You're definitely right. Take Down might be a great card but it's probably no the best one for this deck. It will be very hard to beat Scattershot Archer, I think.
First things first, obviously the sideboard isn't finished. I'm not sure what exactly to put in the remaining slots. I think that I need more card draw. What I'm considering right now is - 2 Thought Scour, - 2 lands (maybe one each Forest and Island?), + 4 Accumulated Knowledge. And maybe ditch the last two copies of Thought Scour in favor of 2 Preordain. What do you guys think? I've lost to three Delver decks (1 Mono-U, 2 R/U) and once to burn. I kind of folded to it easily, although the Delver decks were a little closer.
Hi Sora180! Welcome to MTGS and to the Pauper Forums! We're always happy to see new aspiring Turbo Fog players and I hope to see more of you here!
The deck is looking decent, but there are a few major things to fix. First things first, Thought Scour likely needs to go, as you mentioned. cutting them for Accumulated Knowledge is a good idea. Thought Scour just isn't good at either drawing cards or milling.
Second, I see you're losing to Burn. Now it may seem like a hopeless matchup, but jamming your sideboard with tons of countermagic helps a lot, and you're missing an important piece of tech: Quiet Disrepair. You'll see most of the players currently active on this thread are running at least one in the maindeck and 1-2 others in the sideboard. These help tremendously against certain matchups, Burn included. Including a few Artifact Lands like Seat of the Synod will ensure you can cast it early.
Third, 22 lands seems like a lot for your current setup. Try cutting down to 21-20 in order to make room for flex slots or more draw spells.
Fourth, I prefer having all four Muddle the Mixture in the mainboard in order to be able to tutor Moment's Peace or a draw spell. Not to mention that it's a really good counterspell that generally targets everything we need. I would move two of your counterspells to the sideboard and add the rest of the muddles. You might even want to consider Arcane Denial. I've grown to not like the card as much as before, but it certainly still has a place in many decklists and can be a really powerful card.
Lastly, don't be discouraged by losing your games. Mono-Blue Delver is a tough matchup for this deck (the toughest, actually), and a combination of countermagic and burn spells is very difficult to overcome as well. You were poorly equipped to fight Burn, so it's no surprise you folded so easily. With a few tweaks, you'll be much better off already! Turbo Fog is not an easy deck to play, so don't let just four games turn you off the archetype. It takes a lot of practice in order to play well.
Hi Sora180! Welcome to MTGS and to the Pauper Forums! We're always happy to see new aspiring Turbo Fog players and I hope to see more of you here!
The deck is looking decent, but there are a few major things to fix. First things first, Thought Scour likely needs to go, as you mentioned. cutting them for Accumulated Knowledge is a good idea. Thought Scour just isn't good at either drawing cards or milling.
Second, I see you're losing to Burn. Now it may seem like a hopeless matchup, but jamming your sideboard with tons of countermagic helps a lot, and you're missing an important piece of tech: Quiet Disrepair. You'll see most of the players currently active on this thread are running at least one in the maindeck and 1-2 others in the sideboard. These help tremendously against certain matchups, Burn included. Including a few Artifact Lands like Seat of the Synod will ensure you can cast it early.
Third, 22 lands seems like a lot for your current setup. Try cutting down to 21-20 in order to make room for flex slots or more draw spells.
Fourth, I prefer having all four Muddle the Mixture in the mainboard in order to be able to tutor Moment's Peace or a draw spell. Not to mention that it's a really good counterspell that generally targets everything we need. I would move two of your counterspells to the sideboard and add the rest of the muddles. You might even want to consider Arcane Denial. I've grown to not like the card as much as before, but it certainly still has a place in many decklists and can be a really powerful card.
Lastly, don't be discouraged by losing your games. Mono-Blue Delver is a tough matchup for this deck (the toughest, actually), and a combination of countermagic and burn spells is very difficult to overcome as well. You were poorly equipped to fight Burn, so it's no surprise you folded so easily. With a few tweaks, you'll be much better off already! Turbo Fog is not an easy deck to play, so don't let just four games turn you off the archetype. It takes a lot of practice in order to play well.
