors and a colorless mana. Bad with lots of UU but, it occurs to me now, good with ravnica bounce duals to recover an early Ash Barrens and cycle it!
So I'm thinking of updating my Bant mana base, because like Bant Panorama, Ash Barrens goes so well with Isochron Scepter.
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Wall of Tanglecord might be better than Skygate. You have to pay for the Reach on Tanglecord, but that 6 toughness is hard to deal with and can even block Gurmag Angler for days!
I agree that paying for the Wall of Tanglecord reach every turn can be really annoying. Consulate Skygate actually serves its purpose quite well because the matches where you would board it in don't have creatures with power greater than four. Blocking Insectile Abberations or Ninjas seems pretty sweet and it fits well into the deck at two mana. I think it's a legitimate sideboard card. Now if only it had just one power...
I think it should work. 4 bouncelands is probably too many, though. Considering that you probably won't play your ash barrens very often for their colourless side, you don't want to go overboard and tax your mana. I'd maybe cut to 2 Simic, 1 Azorious.
Alright, I've brewed a bit with Scrounger and I'm not very impressed. Maybe he's better in a straight pauper list, but I feel he accomplished on turn 10+ what Isochron Scepter already does on turn 4. I'm inclined to think that if you can make it to the "pile building phase", you have already won anyway and the cute trick is moot.
What has surprised me however is Pulse of Murasa! That card is really solid on its own. I've often found Quiet Disrepair to be a bit slow as a tutor target. You muddle for it on turn 3, drop it on turn 4 and start gaining life on turn 5. And if you need to do that, you probably also need to fog on turn 4, which messes with my main plan of dropping Scepter on turn 4. Which means I need to have 2 fogs, one on turn 4 and one to imprint on turn 5... which gets really constrained considering I'm putting all my effort into getting that Disrepair.
Enter 3x Pulse of Murasa instead. You play it on turn 3, getting back a panorama or ash barrens, you gain a solid amount of life and ensure your turn 4 land drop for isochron (2 mana extra for counter back-up or activation). Nice! And with 3 in the deck, you can realistically dig for it on turn 2 with Impulse/Brainstorm if you really need it. Late game, it is golden with Constant Mists too. It is even narrow graveyard hate against reanimator type decks for example! Current list:
I've moved away from SB Incinerate as an alt win con and now run Raise the Alarm in the main instead, to produce a token swarm against mill resistant decks. It is also a good early "fog" or "removal" to stall until you get Isochron on-line. Into the Roil replaces the disenchant part of quiet disrepair (especially with counter follow up) and it's a solid cantrip and imprint card too.
Sideboard is being reworked, but will definitely include 4th Vision Charm and possibly 4th Pulse of Murasa too.
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So I am probably missing something here, but why Cutter? Saving the mana doesn't seem that important. And would you actually take out Lignify or Archers for it? After all, my sig.
Delver is never going to be a good matchup. You need to realize that and do what you can in your sideboard without compromising your other matchups.
Skyshroud Cutter seems like a bad idea. It only really works against Ninja of the Deep Hours and then it only works after they've already hit you once with it.
Skyrshroud Archer is turning out to be almost as good as Scattershot. I start to Fog early against Delver in order to minimize the effects of ninja. If I see multiple archers in a game, I can begin to gang-block the ninjas.
Urdjur, sounds like Pulse of Murasa fits your deck really well! I also really like seeing Raise the Alarm in your deck, as it makes way more sense than a random burn spell (even if it would be faster). Good changes all around, it seems! Let me know how it does in testing.
So, little report from my first time playing this awesome deck that I´ve been wanting to try in paper for so much! (As a side note, at my LGS we use MTGO rules)
As expected, an easy matchup. Just transmute when ran out of fog effects and go mill till win.
Round 2 vs Affi 0-2
So, here things get more interesting. Game 1 he had a slow hand so I proceed to develop my board with 2 jace´s and hitting land drops. After a couple of draw spells on both sides he get´s to stablish an offense able to kill me but I´m with enough fog spells in my hand for days. I´m at 4 life but he has all his Galvanics in the yard, only have to be awere of fling, since I have my clock on with my jaces. A few turns later, he flings me x 2 and I only have 1 counter in hand.
