As the thread title says, I'm looking for ways to abuse the few cascade cards we have in Pauper. Since we have no cards that we can cheat like Hypergenesis, Ancestral Vision or Restore Balance, we have currently two paths: to go through the value way a-la Jund or BUG cascade by simply generating the maximum value with Captured Sunlight, ETB creatures and maybe Stormcaller's Boon to give the team evasion for the final swing, or we could try something like Living End. Although I haven't tested with this, I think it's a rather weak deck in the current meta, but it looks fun and perhaps we can find similar avenues like this one:
This is a very basic sketch. We use cards that bypass normal CMC's in order to not interfere with Exhume so we have a plan B. We can Unearth the Dragger, and we can cast removal spells via alternative costs. We could also use suspend creatures like Durkwood Baloth or Errant Ephemeron and Rift Bolt as a telegraphed Lightning Bolt. Splashes are also not a problem since we can run very powerful cyclers like Pale Recluse, Krosan Tusker or Shoreline Ranger as fixing and powerful reanimation targets on their own.
How would you exploit cascade, be it improving this build, taking different "combo" avenues or generating value like Jund would do?
A very interesting list. Have you considered splashing Green so you can use Violent Outburst with Demonic Dread? A 3-3 split can end up adding some consistency to you strategy. Not to mention that Outburst is an Instant, so you could combo off at the end of your opponent's turn.
I know the Modern Hypergenesis decks that run a similar plan use Spirit Guides for ramp/fixing, so you should try the Pauper Guide Simian Spirit Guide.
It's a very interesting idea. Plus we can play Durkwood Baloth and Giant Dustwasp as backup plans. Cards that circumvent their CMC one way or the other are a must, and Spinning Darkness is pretty good at recovering the life we lose early turns and cycling Street Wraith
About the combo, I'd rather run a 4-2 split since as you mentioned, Outburst is an instant, and with 6 cascade cards and so much cycling, you will draw one either way.
A blue splash with Shoreline Ranger and Errant Ephemeron coupled with a 3+ CMC counter that you can play an alternante cost for like Daze or FoW can be good too.
Finally, Morph cards like Gathan Raiders, which also happens to be a discard outlet, can be an interesting avenue to explore. We're getting some gas in KTK so I think it is a safe bet.
Are Dragger, Minotaur and Wraith really creatures you would want to Exhume? Their stats seem so subpar.
I like the Gathan Raiders idea, though. I also second the Spirit guides. Getting that Cascade or cycle early would be oh so good.
The idea's really original! I would just concentrate more on the two better cyclers, Jungle Weaver and Twisted Abomination. Splashing colours could also be really easy with the other parts of the cycle like Shoreline Ranger.
Dragger is there because he can be Unearthed for a swing as backup. Wraith is free cycling and Minotaur is turn 1 cycling which survives Bolt and brings down a flyer so is more of an anti-Delver tech.
What does White offer? With it we could use Pale Recluse instead of Jungle Weaver. It has lesser stats but it still retains a key 5 toughness and enough power to be relevant.
This deck looks awesome. I've been looking it over and it seems green is the best color to splash for this deck and I'll explain and forgive me, but this is a long post cause I've been looking over this for a day or two now and I have a lot of thoughts about this deck. Green has good cyclers to target with Exhume (Krosan Tusker and Wirewood Guardian), good suspend cards (Durkwood Baloth, Giant Dustwasp, and Search for Tomorrow), and it gives you access to another cascade card, Violent Outburst, without having to leave Red or Black. Plus, green gives you access to Gnaw to the Bone which would be a major help against aggro decks.
While Blue and White give this deck access to good utility cards, and blue gives access to some decent creatures, the cards just aren't good enough. While white gives you a lot of good side board material, its 2 best cycling creatures just aren't very impactful. And while Blue has 2 decent suspend creatures (despite the Infiltrator's 1 toughness), its best cycling creature has a restriction built on to it. Plus, some of the cards white and blue offer interfere with the main combo of the deck (cascade into exhume).
What I like about this deck is that it can be played from so many different angles. It can easily be a 2 or 3 color deck and still work. It can take on almost any other color and just attack from so many different angles that I can't help but start running my hands together like a maniac thinking of all the different ways I can build this deck. Sure, the best builds for this deck will have black in them (cause Snuff Out and Spinning Darkness are good removal spells that don't interfere with the cascade spells and hardcasting Exhume is going to be needed sometimes), but the fact that it can work without Black is just awesome.