I hope this helped! Good luck and see you around!
Thank you for the advice! How's this look as a proto-type?
Ponder is maybe not the best choice, at least not as a 4-of. Brainstorm will do a fine job. You may want to look into another good draw spell in that slot.
4 Nature's claim in the sideboard is most likely too many. With Quiet Disrepair already acting as a bad removal spell, you probably don't need more than two others.
3 Curse most likely isn't needed either, as you'll only ever have to deal with a small number of creatures in the metagame. Not to mention that it can be fetched with Muddle, this makes it a very accessible card. Perhaps more would be better considering how common Thermo-Alchemist has become in Burn, but that's your call.
Don't forget you can always check out the first post of this thread. In the deck-building section, you can find all the options I would recommend.
Really I hate the land delver pass player regardless wath I'm playing. Any idea to improve this Mu? In the last year I was running a triple circle of protection:blue but a with splash just for one deck is awful. The problem is the omnipresence of second turn ninja. Lignify is't good cause he can still attack and ninjutsu another ninja on the first one. Any idea ? Some walls? Oona's guard?
I don't recommend boarding in Quiet Disrepair against Delver. I tried it for a while and it really didn't do well. It's much better to have a good mix of Fogs and counters backed up with some hate, in my experience. So far it's been the only way I've been able to take a match from them. Check out my sideboard guide for the Delver matchup.
I haven't yet found a way to lock this matchup down, and I honestly don't know if there is one.
Comboing them is certainly an approach that could be explored, though it seems difficult to do so. Mulliganing into a card in order to win at all costs is pretty dangerous, although we could also Muddle for the enchantment. Jace's Erasure early does a lot more than put pressure on them, too. It also makes all their Ponders and Preordains that much weaker, because they can't rely on leaving cards on top. I've had players fail to flip Delvers for entire games because I was always forcing them to flip blindly by milling them.
Emisun, can you give us a run-down on how your two 2-0 games went against Delver?
One of the biggest reasons I run the draw package I do currently is that it's resistant to countermagic. Blue players hate countering something like Think Twice, and Krosan Tusker cycling is just impossible for them to deal with. I cut to two Words of Wisdom in order to give them the least amount of cards possible in game one and then typically board them out games 2-3. While it might not the the most explosive or efficient collection of draw spells, I like to think it as very safe.
If we were to accelerate the mill process into something more combo-oriented, what would that package look like against a deck like Delver?
Thinking out of the box here: considering how I manage to control my opponent by milling them (preventing them from stacking their deck and/or flipping Delver), why not take that direction even further, à la Lantern Control?
Something like Portent doesn't seem entirely unrealistic, as it's a maindeckable way of controlling what the opponent will draw and even give us an opportunity to mill a card away on their upkeep (not to mention we can always use it on ourselves). If we look at other options, Lurking Informant and Rootwater Mystic could also be interesting ways of controlling their deck and making sure they end up with nothing but lands and creatures.
Just an idea. It doesn't seem particularly powerful, but then again, Lantern Control looks like junk on paper.
I have a question for everyone here. I only play paper, and I wanted to try this out. But, my question is this...What are the thoughts on maybe a singleton of Capsize? I know the game plan is mill. But, I feel like it could put in some work, especially late game. Anyway, it's just a thought.
Our mana is tight. By the time we have enough mana to regularly Capsize (and ideally cast multiple copies per turn to lock out their manabase), we should have enough resources to control the game via Fogs and mill them. If the proposal is not an alternate way of locking out the game, but rather of utility removal, I'd prefer Echoing Truth.
Blue doesn't have great ways of handling resolved permanents except bouncing them, and Truth is powerful enough to be maindeck material in Legacy Merfolk for example, due to its broad applicability and splashable casting cost. At that point, I'd have to invoke my sig. Is it better than additional countermagic? Than Quiet Disrepair (which both disenchants and counters direct damage and life loss)? You have to argue for a card based on its intended role(s), and why other cards do not better fit those role(s).
I've always wanted to find a way to abuse Capsize, but I'm not sure this is the right place. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.