Game 2 I had 2 Counterspell, 1 Dispel and Circle red from the sideboard but don´t remember what I sided out for. Things are going well since I transmuted for my circle turn 3 and start negating his burn spells while also having 2 fogs in hand. Sadly, a few turns later he dispeled my fog followed by a muddle from my side and a pyroblast from his. GG, had no more permition or lands to pay for another fog.
Round 3 2-1 vs MBC
Game 1 developed very well for me. Being able to deploy 2 early erasure´s combined with some draw spells, fogs and permition for the only things I couldn´t beat (Gary and Corrupt).It was kind of close, but managed to outrace him with my jace´s.
Game 2 had a late forest on table and already took a bunch of damage from creatures that I was dead to anything (even to a Sing in Blood or Witches activation).
Game 3 Circle paid his slot in the sideboard since MBC can´t deal with it when it´s in play and that allowed me to side 6 fog spells for more permision and lifegain, as a way to combat his only real way to beat me dealing no combat damage.
As my sideboard options and little splash of white I found that it never harmed my curve as I almost never drew it and with 6 fetches, when you side in white cards, you can find it pretty easily. The main reason for doing this was Burn. Before going to my LGS played a few solo games to test this MU and it was REALLY REALLY BAD. Even post board games, with 4 Disrepairs I found myself been overwhelmed by Curse and Thermo´s constant ping damage even with 2 Disrepairs in play. And that also enabled the circle black, wich allowed me to set the above mentioned plan. Also I have 2, even though you only need 1 you can get recked from an early Duress or by you not being abble to counter it/hide it with brainstorm.
Overall I really liked the deck and it was a blast to play (at least for me! Don´t know for my opponents. I guess it´s too much antimagic? Lol). Didn´t expect the affi MU to be that hard (even thow it allways felt winable) but the combination of burn + big fast creatures + permision is an uphill battle.
Thanks for the writeup, it was a good read and a nice finish.
If affinity gets the right draws, it can be pretty tough to beat, especially if it gets aggressive from the start.
If you are going to splash White, I would consider an extra CoP: Red in the sideboard, as it comes in handy in many matchups. Disrepairs were good enough at a time where Thermo-Alchemist didn't exist. Now, it needs to be backed up with lots of countermagic or other cards. I see you're running Rest for the Weary. Consider using Lignify. It handles Thermo-Alchemist very well on top of being useful against Tron and other fringe matchups. I'm currently considering running a second copy in my flex-slot in the sideboard.
Burn is definitely not an unwinnable matchup. Quiet Disrepair WILL win you games. My current sideboard basically turns my deck into an MUC deck with a green splash for lifegain; sounds pretty good against Burn (and it is). It all depends on how fast you can dish out a Disrepair and how much countermagic you draw (or CoPs). It also takes lots of practice to get this matchup down.
Devoting 2 slots just to fight MBC seems excessive. It's currently not a presence in the metagame (Turbo Fog churns in as many 5-0s as MBC in the online metagame, currently). Even without Circles, the matchup is decent enough. A single fetchable circle would likely be enough, in my opinion.
As a side-note: I've been recording some of my matches online and embedding them in the matchups section. There's currently one for Affinity, Black Aggro, Stompy, Tron, Tortured Existence and Domain Zoo. Check them out!
EDIT: Another sidenote for Burn: Jace's Erasure is often a very slow win condition. Krosan Tusker, however, is not! It's been a few games now where a resolved Krosan Tusker actually spells trouble for Burn players who are now on a 4 turn clock, forcing them to hold back blockers and even spend two burn spells just to deal with the guy.
Thanks for the post! I remember that there was some site that had a meta breakdown and top-xx decklists for last year's paupergeddon. Please post a link (here or in main forum) if you see something like that come up.
With the announcement of monarch cards for mtgo, would any of them be run? Palace Sentinels seems like it could have a place and a reason to splash white.
