I was wondering if anyone has tried making a zombie deck with Tortured Existence? There are two major creatures that make this seem plausible to me, Gempalm Polluter and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. The Gempalm can be cycled several times a turn as long as you keep drawing creatures to ditch for it, and the Merchant hits harder but less often. We also have Undertaker as a less viable extra to add in with Tortured Existence, so we hit the sweet spot for combo. Two pieces for the combo, two versions of each piece so we can run all in combo or aggro combo.
I think one of the main cards to include in this deck is Undead Servant. Once the engine starts, this zombie will create you an army in no time with Stinkweed Imp.
You're probably going to want Grave Scrabbler. His synergy with TE is incredible.
These two cards can essentially make your deck function. Fill it out with other good zombies and removal and you're fine!
As for Aggro Zombies, check out this link to an already pretty good list. I played against it a couple times with DnLL using my own aggro deck and got flattened.
There are some issues with it, but the consistency is going up. Sadly there aren't two sets of Nameless Inversion, that card is amazing (I have been goldfishing a lot). Recycling a kill spell over and over again is great.
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I'm going to get a friend to play a few thousand matches this weekend against the tier 1s and see how I can tweak it. So far I have found that Delver and Caw Blade tear it apart, so I'm going to see about making it hit a little harder and making it more threat dense.
[card]
Gray Merchant of Asphodel[/card] seems like a side board card in testing, because it requires more lands than I want to run and gets countered. I think maybe siding it in against aggro and playing control while reversing that against control might work.
Edit: What decks do I need to test with? Tron, delver, caw blade, and stompy for sure. What makes up the list of generally good decks?
I played the deck for about 6 hours today, here is what I learned.
1. The deck has a massive issue built into it, which is that it dredges all of your land into the graveyard and there is no way to get it back. Unless you start with four land in hand chances are you are never going to play Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Undead Servant.
2. Gempalm Polluter is an amazing card, and the deck absolutely needs 4. I frequently went draw step-Dredge back one of the dredge critters-use Tortured existence to swap it for polluter-cycle-dredge card back again, which fills in between 6 and 10 cards.
3. The deck fills up the graveyard amazingly quickly, often getting to 5 cards turn 2 (Putrid Imp in play, discard Stinkweed Imp at upkeep, dredge 5 to return it to hand, Delve 5 and play Gurmag Angler).
My cuts during the day moved towards cheaper to cast creatures and less attempts to be cute. It currently looks like this:
I have also tried nameless inversion instead of shambling goblin, but neither of them does what I really want. I have considered switching carrion feeder and shambling goblin for other cards, but the deck needs 1 drops for gempalm. Hopefully someone else will test this and tell me how they do, so far the deck feels very different in play than it did when I was goldfishing.
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I really want this deck to work - it's like a mono black pauper dredge!
The deck has a massive issue built into it, which is that it dredges all of your land into the graveyard and there is no way to get it back. Unless you start with four land in hand chances are you are never going to play Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Undead Servant.
It may seem like it, but you're actually just as likely to top deck land when you draw with half your library (and half your land) in your GY. What's going on is that you're dredging all the time and well, obviously you're getting a creature then rather than your top deck and hence no land. I suggest making room for 4 Grim Discovery and swapping 4 of your Swamps for Barren Moor. This gives you some more flexibility, both being able to save a Stinkweed Imp from GY hate by dredging at instant speed, and getting back some lands and dudes that you dredged. I'd say that with the cost from TortEx, you definetely want to hit 4 mana anyway, so you should play 4 Undead Servant. You can probably forget about Merchant though.
I wouldn't worry about 1-drops to max out on early pollutors. Think of them as bad draw spells that let you dredge at instant speed when needed. Only bother with recurring them once you have resolved an Undead Servant or have an otherwise strong board presence.
Nameless Inversion and Ghoulcaller's Chant is tried and tested cheese. Very good removal with StImpy in there too. I think you should definetely run it over Shambling Goblin. If you do, you might as well take out Carrion Feeder too. So, I'd recommend:
Also, is Shambling Shell being a zombie relevant? Otherwise I'd swap it for Golgari Brownscale as you're never playing either, and you could probably use the extra life more than the one more dredge. This is a really interesting deck IMO!
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When I was playing a dredge-centered aggro deck, I also discovered this problem with land.
The solution is simple: You just need to know when to dredge and when not to. If you dredge all the time, you'll never see a land again. With that in mind, you need to ask yourself if it isn't more worthwhile to just draw a card (even if you're not looking for a land) rather than get an imp or something back.
Dredging properly actually takes a lot of practice and skill!