Thank you for the advice. I was really thinking Capsize is a good utility card that has the possibility of being a lock out. I agree, though. If there is enough mana to start abusing Capsize, we should be winning at the main game plan. But, it is a potentially reusable spell.
Capsize can be a powerful card, but really only shines against really specific archetypes. Even decks that do run the card as a singelton maindeck often board it out.
It could make for a great sideboard card against decks with few to no win conditions. Against Teachings Control, continually bouncing their Anglers or whatever finisher they use is a pretty strong thing to do. They run few creatures, so Capsize starts to look a lot better. It would also be (another) good way to get rid of their Curse of the Bloody Tomes.
There are probably a few matchups out there where Capsize would make sense. For the vast majority, however, Fogs + Counters + QD covers pretty much all the ground you could want.
So UG Tron Drake seems to be a distant cousin to this deck. By that I mean maindeck Fogs for defense with a Mill finish. Would it make sense to compare the two (in terms of pros and cons) in the primer? It seems like a much swingier version of the deck that can win very quickly, but needs more pieces to really get going.
So UG Tron Drake seems to be a distant cousin to this deck. By that I mean maindeck Fogs for defense with a Mill finish. Would it make sense to compare the two (in terms of pros and cons) in the primer? It seems like a much swingier version of the deck that can win very quickly, but needs more pieces to really get going.
A link to a list you are referring to would help see what you're talking about. In the short research that I did, I found a handful of tron decks that used the combo and some fogs. None of them used more than 2 fogs in the mainboard, so the strategy is clearly not the same. I wouldn't consider this an offshoot of Turbo Fog, but rather a Drake deck making a smart (but limited) use of Fogs in order to win the game. It has very little to do with a dedicated Turbo Fog deck.
It could make for a great sideboard card against decks with few to no win conditions. Against Teachings Control, continually bouncing their Anglers or whatever finisher they use is a pretty strong thing to do. They run few creatures, so Capsize starts to look a lot better. It would also be (another) good way to get rid of their Curse of the Bloody Tomes.
There are probably a few matchups out there where Capsize would make sense. For the vast majority, however, Fogs + Counters + QD covers pretty much all the ground you could want.
That's very strange that the deck contains no drakes. I hope it's a mistake, or else I'm really confused!
The way I see it (and the way the strategy is portrayed in the article), the deck basically wants to win on turn four or five, and having a small number of Fogs in the maindeck is a metagame choice to counter opponents who are racing the combo with damage. That seems to be one of the better ways to beat the deck. Turbo Fog lays down its win condition as early as turn two and then can completely forget about it and just focus on staying alive. It doesn't have a set time to win (at least, not in the same sense as a combo deck does).
The weaknesses of the decks are not the same, the win conditions are not the same and the mentality is completely different. The decks share few common components and don't use them in the same way. I think comparing them is a big stretch, honestly. While it's certainly interesting to analyse, I don't think the Turbo Fog Primer is the best place to do so.
I agree that the decks are quite different, but re: win conditions I'd point out that the Drake deck also has a mill-to-win component. Regardless, pardon the derail.
Would you mind updating the OP/primer with some Drake information? It seems that Faeries Macabre are the common sideboard tech against them, but how would you build your sideboard in the Drake meta, and how would you board against that deck specifically? After searching the thread there was mention that UR is harder and the other variants are easier, but summarizing your experience in the "matchup section" would be great if you have the time to write that up.
I ask because they haven't banned it yet even given the opportunity to do so, and even if they do this is the paper subforum where we would still benefit from some anti-drake discussion.
Yes, an update is on the way. I need to do quite a bit more testing before I release a detailed matchup analysis. With the ban announcement come and gone and no changes, this deck is certainly worth creating an entry for.
EDIT: Looks like that won't be necessary anymore, as Peregrine Drake will be banned as of the 16th of November
The combo autumn is ended. Greetings everyone!!! On the next week i'll return on mtgo fogging like an honey badger. Bull***** aside C16 gifted us with a powerful resource ASH BARRENS. This card is amazing, now I'm testing it in 2 copies alongside 4 fetchlands in the UG(w) version. What's do u think about it? The best of those lands is the second shuffle effect in a turn u already play fetch. Opinions?