What would really make this deck want Monarch would be a 2-mana spell, ideally not a creature. Unfortunately, there weren't any Monarch cards at common that costed less than three, making it a bit awkward to run. Palace Sentinels, while decent, is just too much mana to pay.
If the Delver match up is an auto loss, then I think that dedicating 8 sideboard slots vs. Delver is reasonable considering that it is the most played deck in the Pauper meta.
I'm actually considering 4 Skyshroud Archer and 4 Netcaster Spider to completely shut down Delver aggro once they hit the table.
Hi Kyojin! Welcome to MTGS and the Pauper Forums! We're always happy to see some interest in the deck! Thanks for your interest in my Youtube videos, too! I really appreciate your comments and attention.
When it comes to Delver, we're still figuring out how best to fight it. I've just recently discovered that Ninja of the Deep Hours is probably the biggest problem card in the matchup, beyond even Spellstutter Sprite. This has helped my in-game decision-making.
There is the issue of over-boarding for the matchup, as well. Having 8 cards that don't interact with the rest of the strategy all that well can be a huge problem. I'm discovering that even taking out 4 draw spells has a dramatic difference on how the deck plays, let alone fogs or counters. I think boarding in that many cards might dilute the strategy too much and possibly weaken the deck.
I know that Pierakor tried boarding 8-10 cards for the Delver matchup and discovered diminishing returns in the results.
For your choice of sideboard tech, I'm not sold on Netcaster Spider. The 3-cc is pretty steep against Delver, when you consider that they could counter it or bounce it and eat your whole turn. It also only trades with Insectile Aberrations. It could also be pretty tricky to play in conjunction with Fogs in later turns. I tried Squall for a while and dropped it because of the mana cost. Hidden Spider might not be so bad, and Aerial Volley has proven to be an excellent anti-Delver card.
Some further notes on my recent Delver sidebaording:
I sideboarded like this recently: -2 Words of Wisdom, -2 Arcane Denial, -4 Accumulated Knowledge, -2 Quiet Disrepair, +4 Scattershot Archer, +1 Skyshroud Archer +2 Dispel, +3 Counterspell. This has been working better than anything else I've tried so far, but it's still not good enough. I noticed that I ran out of cards quickly in post games even with an archer lock. This is what killed me. I'm finding that I need my card advantage to keep up in order to keep finding Fogs. Double-blocking with archers just doesn't do it against Ninjas.
Thinking about it, I think in the future I'll be taking out some mix of Brainstorm and Muddle the Mixture, or maybe just Brainstorms. Delver draws enough cards on its own that Brainstorm "catching up" on mill doesn't really matter and it doesn't offer card advantage like AK does.
Even with the perfect sb of 4 Hidden Spider 4 Scattershot Archer 4 Dispel it would still only be 50-50 after boarding. I believe it's best to just ignore it tbh. I am not really playing anymore, partly because Delver is so popular but when I was playing Delver was also popular and my winrate vs Delver literally 0%. But I was still winning overall at an amazing rate. So imo just make sure you beat the other decks and when you face Delver take the loss, the MU is not salvageable in my experience.
This is yet another reason not to over-board versus Delver.
I can't just ignore it, however. My games versus Delver are improving gradually because I'm constantly optimizing my lines of play against it. I think that one day, we'll be able to stand a chance against Delver, even though it will never be a great matchup. I've 2-0'd a few times against it now, believe it or not. Most of the time, however, it's a 0-2 or a 1-2 loss. Post-board games are always really close. I feel like I just need a little extra kick to tip this matchup.
I'm considering making some big changes to my deck. I think Respite has been under-performing. I think I'd like to switch to something along the lines of what Hec278 is running, with Fogs instead. This would also give me the incentive to run a couple Thornwood Falls, which has many upsides. Mana flexibility would be really useful for this deck, and the lifegain would somewhat counteract the lack of Respite lifegain, even being better than Respite in matchups like Burn. Fog would allow me to play a tighter game in the early turns against aggressive decks. The only downside I see to this is that it is more susceptible to Spellstutter Sprite and obviously running more tap-lands can be dangerous.
Any thoughts on this?