One more thing. Dragon Wings, while it gets in the way of cascade, is just such a cool thing to pull off when you Exhume a 6+ mana creature.
Pretty good points Aeschylus! I totally agree with keeping this a Jund list since blue and white would on;y take up spell space with sub-par cards. Sure they have good cycling cards, but the best ones are non-creatures and that pulls the deck away from the main strategy of "Dump creatures then Cascade ftw!"
Wirewood Guardian is a good catch since it's a very big creature!
@Zephyr: I'd stay away from the 4 mana Cascade cards. Sure, they can gain you life or potentially give your guys evasion for the win, but I'd rather have the early turn ones, especially if you decide to use the Spirit Guide. Using the 4 mana ones will also force you to cut some choice, like Snuff Out, that would mess with the Cascade.
Pretty good points Aeschylus! I totally agree with keeping this a Jund list since blue and white would on;y take up spell space with sub-par cards. Sure they have good cycling cards, but the best ones are non-creatures and that pulls the deck away from the main strategy of "Dump creatures then Cascade ftw!"
Wirewood Guardian is a good catch since it's a very big creature!
Thanks! This deck looks pretty cool so I've been looking over all the options so I can build a deck and test it out. While Jund would be the best way for this deck to play, I think the second best option would be a Naya build. You can keep the key Red and Green cards while also gaining access to using Pale Recluse. Even though losing Black is tough, Red does give some good cycling and suspend options in: Macetail Hystrodon, Scrap, Solar Blast, Keldon Halberdier, Plunder, and Rift Bolt. The two biggest problem the Naya build has is the inability to hardcast Exhume and the second is the cascade card, Captured Sunlight. While White and Red can give some removal to make up for losing Black, Captured Sunlight is just too expensive. Being 4 mana means it would hit almost any of the White or Red removal spells added in. While Red does have alternate cost removal like Black, it's not worth it. Look at Fireblast for example. It has the two requirements we need, bigger than the cascade cards and an alternate cost, but saccing lands isn't something we want to do.
One card that should be in any green version of this deck is Krosan Tusker. It's either an instant speed divination or a 6/5 creature
Oh yeah. Snuff Out and the 4-mana cascade spells are ok together since cascade only works on spells that cost less.
Thanks! This deck looks pretty cool so I've been looking over all the options so I can build a deck and test it out. While Jund would be the best way for this deck to play, I think the second best option would be a Naya build. You can keep the key Red and Green cards while also gaining access to using Pale Recluse. Even though losing Black is tough, Red does give some good cycling and suspend options in: Macetail Hystrodon, Scrap, Solar Blast, Keldon Halberdier, Plunder, and Rift Bolt. The two biggest problem the Naya build has is the inability to hardcast Exhume and the second is the cascade card, Captured Sunlight. While White and Red can give some removal to make up for losing Black, Captured Sunlight is just too expensive. Being 4 mana means it would hit almost any of the White or Red removal spells added in. While Red does have alternate cost removal like Black, it's not worth it. Look at Fireblast for example. It has the two requirements we need, bigger than the cascade cards and an alternate cost, but saccing lands isn't something we want to do.
One card that should be in any green version of this deck is Krosan Tusker. It's either an instant speed divination or a 6/5 creature
Oh yeah. Snuff Out and the 4-mana cascade spells are ok together since cascade only works on spells that cost less.
I forgot that equal costs are okay with Cascade. Duh!
If you have a list of your own, I'd love to see it! You should post it here so we won't have a redundant thread. I'm sure another list would help Zephyr and get us discussing more options. I'm also impressed with the look of the deck and would love to see some variety for Cascade decks, especially if they're competitive!
I must I have played around with reanimate decks in Pauper quite a bit, and I've yet to come across a deck that can do it so reliably. Fantastic!
I've been testing quite extensively against Delver, without much success. They have so much countermagic that it is quite difficult to get by them. On top of fighting through Snap... Yuck. What's nice is that almost every single one of the cyclers I chose can be hardcast, giving the deck a very reliable end-game. The land cycling abilities are extremely welcome in this 3-colour deck.
Reliability is definitely the thing that makes me interested in these lists. The fact that we now have 12 copies of Exhume in the deck is amazing!
