I've been experimenting with decks that use Approach of the Second Sun as a win condition, because who doesn't l love "do-nothing" seven drops? Most of the deck lists have been Green-White Group Hug style lists that I'll post tomorrow, but the deck I am posting tonight for your review is a Blue-White Control variation created mostly because each of the cards themselves are individually good and I never got to play with Sphinx's Revelation when it was in Standard. That being said, I have very little experience with the Blue-White Control archetype, so the list is most likely very bad, but like I said I am asking for your feedback. The group I play with uses a variety of strategies including mid-range (Black Devotion, Abzan Panharmonicon), Control-Combo (Seasons Past, Maze's End), and aggro decks. Very little countermagic.
You forgot lands. I see you are running a dual colored deck with Sun Titan. I'm curious as to whether using Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Winds would help or hinder you. Running four of each would give your deck a lot of shuffling but also thin your deck.
I'd also recommend running a third Approach, maybe (I mean playtest it first) four. After the first casting, it doesn't matter which Approach pops up after the first one cast, so if another copy is your next draw, you don't have to wait for seven turns for that one particular copy to pop back up.
I'd also recommend running a third Approach, maybe (I mean playtest it first) four. After the first casting, it doesn't matter which Approach pops up after the first one cast, so if another copy is your next draw, you don't have to wait for seven turns for that one particular copy to pop back up.
Which is why I've been playing it alongside Remand .
Sun Titan seems awful in this list. Even if you have Fetchlands to recur he's still not even that good, even compared to something like Oblivion Sower. Have you considered moving away from Grasp of Fate and trying a list with 4x Serenity and 4x Sun Titan? I know that you also have Luminarch Ascension but for that one you can just cast it on turn 6 alongside a wrath. Also, if you just run it out on turn 2 and it survives then you don't have to jam a Serenity so that's fine too. Basically I would rather see this deck have either 4x Grasp of Fate or 4x Serenity and 4x Sun Titan if possible.
Which is why I've been playing it alongside Remand .
Sun Titan seems awful in this list. Even if you have Fetchlands to recur he's still not even that good, even compared to something like Oblivion Sower. Have you considered moving away from Grasp of Fate and trying a list with 4x Serenity and 4x Sun Titan? I know that you also have Luminarch Ascension but for that one you can just cast it on turn 6 alongside a wrath. Also, if you just run it out on turn 2 and it survives then you don't have to jam a Serenity so that's fine too. Basically I would rather see this deck have either 4x Grasp of Fate or 4x Serenity and 4x Sun Titan if possible.
I had to check the rules....you are correct and that is sneaky
When I first saw the card I thought it would be good in a R/W shell with Mana Geyser or something to jump up to 9 mana to cast Approach + Fork, either from the hand or fetched with Sunforger. I didn't bother going any further than that because the deck didn't seem like it would be very fun to play with or against though.
When I first saw the card I thought it would be good in a R/W shell with Mana Geyser or something to jump up to 9 mana to cast Approach + Fork, either from the hand or fetched with Sunforger. I didn't bother going any further than that because the deck didn't seem like it would be very fun to play with or against though.
Oh, you're right. I got so caught up on the first part about "casting from your hand" that I didn't read the "cast another spell named Approach of the Second Sun" part closely enough.
So you cast the first one, Remand it, then cast the second one same turn? Definitely like this plan but how do you reliably amp up that high? Are you taking the Devotion route or just CWU ramp elements?
So you cast the first one, Remand it, then cast the second one same turn? Definitely like this plan but how do you reliably amp up that high? Are you taking the Devotion route or just CWU ramp elements?
Doesn't have to be on the same turn. The first shell that I tested was UW Prison with Serra's Sanctum and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. The deck was good at defending itself and could ramp extremely quickly once you hit the midgame. I was playing the old Attunement + Replenish combo for kicks to fill my board even faster and I could also use Attunement to dig for Approach assuming that I didn't manage to bounce it. 2 casts is all you need which expedites the process immensely.
I also tried playing it in "monowhite" devotion splashing Blue for Ephara, God of the Polis to combo with my token engines. For that deck I could either generate tons of mana or use Mastery of the Unseen to quickly dig through the top 6 cards of my deck so that I can reliably draw Approach again shortly after casting it. Either that or I just used Ephara, God of the Polis + token engines to draw a ton of cards every circuit and that obviously works too.
Otherwise I tried testing various Combo Control decks using Remand as my Counterspell and this as my wincon. I would usually try to generate infinite mana with Power Artifact + Basalt Monolith or Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth (you get the idea) and then this was my "I win no matter what" card. The cards that I usually run are things like Staff of Domination or Blue Sun's Zenith but there's something about "you win the game" that appeals to me since it's nigh impossible to thwart.
I also built a very crappy Paradox Engine deck since Remand is utterly absurd when you have Paradox Engine in play. Cast spell, untap things, Remand spell, untap things again, draw a card, cast the spell that you Remanded, untap, cast the spell that you drew, untap, you now have access to 50 mana, etc.
Swapping Negate for Remand seems easy enough as well as trading Grasp of Fate for Serenity.
Although I admit, when I put him in here, Sun Titan was meant more as a placeholder, since we're playing Blue anyway, and since they're affordable again, is it worth running the Phantasmal Image/Sun Titan combo in here?
Swapping Negate for Remand seems easy enough as well as trading Grasp of Fate for Serenity.
Although I admit, when I put him in here, Sun Titan was meant more as a placeholder, since we're playing Blue anyway, and since they're affordable again, is it worth running the Phantasmal Image/Sun Titan combo in here?
Hell yes it is! Just don't go too deep and try and enchant your Image with a Gift of Immortality . Sun Titan however...
Overall, it feels too greedy which may be a problem as I am generally a target in games. Especially with only 23 lands, but there is a substantial amount of card draw. Only including a soft counter also feels unsafe. Sphinx's Revelation may be too cute, and I would like someone to help me identify which cards can be cut and which need to be 4x's. 11 win conditions feels good though. Ideally the mana base would include Celestial Colonnade and Hallowed Fountains, but budget restrictions and all.
I like my manabase to go "infinite" when I have Sun Titan in the mix. Super fetches are ideal, of course, but Myriad Landscape has been a good budget option for me since their release.
If you can cheat Mirror out, it'll let you cast the first one early, but then you don't get to tuck it seven cards deep and you still have to hard-cast the second one.
I think the best way to do this is just a Bandt ramp shell with mana rocks and tutors.
You forgot lands. I see you are running a dual colored deck with Sun Titan. I'm curious as to whether using Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Winds would help or hinder you. Running four of each would give your deck a lot of shuffling but also thin your deck.I'd also recommend running a third Approach, maybe (I mean playtest it first) four. After the first casting, it doesn't matter which Approach pops up after the first one cast, so if another copy is your next draw, you don't have to wait for seven turns for that one particular copy to pop back up.
The first time you cast it Approach of the Second Sun is a seven mana do-nothing card. Adding any more would increase the likelihood that i would draw it before being able to cast it. At that point I'd rather fill my hand with draw spells, which help me find my two copies, or cards that keep me alive like Day of Judgment. As for the slow fetchlands, they have uses alongside Sun Titan, but this is a deck that can't afford to wait for too many CIPT lands.
I like my manabase to go "infinite" when I have Sun Titan in the mix. Super fetches are ideal, of course, but Myriad Landscape has been a good budget option for me since their release.
That being said, I could see playing Myriad Landscape to get more functionality out of Sun Titan.
I don't think that Mirror is the best way to win with the card; it just adds a clunky, vulnerable other combo piece. Approach of the Second Sun already has a means of casting the second Approach, so I think the best method is to ramp it out and draw cards to dig deeper until you find the same copy. Dig Through Time may be the best option here.
If you can cheat Mirror out, it'll let you cast the first one early, but then you don't get to tuck it seven cards deep and you still have to hard-cast the second one.
I think the best way to do this is just a Bandt ramp shell with mana rocks and tutors.
Your probably right, my only issue so far with that plan is that due to budget constraints my manabase would not be the best and having never built this type of deck I'm unsure what ratios to start with. What I mean is that if the deck wants ramp how much ids enough? The deck also needs some board clear but how much, how many midgame threats do I need or counterspells?, etc. The first issue may not matter given enough ramp and I would be happy to take your advice on the second.
Maybe something like:
2 Approach of the Second Sun
4-6 Wraths
6-10 Ramp
4 Counters
4-6 Draw
6-8 Midgame/Other Threats/Plan B
I don't understand this Panoptic Mirror nonsense since Approach says says "cast from hand." If you're going to field Mirror then you may as well run a Time Warp variant as your primary win condition.
Cast second sun, next turn u draw 1 card on ur drawstep and pop marvel since now it's 6th from the top wich means u have 100% of getting it there.
Marvel casts it from your library, not your hand so the will condition wouldn't trigger. That clause makes it incredibly hard to cheat with this card.
You can cast Approach, activate Marvel before you draw, and then have a guaranteed Approach draw on your next draw step. So it's something worth looking at.
I had a U/W Control list that used 4x luminarch ascension as its sole win condition but was considering switching to 2x approach of the second sun with the 'remand' package instead. I was thinking something like this:
Approach of the Second Sun is a card I'd been considering for a BW build, but then my group hates *you win* cards, so I've ignored the pull.
Black has tutor to search these up & easy mana with Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual et al.
Hell, if you're gonna try and win with this, I'd consider the full combo route with rituals and pack in a loads of draw to make sure you find AotSS.
Approach of the Second Sun is a card I'd been considering for a BW build, but then my group hates *you win* cards, so I've ignored the pull.
Black has tutor to search these up & easy mana with Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual et al.
Hell, if you're gonna try and win with this, I'd consider the full combo route with rituals and pack in a loads of draw to make sure you find AotSS.
This seems like a very strong idea, especially if you're using Dark Petition to help find it. Personally, I don't like the idea of including fast mana since it doesn't help you cast the second one, so I would just put it within a control shell. I would completely build this deck, but it seems too similar to my Seasons Past deck.
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2x Sun Titan
4x Wall of Omens
Spells (30)
4x Preordain
1x Elixir of Immortality
3x Luminarch Ascension
3x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Cyclonic Rift
3x Negate
2x Grasp of Fate
3x Supreme Verdict
3x Day of Judgment
3x Tragic Arrogance
2x Approach of the Second Sun
I'd also recommend running a third Approach, maybe (I mean playtest it first) four. After the first casting, it doesn't matter which Approach pops up after the first one cast, so if another copy is your next draw, you don't have to wait for seven turns for that one particular copy to pop back up.
Which is why I've been playing it alongside Remand .
Sun Titan seems awful in this list. Even if you have Fetchlands to recur he's still not even that good, even compared to something like Oblivion Sower. Have you considered moving away from Grasp of Fate and trying a list with 4x Serenity and 4x Sun Titan? I know that you also have Luminarch Ascension but for that one you can just cast it on turn 6 alongside a wrath. Also, if you just run it out on turn 2 and it survives then you don't have to jam a Serenity so that's fine too. Basically I would rather see this deck have either 4x Grasp of Fate or 4x Serenity and 4x Sun Titan if possible.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I had to check the rules....you are correct and that is sneaky
I don't think that works since you don't actually "cast" copies. That's why I was testing spells like Remand and Unsubstantiate and not ones like Reverberate, Fork, Dualcaster Mage, etc.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
So you cast the first one, Remand it, then cast the second one same turn? Definitely like this plan but how do you reliably amp up that high? Are you taking the Devotion route or just CWU ramp elements?
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Doesn't have to be on the same turn. The first shell that I tested was UW Prison with Serra's Sanctum and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. The deck was good at defending itself and could ramp extremely quickly once you hit the midgame. I was playing the old Attunement + Replenish combo for kicks to fill my board even faster and I could also use Attunement to dig for Approach assuming that I didn't manage to bounce it. 2 casts is all you need which expedites the process immensely.
I also tried playing it in "monowhite" devotion splashing Blue for Ephara, God of the Polis to combo with my token engines. For that deck I could either generate tons of mana or use Mastery of the Unseen to quickly dig through the top 6 cards of my deck so that I can reliably draw Approach again shortly after casting it. Either that or I just used Ephara, God of the Polis + token engines to draw a ton of cards every circuit and that obviously works too.
Otherwise I tried testing various Combo Control decks using Remand as my Counterspell and this as my wincon. I would usually try to generate infinite mana with Power Artifact + Basalt Monolith or Basalt Monolith + Rings of Brighthearth (you get the idea) and then this was my "I win no matter what" card. The cards that I usually run are things like Staff of Domination or Blue Sun's Zenith but there's something about "you win the game" that appeals to me since it's nigh impossible to thwart.
I also built a very crappy Paradox Engine deck since Remand is utterly absurd when you have Paradox Engine in play. Cast spell, untap things, Remand spell, untap things again, draw a card, cast the spell that you Remanded, untap, cast the spell that you drew, untap, you now have access to 50 mana, etc.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Indeed.
Hmmmmm, this seems like it could be quite fun in a stock W/U control list. Just when they think they finally caught a glimmer of hope... "Oh, I see."
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The errata on Fork says that the copy is put on the stack, but not cast.
Although I admit, when I put him in here, Sun Titan was meant more as a placeholder, since we're playing Blue anyway, and since they're affordable again, is it worth running the Phantasmal Image/Sun Titan combo in here?
Hell yes it is! Just don't go too deep and try and enchant your Image with a Gift of Immortality . Sun Titan however...
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
3x Sun Titan
3x Wall of Omens
3x Phantasmal Image
Spells (28)
3x Preordain
3x Luminarch Ascension
3x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Cyclonic Rift
3x Remand
3x Serenity
3x Supreme Verdict
3x Day of Judgment
2x Tragic Arrogance
2x Approach of the Second Sun
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Temple of Enlightenment
4x Prairie Stream
7x Plains
4x Island
Overall, it feels too greedy which may be a problem as I am generally a target in games. Especially with only 23 lands, but there is a substantial amount of card draw. Only including a soft counter also feels unsafe. Sphinx's Revelation may be too cute, and I would like someone to help me identify which cards can be cut and which need to be 4x's. 11 win conditions feels good though. Ideally the mana base would include Celestial Colonnade and Hallowed Fountains, but budget restrictions and all.
If you can cheat Mirror out, it'll let you cast the first one early, but then you don't get to tuck it seven cards deep and you still have to hard-cast the second one.
I think the best way to do this is just a Bandt ramp shell with mana rocks and tutors.
The first time you cast it Approach of the Second Sun is a seven mana do-nothing card. Adding any more would increase the likelihood that i would draw it before being able to cast it. At that point I'd rather fill my hand with draw spells, which help me find my two copies, or cards that keep me alive like Day of Judgment. As for the slow fetchlands, they have uses alongside Sun Titan, but this is a deck that can't afford to wait for too many CIPT lands.
That being said, I could see playing Myriad Landscape to get more functionality out of Sun Titan.
I don't think that Mirror is the best way to win with the card; it just adds a clunky, vulnerable other combo piece. Approach of the Second Sun already has a means of casting the second Approach, so I think the best method is to ramp it out and draw cards to dig deeper until you find the same copy. Dig Through Time may be the best option here.
Your probably right, my only issue so far with that plan is that due to budget constraints my manabase would not be the best and having never built this type of deck I'm unsure what ratios to start with. What I mean is that if the deck wants ramp how much ids enough? The deck also needs some board clear but how much, how many midgame threats do I need or counterspells?, etc. The first issue may not matter given enough ramp and I would be happy to take your advice on the second.
Maybe something like:
2 Approach of the Second Sun
4-6 Wraths
6-10 Ramp
4 Counters
4-6 Draw
6-8 Midgame/Other Threats/Plan B
4x Wall of Omens
4x Howling Mine
4x Day of Judgment
2x Supreme Verdict
3x Ghostly Prison
3x Luminarch Ascension
3x Rites of Flourishing
4x Remand
3x Thragtusk
3x Moment's Peace
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
You can cast Approach, activate Marvel before you draw, and then have a guaranteed Approach draw on your next draw step. So it's something worth looking at.
4 Azorius Signet
4 Grasp of Fate
4 Supreme Verdict
2 Rout
2 Fumigate
4 Trade Secrets
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Forbid
4 Remand
4 Failure // Comply
2 Approach of the Second Sun
It probably contains too many 'remand' effects, but is someplace to start at least.
Black has tutor to search these up & easy mana with Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual et al.
Hell, if you're gonna try and win with this, I'd consider the full combo route with rituals and pack in a loads of draw to make sure you find AotSS.
A little slower and more fragile, but you can keep it mono-white with Lapse of Certainty, too.
I'm not sure there are necessarily any compelling arguments for keeping it mono-white, but there you go.
This seems like a very strong idea, especially if you're using Dark Petition to help find it. Personally, I don't like the idea of including fast mana since it doesn't help you cast the second one, so I would just put it within a control shell. I would completely build this deck, but it seems too similar to my Seasons Past deck.