I've also been very unhappy with the Burn matchup. Since the printing of Thermo-Alchemist, this matchup has gotten much worse. I'm considering going down a single Fog and moving a Counterspell to the maindeck and making space for a second Lignify, which would also help against Tron, which is a popular deck right now.
Hi Kyojin! Welcome to MTGS and the Pauper Forums! We're always happy to see some interest in the deck! Thanks for your interest in my Youtube videos, too! I really appreciate your comments and attention.
When it comes to Delver, we're still figuring out how best to fight it. I've just recently discovered that Ninja of the Deep Hours is probably the biggest problem card in the matchup, beyond even Spellstutter Sprite. This has helped my in-game decision-making.
There is the issue of over-boarding for the matchup, as well. Having 8 cards that don't interact with the rest of the strategy all that well can be a huge problem. I'm discovering that even taking out 4 draw spells has a dramatic difference on how the deck plays, let alone fogs or counters. I think boarding in that many cards might dilute the strategy too much and possibly weaken the deck.
I know that Pierakor tried boarding 8-10 cards for the Delver matchup and discovered diminishing returns in the results.
For your choice of sideboard tech, I'm not sold on Netcaster Spider. The 3-cc is pretty steep against Delver, when you consider that they could counter it or bounce it and eat your whole turn. It also only trades with Insectile Aberrations. It could also be pretty tricky to play in conjunction with Fogs in later turns. I tried Squall for a while and dropped it because of the mana cost. Hidden Spider might not be so bad, and Aerial Volley has proven to be an excellent anti-Delver card.
Some further notes on my recent Delver sidebaording:
I sideboarded like this recently: -2 Words of Wisdom, -2 Arcane Denial, -4 Accumulated Knowledge, -2 Quiet Disrepair, +4 Scattershot Archer, +1 Skyshroud Archer +2 Dispel, +3 Counterspell. This has been working better than anything else I've tried so far, but it's still not good enough. I noticed that I ran out of cards quickly in post games even with an archer lock. This is what killed me. I'm finding that I need my card advantage to keep up in order to keep finding Fogs. Double-blocking with archers just doesn't do it against Ninjas.
Thinking about it, I think in the future I'll be taking out some mix of Brainstorm and Muddle the Mixture, or maybe just Brainstorms. Delver draws enough cards on its own that Brainstorm "catching up" on mill doesn't really matter and it doesn't offer card advantage like AK does.
My boarding will likely look something more like this: -2 Words of Wisdom, -2 Arcane Denial, -4 Brainstorm, -2 Quiet Disrepair, +4 Scattershot Archer, +1 Skyshroud Archer +2 Dispel, +3 Counterspell. Hopefully this will improve the matchup. I've been needing a breakthrough for a while, if it's even possible.
Sorry for the long message. Delver sideboarding is such a complicated subject. I hope you found some useful information in there somewhere!
Thanks for the warm welcome! I did enjoy watching your videos and seeing how much work you put into improving the Turbo Fog archetype.
Post-board they mostly bring in non-creature counters such as Dispel and board-out bounce spells anyway, so there's a decent chance that the spider will resolve. I'd probably be willing to board-out even a couple of fog spells because the Netcaster Spider - Skyshroud Archer combo alone will enable permanent board control.
What's your take on cutting Muddle the Mixture down to 2 to open up another sideboard slot? And also Courier's Capsule as alternative draw engine?
I've seen many Delver players keep their Snaps in their deck because of how they interact with Spellstutter Sprite. Bounce spells can definitely be bad for us as well. The Delver player could easily not board and still beat us effectively, though having cheaper countermagic is definitely something they'd side in. I've also been hosed by Aura Flux a couple times.
re: Muddle the Mixture, I think boarding some of them out is a good choice. They are often dead cards in hand and transmuting is very taxing on the mana when you want to be playing many spells a turn. Boarding them out for Dispels or Counterspells is pretty good.