Super. Ash Barrens is certainly interesting but I'll need to spend some time figuring out if it's really the best fit in a deck like this. My guess is probably yes. My only issue is when considering hand size, Barrens might be in the way and force us to play down to size a bit more often, but that's pretty trivial.
Also, getting my hands on them in real life has been pretty difficult.
Welcome back Pierakor,
Good to see you're still experimenting. I'd like to get your point of view on Take Inventory. I'm also a little surprised by the full set of Artificer's Epiphany.
Skyshroud Archer is the most surprising thing in your list, but mostly because I can't believe I didn't find it when looking for Delver hate. It didn't occur to me to search for -X/-X stuff at common in Green. It's definitely worse in almost every scenario than Scattershot Archer, but it serves an almost identical role against Delver. How has it been working out for you in practice? I'm guessing that since Drake Combo is out of the picture, we'll be seeing a big return to Delver.
You weren't a firm believer in COP Red. What changed?
Literally bought the deck yesterday and haven't played in more than a year I think. After about 6 matches I don't like Take Inventory much. Sorcery speed is a real headache and playing 4 AK 4 Take Inventory 4 Moment's Peace makes you very weak against GY hate. Every single deck I played brought in 2 relics. After some initial testing I found my problems were mana screw early game, mana flood late game and drawing my opponent too many cards with Arcane Denial and Words of Wisdom. So I replaced Arcane Denial with Counterspells and Words of Wisdom with Epiphany. I think Epiphany could be alright. The real problem for me is still that I have to chase land drops for the first few turns and if I miss land drops that really hurts me. But mid and lategame I just draw 4 lands in a row at some point and die. I really wish Oona's Grace was 1u instant or U sorcery. I'm thinking about something like Desperate Ravings perhaps... Just cut 1 Island, add 1 Mountain. Play 4 Desperate Ravings? Seems better than Think Twice for sure.
I was a firm believer in COP:red as far as I can remember! I definitely used to play 2 in my sb at some time. I still think if you play white you have to play 1 because you get so much value out of it through muddle.
I only play the deck casually, and don't yet have much experience with it, but I have to say Think Twice seems rather underwhelming. I might try out Artificer's Epiphany in its place. I know Upkeep likes its inherent resistance to countermagic, but 5 mana is a big ask, not to mention the resulting total reliance on the yard (Think Twice/AK/Moment's Peace). Maybe something like this:
Literally bought the deck yesterday and haven't played in more than a year I think. After about 6 matches I don't like Take Inventory much. Sorcery speed is a real headache and playing 4 AK 4 Take Inventory 4 Moment's Peace makes you very weak against GY hate. Every single deck I played brought in 2 relics. After some initial testing I found my problems were mana screw early game, mana flood late game and drawing my opponent too many cards with Arcane Denial and Words of Wisdom. So I replaced Arcane Denial with Counterspells and Words of Wisdom with Epiphany. I think Epiphany could be alright. The real problem for me is still that I have to chase land drops for the first few turns and if I miss land drops that really hurts me. But mid and lategame I just draw 4 lands in a row at some point and die. I really wish Oona's Grace was 1u instant or U sorcery. I'm thinking about something like Desperate Ravings perhaps... Just cut 1 Island, add 1 Mountain. Play 4 Desperate Ravings? Seems better than Think Twice for sure.
I was a firm believer in COP:red as far as I can remember! I definitely used to play 2 in my sb at some time. I still think if you play white you have to play 1 because you get so much value out of it through muddle.
I also had some concerns for Take Inventory, but had never gotten around to trying it out. I completely agree that graveyard hate becomes a legitimate threat for us when we're running 12+ cards that rely on it.
If you're having trouble making your land drops early and getting flooded later, you may want to consider Preordain. I can see it being more useful in land-heavy decks than in leaner 20-land ones. Consider perhaps cutting two Epiphanies for them? It's not card advantage, but your other draw might be efficient enough that you can get away with it.
Desperate Ravings is random discard, which is a big deal in my books. Splashing into another colour for a draw spell with random discard doesn't seem like a good idea. I think I'd prefer Think Twice for the simplicity of the design.
Oona's Grace is a card I'm really fond of and I played it extensively years ago. I'd definitely recommend it as a 1-of. Even if it can be clunky in some games, it can outright win in others. Cycling your lands is not to be underestimated, even at 3 mana. Not to mention you can mill your opponent with it (I've killed some opponents that way a couple times).
I only play the deck casually, and don't yet have much experience with it, but I have to say Think Twice seems rather underwhelming. I might try out Artificer's Epiphany in its place. I know Upkeep likes its inherent resistance to countermagic, but 5 mana is a big ask, not to mention the resulting total reliance on the yard (Think Twice/AK/Moment's Peace). Maybe something like this:
6 3-drops, 5 yard-dependent cards, 3 reliant on artifacts, 2 that give the opponent cards, 1 resistant to countermagic, 0 Sorceries.
Any obvious problems here? (I see the high mana costs as possibly being an issue.)
TT is more than just 5 mana for two cards. Don't forget you can split it up over multiple turns and reap the rewards later.
For you Draw package, I would remove the Tuskers and put in some cheaper draw. As it sits, you most certainly have too much 3 cmc draw, imo. This will restrict your options on any given turn and also prevent your from even drawing cards in the early game, which is a big deal.
It seems definitely derived from Turbo Fog, but what a strange deck list! It seems more inclined to win through opponent time-out than anything else. Almost no mainboard mill, and the single Battlefield Scrounger is either essentially a 6/6 for 5 mana that prevents you from decking out from all the draw. I can't quite figure out how the deck really wins other than through Scrounger, but the ability can only be activated once a turn, and there's only one of him.
After spending the day thinking about it, I really like this approach. It's fresh, creative and has inevitability with a permanent lock. It certainly has its advantages.
I've been thinking of this deck as the "Doomsday Fog" variant, after the card Doomsday. It really is quite similar, where you'll pick specific cards to be in your top 3 or 6 in order to beat your opponent. Against an opponent with lots of removal, you have Pulse of Murasa to get the Scrounger back every time it gets killed. Pulse also covers any direct damage matchups or low-threat decks that only have a single win condition. Against decks with big attacks steps, getting back Respite every turn ruins their hopes of winning. Against Blue decks, recurring a Negate every turn will inevitably wear them down. There seem to be "piles" to meet most archetypes. The level of skill required would be very high.
Looking at the numbers in the deck, it's actually quite elegant. The single Negate is really all you need once you're at the end of your deck against spell-oriented decks. the single Respite also fills the role against aggro very well. Removal-Heavy decks could prove to be difficult, but not impossible to beat. I was thinking that playing Scrounger and putting three cards back on your own turn and then on the opponents' turn (total of six) with an Accumulated Knowledge on top for four cards would allow you to draw and answer most scenarios. Maybe it's just wishful thinking versus a deck like MBC, but at least the sideboard is built to address that problem.
Honestly, I so rarely gush over a deck anymore, but this is just so clever and the depth of the knowledge and skill required to play it correctly is astonishing. I don't know if it's better than traditional Turbo Fog, but it certainly has its appeals.
You mentioned it wins by running the opp. out of a clock, so I wonder if the deck would work in paper. I imagine you can finish (and hopefully win) at least one game in a paper tourney with this, but if you lose G1, time is working against you since you're the slower deck and the opponent can happily play the durdle game till he wins the entire match 1-0. Since I play paper, I'm a bit skeptical, but perhaps that's unwarranted since I haven't actually played it.
Also as Hec mentioned, it seems yard-dependent to a scary degree, but if you're the only graveyard deck in a meta perhaps people will not pack hate.
You're definitely right. Take Down might be a great card but it's probably no the best one for this deck. It will be very hard to beat Scattershot Archer, I think.
Hi Sora180! Welcome to MTGS and to the Pauper Forums! We're always happy to see new aspiring Turbo Fog players and I hope to see more of you here!
The deck is looking decent, but there are a few major things to fix. First things first, Thought Scour likely needs to go, as you mentioned. cutting them for Accumulated Knowledge is a good idea. Thought Scour just isn't good at either drawing cards or milling.