I think those are some excellent points. I am thinking of pushing the land count up to 22 (4 barren moors, 18 swamp) because it is vital that the deck get some gas.
The dredge thing is how long does it take to pay for an angler, because an early angler is often a game won. However the golgari healing is effectively two extra HP a turn, which is nothing to scoff at.
Switching in Exhume feels right. I'm going to see about getting undead servant and gempalm polluter back, but this deck now has a substantial chance of doing something big right off the bat, and is capable of grinding the opponent out in the long run.
I think 22 lands would be a good idea. You know, I've been thinking about if you should replace Tortured Existence with Rotting Rats. IMO, this deck needs to develop the yard as soon as possible. Traditional BG tortex can start with applying early pressure with Basking Rootwalla and Putrid Leech, but you basically don't have any early drops. Gurmag Angler, Tortured Existence, Grave Scrabbler and Undead Servant pretty much requires a developed yard to work. Your primary plan to get that on-line is Putrid Imp discarding Stinkweed Imp, which is cool when it works but it is in fact a 2-card combo. To get Tortex on-line so you can discard Stimpy to it, you need to chump-and-kill one of your creatures or be fortunate enough to have a Gempalm Polluter. There is also the issue of dredging into a tortex that you can't recover.
Enter Rotting Rats - it is a zombie and you can discard StImpy to it turn 2 while developing your board and disrupting your opponent. Chumping with it is only good for you - more discard outlets and more disruption for your opponent, and you can unearth it to up your zombie count for a late polluter.
You already have a better and easier to use repeatable discard outlet in Putrid Imp since it doesn't require a creature in the yard to get going, and you can get it back with your sorcery recursion spells if you dredge into it. IMO, the real problem is that there is no real substitute for StImpy's Dredge 5. Dredging 2 or even 3 is comparably underwhelming. When I've tried similar builds, I've always used green as a secondary color to get better GY developers (Satyr Wayfinder is my favorite, but Commune with the Gods would probably be better for you if you stick with zombies and tortex, or Grisly Salvage if you don't want TortEx). That way you can dig for StImp if you don't have one in your opener (which is the case some 60% of the time) - and importantly develop the board with chumpers while doing so.
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?? Seems strange to me that any list with 4x Nameless Inversion and 4x Stinkweed Imp should fold to aggro. Could you be more specific, what is going on?
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I played about 6 games against a mono black aggro deck on Monday, lost all of them badly. Stinkweed Imp doesn't come down until turn 3, by which time their shadow creatures have a weapon equipped and are cutting deep into my life.
In only one game did they even get an optimal starting hand, playing three 2/2s on turn 0 while I durdled a putrid imp into play. My Nameless Inversion got stripped out by a hymn to tourach, and I never saw a stinkweed imp in that round.
I also played against a janky bounce token deck which seemed almost custom built for beating this deck, but I won't go into that because it isn't going to show up outside of my play group.
The third deck I tested against was a G/W Midnight Gond combo deck.
Game one went:
Turn 1: Putrid Imp, trash stinkweed imp at end of opponent's turn. They played a creature.
Turn 2: Dredge 5, play second swamp, angler.
Turn 3: Dredge 5, play angler.
Turn 4: Dredge 5, Angler. Opponent concedes.
Board in my abominations, I figure quick kills are the name of the game here.
Would Gangrenous Zombies be a good sideboard to help with this? Running snow swamps is cheap and won't effect the deck in any way, but having a recursive Crypt Rats might work better than a single shot one?
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Hey everyone, bringing this back from the dead with some good news. So far this is by far the best version, with the biggest change being the inclusion of Death Denied as a mid-late game finisher and Crypt Rat as a renewable field bomb.
[card]
Gempalm Polluter[/card] is kind of weak, not sure what to put in its place. I would run Gary but I feel like the mana can't take it.
This deck has a lot of combos and synergies as the game goes on.
1. 2 Golgari Brownscales with a tortured existence = 2 life per mana spent, over and over again.
2. 1 Golgari Brownscale with a tortured existence= 1 life per mana spent, much weaker but still frequently a game winner.
3. Dredge creatures + Gempalm Polluter: Dredge 2-5 cards for every 3 mana spent, with Golgari Brownscale gain life, with zombies in play deal damage.
4. Crypt Rat with any way to recur it + Golgari Brownscales = our very own evincar's justice.
5. Nameless Inversion + Ghoulcaller's Chant= recursive kill spell.
Gravescrabbler goes in over Ghoulcaller's chant vs. control, since you get a creature and a draw that cannot be countered.
[card]
Infernal Caretaker[/card] might be better than death denied, but 8 mana is a lot more than I think anyone can do in one turn. It can be brought back from the grave though, and puts more cards back.
Enablers:
Possible aggro zombies:
Possible Control Zombies:
Early draft:
4 Gempalm Polluter
4 Tortured Existence
2 Undertaker
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Black Cat
4 Rotting Rats
4 hymn to tourach
4 dead weight
24 swamp
4 dark ritual
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You're probably going to want Grave Scrabbler. His synergy with TE is incredible.
These two cards can essentially make your deck function. Fill it out with other good zombies and removal and you're fine!
As for Aggro Zombies, check out this link to an already pretty good list. I played against it a couple times with DnLL using my own aggro deck and got flattened.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
4 Grave Scrabbler
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tortured Existence
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Putrid Imp
4 Gempalm Polluter
4 Shambling Shell
4 Ghoulcaller's Chant
4 Nameless Inversion
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Brain Gorgers
11 Swamp
8 Forest
There are some issues with it, but the consistency is going up. Sadly there aren't two sets of Nameless Inversion, that card is amazing (I have been goldfishing a lot). Recycling a kill spell over and over again is great.
UB Wight Phantasm
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UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
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[card]
Gray Merchant of Asphodel[/card] seems like a side board card in testing, because it requires more lands than I want to run and gets countered. I think maybe siding it in against aggro and playing control while reversing that against control might work.
Edit: What decks do I need to test with? Tron, delver, caw blade, and stompy for sure. What makes up the list of generally good decks?
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
I played the deck for about 6 hours today, here is what I learned.
1. The deck has a massive issue built into it, which is that it dredges all of your land into the graveyard and there is no way to get it back. Unless you start with four land in hand chances are you are never going to play Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Undead Servant.
2. Gempalm Polluter is an amazing card, and the deck absolutely needs 4. I frequently went draw step-Dredge back one of the dredge critters-use Tortured existence to swap it for polluter-cycle-dredge card back again, which fills in between 6 and 10 cards.
3. The deck fills up the graveyard amazingly quickly, often getting to 5 cards turn 2 (Putrid Imp in play, discard Stinkweed Imp at upkeep, dredge 5 to return it to hand, Delve 5 and play Gurmag Angler).
My cuts during the day moved towards cheaper to cast creatures and less attempts to be cute. It currently looks like this:
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Tortured Existence
4 Grave Scrabbler
4 Ghoulcaller's Chant
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Shambling Goblin
20 Swamp
I have also tried nameless inversion instead of shambling goblin, but neither of them does what I really want. I have considered switching carrion feeder and shambling goblin for other cards, but the deck needs 1 drops for gempalm. Hopefully someone else will test this and tell me how they do, so far the deck feels very different in play than it did when I was goldfishing.
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UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
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It may seem like it, but you're actually just as likely to top deck land when you draw with half your library (and half your land) in your GY. What's going on is that you're dredging all the time and well, obviously you're getting a creature then rather than your top deck and hence no land. I suggest making room for 4 Grim Discovery and swapping 4 of your Swamps for Barren Moor. This gives you some more flexibility, both being able to save a Stinkweed Imp from GY hate by dredging at instant speed, and getting back some lands and dudes that you dredged. I'd say that with the cost from TortEx, you definetely want to hit 4 mana anyway, so you should play 4 Undead Servant. You can probably forget about Merchant though.
I wouldn't worry about 1-drops to max out on early pollutors. Think of them as bad draw spells that let you dredge at instant speed when needed. Only bother with recurring them once you have resolved an Undead Servant or have an otherwise strong board presence.
Nameless Inversion and Ghoulcaller's Chant is tried and tested cheese. Very good removal with StImpy in there too. I think you should definetely run it over Shambling Goblin. If you do, you might as well take out Carrion Feeder too. So, I'd recommend:
-4 Shambling Goblin
-4 Carrion Feeder
-4 Swamp
+4 Barren Moor
+4 Grim Discovery
+4 Undead Servant
Also, is Shambling Shell being a zombie relevant? Otherwise I'd swap it for Golgari Brownscale as you're never playing either, and you could probably use the extra life more than the one more dredge. This is a really interesting deck IMO!
A series of seven articles using Magic to explore the very stuff of the Universe!
"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
The solution is simple: You just need to know when to dredge and when not to. If you dredge all the time, you'll never see a land again. With that in mind, you need to ask yourself if it isn't more worthwhile to just draw a card (even if you're not looking for a land) rather than get an imp or something back.
Dredging properly actually takes a lot of practice and skill!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
The dredge thing is how long does it take to pay for an angler, because an early angler is often a game won. However the golgari healing is effectively two extra HP a turn, which is nothing to scoff at.
4 Nameless Inversion
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Brownscale
4 Tortured Existence
4 Grave Scrabbler
4 Ghoulcaller's Chant
2 Grim Discovery
4 Undead Servant
16 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
4 Nameless Inversion
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Brownscale
4 Rotting Rats
4 Viscera Dragger
4 Ghoulcaller's Chant
4 Gempalm Polluter
16 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
4 Nameless Inversion
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Brownscale
4 Rotting Rats
4 Twisted Abomination
4 Ghoulcaller's Chant
4 Tortured Existence
16 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
Switching in Exhume feels right. I'm going to see about getting undead servant and gempalm polluter back, but this deck now has a substantial chance of doing something big right off the bat, and is capable of grinding the opponent out in the long run.
UB Wight Phantasm
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UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
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Enter Rotting Rats - it is a zombie and you can discard StImpy to it turn 2 while developing your board and disrupting your opponent. Chumping with it is only good for you - more discard outlets and more disruption for your opponent, and you can unearth it to up your zombie count for a late polluter.
You already have a better and easier to use repeatable discard outlet in Putrid Imp since it doesn't require a creature in the yard to get going, and you can get it back with your sorcery recursion spells if you dredge into it. IMO, the real problem is that there is no real substitute for StImpy's Dredge 5. Dredging 2 or even 3 is comparably underwhelming. When I've tried similar builds, I've always used green as a secondary color to get better GY developers (Satyr Wayfinder is my favorite, but Commune with the Gods would probably be better for you if you stick with zombies and tortex, or Grisly Salvage if you don't want TortEx). That way you can dig for StImp if you don't have one in your opener (which is the case some 60% of the time) - and importantly develop the board with chumpers while doing so.
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
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Every rendition of this deck folds to aggro like wet cardboard, and I can't fix it without abandoning the end game...
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
[Click here for the articles!]
In only one game did they even get an optimal starting hand, playing three 2/2s on turn 0 while I durdled a putrid imp into play. My Nameless Inversion got stripped out by a hymn to tourach, and I never saw a stinkweed imp in that round.
I also played against a janky bounce token deck which seemed almost custom built for beating this deck, but I won't go into that because it isn't going to show up outside of my play group.
The third deck I tested against was a G/W Midnight Gond combo deck.
Game one went:
Turn 1: Putrid Imp, trash stinkweed imp at end of opponent's turn. They played a creature.
Turn 2: Dredge 5, play second swamp, angler.
Turn 3: Dredge 5, play angler.
Turn 4: Dredge 5, Angler. Opponent concedes.
Board in my abominations, I figure quick kills are the name of the game here.
Game Two:
Turn 1: I play nada. They play a Dryad Militant
Turn 2: Cycle twisted abomination. They durdle.
Turn 3: Exhume, twisted abomination is alive! Opponent plays Heliod's Pilgrim, grabs Presence of Gond.
Turn 4: I play a ravenous rat and attack with my abomination, they play a Midnight Guard. I have two swamps and a tapped barren moor, they have three lands.
Turn 5: I Nameless Inversion their Midnight Guard, attack with my abomination and rat. They play another Midnight Guard on their turn.
Turn 6: Dryad Militant exiled my Nameless Inversion so my Ghoulcaller's chant can't pull it back, they go infinite on their turn.
Turn 7: Game ends.
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UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
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UB Wight Phantasm
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UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
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[card]
Gempalm Polluter[/card] is kind of weak, not sure what to put in its place. I would run Gary but I feel like the mana can't take it.
This deck has a lot of combos and synergies as the game goes on.
1. 2 Golgari Brownscales with a tortured existence = 2 life per mana spent, over and over again.
2. 1 Golgari Brownscale with a tortured existence= 1 life per mana spent, much weaker but still frequently a game winner.
3. Dredge creatures + Gempalm Polluter: Dredge 2-5 cards for every 3 mana spent, with Golgari Brownscale gain life, with zombies in play deal damage.
4. Crypt Rat with any way to recur it + Golgari Brownscales = our very own evincar's justice.
5. Nameless Inversion + Ghoulcaller's Chant= recursive kill spell.
Gravescrabbler goes in over Ghoulcaller's chant vs. control, since you get a creature and a draw that cannot be countered.
4 Nameless Inversion
4 Undead Servant
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Brownscale
4 Rotting Rats
4 Crypt Rats
4 Ghoulcaller's Chant
2 Death Denied
2 Gempalm Polluter
16 Swamp
4 Barren Moor
[card]
Infernal Caretaker[/card] might be better than death denied, but 8 mana is a lot more than I think anyone can do in one turn. It can be brought back from the grave though, and puts more cards back.
UB Wight Phantasm
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