I don't think Courier's Capsule is very good. If you want to play a 4 mana draw spell, perhaps Deep Analysis is for you. I get that you can split the cost between turns, but it's still very inefficient. I suppose it could combo with Artificer's Epiphany, but then again so do Artifact Lands. Deep Analysis may seem clunky, but it can be the best draw spell in Pauper. If you tune your deck right, with more Cantrip effects, you can lean more heavily on single big draw spells to keep you going. This strategy has been successful in the hands of Resident_Zombie online.
My statement about winning on the clock wasn't very serious. From a cursory perspective, it seems like it has almost no other way of winning. Looking more deeply into the workings of the deck, it has a very solid (albeit slow) win condition.
Yes, this deck seems incredibly weak to almost every form of graveyard hate out there.
This is exactly the opposite of what I mean by "requiring skill". Just playing it for an afternoon likely won't get you anywhere. This deck will likely take an enormous amount of fineness in order to pilot properly. Simply testing it out for a few games without understanding the intricacies won't show you what it's truly capable of, in my opinion. A 5-0 record indicates there's more to it. Maybe it was luck...
As for the lower Fog count, it depends on what you're comfortable with and used to playing. Pierakor, if I'm not mistaken, played with 8 (+4) fogs in his maindeck and didn't do terribly. I think it's an adjustment, certainly, and it means you will occasionally run out of fogs versus a pure aggro deck, but in general I think it's certainly possible to get away with it more often than not.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
+ Resets the topdeck after Brainstorm
+ Can immediately provide mana
+ Can fix mana
- Needs mana to fetch, so can't be first (colored) land in game
Starting with the UG manabase in the opener, we have effectively 11 Green sources, 13 Blue sources, 4 CIPT lands, and 4 topdeck resets.
I'm considering something like -2 Forest, -1 Island, -4 Terramorphic Expanse, +4 Ash Barrens, +3 Thornwood Falls.
This gives us 12 Green sources, 15 Blue Sources, 3 CIPT lands, 4 topdeck resets, and 3 life.
Not sure if something like this is worth pursuing. Has anyone tried Barrens in the deck yet?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Just curious, why the disparity in artifact land (1 vs 4)? I take it CoP: Blue is for Delver?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Good to see you active in the thread Curby! Why was this such a definitive mull? An opener with three barrens could go:
t1 Ash Barrens, cycle AB#2 EOT
t2 Depending on what land you went for you can fog or play Brainstorm + cycle AB#3 EOT
t3 Now you have 2 colors and a colorless mana. Bad with lots of UU but, it occurs to me now, good with ravnica bounce duals to recover an early Ash Barrens and cycle it!
So I'm thinking of updating my Bant mana base, because like Bant Panorama, Ash Barrens goes so well with Isochron Scepter.
Something like:
4 Panorama
4 Barrens
2 simic growth chamber
2 azorious chancery
1 forest
1 plains
8 island
Thoughts?
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I agree that paying for the Wall of Tanglecord reach every turn can be really annoying. Consulate Skygate actually serves its purpose quite well because the matches where you would board it in don't have creatures with power greater than four. Blocking Insectile Abberations or Ninjas seems pretty sweet and it fits well into the deck at two mana. I think it's a legitimate sideboard card. Now if only it had just one power...
I think it should work. 4 bouncelands is probably too many, though. Considering that you probably won't play your ash barrens very often for their colourless side, you don't want to go overboard and tax your mana. I'd maybe cut to 2 Simic, 1 Azorious.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
What has surprised me however is Pulse of Murasa! That card is really solid on its own. I've often found Quiet Disrepair to be a bit slow as a tutor target. You muddle for it on turn 3, drop it on turn 4 and start gaining life on turn 5. And if you need to do that, you probably also need to fog on turn 4, which messes with my main plan of dropping Scepter on turn 4. Which means I need to have 2 fogs, one on turn 4 and one to imprint on turn 5... which gets really constrained considering I'm putting all my effort into getting that Disrepair.