Second, I see you're losing to Burn. Now it may seem like a hopeless matchup, but jamming your sideboard with tons of countermagic helps a lot, and you're missing an important piece of tech: Quiet Disrepair. You'll see most of the players currently active on this thread are running at least one in the maindeck and 1-2 others in the sideboard. These help tremendously against certain matchups, Burn included. Including a few Artifact Lands like Seat of the Synod will ensure you can cast it early.
Third, 22 lands seems like a lot for your current setup. Try cutting down to 21-20 in order to make room for flex slots or more draw spells.
Fourth, I prefer having all four Muddle the Mixture in the mainboard in order to be able to tutor Moment's Peace or a draw spell. Not to mention that it's a really good counterspell that generally targets everything we need. I would move two of your counterspells to the sideboard and add the rest of the muddles. You might even want to consider Arcane Denial. I've grown to not like the card as much as before, but it certainly still has a place in many decklists and can be a really powerful card.
Lastly, don't be discouraged by losing your games. Mono-Blue Delver is a tough matchup for this deck (the toughest, actually), and a combination of countermagic and burn spells is very difficult to overcome as well. You were poorly equipped to fight Burn, so it's no surprise you folded so easily. With a few tweaks, you'll be much better off already! Turbo Fog is not an easy deck to play, so don't let just four games turn you off the archetype. It takes a lot of practice in order to play well.
I hope this helped! Good luck and see you around!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Thank you for the advice! How's this look as a proto-type?
4 Words of Wisdom
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Counters:
4 Muddle the Mixture
2 Counterspell
Fogs:
4 Respite
4 Tangle
4 Moment's Peace
4 Jace's Erasure
2 Quiet Disrepair
Lands:
4 Thornwood Falls
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Forest
7 Island
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Tree of Tales
2 Counterspell
4 Nature's Claim
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Dispel
3 Curse of Chains
2 Hydroblast
A few more nit-picks, if you don't mind.
Ponder is maybe not the best choice, at least not as a 4-of. Brainstorm will do a fine job. You may want to look into another good draw spell in that slot.
4 Nature's claim in the sideboard is most likely too many. With Quiet Disrepair already acting as a bad removal spell, you probably don't need more than two others.
3 Curse most likely isn't needed either, as you'll only ever have to deal with a small number of creatures in the metagame. Not to mention that it can be fetched with Muddle, this makes it a very accessible card. Perhaps more would be better considering how common Thermo-Alchemist has become in Burn, but that's your call.
Don't forget you can always check out the first post of this thread. In the deck-building section, you can find all the options I would recommend.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I don't recommend boarding in Quiet Disrepair against Delver. I tried it for a while and it really didn't do well. It's much better to have a good mix of Fogs and counters backed up with some hate, in my experience. So far it's been the only way I've been able to take a match from them. Check out my sideboard guide for the Delver matchup.
I haven't yet found a way to lock this matchup down, and I honestly don't know if there is one.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Emisun, can you give us a run-down on how your two 2-0 games went against Delver?
One of the biggest reasons I run the draw package I do currently is that it's resistant to countermagic. Blue players hate countering something like Think Twice, and Krosan Tusker cycling is just impossible for them to deal with. I cut to two Words of Wisdom in order to give them the least amount of cards possible in game one and then typically board them out games 2-3. While it might not the the most explosive or efficient collection of draw spells, I like to think it as very safe.
If we were to accelerate the mill process into something more combo-oriented, what would that package look like against a deck like Delver?
Thinking out of the box here: considering how I manage to control my opponent by milling them (preventing them from stacking their deck and/or flipping Delver), why not take that direction even further, à la Lantern Control?
Something like Portent doesn't seem entirely unrealistic, as it's a maindeckable way of controlling what the opponent will draw and even give us an opportunity to mill a card away on their upkeep (not to mention we can always use it on ourselves). If we look at other options, Lurking Informant and Rootwater Mystic could also be interesting ways of controlling their deck and making sure they end up with nothing but lands and creatures.
Just an idea. It doesn't seem particularly powerful, but then again, Lantern Control looks like junk on paper.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Blue doesn't have great ways of handling resolved permanents except bouncing them, and Truth is powerful enough to be maindeck material in Legacy Merfolk for example, due to its broad applicability and splashable casting cost. At that point, I'd have to invoke my sig. Is it better than additional countermagic? Than Quiet Disrepair (which both disenchants and counters direct damage and life loss)? You have to argue for a card based on its intended role(s), and why other cards do not better fit those role(s).
I've always wanted to find a way to abuse Capsize, but I'm not sure this is the right place. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
It could make for a great sideboard card against decks with few to no win conditions. Against Teachings Control, continually bouncing their Anglers or whatever finisher they use is a pretty strong thing to do. They run few creatures, so Capsize starts to look a lot better. It would also be (another) good way to get rid of their Curse of the Bloody Tomes.
There are probably a few matchups out there where Capsize would make sense. For the vast majority, however, Fogs + Counters + QD covers pretty much all the ground you could want.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
A link to a list you are referring to would help see what you're talking about. In the short research that I did, I found a handful of tron decks that used the combo and some fogs. None of them used more than 2 fogs in the mainboard, so the strategy is clearly not the same. I wouldn't consider this an offshoot of Turbo Fog, but rather a Drake deck making a smart (but limited) use of Fogs in order to win the game. It has very little to do with a dedicated Turbo Fog deck.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/alexullman-10182016-know-thy-enemy/
Unfortunately I don't think that deck works. I see 60 cards and 0 Drakes.
(I know it's very different, but might make an interesting point of comparison.)
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
The way I see it (and the way the strategy is portrayed in the article), the deck basically wants to win on turn four or five, and having a small number of Fogs in the maindeck is a metagame choice to counter opponents who are racing the combo with damage. That seems to be one of the better ways to beat the deck. Turbo Fog lays down its win condition as early as turn two and then can completely forget about it and just focus on staying alive. It doesn't have a set time to win (at least, not in the same sense as a combo deck does).
The weaknesses of the decks are not the same, the win conditions are not the same and the mentality is completely different. The decks share few common components and don't use them in the same way. I think comparing them is a big stretch, honestly. While it's certainly interesting to analyse, I don't think the Turbo Fog Primer is the best place to do so.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/485892#online
I agree that the decks are quite different, but re: win conditions I'd point out that the Drake deck also has a mill-to-win component. Regardless, pardon the derail.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I ask because they haven't banned it yet even given the opportunity to do so, and even if they do this is the paper subforum where we would still benefit from some anti-drake discussion.
Thanks!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
EDIT: Looks like that won't be necessary anymore, as Peregrine Drake will be banned as of the 16th of November
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
Super. Ash Barrens is certainly interesting but I'll need to spend some time figuring out if it's really the best fit in a deck like this. My guess is probably yes. My only issue is when considering hand size, Barrens might be in the way and force us to play down to size a bit more often, but that's pretty trivial.
Also, getting my hands on them in real life has been pretty difficult.
Welcome back Pierakor,
Good to see you're still experimenting. I'd like to get your point of view on Take Inventory. I'm also a little surprised by the full set of Artificer's Epiphany.
Skyshroud Archer is the most surprising thing in your list, but mostly because I can't believe I didn't find it when looking for Delver hate. It didn't occur to me to search for -X/-X stuff at common in Green. It's definitely worse in almost every scenario than Scattershot Archer, but it serves an almost identical role against Delver. How has it been working out for you in practice? I'm guessing that since Drake Combo is out of the picture, we'll be seeing a big return to Delver.
You weren't a firm believer in COP Red. What changed?
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I was a firm believer in COP:red as far as I can remember! I definitely used to play 2 in my sb at some time. I still think if you play white you have to play 1 because you get so much value out of it through muddle.
Youtube Channel
My stream:
www.twitch.tv/pierakor
My Disco:
https://discord.gg/gTt6xHd
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Artificer's Epiphany
2 Words of Wisdom
2 Krosan Tusker
1 Oona's Grace
6 3-drops, 5 yard-dependent cards, 3 reliant on artifacts, 2 that give the opponent cards, 1 resistant to countermagic, 0 Sorceries.
Any obvious problems here? (I see the high mana costs as possibly being an issue.)
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I also had some concerns for Take Inventory, but had never gotten around to trying it out. I completely agree that graveyard hate becomes a legitimate threat for us when we're running 12+ cards that rely on it.
If you're having trouble making your land drops early and getting flooded later, you may want to consider Preordain. I can see it being more useful in land-heavy decks than in leaner 20-land ones. Consider perhaps cutting two Epiphanies for them? It's not card advantage, but your other draw might be efficient enough that you can get away with it.
Desperate Ravings is random discard, which is a big deal in my books. Splashing into another colour for a draw spell with random discard doesn't seem like a good idea. I think I'd prefer Think Twice for the simplicity of the design.
Oona's Grace is a card I'm really fond of and I played it extensively years ago. I'd definitely recommend it as a 1-of. Even if it can be clunky in some games, it can outright win in others. Cycling your lands is not to be underestimated, even at 3 mana. Not to mention you can mill your opponent with it (I've killed some opponents that way a couple times).
TT is more than just 5 mana for two cards. Don't forget you can split it up over multiple turns and reap the rewards later.
For you Draw package, I would remove the Tuskers and put in some cheaper draw. As it sits, you most certainly have too much 3 cmc draw, imo. This will restrict your options on any given turn and also prevent your from even drawing cards in the early game, which is a big deal.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Speaking of successful lists, take a look at what I found:
1 Battlefield Scrounger
Draw (18)
3 Deep Analysis
4 Pieces of the Puzzle
4 Preordain
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Think Twice
1 Thought Scour
Fogs (8)
3 Fog
4 Moment's Peace
1 Respite
1 Negate
4 Arcane Denial
Other (8)
2 Pulse of Murasa
2 Kodama's Reach
4 Rampant Growth
Lands (20)
6 Forest
5 Island
1 Radiant Fountain
4 Simic Growth Chamber
4 Thornwood Falls
1 Negate
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Respite
4 Curse of the Bloody Tome
4 Dispel
4 Hydroblast
It seems definitely derived from Turbo Fog, but what a strange deck list! It seems more inclined to win through opponent time-out than anything else. Almost no mainboard mill, and the single Battlefield Scrounger is either essentially a 6/6 for 5 mana that prevents you from decking out from all the draw. I can't quite figure out how the deck really wins other than through Scrounger, but the ability can only be activated once a turn, and there's only one of him.
I'd be very curious to see this deck in action!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
After spending the day thinking about it, I really like this approach. It's fresh, creative and has inevitability with a permanent lock. It certainly has its advantages.
I've been thinking of this deck as the "Doomsday Fog" variant, after the card Doomsday. It really is quite similar, where you'll pick specific cards to be in your top 3 or 6 in order to beat your opponent. Against an opponent with lots of removal, you have Pulse of Murasa to get the Scrounger back every time it gets killed. Pulse also covers any direct damage matchups or low-threat decks that only have a single win condition. Against decks with big attacks steps, getting back Respite every turn ruins their hopes of winning. Against Blue decks, recurring a Negate every turn will inevitably wear them down. There seem to be "piles" to meet most archetypes. The level of skill required would be very high.
Looking at the numbers in the deck, it's actually quite elegant. The single Negate is really all you need once you're at the end of your deck against spell-oriented decks. the single Respite also fills the role against aggro very well. Removal-Heavy decks could prove to be difficult, but not impossible to beat. I was thinking that playing Scrounger and putting three cards back on your own turn and then on the opponents' turn (total of six) with an Accumulated Knowledge on top for four cards would allow you to draw and answer most scenarios. Maybe it's just wishful thinking versus a deck like MBC, but at least the sideboard is built to address that problem.
Honestly, I so rarely gush over a deck anymore, but this is just so clever and the depth of the knowledge and skill required to play it correctly is astonishing. I don't know if it's better than traditional Turbo Fog, but it certainly has its appeals.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Also as Hec mentioned, it seems yard-dependent to a scary degree, but if you're the only graveyard deck in a meta perhaps people will not pack hate.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.