I am having some difficulty with my deck. I play in a group of 3-5 people usually. My deck just does not quite work right. I am fairly new to the game so my deck-building skills are lacking. Any help would be appreciated.
This deck starts of great but cannot finish the job. Building up mana is no problem. I can generally get the cards I want out when I want them. The problem is that there gets to be a point in the game when I cannot attack, or cannot attack big enough. Either they have big blockers, many blockers, crazy life-gain, etc. Occasionally, an opponent will play a spell to disable a creature, although I do not play too much against control or heavy removal. That is, however, still something I need to be wary of.
I need to do something. Make my creatures bigger, add some alternate win-condition, etc. A creature that can progressively grow may be good, or perhaps proper equipment to give a creature or two an edge.
Any ideas?
Also, I do not have a very large budget to improve the deck.
Another card similar to Hydra Omnivore is Caller of the Pack. They pair together decently well since they share the goal of bashing everyone to bits.
Terra Stomper and Outland Colossus are extremely weak finishers and for what it's worth I would never play with them. Stonehoof Chieftain is fine but he's an 8 drop who's worthless in multiples so running 4 seems extremely suspect. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is decent but, again, he's really bad in multiples and his effect isn't inherently bonkers or anything. I doubt that you need 4 of him either.
I don't really like Hydra Omnivore. Makes you a big target for everyone despite not being very good, because it has no evasion on it's own. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is also bad because you essentially need to spend a tun to cast him, negating any benefit the haste could give you. Whisperer of the Wilds should probably be another card that can capitalize on the land untap combo, like Voyaging Satyr.
I think you mostly need some Overrun effects, Overwhelming Stampede should be good or maybe even Kamahl, Fist of Krosa if you can afford it. 19 Lands might also be too greedy for such a high avarage cmc, if you don't draw the right cards you might get stuck at 3-5 mana.
I think the best ramp route is Cultivate and kodomas reach. Or mana dork it up with llanowar elf and priest of titania. For some alternate and excellent creatures try bellowing tanglewurm he is just nasty. You want to focus on ramp and stomping face with speed. Even if you run Howl of the Nightpack for some wolf tokens and then overrun not to many decks can deal with it. Good luck as a new player and one day try out commander its great. Card knowledge and studying is your best friend in this game.
Cultivate still sucks even if you want to field actual land fetchers as opposed to permanents in order to mitigate the effects of removal. Like, it's pretty easy to play a deck with Nature's Lore/Three Visits/Sakura-Tribe Elder/etc. at 2 and Skyshroud Claim et al. at 4 vs a deck with Cultivate + Kodama's Reach and notice the difference immediately. Not only is the former faster and more powerful but the fact that your lands ETB untapped is huge because it often means that you're able to cast additional spells that you wouldn't otherwise be able to. After all, Nature's Lore effectively only costs G and Skyshroud Claim effectively only costs 1G and it ramps the full 2 mana immediately. It's not even close to being close.
The only time that I'd run Cultivate is in a deck full of 5 drops that didn't want to play much ramp and that didn't want Worn Powerstone.
Choice is choice gentlemen. I've seen more mono green ramp decks run both those cards with sucess. Its simply choice. Everyone plays differently. Its all about how you play mono green. The best mono green ramp I seen was cultivate to fetch lands and throwing a gauntlet of power down. Some of the best green commander decks run those two cards with great success.
Choice is choice gentlemen. I've seen more mono green ramp decks run both those cards with sucess. Its simply choice. Everyone plays differently. Its all about how you play mono green. The best mono green ramp I seen was cultivate to fetch lands and throwing a gauntlet of power down. Some of the best green commander decks run those two cards with great success.
I frequent the cEDH reddit and I'm part of the cEDH Discord and I constantly check the competitive EDH decks posted here on the forums. No one, and I do mean no one, runs those crappy ramp spells in optimized lists. It's not about choice, it's not about preference, it's not about how you play a deck, it's literally just math. Some combinations of cards will yield higher win %s than others because they include objectively superior cards. The fact that Nature's Lore puts an untapped Dual or a Murmuring Bosk (or two Duals/a dual and Bosk in Skyshroud Claims place) into play on turn 1-2 so that you can cast your cantrip/counterspell/etc. is massive and you still get your color fixing and one land ramp. Obviously you don't get the extra land for down the road but that's irrelevant when you're doing your "powerful play" faster than everyone else. The fact that your ramp spell only costs 1 mana (virtually) typically enables you to cast multiple spells per turn which is almost always better than tapping 3 mana to effectively Rampant Growth. You're just never going to see cards like Cultivate in the list that people like Glix, Razzilox, Shaper and all of the other competitive EDH players who play in the cEDH leagues because they're strictly worse than the alternatives if you're attempting to maximize your overall win %.
Clearly I'm not saying that "you're not allowed to play with Cultivate" or any BS like that but at the same time I'm not going to sit here and have someone state "every card has the same win %." That's just blatantly incorrect and optimizing your lists necessitates that you play "the best cards" and not "cards that some person at some casual table won a game with." I've seen countless Green cEDH lists, decks that I'm happily willing to post if needed, and none of them include Cultivate. None of the decks that cEDH league players field use Cultivate. It's not a powerful Magic card at all and will never make the cut in the best versions of the best decks.
Some preliminary testing has shown this to be significantly better. First, what further changes would any of you make?
Next, are there any situations that I should mulligan specific to this deck? The deck starts off extremely slow without having a 1 or 2-drop in my opening hand. Should I mulligan in this case? Also, if all I get is one Voyaging Satyr, I am not ahead on mana until turn 3, and may lose my chance to gain board advantage. Especially since, if I have a bad draw with limited to no mana generation, the only other creature I can get out relatively fast is Leatherback Baloth. Am I expecting too much of the deck? With these things considered, to make sure things move quickly, I must mulligan around 30% of the time. This seems high. Should I be more patient or is there a way to change the deck?
Finally, a problem I suspect with all decks with decent mana generation, I the game starts well, then around turn 5 or 6, my hand may only have one card in it! Should I put in another Shamanic Revelation? If so, what should I remove? Or, is there a better method of solving this problem?
Also, Atanar, I too like doubling hydras, but they are, unfortunately, out of my budget.
Next, are there any situations that I should mulligan specific to this deck? The deck starts off extremely slow without having a 1 or 2-drop in my opening hand. Should I mulligan in this case? Also, if all I get is one Voyaging Satyr, I am not ahead on mana until turn 3, and may lose my chance to gain board advantage. Especially since, if I have a bad draw with limited to no mana generation, the only other creature I can get out relatively fast is Leatherback Baloth. Am I expecting too much of the deck? With these things considered, to make sure things move quickly, I must mulligan around 30% of the time. This seems high. Should I be more patient or is there a way to change the deck?
Leatherback Baloth seems like building in the opposite direction of where you want to be. Are you ever going to be happy casting that on turn two instead of Overgrowth? If you're falling behind on your gameplan, is a vanilla 4/5 really going to right the ship? If you're really concerned about not drawing into enough ramp you could always add more, like Utopia Sprawl but I suspect that you have plenty.
Someone can please double-check me on the statistics but I think your odds of seeing at least one Wild Growth or Arbor Elf across your opening draw, free mulligan and mull to 6 + scry 1 are 96%. I arrived at that by plugging the odds of drawing one from a pool of 8 successes in an overall population of 60 with 7 attempts into a hypergeometric distribution--which by itself gives a 65% chance of seeing at least one. Then I plugged three such attempts into a binomial distribution looking for one success and arrived at 96%. Unless I got the math wrong, I think you're odds of finding a good starting hand with 2 mulligans are pretty good (though I didn't account for also drawing lands so some portion of those hands wouldn't be keepable.)
Finally, a problem I suspect with all decks with decent mana generation, I the game starts well, then around turn 5 or 6, my hand may only have one card in it! Should I put in another Shamanic Revelation? If so, what should I remove? Or, is there a better method of solving this problem?
Dumping the whole hand fast is normal for a stompy-type deck. That's not inherently a problem, but can be if you are boardwhiped and left with nothing in hand. Might field some of the new green anti-removal card Heroic Intervention if that's becoming a big issue.
You've got a 80% chance of at least one of your 1-drops in your hand at your third draw. I think you are exaggerating with how much you have to mulligan because of that, because even a Voyaging Satyr into Overgrowth is still powerful, it's 85% that you have a 1-drop or satyr on turn 2. Any hand where you can expect to drop a 6-mana creature at turn 4 is a keeper. And a 15% mulligan rate in multiplayer is perfectly acceptable.
I don't know why you took out the Stonehoof Chieftain completely, I think it's great as a 1-of. You probably don't need 4 of the overwhelming Stampede, you don't want multiples early on. 2-3 is better than 4.
If you want to make the deck slightly more consistent you can cut some of the fat for 2x Utopia Sprawl. With eight 1 drops, the free multiplayer mulligan and the fact you get to Scry 1 if you mull to 6 your odds of keeping an opener that starts on 1 is above 95%. With ten 1 drops it becomes virtually 100% in practice. You would have to be a ridiculously unlucky individual to consistently fail to start on 1 (I'm talking a lottery winner, not some who rolls a 1 with a 20-sided die). The math says that you should be fine with eight 1 drops, that's what I generally play myself, but it's definitely not 100% and I've definitely played as many as ten 1 drops after having a string of bad draws where I failed to mulligan into keepable hands. The main thing is that you HAVE to be willing to abuse the free multiplayer mulligan (which is an actual rule in the comprehensive rulebook produced by Wizards) because you just blind ship your first 7 if there's no 1 drop. It would have to be the actual nut draw to justify keeping.
Just so we're clear, when I say "the math supports" it's because I've done the math and math is overwhelming.
Using hypergeometric distribution we can determine that the probability of drawing one or more copies of a specific 8-of in your opening hand to be 0.653593571031819 which we'll round to 65% for simplicity's sake. Given that you receive a free mulligan in a multiplayer setting should you fail to find that "key card" on your first look you can then take another crack at it. Once again you'll have a 65% chance of locating your "key card" as none of the variables or numbers have changed. Now let's assume that you're willing to mull down to 6 cards in a multiplayer setting if you think that it will improve your chances of succeeding. That's fair right? Well, once you mulligan a second time you get to see 6 cards + Scry 1 and assuming that your Scry isn't your "key card" then at the start of your turn you get an 8th crack at it when you draw your card. That is, on your second mulligan you get to see up to 8 cards and that calculates out to a 0.705881333894941 probability of finding your "key card." For simplicity's sake we'll use 70% so that I can't be accused of inflating numbers but it doesn't matter one way or another. All told the cumulative probability of finding the key card that you're looking for calculates out to be 0.65 + (1-0.65)(0.65) + (1-0.65)(1-0.65)(0.70)= 0.96325 or 96%. While this number is slightly inflated given that it's undeniably possible to draw hands that include your "key card" but that you cannot possibly keep it still highlights why the mulligan phase is such an important aspect of multiplayer deck-building. Insofar as you're willing to blindly mull for a card you have an extremely high probability of finding it which opens far more doors than you can possibly imagine.
Bear in mind that I also play a lot of Magic, this isn't "pure theory" or anything, but it helps when you can prove why what you're saying is true using numbers and calculations that any other individual could replicate for themselves. It's not my opinion, it's not hearsay, it's an objective fact that's true regardless of who replicates the experiment/the calculations. We're all bound by the same laws of hypergeometric distribution and cumulative probability so that 96% is true for 100% of players in 100% of decks.
In ramp I prefer to play 6-8 dorks. In mine I run 2 llanowar elves, 2 birds of paradise, and 2 elvish mystics. Sometimes I'll play a full set of mystic but I like a bit of variety and they all do essentially the same thing. I also like elvish piper to combo with some solid etb's. For a single green and tapping her you can play anything. She's definitely a 4 of in most any ramp deck. Market festival and/or pulse of llanowar are the enchantments I would run. They'll definitely help ramp you for stuff that has a when cast trigger. Also if you're running cinder glade or any g/x dual land I would play multiples and splash that color to get some creature removal. Green isn't very good at that. And for the big bombs I like the eldrazi from the original zendikar block. Anything with the annihilator ability. Avenger of zendikar is a fun one if you can drop it early with elvish piper. Then keep dropping lands. You can potentially beat face with some op plant tokens which is kinda funny. Another solid ramp card is oblivion sower. They exile 4 and you get any lands then what ever is left goes to their graveyard. Kalonian hydra is another solid card that beefs itself up on attack. And rancor is a must have in just about anything green. Sorry for lack of links as I'm in my phone but I hope it helps. These are all casual play options. Some are modern some are vintage/legacy but they're all fun cards. And if you're going playing mono green primalcrux is a good one that has power and toughness equal to devotion. There's all kinds of options for a ramp deck. Just look around and keep trying new things. You'll find something that consistently works well and allows you to be competitive within your group
The main thing is that you HAVE to be willing to abuse the free multiplayer mulligan
This helps. It is the part that I struggle with. I do not like to have it be part of my strategy... Something for me to work on though!
Why don't you like Overwhelming Stampede? Because it cannot be re-used? Unfortunately, Genesis Wave is a bit too expensive for me right now. It is a really cool card though. If not that or Overwhelming Stampede, what would you suggest me use?
This helps. It is the part that I struggle with. I do not like to have it be part of my strategy... Something for me to work on though!
It's different, there's no question about it, but it's an actual rule and not just something that people like me made up to give ourselves an advantage. I understand why some people would hesitate to "abuse" it, it certainly feels as though you're "cheating the system" at times, but it's completely on-the-level from a rules perspective.
Take another thing for example. I'll often play with my Snuff Outs face up when I'm playing casual games with newer players. Why? Because it's not against the rules and players are significantly less likely to attack you when they know that they're 100% sending their dragon to its death. Is it weird? Sure, but you're allowed to reveal cards in your hand to your adversaries and if that gives me an advantage then I'm going to employ it. I clearly wouldn't do this if it were against the rules but as far as I can tell there's literally nothing preventing you from employing these tactics.
Why don't you like Overwhelming Stampede? Because it cannot be re-used? Unfortunately, Genesis Wave is a bit too expensive for me right now. It is a really cool card though. If not that or Overwhelming Stampede, what would you suggest me use?
Overwhelming Stampede only wins games that you were already going to win and will never turn games that you were going to lose. I'll admit that I'm heavily biased because my meta has long since adopted interaction and mass removal but the problem that I have with these kinds of spell-based finishers is that they're literally worthless when players are slamming Wrath of Gods and such on a frequent basis. That's why I tend to prefer playing things like Genesis Wave, Lifecrafter's Bestiary, Defense of the Heart, Harmonize, Greater Good, Lurking Predators, Rishkar's Expertise, Nissa's Revelation, etc. that generate card advantage and rely on a critical-mass of value threats and spell lands to close games out. The only "Overruns" that I tend to employ are Triumph of the Hordes, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Craterhoof Behemoth. Crafterhoof is simply the best one by an order of magnitude and it's a large threat in case the game goes on. Triumph of the Hordes is A) broken and B) gives you an out to infinite lifegain and other nonsense. It's absolutely bonkers in team-based formats/EDH where life totals are exceptionally high because at worst it halves the damage that you're required to deal in order to win (and even quarters it in EDH!). Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is really cool because not only can you activate him multiple times every turn but his animate land ability gives you insane resilience against mass removal. After all, if someone casts Wrath of God you animate all of their lands as a "screw you" to ensure their demise as well. But still, it's not even a questiuon in my mind when it comes to Overrun or whatever vs Kamahl. Kamahl can be activated multiples times every turn, has a body himself and gives you resilience against the best hate against your critical-mass strategy.
I also like Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. It works really well with the strategy of the deck. It’s cost is getting closer to Genesis Wave, though. Would it be better to just go with Genesis Wave?
Genesis Wave > every other finisher but I do highly recommend adding some Skullwinders or whatever to recur them if you opt to employ them.
Run Kessig Wolf Run as a 1-of and call it a day. I understand that you have land untappers but you've never going to use it multiple times per circuit.
honestly your list is close enough to a mono green devotion list. Would you consider shelling out a little money and getting some of these? Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
You already have quite a few creatures that have strong green devotion. (leatherback baloth is great)
In a group game, board wipes will completely **** you as a mono green player, so I would also recommend getting some indestructible stuff, or maybe some instants that make your stuff indestructable.. IE Heroic Intervention
Garruk Wildspeaker can untap 2 target lands (including your Nykthos or any special lands - not just forests). Honestly he is much better than Voyaging Satyr
You have WAY too few lands, for a ramp deck as well.
If you really want to put a clock on the game and scare your opponents in a multiplayer FFA... can't go wrong with Managorger Hydra. By the time your next turn comes around he'll probably have at least 5 or 6 counters.. remember casting spells includes summoning creatures.
I love mono green and I'm a casual player as well. Honestly I've run with tons of different green cards, different decks.. I've went hard on landfall, and different types of ramp. Devotion ramp is the best, by far.. imo.
It's a modern list, but you can take what you want and leave what you don't.. like for instance don't bother shelling out 5 bucks for Utopia Sprawl when you already have the Wild Growth.
Last point for today. The most glaring omission I see in your deck is that you aren't running Primal Command. Just adding 4 of those in your deck will make it sooo much better. Definitely get rid of the Shamanic Revelation in lieu of the command.
Where you play Leatherback Baloth I play Predator Ooze. It's much better on offense and defense and can get out of control quick. I'd never play Heroic Intervention in a deck like this. Why worry about a board wipe when you can get everything back next turn with Genesis Wave? Or threaten to one-shot the guy who Wrathed with your Xenagos, God of Revels + Kessig Wolf Run + any creature? And why seal off two mana every turn, effectively double Stone Raining yourself, in a ramp deck?
Garruk Wildspeaker can untap 2 target lands (including your Nykthos or any special lands - not just forests). Honestly he is much better than Voyaging Satyr
Garruk is also 4 mana whereas Voyaging Satyr/Arbor Elf drop early. And he's not exactly cheap $$$-wise either.
Last point for today. The most glaring omission I see in your deck is that you aren't running Primal Command. Just adding 4 of those in your deck will make it sooo much better. Definitely get rid of the Shamanic Revelation in lieu of the command.
Cut a great draw/lifegain spell for a marginal tutor/lifegain/shuffle effect? I don't think I'd ever play Primal Command in a generic multiplayer deck.
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This deck starts of great but cannot finish the job. Building up mana is no problem. I can generally get the cards I want out when I want them. The problem is that there gets to be a point in the game when I cannot attack, or cannot attack big enough. Either they have big blockers, many blockers, crazy life-gain, etc. Occasionally, an opponent will play a spell to disable a creature, although I do not play too much against control or heavy removal. That is, however, still something I need to be wary of.
I need to do something. Make my creatures bigger, add some alternate win-condition, etc. A creature that can progressively grow may be good, or perhaps proper equipment to give a creature or two an edge.
Any ideas?
Also, I do not have a very large budget to improve the deck.
17 Forest
2 Rogue's Passage
Sorcery
2 Shamanic Revelation
Enchantment
4 Wild Growth
Creature
4 Arbor Elf
4 Hydra Omnivore
4 Leatherback Baloth
3 Outland Colossus
4 Somberwald Sage
4 Stonehoof Chieftain
4 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 Terra Stomper
4 Whisperer of the Wilds
3 Aerial Volley
1 Conclave Naturalists
1 Display of Dominance
2 Epic Confrontation
4 Feed the Clan
2 Fog
1 Gaea's Revenge
1 Plummet
Strategy
An easy way to go over-the-top of people while playing Green ramp is to field cards like Realm Seekers, Ulvenwald Hydra and Sylvan Primordial as your finishers and to tutor us Kessig Wolf Run with your Hydras. You typically only need 1 Red source in your deck, either a Cinder Glade or a Stomping Ground, since both Ulvenwald Hydra and Sylvan Primordial can tutor it out as needed. The Hydras/Seekers can obviously also tutor for Rogue's Passage which isn't trivial either.
Another card similar to Hydra Omnivore is Caller of the Pack. They pair together decently well since they share the goal of bashing everyone to bits.
Terra Stomper and Outland Colossus are extremely weak finishers and for what it's worth I would never play with them. Stonehoof Chieftain is fine but he's an 8 drop who's worthless in multiples so running 4 seems extremely suspect. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is decent but, again, he's really bad in multiples and his effect isn't inherently bonkers or anything. I doubt that you need 4 of him either.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I think you mostly need some Overrun effects, Overwhelming Stampede should be good or maybe even Kamahl, Fist of Krosa if you can afford it. 19 Lands might also be too greedy for such a high avarage cmc, if you don't draw the right cards you might get stuck at 3-5 mana.
Also, I like the doubling hydras (Primordial Hydra, Kalonian Hydra) for that scenario.
That is strictly worse in a vacuum, it only get's better if you face a lot of removal and with cards that care about land count.
The only time that I'd run Cultivate is in a deck full of 5 drops that didn't want to play much ramp and that didn't want Worn Powerstone.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I frequent the cEDH reddit and I'm part of the cEDH Discord and I constantly check the competitive EDH decks posted here on the forums. No one, and I do mean no one, runs those crappy ramp spells in optimized lists. It's not about choice, it's not about preference, it's not about how you play a deck, it's literally just math. Some combinations of cards will yield higher win %s than others because they include objectively superior cards. The fact that Nature's Lore puts an untapped Dual or a Murmuring Bosk (or two Duals/a dual and Bosk in Skyshroud Claims place) into play on turn 1-2 so that you can cast your cantrip/counterspell/etc. is massive and you still get your color fixing and one land ramp. Obviously you don't get the extra land for down the road but that's irrelevant when you're doing your "powerful play" faster than everyone else. The fact that your ramp spell only costs 1 mana (virtually) typically enables you to cast multiple spells per turn which is almost always better than tapping 3 mana to effectively Rampant Growth. You're just never going to see cards like Cultivate in the list that people like Glix, Razzilox, Shaper and all of the other competitive EDH players who play in the cEDH leagues because they're strictly worse than the alternatives if you're attempting to maximize your overall win %.
Clearly I'm not saying that "you're not allowed to play with Cultivate" or any BS like that but at the same time I'm not going to sit here and have someone state "every card has the same win %." That's just blatantly incorrect and optimizing your lists necessitates that you play "the best cards" and not "cards that some person at some casual table won a game with." I've seen countless Green cEDH lists, decks that I'm happily willing to post if needed, and none of them include Cultivate. None of the decks that cEDH league players field use Cultivate. It's not a powerful Magic card at all and will never make the cut in the best versions of the best decks.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
1 Cinder Glade
2 Rogue's Passage
16 Forest
3 Kessig Wolf Run
Sorcery
2 Shamanic Revelation
4 Overwhelming Stampede
4 Overgrowth
4 Wild Growth
Creature
4 Arbor Elf
2 Hydra Omnivore
4 Leatherback Baloth
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Realm Seekers
4 Ulvenwald Hydra
2 Sylvan Primordial
Some preliminary testing has shown this to be significantly better. First, what further changes would any of you make?
Next, are there any situations that I should mulligan specific to this deck? The deck starts off extremely slow without having a 1 or 2-drop in my opening hand. Should I mulligan in this case? Also, if all I get is one Voyaging Satyr, I am not ahead on mana until turn 3, and may lose my chance to gain board advantage. Especially since, if I have a bad draw with limited to no mana generation, the only other creature I can get out relatively fast is Leatherback Baloth. Am I expecting too much of the deck? With these things considered, to make sure things move quickly, I must mulligan around 30% of the time. This seems high. Should I be more patient or is there a way to change the deck?
Finally, a problem I suspect with all decks with decent mana generation, I the game starts well, then around turn 5 or 6, my hand may only have one card in it! Should I put in another Shamanic Revelation? If so, what should I remove? Or, is there a better method of solving this problem?
Also, Atanar, I too like doubling hydras, but they are, unfortunately, out of my budget.
Leatherback Baloth seems like building in the opposite direction of where you want to be. Are you ever going to be happy casting that on turn two instead of Overgrowth? If you're falling behind on your gameplan, is a vanilla 4/5 really going to right the ship? If you're really concerned about not drawing into enough ramp you could always add more, like Utopia Sprawl but I suspect that you have plenty.
Someone can please double-check me on the statistics but I think your odds of seeing at least one Wild Growth or Arbor Elf across your opening draw, free mulligan and mull to 6 + scry 1 are 96%. I arrived at that by plugging the odds of drawing one from a pool of 8 successes in an overall population of 60 with 7 attempts into a hypergeometric distribution--which by itself gives a 65% chance of seeing at least one. Then I plugged three such attempts into a binomial distribution looking for one success and arrived at 96%. Unless I got the math wrong, I think you're odds of finding a good starting hand with 2 mulligans are pretty good (though I didn't account for also drawing lands so some portion of those hands wouldn't be keepable.)
It seems like this deck is going tall rather than wide, so what about using the new Rishkar's Expertise instead of Shamanic Revelation?
You've got a 80% chance of at least one of your 1-drops in your hand at your third draw. I think you are exaggerating with how much you have to mulligan because of that, because even a Voyaging Satyr into Overgrowth is still powerful, it's 85% that you have a 1-drop or satyr on turn 2. Any hand where you can expect to drop a 6-mana creature at turn 4 is a keeper. And a 15% mulligan rate in multiplayer is perfectly acceptable.
I don't know why you took out the Stonehoof Chieftain completely, I think it's great as a 1-of. You probably don't need 4 of the overwhelming Stampede, you don't want multiples early on. 2-3 is better than 4.
I personally hate the Overwhelming Stampede suggestion and I never play with those kinds of cards myself. OOC is Genesis Wave on the table at all? The way I generally play these decks is -4x Leatherback Baloth, -4x Stampede, +4x Skullwinder/Eternal Witness/Greenwarden of Murasa, +4x Genesis Wave. All you do is Genesis Wave into fatties + recursion for your Genesis Waves so that you can slam your entire deck into play if desired. I don't even mean that hyperbolically, you can literally cast your entire deck past a certain point. Hell, I routinely add a card like Elixir of Immortality just to avoid decking.
EDIT:
Just so we're clear, when I say "the math supports" it's because I've done the math and math is overwhelming.
Using hypergeometric distribution we can determine that the probability of drawing one or more copies of a specific 8-of in your opening hand to be 0.653593571031819 which we'll round to 65% for simplicity's sake. Given that you receive a free mulligan in a multiplayer setting should you fail to find that "key card" on your first look you can then take another crack at it. Once again you'll have a 65% chance of locating your "key card" as none of the variables or numbers have changed. Now let's assume that you're willing to mull down to 6 cards in a multiplayer setting if you think that it will improve your chances of succeeding. That's fair right? Well, once you mulligan a second time you get to see 6 cards + Scry 1 and assuming that your Scry isn't your "key card" then at the start of your turn you get an 8th crack at it when you draw your card. That is, on your second mulligan you get to see up to 8 cards and that calculates out to a 0.705881333894941 probability of finding your "key card." For simplicity's sake we'll use 70% so that I can't be accused of inflating numbers but it doesn't matter one way or another. All told the cumulative probability of finding the key card that you're looking for calculates out to be 0.65 + (1-0.65)(0.65) + (1-0.65)(1-0.65)(0.70)= 0.96325 or 96%. While this number is slightly inflated given that it's undeniably possible to draw hands that include your "key card" but that you cannot possibly keep it still highlights why the mulligan phase is such an important aspect of multiplayer deck-building. Insofar as you're willing to blindly mull for a card you have an extremely high probability of finding it which opens far more doors than you can possibly imagine.
Bear in mind that I also play a lot of Magic, this isn't "pure theory" or anything, but it helps when you can prove why what you're saying is true using numbers and calculations that any other individual could replicate for themselves. It's not my opinion, it's not hearsay, it's an objective fact that's true regardless of who replicates the experiment/the calculations. We're all bound by the same laws of hypergeometric distribution and cumulative probability so that 96% is true for 100% of players in 100% of decks.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
This helps. It is the part that I struggle with. I do not like to have it be part of my strategy... Something for me to work on though!
Why don't you like Overwhelming Stampede? Because it cannot be re-used? Unfortunately, Genesis Wave is a bit too expensive for me right now. It is a really cool card though. If not that or Overwhelming Stampede, what would you suggest me use?
It's different, there's no question about it, but it's an actual rule and not just something that people like me made up to give ourselves an advantage. I understand why some people would hesitate to "abuse" it, it certainly feels as though you're "cheating the system" at times, but it's completely on-the-level from a rules perspective.
Take another thing for example. I'll often play with my Snuff Outs face up when I'm playing casual games with newer players. Why? Because it's not against the rules and players are significantly less likely to attack you when they know that they're 100% sending their dragon to its death. Is it weird? Sure, but you're allowed to reveal cards in your hand to your adversaries and if that gives me an advantage then I'm going to employ it. I clearly wouldn't do this if it were against the rules but as far as I can tell there's literally nothing preventing you from employing these tactics.
Overwhelming Stampede only wins games that you were already going to win and will never turn games that you were going to lose. I'll admit that I'm heavily biased because my meta has long since adopted interaction and mass removal but the problem that I have with these kinds of spell-based finishers is that they're literally worthless when players are slamming Wrath of Gods and such on a frequent basis. That's why I tend to prefer playing things like Genesis Wave, Lifecrafter's Bestiary, Defense of the Heart, Harmonize, Greater Good, Lurking Predators, Rishkar's Expertise, Nissa's Revelation, etc. that generate card advantage and rely on a critical-mass of value threats and spell lands to close games out. The only "Overruns" that I tend to employ are Triumph of the Hordes, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Craterhoof Behemoth. Crafterhoof is simply the best one by an order of magnitude and it's a large threat in case the game goes on. Triumph of the Hordes is A) broken and B) gives you an out to infinite lifegain and other nonsense. It's absolutely bonkers in team-based formats/EDH where life totals are exceptionally high because at worst it halves the damage that you're required to deal in order to win (and even quarters it in EDH!). Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is really cool because not only can you activate him multiple times every turn but his animate land ability gives you insane resilience against mass removal. After all, if someone casts Wrath of God you animate all of their lands as a "screw you" to ensure their demise as well. But still, it's not even a questiuon in my mind when it comes to Overrun or whatever vs Kamahl. Kamahl can be activated multiples times every turn, has a body himself and gives you resilience against the best hate against your critical-mass strategy.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I suspect it will be fine, but I am not sure. With 4x Realm Seekers and 4x Ulvenwald Hydra able to tutor, it should be easier.
Also, two cards mentioned by Prid3 that I am considering adding in are Nissa's Revelation and Lifecrafter's Bestiary. Both should help find Cinder Glade.
I also like Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. It works really well with the strategy of the deck. It’s cost is getting closer to Genesis Wave, though. Would it be better to just go with Genesis Wave?
I could also add back in 1x Stonehoof Chieftain.
If I go with these cards, a possible deck list may look like this:
1 Cinder Glade
2 Rogue's Passage
16 Forest
3 Kessig Wolf Run
Sorcery
2 Nissa's Revelation
2 Overwhelming Stampede
4 Overgrowth
4 Wild Growth
Artifact
2 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
Creature
4 Arbor Elf
2 Hydra Omnivore
2 Leatherback Baloth
3 Voyaging Satyr
4 Realm Seekers
4 Ulvenwald Hydra
2 Sylvan Primordial
1 Stonehoof Chieftain
2 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
If I do go with Genesis Wave, I could remove the two remaining Overwhelming Stampede’s and put in two cards to better support Genesis Wave, whatever those may be.
Thoughts?
Run Kessig Wolf Run as a 1-of and call it a day. I understand that you have land untappers but you've never going to use it multiple times per circuit.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Oh for sure, I'm just saying that we can go above and beyond the intent of the rule and actually abuse it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Think Karn Liberated...
In my meta I wouldn't dare running just one source of red mana.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
You already have quite a few creatures that have strong green devotion. (leatherback baloth is great)
In a group game, board wipes will completely **** you as a mono green player, so I would also recommend getting some indestructible stuff, or maybe some instants that make your stuff indestructable.. IE Heroic Intervention
Garruk Wildspeaker can untap 2 target lands (including your Nykthos or any special lands - not just forests). Honestly he is much better than Voyaging Satyr
You have WAY too few lands, for a ramp deck as well.
I would recommend 2 Primeval Titan as well.
If you really want to put a clock on the game and scare your opponents in a multiplayer FFA... can't go wrong with Managorger Hydra. By the time your next turn comes around he'll probably have at least 5 or 6 counters.. remember casting spells includes summoning creatures.
I love mono green and I'm a casual player as well. Honestly I've run with tons of different green cards, different decks.. I've went hard on landfall, and different types of ramp. Devotion ramp is the best, by far.. imo.
Check out this list -
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/budget-magic-88-50-tix-mono-green-devotion-modern
It's a modern list, but you can take what you want and leave what you don't.. like for instance don't bother shelling out 5 bucks for Utopia Sprawl when you already have the Wild Growth.
Last point for today. The most glaring omission I see in your deck is that you aren't running Primal Command. Just adding 4 of those in your deck will make it sooo much better. Definitely get rid of the Shamanic Revelation in lieu of the command.
I forgot to mention how important Eternal Witness and Craterhoof Behemoth are in a ramp deck.
Craterhoof will literally end games on his own, as long as you have a bit of board presence prior to casting him.
Sorry for all that - you just got me all excited talking about mono green in multiplayer LOL
Definitely great if you're going devotion, but when you're fielding Kessig Wolf Run and/or Rogue's Passage you start to really strain how reliably you can land a turn 1 Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl, which is extremely important for explosive starts. T1 Wild Growth/Arbor Elf, T2 Wild Growth/Overgrowth/Voyaging Satyr, T3 Sylvan Primordial is a real play that happens more often than you'd think. Then you're sitting at 12 mana and can tutor up Kessig Wolf Run to start OTKing people.
Where you play Leatherback Baloth I play Predator Ooze. It's much better on offense and defense and can get out of control quick. I'd never play Heroic Intervention in a deck like this. Why worry about a board wipe when you can get everything back next turn with Genesis Wave? Or threaten to one-shot the guy who Wrathed with your Xenagos, God of Revels + Kessig Wolf Run + any creature? And why seal off two mana every turn, effectively double Stone Raining yourself, in a ramp deck?
Garruk is also 4 mana whereas Voyaging Satyr/Arbor Elf drop early. And he's not exactly cheap $$$-wise either.
Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl/Overgrowth are all better than lands in this style of deck because they:
Again, great card, big $$$.
Managorger Hydra isn't a bad beater but I usually end up cutting it because Kessig Wolf Run turns every creature into a one-hit kill eventually.
Cut a great draw/lifegain spell for a marginal tutor/lifegain/shuffle effect? I don't think I'd ever play Primal Command in a generic multiplayer deck.