Enter 3x Pulse of Murasa instead. You play it on turn 3, getting back a panorama or ash barrens, you gain a solid amount of life and ensure your turn 4 land drop for isochron (2 mana extra for counter back-up or activation). Nice! And with 3 in the deck, you can realistically dig for it on turn 2 with Impulse/Brainstorm if you really need it. Late game, it is golden with Constant Mists too. It is even narrow graveyard hate against reanimator type decks for example! Current list:
4 Ash Barrens
4 Bant Panorama
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Simic Growth Chamber
8 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Muddle the Mixture
ENGINE (5)
4 Isochron Scepter (u)
1 Constant Mists (u)
WIN/LOCK/PROTECTION (4)
3 Vision Charm
1 Raise the Alarm
4 Dawn Charm
4 Moment's Peace
1 Respite
OTHER COUNTERS (5)
4 Counterspell
1 Memory Lapse
OTHER TOOLS (4)
3 Pulse of Murasa
1 Into the Roil
I've moved away from SB Incinerate as an alt win con and now run Raise the Alarm in the main instead, to produce a token swarm against mill resistant decks. It is also a good early "fog" or "removal" to stall until you get Isochron on-line. Into the Roil replaces the disenchant part of quiet disrepair (especially with counter follow up) and it's a solid cantrip and imprint card too.
Sideboard is being reworked, but will definitely include 4th Vision Charm and possibly 4th Pulse of Murasa too.
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
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It was a single Barrens in the opener. To be fair to Barrens, I'm not sure that any other single land opener would have been playable though.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Skyshroud Cutter seems like a bad idea. It only really works against Ninja of the Deep Hours and then it only works after they've already hit you once with it.
Right now, my sideboard is this:
3 Dispel
2 Quiet Disrepair
1 Lignify
4 Scattershot Archer
1 Skyshroud Archer
Skyrshroud Archer is turning out to be almost as good as Scattershot. I start to Fog early against Delver in order to minimize the effects of ninja. If I see multiple archers in a game, I can begin to gang-block the ninjas.
Urdjur, sounds like Pulse of Murasa fits your deck really well! I also really like seeing Raise the Alarm in your deck, as it makes way more sense than a random burn spell (even if it would be faster). Good changes all around, it seems! Let me know how it does in testing.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
So, this was the list I used:
3 Forest
6 Island
1 Tree of Tales
1 Seat of the synod
4 Evolving wilds
2 Ash Barrens
4 Ponder
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Think Twice
4 Brainstorm
4 Arcane Denial
2 Gush
2 Quiet disrepair
4 jace's erasure
4 Moment's Peace
4 Tangle
2 Respite
4 Muddle the Mixture
1 Dispel
2 Circle of protection: black
1 Circle of protection: red
2 Quiet disrepair
4 scattershot archer
2 rest for the weary
So, to the matches we go.
Round 1 vs Stompy 2-0
As expected, an easy matchup. Just transmute when ran out of fog effects and go mill till win.
Round 2 vs Affi 0-2
So, here things get more interesting. Game 1 he had a slow hand so I proceed to develop my board with 2 jace´s and hitting land drops. After a couple of draw spells on both sides he get´s to stablish an offense able to kill me but I´m with enough fog spells in my hand for days. I´m at 4 life but he has all his Galvanics in the yard, only have to be awere of fling, since I have my clock on with my jaces. A few turns later, he flings me x 2 and I only have 1 counter in hand.
Game 2 I had 2 Counterspell, 1 Dispel and Circle red from the sideboard but don´t remember what I sided out for. Things are going well since I transmuted for my circle turn 3 and start negating his burn spells while also having 2 fogs in hand. Sadly, a few turns later he dispeled my fog followed by a muddle from my side and a pyroblast from his. GG, had no more permition or lands to pay for another fog.
Round 3 2-1 vs MBC
Game 1 developed very well for me. Being able to deploy 2 early erasure´s combined with some draw spells, fogs and permition for the only things I couldn´t beat (Gary and Corrupt).It was kind of close, but managed to outrace him with my jace´s.
Game 2 had a late forest on table and already took a bunch of damage from creatures that I was dead to anything (even to a Sing in Blood or Witches activation).
Game 3 Circle paid his slot in the sideboard since MBC can´t deal with it when it´s in play and that allowed me to side 6 fog spells for more permision and lifegain, as a way to combat his only real way to beat me dealing no combat damage.
As my sideboard options and little splash of white I found that it never harmed my curve as I almost never drew it and with 6 fetches, when you side in white cards, you can find it pretty easily. The main reason for doing this was Burn. Before going to my LGS played a few solo games to test this MU and it was REALLY REALLY BAD. Even post board games, with 4 Disrepairs I found myself been overwhelmed by Curse and Thermo´s constant ping damage even with 2 Disrepairs in play. And that also enabled the circle black, wich allowed me to set the above mentioned plan. Also I have 2, even though you only need 1 you can get recked from an early Duress or by you not being abble to counter it/hide it with brainstorm.
Overall I really liked the deck and it was a blast to play (at least for me! Don´t know for my opponents. I guess it´s too much antimagic? Lol). Didn´t expect the affi MU to be that hard (even thow it allways felt winable) but the combination of burn + big fast creatures + permision is an uphill battle.
If affinity gets the right draws, it can be pretty tough to beat, especially if it gets aggressive from the start.
If you are going to splash White, I would consider an extra CoP: Red in the sideboard, as it comes in handy in many matchups. Disrepairs were good enough at a time where Thermo-Alchemist didn't exist. Now, it needs to be backed up with lots of countermagic or other cards. I see you're running Rest for the Weary. Consider using Lignify. It handles Thermo-Alchemist very well on top of being useful against Tron and other fringe matchups. I'm currently considering running a second copy in my flex-slot in the sideboard.
Burn is definitely not an unwinnable matchup. Quiet Disrepair WILL win you games. My current sideboard basically turns my deck into an MUC deck with a green splash for lifegain; sounds pretty good against Burn (and it is). It all depends on how fast you can dish out a Disrepair and how much countermagic you draw (or CoPs). It also takes lots of practice to get this matchup down.
Devoting 2 slots just to fight MBC seems excessive. It's currently not a presence in the metagame (Turbo Fog churns in as many 5-0s as MBC in the online metagame, currently). Even without Circles, the matchup is decent enough. A single fetchable circle would likely be enough, in my opinion.
As a side-note: I've been recording some of my matches online and embedding them in the matchups section. There's currently one for Affinity, Black Aggro, Stompy, Tron, Tortured Existence and Domain Zoo. Check them out!
EDIT: Another sidenote for Burn: Jace's Erasure is often a very slow win condition. Krosan Tusker, however, is not! It's been a few games now where a resolved Krosan Tusker actually spells trouble for Burn players who are now on a 4 turn clock, forcing them to hold back blockers and even spend two burn spells just to deal with the guy.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I've also added a video for the Elves matchup. It's a real nail-biter! Definitely worth checking out.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I'm actually considering 4 Skyshroud Archer and 4 Netcaster Spider to completely shut down Delver aggro once they hit the table.
When it comes to Delver, we're still figuring out how best to fight it. I've just recently discovered that Ninja of the Deep Hours is probably the biggest problem card in the matchup, beyond even Spellstutter Sprite. This has helped my in-game decision-making.
There is the issue of over-boarding for the matchup, as well. Having 8 cards that don't interact with the rest of the strategy all that well can be a huge problem. I'm discovering that even taking out 4 draw spells has a dramatic difference on how the deck plays, let alone fogs or counters. I think boarding in that many cards might dilute the strategy too much and possibly weaken the deck.
I know that Pierakor tried boarding 8-10 cards for the Delver matchup and discovered diminishing returns in the results.
For your choice of sideboard tech, I'm not sold on Netcaster Spider. The 3-cc is pretty steep against Delver, when you consider that they could counter it or bounce it and eat your whole turn. It also only trades with Insectile Aberrations. It could also be pretty tricky to play in conjunction with Fogs in later turns. I tried Squall for a while and dropped it because of the mana cost. Hidden Spider might not be so bad, and Aerial Volley has proven to be an excellent anti-Delver card.