I definitely see Delver as a big problem. We want to get our combo going ASAP so Dazes slow us down. And as mentioned, Snap is a problem too. But as you said the creatures can be hardcast later or they can be cycled to find more Cascade/Exhumes, so we play some attrition here. An effect like Battlefield Scrounger's or Conjurer's Bauble would be nice for the deck to keep getting Exhumes back in the deck, but I don't think there's anything that will fit our strategy to do this for us.
The all-in build is good, but I feel you can drop your creature count a bit to add in some protection/tech. Not sure which options you'd like, but You can definitely pick from any of the ones mentioned previously.
My method of abusing Cascade was in my Riku of Two Reflections EDH. I would cast a Cascade spell, copy it with Riku while I have something like Possibility Storm, so the Cascade trigger would happen, I would copy the spell w/ Riku, let Cascade or Storm resolve, copy the spell cast from that, and then let the other ability resolve, copying the spell cast from that.
If you get enough Cascades going, you can use Possibility Storm a LOT and keep copying the spells with Riku. Fun times are usually had when this happens.
Fun times.
EDIT: did NOT see the forum I was posting in. came straight here from the main page. Apologies.
Mods, feel free to delete. I will take this to a more appropriate forum.
You've got a good point, Darkninja. Some recursion effects to salvage Exhume would be nice, but besides the two you mentioned, I can only find 2 other cards in pauper that can do something similar: Grazing Kelpie and Nantuko Tracer. The problem with these four cards is that they don't fit our deck well at all. The Scrounger and Kelpie have to be hardcast and the Tracer and Bauble interfere with cascade. Out of all of these cards, the Conjurer's Bauble would probably be best. While it interferes with cascade, it does have a few things going for it: it costs only 1, has no activation cost, can be activated at any time, and draws us a card. I'd try it out, but only as a 1 or 2 of.
Let's not forget Black has Corpulent Corpse, which has inferior stats to Durkwood Baloth, but it has evasion, feeds Spinning Darkness, and it can be easier to cast than Baloth since Black is a central color to the deck.
@Darkninja: The 4 CMC Cascade cards are not for this deck, but for a value Cascade deck that generates value through 2-for-1s
I think Exhume is too weak of a spell in Pauper to really make this deck fly. Almost any aggro deck will produce a more formidable board presence in three turns than a single Twisted Abomination. Living End sweeps and mass ressurects - exhume with pauper dudes barely breaks even. What other 0-2 cmc cards would be broken in more than 4-ofs to such an extent that we can accept durdling on turns 1-2? Hymn to Tourach? Merchant Scroll?
Another thing with Cascade is that you can cast the more expensive half of a split card for free even if the cascade triggers off of the cheaper half. Any potential for abuse in pauper/peasant there?
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I like it, kcd111! Thanks for the great suggestion! I hadn't thought of Crypt Rats in here, but I think it's just what the deck needs! I'll go -4 Plowbeast, +3 Crypt Rats, +1 Gnaw to the Bone and see how that flies!
I wish some of these guys had evasion, though. At least Trample... It's a bit harsh to go through this reanimation process only to get chump-blocked and tempo'ed.
Urdjur,
You may be right. An important thing you've hit on here is just how versatile the Cascade ability can be. We can pick and choose what card we want to have 12 copies of, provided it costs 2 or less. Which card would be the most broken, though?
I'm not sure if there's anything better to break than Exhume. Urdjur's point is correct that it is somewhat weak, but at the same time it's the best one to build around since we can control it and it leads to a win con. What else can do that for 2 mana? Is there even anything that does that at 3 mana for decks running the 4 mana Cascade spells? If we were outside of Pauper there are good options, but at that point you might as well go with the Hypergenesis plan and run Emrakul or Griselbrand.
After seeing this thread develop, I've come to a conclusion: This deck looks solid, but brewing it paints us in a corner. There's too many requirements. We need cycling creatures because we can't use the usual cards like Faithless Looting to dump Exhume targets. The creatures also have to be 3 or more mana so they don't stop Cascade, but also need to be big enough to be worth the effort. All of our extra tech has to be 3 or more mana as well, so we look for the alt cost spells like Snuff Out.
Your new list looks better with Crypt Rats since that gives you extra protection early on.
You still cast the Suspend card except without Suspending it. This is a common trick with Cascade as a way to immediately cheat out certain Suspend cards.
If I understand the interactions correctly, cascade into Sprout Swarm works nicely. You can convoke the buyback if you have 3 creatures in play. Problem is getting enough creatures in play without having 1 or 2 drops. Khalni Garden works but is there anything else we could do?
4 Street Wraith
4 Viscera Dragger
4 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Monstrous Carabid
3 Twisted Abomination
2 Jungle Weaver
3 Chartooth Cougar
4 Demonic Dread
4 Exhume
Instant (6)
3 Snuff Out
3 Spinning Darkness
14 Swamp
6 Mountain
2 Rakdos Guildgate
This is a very basic sketch. We use cards that bypass normal CMC's in order to not interfere with Exhume so we have a plan B. We can Unearth the Dragger, and we can cast removal spells via alternative costs. We could also use suspend creatures like Durkwood Baloth or Errant Ephemeron and Rift Bolt as a telegraphed Lightning Bolt. Splashes are also not a problem since we can run very powerful cyclers like Pale Recluse, Krosan Tusker or Shoreline Ranger as fixing and powerful reanimation targets on their own.
How would you exploit cascade, be it improving this build, taking different "combo" avenues or generating value like Jund would do?
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I know the Modern Hypergenesis decks that run a similar plan use Spirit Guides for ramp/fixing, so you should try the Pauper Guide Simian Spirit Guide.
About the combo, I'd rather run a 4-2 split since as you mentioned, Outburst is an instant, and with 6 cascade cards and so much cycling, you will draw one either way.
A blue splash with Shoreline Ranger and Errant Ephemeron coupled with a 3+ CMC counter that you can play an alternante cost for like Daze or FoW can be good too.
Finally, Morph cards like Gathan Raiders, which also happens to be a discard outlet, can be an interesting avenue to explore. We're getting some gas in KTK so I think it is a safe bet.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I like the Gathan Raiders idea, though. I also second the Spirit guides. Getting that Cascade or cycle early would be oh so good.
The idea's really original! I would just concentrate more on the two better cyclers, Jungle Weaver and Twisted Abomination. Splashing colours could also be really easy with the other parts of the cycle like Shoreline Ranger.
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What does White offer? With it we could use Pale Recluse instead of Jungle Weaver. It has lesser stats but it still retains a key 5 toughness and enough power to be relevant.
And what about Stormcaller's Boon or Captured Sunlight? What do they have to offer?
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
This deck can also work as any of the other shard colors because each color combo gives you access to 2 cascade spells. Unlike a Jund build of this deck, The others don't seem as strong. First off, let me list off good suspend cards, cycling cards, and cards with alternate casting costs that white and blue have. White has: Angelsong, Disciple of Grace, Disciple of Law, Gilded Light, Marshaling Cry, Noble Templar, Radiant's Judgment, Renewed Faith, the Rune of Protection cycle, and Yoked Plowbeast.
Blue gives you: Errant Ephemeron, Infiltrator Il-Kor , Choking Tethers, Cloud of Faeries, Dragon Wings, Miscalculation, Shoreline Ranger, Slipstream Eel, Veiled Serpent, Daze, and Gush.
While Blue and White give this deck access to good utility cards, and blue gives access to some decent creatures, the cards just aren't good enough. While white gives you a lot of good side board material, its 2 best cycling creatures just aren't very impactful. And while Blue has 2 decent suspend creatures (despite the Infiltrator's 1 toughness), its best cycling creature has a restriction built on to it. Plus, some of the cards white and blue offer interfere with the main combo of the deck (cascade into exhume).
What I like about this deck is that it can be played from so many different angles. It can easily be a 2 or 3 color deck and still work. It can take on almost any other color and just attack from so many different angles that I can't help but start running my hands together like a maniac thinking of all the different ways I can build this deck. Sure, the best builds for this deck will have black in them (cause Snuff Out and Spinning Darkness are good removal spells that don't interfere with the cascade spells and hardcasting Exhume is going to be needed sometimes), but the fact that it can work without Black is just awesome.
One more thing. Dragon Wings, while it gets in the way of cascade, is just such a cool thing to pull off when you Exhume a 6+ mana creature.
Wirewood Guardian is a good catch since it's a very big creature!
@Zephyr: I'd stay away from the 4 mana Cascade cards. Sure, they can gain you life or potentially give your guys evasion for the win, but I'd rather have the early turn ones, especially if you decide to use the Spirit Guide. Using the 4 mana ones will also force you to cut some choice, like Snuff Out, that would mess with the Cascade.
Thanks! This deck looks pretty cool so I've been looking over all the options so I can build a deck and test it out. While Jund would be the best way for this deck to play, I think the second best option would be a Naya build. You can keep the key Red and Green cards while also gaining access to using Pale Recluse. Even though losing Black is tough, Red does give some good cycling and suspend options in: Macetail Hystrodon, Scrap, Solar Blast, Keldon Halberdier, Plunder, and Rift Bolt. The two biggest problem the Naya build has is the inability to hardcast Exhume and the second is the cascade card, Captured Sunlight. While White and Red can give some removal to make up for losing Black, Captured Sunlight is just too expensive. Being 4 mana means it would hit almost any of the White or Red removal spells added in. While Red does have alternate cost removal like Black, it's not worth it. Look at Fireblast for example. It has the two requirements we need, bigger than the cascade cards and an alternate cost, but saccing lands isn't something we want to do.
One card that should be in any green version of this deck is Krosan Tusker. It's either an instant speed divination or a 6/5 creature
Oh yeah. Snuff Out and the 4-mana cascade spells are ok together since cascade only works on spells that cost less.
I forgot that equal costs are okay with Cascade. Duh!
If you have a list of your own, I'd love to see it! You should post it here so we won't have a redundant thread. I'm sure another list would help Zephyr and get us discussing more options. I'm also impressed with the look of the deck and would love to see some variety for Cascade decks, especially if they're competitive!
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
4 Exhume
Cyclers (24)
4 Wirewood Guardian
4 Twisted Abomination
4 Krosan Tusker
4 Jungle Weaver
4 Yoked Plowbeast
4 Deadshot Minotaur
1 Gnaw to the Bone
Lands (23)
5 Swamp
6 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Terramorphic Expanse
I must I have played around with reanimate decks in Pauper quite a bit, and I've yet to come across a deck that can do it so reliably. Fantastic!
I've been testing quite extensively against Delver, without much success. They have so much countermagic that it is quite difficult to get by them. On top of fighting through Snap... Yuck. What's nice is that almost every single one of the cyclers I chose can be hardcast, giving the deck a very reliable end-game. The land cycling abilities are extremely welcome in this 3-colour deck.
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Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I definitely see Delver as a big problem. We want to get our combo going ASAP so Dazes slow us down. And as mentioned, Snap is a problem too. But as you said the creatures can be hardcast later or they can be cycled to find more Cascade/Exhumes, so we play some attrition here. An effect like Battlefield Scrounger's or Conjurer's Bauble would be nice for the deck to keep getting Exhumes back in the deck, but I don't think there's anything that will fit our strategy to do this for us.
The all-in build is good, but I feel you can drop your creature count a bit to add in some protection/tech. Not sure which options you'd like, but You can definitely pick from any of the ones mentioned previously.
If you get enough Cascades going, you can use Possibility Storm a LOT and keep copying the spells with Riku. Fun times are usually had when this happens.
Fun times.
EDIT: did NOT see the forum I was posting in. came straight here from the main page. Apologies.
Mods, feel free to delete. I will take this to a more appropriate forum.
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@Darkninja: The 4 CMC Cascade cards are not for this deck, but for a value Cascade deck that generates value through 2-for-1s
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
Another thing with Cascade is that you can cast the more expensive half of a split card for free even if the cascade triggers off of the cheaper half. Any potential for abuse in pauper/peasant there?
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"At least for those who can play cards, their present incarnation is not quite wasted."
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I wish some of these guys had evasion, though. At least Trample... It's a bit harsh to go through this reanimation process only to get chump-blocked and tempo'ed.
Urdjur,
You may be right. An important thing you've hit on here is just how versatile the Cascade ability can be. We can pick and choose what card we want to have 12 copies of, provided it costs 2 or less. Which card would be the most broken, though?
Here's an updated list:
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
4 Exhume
Cyclers (23)
4 Wirewood Guardian
4 Twisted Abomination
4 Krosan Tusker
4 Jungle Weaver
4 Deadshot Minotaur
3 Crypt Rats
2 Gnaw to the Bone
Lands (23)
5 Swamp
6 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Terramorphic Expanse
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
After seeing this thread develop, I've come to a conclusion: This deck looks solid, but brewing it paints us in a corner. There's too many requirements. We need cycling creatures because we can't use the usual cards like Faithless Looting to dump Exhume targets. The creatures also have to be 3 or more mana so they don't stop Cascade, but also need to be big enough to be worth the effort. All of our extra tech has to be 3 or more mana as well, so we look for the alt cost spells like Snuff Out.
Your new list looks better with Crypt Rats since that gives you extra protection early on.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio