I've been playing a previous version of this deck with Prophet of Kruphix & Deadeye Navigator in a blue/green build.
It's generally not fun to play against, as once you land Prophet the deck is very hard to beat with it's Mystic Snake's, Aether Adept's and the like. Whenever I've slapped the deck out, people groan and ask me to never play it again, despite my win percentage these days being poor across all the varied decks I play, simply due to it stopping everyone else from actually playing magic...
This time around I want to base it around the artifacts above instead, so the deck can be a lot more open to playing anything I want.
I have no loyalty to any particular colours, although I realise blue/green has some serious tools.
So!
With the core cards above, which cards would you want to play with?
Which colours would you focus on?
Any special cards that really shine here?
Siege Rhino feels like the most obvious choice to me but Wurmcoil Engine or DupliCAN could be good too, since you're focused on artifacts. I'm sure others will have better ideas. Don't do this. Just...don't.
Been looking a deck just like this, actually. Thought about God-Pharaoh's Gift too.. I mean...sure.
Well, if there's going to be bounce of some kind, a understated creature stopper is Polymorphist's Jest, allowing you to nullify an opponent's entire army and either sweep them with a low damage Pyroclasm-like deal, or just stomp the previously dangerous frogs so they don't revert back. Eternal Witness brings that back, and bounce brings back the Witness. Then Mystic Snake also bounces back for use. I personally like Species Gorger for that role. It's not as insane as the deadeye, so your friends may appreciate it better.
Lol, if they are groaning about Prophet, don't you think they're going to throw dice and votive stones at him for multiple Primodial triggers? I would.
I run an Abzan Panharmonicon deck i like to call "Standard All-Stars" because it abuses things like Thragtusk and Siege Rhino, along with Sylvan Primordial, Acidic Slime, Kitchen Finks, etc. It's pretty formidable. Instead of using all four Panharmonicon, I like running a split between it and Conjurer's Closet. I really think that the two are better together than alone.
I've always liked the idea of abusing multiplicative interactions like this in theory, but never put it into practice because I probably wouldn't really enjoy doing math and keeping track of a token swarm over drinks.
I've always liked the idea of abusing multiplicative interactions like this in theory, but never put it into practice because I probably wouldn't really enjoy doing math and keeping track of a token swarm over drinks.
I like Panharmonicon & Conjurer's Closet together more than Blade combined with either, since Blade wants to be more specifically supported (Puresteel Paladin, artifact lands, and however many Stoneforge Mystics you feel like) while the other two could pretty much be thrown into any creature deck I'd play & do good things. Blade is absolutely bonkers with drainers, swinging once with Siege Rhino, Gary, or Kokusho is pretty much GG already, and Massacre Wurm is a nice one-sided board wipe that can kill creature based decks, but if you are just playing value creatures like Cloudblazer & Thragtusk it's probably not worth the effort.
I like Panharmonicon & Conjurer's Closet together more than Blade combined with either, since Blade wants to be more specifically supported... while the other two could pretty much be thrown into any creature deck I'd play & do good things.
Huh? Why? I've been absolutely blown away with the Blade in creature-based value decks of all colors, shapes and sizes. You don't need to do jack squat to specifically support it.
Sorry chiefdrana, I'm with Prid3 on this one;
Blade and panhard can certainly benefit from conjuror's closet, but IME blade is far stronger given that I usually play in 4-6 player games these days. The exception of course, is if you're also playing with things like Glacial Chasm or expect your opponents to regularly slap down Magus of the Moat-style perms.
Siege Rhino feels like the most obvious choice to me but Wurmcoil Engine or DupliCAN could be good too, since you're focused on artifacts. I'm sure others will have better ideas. Don't do this. Just...don't.
Been looking a deck just like this, actually. Thought about God-Pharaoh's Gift too.. I mean...sure.
Dupli-Can? Oh I see what you did there. LOL
2x Duplicant was in my deck aswell, FWIW, and will continue to be, it's just such an awesome choice with either Blade or Panhard.
I don't currently own Wurmcoil - awesome card but out of my price range.
Lol, if they are groaning about Prophet, don't you think they're going to throw dice and votive stones at him for multiple Primodial triggers? I would.
Yeah, LOL, Primordial was in there, and was usually my finisher that had people rage quit. Funny that...
Ranger of Eos has a little promise of those, but I'm not sure there's many (if any) 1-drops with ETB effects I care about.
I guess things like Tinder Wall, Wild Cantor, Taunting Elf, Vexing Devil etc. could work on some level, but it's not really where I want to be with an ETB focussed deck.
Visionary & Coiling Oracle have featured heavily in my Blade decks of the past. I've never tried Blade or Panhard with goblins, part of me is wondering how silly Goblin matron & Goblin ringleader could become.... hyuk!
Blade of Selves is a great multiplayer card, but if you aren't getting free equip I like it better in EDH or as a 1 of that's nice if I need it than something I'm playing 4 of & absolutely relying on to win. It's just really really slow in a 60 card deck if you are paying to equip something that isn't already seriously broken (ie Gray Merchant of Asphodel) and aren't getting damage triggers from Purphoros, God of the Forge or Warstorm Surge. If your plan is to spent 4 mana to equip something like Mulldrifter, sure you might draw 6 or 8 extra cards once or twice, which is nothing to sneeze at, but using 11 mana & 8 card slots to hopefully make this work on turn 6 doesn't seem like one of the better ways to actually win a game of Magic to me. I'd rather play Consecrated Sphinx for 6 mana or even Recurring Insight & use the 4 other card slots & 5 mana for something that's going to get me close to winning the game, I mean Time Warp is 5 mana. For something more budget friendly, Temur Ascendancy plus Warchief Giant & Caller of the Pack is more reliable card draw because of the haste & puts a lot more damage through. Obviously Blade would be obnoxious with that, but again, you only have so many card slots. Even if you are going for something quicker like Elvish Visionary, turn 2 Visionary, turn 3 Blade of Selves, turn 4 equip & maybe get a point of damage through plus draw 3, then someone casts Wrath of God so you have to cast another creature turn 5 then wait until turn 6 to equip & swing again for a few more points of damage. Then someone shoots you for 50 with Aetherflux Reservoir...
Blade of Selves is a great multiplayer card, but if you aren't getting free equip I like it better in EDH or as a 1 of that's nice if I need it than something I'm playing 4 of & absolutely relying on to win. It's just really really slow in a 60 card deck if you are paying to equip something that isn't already seriously broken (ie Gray Merchant of Asphodel) and aren't getting damage triggers from Purphoros, God of the Forge or Warstorm Surge. If your plan is to spent 4 mana to equip something like Mulldrifter, sure you might draw 6 or 8 extra cards once or twice, which is nothing to sneeze at, but using 11 mana & 8 card slots to hopefully make this work on turn 6 doesn't seem like one of the better ways to actually win a game of Magic to me. I'd rather play Consecrated Sphinx for 6 mana or even Recurring Insight & use the 4 other card slots & 5 mana for something that's going to get me close to winning the game, I mean Time Warp is 5 mana. For something more budget friendly, Temur Ascendancy plus Warchief Giant & Caller of the Pack is more reliable card draw because of the haste & puts a lot more damage through. Obviously Blade would be obnoxious with that, but again, you only have so many card slots. Even if you are going for something quicker like Elvish Visionary, turn 2 Visionary, turn 3 Blade of Selves, turn 4 equip & maybe get a point of damage through plus draw 3, then someone casts Wrath of God so you have to cast another creature turn 5 then wait until turn 6 to equip & swing again for a few more points of damage. Then someone shoots you for 50 with Aetherflux Reservoir...
I don't agree with most of this.
1. If your bar for playable value is Consecrated Sphinx then kiss 99.9999999% of the card base goodbye. It's what? The 5th best multiplayer creature in the entire game? We can sit here all day listen cards worse than Conq Sphinx or, alternatively, we can have a discussion that's actually worth having.
2. If people are doing broken Aetheflux Reservoir shenanigans and Death Staring the entire table on turn 4-6 then none of the cards that you listed are viable either. That is, you can't say "N loses to turn 2 Waste Not turn 3 Windfall" and then post an alternative strategy that loses to the exact same line.
3. You can't knock a card because it inherently uses deck slots. We are not trying to combo exactly Blade with exactly Mulldrifter. We are willing to pair Blade with ANY creature. It's not like it's a dead draw in anything but extreme use-cases.
4. Is the Blade riskier than certain alternatives? Sure. It's slow and mana intensive. That's a thing. Still, it can also read "put 4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel into play every turn." People need to realize that not everyone plays in >=4 player games and that for some us cards like this are utterly bonkers given the increased player count. Medium risk cards are fine as long as they have a high payoff and the reward is well worth the cost in this scenario.
What I do agree with is that 4x PanHam and 4x BoS is overkill. I would personally play 4 total (max 5) split among them. After all, you can virtually never afford to equip more than one every 2 circuits and so multiples are dubious at best. Given enough rampers then sure but generally speaking you don't have the mana to support too many copies at once. That is, I would never play 4 copies of the card myself and so I'm not arguing that it's overkill. I just don't agree with you that BoS needs special treatment to be bonkers. I play 1 in all of my creature decks and I couldn't envision a world in which I cut it.
So yeah, 4x Panhard & 4x Blade is most definitely overkill - sure, I accept that.
What I'm looking at is always having one in hand I can sandbag and then land post-wipe, as non-creature wipes are fairly well expected from certain decks I face all the time. That said, dropping to 6 (for me) will probably be where I end up.
If your plan is to spent 4 mana to equip something like Mulldrifter, sure you might draw 6 or 8 extra cards once or twice, which is nothing to sneeze at, but using 11 mana & 8 card slots to hopefully make this work on turn 6 doesn't seem like one of the better ways to actually win a game of Magic to me.
Not so much. Mulldrifter isn't where I wanna be here.
The reason why I'm asking for idea's is because my previous version's have literally sucked the life out of a game and caused people to moan. So if you have a less brutal way of using blade/panhard that doesn't just go thermo-nuclear, and is based on fun interactions, I'm all ears.
If however you're saying I'm not looking to get the best out of these artifacts, you're probably right, but I am looking for idea's I may not have considered before. I've done oppressive with these artifacts already, and seen the eye-rolls from across the table.
FWIW, I do play competitive MTG on occasion, but when I play multiplayer I like to have a laugh more than win, so quite a few of my MP decks have mutated from optimized monsters to semi-casual decks full of suboptimal choices for the sake of giving everyone else a bit of elbow room.
So if you have a less brutal way of using blade/panhard that doesn't just go thermo-nuclear, and is based on fun interactions, I'm all ears.
The obvious answer is to avoid global effects and stick to "regular" ETB triggers such as Flametongue Kavu and Thragtusk. That way you're not sucking the life out of the table but you'll still doing something "that matters." At that point you're basically on a "greedy" duel deck which should be close enough to where you want the power-level to be. Obviously duping Garys and Sylvan-fathers is the way to go if you want to win which is why you should stick to regular baddies like Inferno Titan.
I definitely understand trying to aim for a sweet spot power-wise where you can compete but not make your friends groan at what your deck is doing. But I think that it's going to be really hard to hit that balance if you're running both Panharmonicon and Blade of Selves. There's just too much variance. The former multiplies an ETB effect by two and the latter by five (if you're in a six-player game like you mentioned.)
One way to live with that variance would be to build around creatures where their ETB effects don't generate any value beyond a certain point. I like Prid3's suggestion of Flametongue Kavu in that regard. There are only so many creatures you can hit with those 4-damage triggers, so the top end for FtK is basically like casting a Blasphemous Act. The power of the interaction never goes above the level of a card that Wizards has actually printed.
On the other hand, take something like Thragtusk--which isn't even the most oppressive creature you could be using. Say that you have Panharmonicon out and swing with a blade-equipped Thragtusk. That nets you 50 life and another 30 power's-worth of creatures. There's no card in the game for any amount of mana that's that powerful.
So I guess that would be my suggestion if you don't want the deck to go too crazy. Either drop the blades or try to select creatures where the "upper limit" of what you might do is still a reasonable effect. Something like Farhaven Elf would be another example of those--you've only got so many basic lands to fetch out of your library before you've found them all so it's not too dissimilar from casting a Boundless Realms. Same goes for Eternal Witness; the "upper limit" is basically like casting a Praetor's Counsel.
Something like Farhaven Elf would be another example of those--you've only got so many basic lands to fetch out of your library before you've found them all so it's not too dissimilar from casting a Boundless Realms.
It's also worth noting that "Wood Elves" create a natural 2-3-4 curve with Blade of Selves that enables you to generate the mana required to ensure that you'll be able to abuse said Blade for the rest of the game. Its only significant drawback is the steep equip cost which is largely mitigated when you're ramping multiple extra lands into play on a routine basis.
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I definitely understand trying to aim for a sweet spot power-wise where you can compete but not make your friends groan at what your deck is doing. But I think that it's going to be really hard to hit that balance if you're running both Panharmonicon and Blade of Selves. There's just too much variance. The former multiplies an ETB effect by two and the latter by five (if you're in a six-player game like you mentioned.)
Exactly. Blade is a crazy card I'm surprised they printed. I agree the only way to guarantee the deck doesn't induce game-winning situations too early is to cut it completely. I may not do that....
It's also worth noting that "Wood Elves" create a natural 2-3-4 curve with Blade of Selves that enables you to generate the mana required to ensure that you'll be able to abuse said Blade for the rest of the game.
It's not shabby at all hey? Farhaven Elf, Wood Elves, & Eldrazi Skyspawner are all options I've used before (not at the same time)
Given that I usually play in 4-6 player games (sometimes larger);
A deck with 6-8 of these may potentially ignore 4-6 drops and focus on large-cmc with ETB effects or *attacks* effects, just chuck in a Fierce Empath and giddy up! The tricky part is finding cards that aren't going to actually win the game on the spot, without being stupidly bad... I dunno, there's not many group-hug types that I actually want to play (read: buy).
....and just because it made me giggle like a little girl, anyone brave enough to use Blade with Eater of Days? Ha ha!
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I want to play with a deck based around *enters the battlefield* effects.
The Core;
4x Panharmonicon
4x Blade of Selves
EDIT: +2 Duplicant
I've been playing a previous version of this deck with Prophet of Kruphix & Deadeye Navigator in a blue/green build.
It's generally not fun to play against, as once you land Prophet the deck is very hard to beat with it's Mystic Snake's, Aether Adept's and the like. Whenever I've slapped the deck out, people groan and ask me to never play it again, despite my win percentage these days being poor across all the varied decks I play, simply due to it stopping everyone else from actually playing magic...
This time around I want to base it around the artifacts above instead, so the deck can be a lot more open to playing anything I want.
I have no loyalty to any particular colours, although I realise blue/green has some serious tools.
So!
With the core cards above, which cards would you want to play with?
Which colours would you focus on?
Any special cards that really shine here?
Cheers.
Been looking a deck just like this, actually. Thought about God-Pharaoh's Gift too.. I mean...sure.
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Ok. Maybe some of those are a bit evil.
If you feel brave you can play Combustible Gearhulk but you might run out of cards...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I've always liked the idea of abusing multiplicative interactions like this in theory, but never put it into practice because I probably wouldn't really enjoy doing math and keeping track of a token swarm over drinks.
Smells like a job for Purphoros, God of the Forge (who gets multiple triggers with Panharmonicon too).
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Huh? Why? I've been absolutely blown away with the Blade in creature-based value decks of all colors, shapes and sizes. You don't need to do jack squat to specifically support it.
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Sorry chiefdrana, I'm with Prid3 on this one;
Blade and panhard can certainly benefit from conjuror's closet, but IME blade is far stronger given that I usually play in 4-6 player games these days. The exception of course, is if you're also playing with things like Glacial Chasm or expect your opponents to regularly slap down Magus of the Moat-style perms.
Dupli-Can? Oh I see what you did there. LOL
2x Duplicant was in my deck aswell, FWIW, and will continue to be, it's just such an awesome choice with either Blade or Panhard.
I don't currently own Wurmcoil - awesome card but out of my price range.
Yeah, LOL, Primordial was in there, and was usually my finisher that had people rage quit. Funny that...
Ranger of Eos has a little promise of those, but I'm not sure there's many (if any) 1-drops with ETB effects I care about.
I guess things like Tinder Wall, Wild Cantor, Taunting Elf, Vexing Devil etc. could work on some level, but it's not really where I want to be with an ETB focussed deck.
Visionary & Coiling Oracle have featured heavily in my Blade decks of the past. I've never tried Blade or Panhard with goblins, part of me is wondering how silly Goblin matron & Goblin ringleader could become.... hyuk!
Shock horror - I've never given black a run with Blade or Panhard! To be honest I've never actually played them in the same deck. I know I know...
There's a decent amount of 2 & 3-drops I could consider here, like Anathemancer, Catacomb Sifter, Baleful Strix, Big Game Hunter, Fleshbag Marauder, Phyrexian Rager, Thieving Sprite etc.
I don't agree with most of this.
1. If your bar for playable value is Consecrated Sphinx then kiss 99.9999999% of the card base goodbye. It's what? The 5th best multiplayer creature in the entire game? We can sit here all day listen cards worse than Conq Sphinx or, alternatively, we can have a discussion that's actually worth having.
2. If people are doing broken Aetheflux Reservoir shenanigans and Death Staring the entire table on turn 4-6 then none of the cards that you listed are viable either. That is, you can't say "N loses to turn 2 Waste Not turn 3 Windfall" and then post an alternative strategy that loses to the exact same line.
3. You can't knock a card because it inherently uses deck slots. We are not trying to combo exactly Blade with exactly Mulldrifter. We are willing to pair Blade with ANY creature. It's not like it's a dead draw in anything but extreme use-cases.
4. Is the Blade riskier than certain alternatives? Sure. It's slow and mana intensive. That's a thing. Still, it can also read "put 4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel into play every turn." People need to realize that not everyone plays in >=4 player games and that for some us cards like this are utterly bonkers given the increased player count. Medium risk cards are fine as long as they have a high payoff and the reward is well worth the cost in this scenario.
What I do agree with is that 4x PanHam and 4x BoS is overkill. I would personally play 4 total (max 5) split among them. After all, you can virtually never afford to equip more than one every 2 circuits and so multiples are dubious at best. Given enough rampers then sure but generally speaking you don't have the mana to support too many copies at once. That is, I would never play 4 copies of the card myself and so I'm not arguing that it's overkill. I just don't agree with you that BoS needs special treatment to be bonkers. I play 1 in all of my creature decks and I couldn't envision a world in which I cut it.
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What I'm looking at is always having one in hand I can sandbag and then land post-wipe, as non-creature wipes are fairly well expected from certain decks I face all the time. That said, dropping to 6 (for me) will probably be where I end up.
Not so much. Mulldrifter isn't where I wanna be here.
The reason why I'm asking for idea's is because my previous version's have literally sucked the life out of a game and caused people to moan. So if you have a less brutal way of using blade/panhard that doesn't just go thermo-nuclear, and is based on fun interactions, I'm all ears.
If however you're saying I'm not looking to get the best out of these artifacts, you're probably right, but I am looking for idea's I may not have considered before. I've done oppressive with these artifacts already, and seen the eye-rolls from across the table.
FWIW, I do play competitive MTG on occasion, but when I play multiplayer I like to have a laugh more than win, so quite a few of my MP decks have mutated from optimized monsters to semi-casual decks full of suboptimal choices for the sake of giving everyone else a bit of elbow room.
The obvious answer is to avoid global effects and stick to "regular" ETB triggers such as Flametongue Kavu and Thragtusk. That way you're not sucking the life out of the table but you'll still doing something "that matters." At that point you're basically on a "greedy" duel deck which should be close enough to where you want the power-level to be. Obviously duping Garys and Sylvan-fathers is the way to go if you want to win which is why you should stick to regular baddies like Inferno Titan.
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One way to live with that variance would be to build around creatures where their ETB effects don't generate any value beyond a certain point. I like Prid3's suggestion of Flametongue Kavu in that regard. There are only so many creatures you can hit with those 4-damage triggers, so the top end for FtK is basically like casting a Blasphemous Act. The power of the interaction never goes above the level of a card that Wizards has actually printed.
On the other hand, take something like Thragtusk--which isn't even the most oppressive creature you could be using. Say that you have Panharmonicon out and swing with a blade-equipped Thragtusk. That nets you 50 life and another 30 power's-worth of creatures. There's no card in the game for any amount of mana that's that powerful.
So I guess that would be my suggestion if you don't want the deck to go too crazy. Either drop the blades or try to select creatures where the "upper limit" of what you might do is still a reasonable effect. Something like Farhaven Elf would be another example of those--you've only got so many basic lands to fetch out of your library before you've found them all so it's not too dissimilar from casting a Boundless Realms. Same goes for Eternal Witness; the "upper limit" is basically like casting a Praetor's Counsel.
It's also worth noting that "Wood Elves" create a natural 2-3-4 curve with Blade of Selves that enables you to generate the mana required to ensure that you'll be able to abuse said Blade for the rest of the game. Its only significant drawback is the steep equip cost which is largely mitigated when you're ramping multiple extra lands into play on a routine basis.
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Exactly. Blade is a crazy card I'm surprised they printed. I agree the only way to guarantee the deck doesn't induce game-winning situations too early is to cut it completely. I may not do that....
It's not shabby at all hey?
Farhaven Elf, Wood Elves, & Eldrazi Skyspawner are all options I've used before (not at the same time)
Given that I usually play in 4-6 player games (sometimes larger);
A deck with 6-8 of these may potentially ignore 4-6 drops and focus on large-cmc with ETB effects or *attacks* effects, just chuck in a Fierce Empath and giddy up! The tricky part is finding cards that aren't going to actually win the game on the spot, without being stupidly bad... I dunno, there's not many group-hug types that I actually want to play (read: buy).
....and just because it made me giggle like a little girl, anyone brave enough to use Blade with Eater of Days? Ha ha!