Some further notes on my recent Delver sidebaording:
I sideboarded like this recently: -2 Words of Wisdom, -2 Arcane Denial, -4 Accumulated Knowledge, -2 Quiet Disrepair, +4 Scattershot Archer, +1 Skyshroud Archer +2 Dispel, +3 Counterspell. This has been working better than anything else I've tried so far, but it's still not good enough. I noticed that I ran out of cards quickly in post games even with an archer lock. This is what killed me. I'm finding that I need my card advantage to keep up in order to keep finding Fogs. Double-blocking with archers just doesn't do it against Ninjas.
Thinking about it, I think in the future I'll be taking out some mix of Brainstorm and Muddle the Mixture, or maybe just Brainstorms. Delver draws enough cards on its own that Brainstorm "catching up" on mill doesn't really matter and it doesn't offer card advantage like AK does.
My boarding will likely look something more like this: -2 Words of Wisdom, -2 Arcane Denial, -4 Brainstorm, -2 Quiet Disrepair, +4 Scattershot Archer, +1 Skyshroud Archer +2 Dispel, +3 Counterspell. Hopefully this will improve the matchup. I've been needing a breakthrough for a while, if it's even possible.
Sorry for the long message. Delver sideboarding is such a complicated subject. I hope you found some useful information in there somewhere!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
This is yet another reason not to over-board versus Delver.
I can't just ignore it, however. My games versus Delver are improving gradually because I'm constantly optimizing my lines of play against it. I think that one day, we'll be able to stand a chance against Delver, even though it will never be a great matchup. I've 2-0'd a few times against it now, believe it or not. Most of the time, however, it's a 0-2 or a 1-2 loss. Post-board games are always really close. I feel like I just need a little extra kick to tip this matchup.
I'm considering making some big changes to my deck. I think Respite has been under-performing. I think I'd like to switch to something along the lines of what Hec278 is running, with Fogs instead. This would also give me the incentive to run a couple Thornwood Falls, which has many upsides. Mana flexibility would be really useful for this deck, and the lifegain would somewhat counteract the lack of Respite lifegain, even being better than Respite in matchups like Burn. Fog would allow me to play a tighter game in the early turns against aggressive decks. The only downside I see to this is that it is more susceptible to Spellstutter Sprite and obviously running more tap-lands can be dangerous.
Any thoughts on this?
I've also been very unhappy with the Burn matchup. Since the printing of Thermo-Alchemist, this matchup has gotten much worse. I'm considering going down a single Fog and moving a Counterspell to the maindeck and making space for a second Lignify, which would also help against Tron, which is a popular deck right now.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Thanks for the warm welcome! I did enjoy watching your videos and seeing how much work you put into improving the Turbo Fog archetype.
I came up with the idea of Netcaster Spider not only because it can kill both Ninja of the Deep Hours and Spire Golem, but being a 3-drop also allows it to get past Spellstutter Sprite counters. I thought of replacing Scattershot Archer with Skyshroud Archer because the -1/-1 will enable the spider to block even an Insectile Aberration, and this combination will completely shut down any attack from Delver decks. Hidden Spider feels inefficient because unflipped Delver of Secrets into ninja alone is enough to bring lots of problems.
Post-board they mostly bring in non-creature counters such as Dispel and board-out bounce spells anyway, so there's a decent chance that the spider will resolve. I'd probably be willing to board-out even a couple of fog spells because the Netcaster Spider - Skyshroud Archer combo alone will enable permanent board control.
What's your take on cutting Muddle the Mixture down to 2 to open up another sideboard slot? And also Courier's Capsule as alternative draw engine?
re: Muddle the Mixture, I think boarding some of them out is a good choice. They are often dead cards in hand and transmuting is very taxing on the mana when you want to be playing many spells a turn. Boarding them out for Dispels or Counterspells is pretty good.
I don't think Courier's Capsule is very good. If you want to play a 4 mana draw spell, perhaps Deep Analysis is for you. I get that you can split the cost between turns, but it's still very inefficient. I suppose it could combo with Artificer's Epiphany, but then again so do Artifact Lands. Deep Analysis may seem clunky, but it can be the best draw spell in Pauper. If you tune your deck right, with more Cantrip effects, you can lean more heavily on single big draw spells to keep you going. This strategy has been successful in the hands of Resident_Zombie online.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio