That's 46 cards. What do you guys suggest for the remaining 14 slots? Obviously the shocks make life totals a little more hairy, but I'm just going to have to deal with that. I'm thinking I want ramp... I don't want to have to wait until turn 4 to cast Aluren... I'll get beat down before I can get the combo off as soon as people know what I'm trying to do. I thought about adding in 4x Burgeoning and draw like Mystic Remora or Day's Undoing.
Interesting. I kinda like that. In this case, you are able to survive until t4 because early blockers, and removal. I actually should have thought of Shardless Agent myself... that's a sweet addition.
Interesting. I kinda like that. In this case, you are able to survive until t4 because early blockers, and removal. I actually should have thought of Shardless Agent myself... that's a sweet addition.
It's a fantastic card advantage engine, especially when paired with Cavern Harpy. The deck can play a reasonable "value" game by constantly blinking Oracle/Agent/Witness to generate a ton of card advantage.
In hindsight I'm not sure if Beast Within is the best removal spell for the job since Shardless can't Cascade into it. That being said I can't think of a better spell to field that hits everything. Obviously cards like Plow and Nature's Claim are great but none of them kill everything whereas BW does. Blue bounce could work but only in the short-run.
I don't think that you really need more than one Cavern Harpy. One has been quite fine in my experience (I play the imperial recruiter version in legacy).
If your casual group doesn't run things like wasteland, I would consider one Overgrown Tomb and then a set of Deathrite Shaman.
Also, if you're on a shardless package with minimal black splash, I'd consider Meddling Mage as a replacement for the more traditional Cabal Therapy.
In the spoilers below are two lists from the Legacy thread that might give you additional ideas for card inclusions or build directions. The white list was spitballing. The red list is fairly well tuned for that format.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Also, if you're on a shardless package with minimal black splash, I'd consider Meddling Mage as a replacement for the more traditional Cabal Therapy.
I've never understood why people run those kinds of cards in MP. What are you ever naming and why? That card, to me, is a Grizzly Bears with a relevant upside 1/20 games.
Dimer Infiltrator doesn't tutor for Parasitic Strix.
I'm also not sure why you think I need black perms to combo with the Cavern Harpy (I assume that's what you meant by Strix...). All I care about is bouncing the Strix, Merfolk, or Coiling Oracle... why would I need a specifically black perm?
Also, not sure if you missed it, but Coiling Oracle does basically what Baleful Strix does when paired with the Harpy.
I've seen Aluren in duels - but not in MP before with this sort of combo build.
How resilient is it? Can it take down the whole table quickly?
It's a slower but more reliable combo deck that fields a significantly higher % of cards "that matter" relative to most combo builds. After all, you're legitimately deploying blockers and most of creatures combo together to create card advantage engines. That being said you're extremely soft to enchantment removal and this is true even though the deck can win at instant-speed. You can't actually sit back and play a "fair game of Magic" and still expect to win so you kind of have to "go for it" at some point. You'll rarely have more than 1 counterspell as backup but assuming that you manage to dodge key interaction spells that you can beat spot removal. It's not a tier 1 combo deck in that sense but it's easily tier 2.
It's just as quick to kill the whole table in Multiplayer as it is to kill one person in a duel. Unless everyone makes you go through each iteration of bounce/cast until everyone dies... but it's all on the same turn and with the same 4cmc.
I'm also not sure why you think I need black perms to combo with the Cavern Harpy (I assume that's what you meant by Strix...). All I care about is bouncing the Strix, Merfolk, or Coiling Oracle... why would I need a specifically black perm?
You're exactly right. On an unrelated note, for multiplayer purposes I would strongly consider or advise one maindeck Sedraxis Alchemist.
For the utility of the other poster, here's the breakdown I give on the Imperial build's kill. The white version is essentially the same (sub recruiter for recruiter, and arctic merfolk in for dream stalker).
Notice how the deck naturally assembles Cavern Harpy + Parasitic Strix and that cavern harpy serves as the black card for strix. Additionally, Cavern Harpy with either Coiling Oracle or Baleful Strix (and to a lesser extent, Shardless Agent) allows the deck to go into Yawgmoth's Bargain mode and just directly convert life to card draw.
I've seen Aluren in duels - but not in MP before with this sort of combo build.
How resilient is it? Can it take down the whole table quickly?
It's a slower but more reliable combo deck that fields a significantly higher % of cards "that matter" relative to most combo builds. After all, you're legitimately deploying blockers and most of creatures combo together to create card advantage engines. That being said you're extremely soft to enchantment removal and this is true even though the deck can win at instant-speed. You can't actually sit back and play a "fair game of Magic" and still expect to win so you kind of have to "go for it" at some point. You'll rarely have more than 1 counterspell as backup but assuming that you manage to dodge key interaction spells that you can beat spot removal. It's not a tier 1 combo deck in that sense but it's easily tier 2.
Enchantment removal is less of a problem because you can normally resolve aluren and then wait to pounce on the open window when they make their move.
In 1v1 scenarios, the deck wins a LOT of its games by fair beatdown. In multiplayer, you may be right that comboing is more necessary. I have no idea what you're even talking about with "Tier" in casual
If you mean legacy, by all means come by the forum and we can discuss it in the proper context (rather than derailing this thread)
As for your question on meddling mage: I would expect her to have some familiarity with most decks at the table or be able to predict what hate cards they likely run. In such a case, meddling mage allows playing through hate. With Aluren in play, either they respond and you respond to them with the kill, or they don't respond and you kill them. Meddling Mage also can preemptively come down without issue.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
As for your question on meddling mage: I would expect her to have some familiarity with most decks at the table or be able to predict what hate cards they likely run.
And you think that's a reasonable assumption to make in a multiplayer setting? That she'll always have a strong read on what removal is being played, who's holding it, and precisely which piece that they're holding? Because that seems wildly improbably to me. Your baseline assumption seems to be "she's an expert level player with intimate knowledge of every aspect of the game." If I had to guess I'd put her in the 99% of players who hasn't poured tens of thousands of hours and/or dollars in the game over multiple decades. Even if she were on a "pro" level I still think that it's ridiculous to suggest that she could reliably name the right card with MM and once you assume that she's a "normal person" then the probability drops to right about 0%. I would be shocked if you yourself could reliably extract value from the card were you forced to field the deck yourself in a competitive MP setting. I don't mean that as a slight either because I know that I certainly couldn't. Facing down 4 players and I have to A) Guess who has it and B) Name the right card between FOW, Nature's Claim, Abolish, Chain of Vapor, etc. seems improbable at best. To suggest that a normal person who, in all statistical likelihood, doesn't have every answer spell memorized leads me to believe that you haven't helped many newer/inexperienced players build decks. If you blindly assume that they're a master of the game then you're not living in reality. MM's average use-case will be Grizzly Bears and it's silly to suggest otherwise.
I don't understand why you wouldn't simply field permission and remove all of that random guesswork. Consistent answers that aren't RNG dependent figure to boast significantly higher win %s. If that means removing Shardless then so be it because I don't see how Meddling Mage is going to significantly improve her win %.
With Aluren in play, either they respond and you respond to them with the kill, or they don't respond and you kill them. Meddling Mage also can preemptively come down without issue.
You consistently win multiplayer games on the back of 1/1 and 2/2 creature beats? Why bother with Aluren if the table is already drawing dead to Merfolk of the Pearl Trident?
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
3 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Arctic Merfolk
2 Cavern Harpy
1 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Recruiter of the Guard
Spells (16)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Aluren
4 Force of Will
That's 46 cards. What do you guys suggest for the remaining 14 slots? Obviously the shocks make life totals a little more hairy, but I'm just going to have to deal with that. I'm thinking I want ramp... I don't want to have to wait until turn 4 to cast Aluren... I'll get beat down before I can get the combo off as soon as people know what I'm trying to do. I thought about adding in 4x Burgeoning and draw like Mystic Remora or Day's Undoing.
Coiling Oracle is also certainly a possibility.
Any thoughts?
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
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4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Windswept Heath
2x Breeding Pool
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Temple Garden
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Coiling Oracle
3x Cavern Harpy
1x Arctic Merfolk
4x Parasitic Strix
4x Recruiter of the Guard
4x Shardless Agent
1x Eternal Witness
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Beast Within
4x Aluren
4x Force of Will
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
It's a fantastic card advantage engine, especially when paired with Cavern Harpy. The deck can play a reasonable "value" game by constantly blinking Oracle/Agent/Witness to generate a ton of card advantage.
In hindsight I'm not sure if Beast Within is the best removal spell for the job since Shardless can't Cascade into it. That being said I can't think of a better spell to field that hits everything. Obviously cards like Plow and Nature's Claim are great but none of them kill everything whereas BW does. Blue bounce could work but only in the short-run.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Decay is fantastic but you're not playing Black :P. Deathrite Shaman, Baleful Strix, there's plenty of solid Black options.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Lol. Too many things taking up space in my brain.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
If your casual group doesn't run things like wasteland, I would consider one Overgrown Tomb and then a set of Deathrite Shaman.
Also, if you're on a shardless package with minimal black splash, I'd consider Meddling Mage as a replacement for the more traditional Cabal Therapy.
Lastly, you should consider Edric, Spymaster of Trest as a silver bullet to tutor for.
In the spoilers below are two lists from the Legacy thread that might give you additional ideas for card inclusions or build directions. The white list was spitballing. The red list is fairly well tuned for that format.
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Baleful Strix
2 Shardless Agent
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
Enchantment: 4
4 Aluren
Spells: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Force of Will
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Plague
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Null Rod
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Minister of Pain
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Fire Imp
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bone Shredder
1 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Shardless Agent
2 Arctic Merfolk
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Wasteland Strangler
1 Karakas
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
2 True Name Nemesis
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Pithing Needle
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Plague
0 Meddling Mage
0 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
0 Phyrexian Revoker
0 Containment Priest
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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I've never understood why people run those kinds of cards in MP. What are you ever naming and why? That card, to me, is a Grizzly Bears with a relevant upside 1/20 games.
Edric seems sweet though.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Channel Fireball has a sweet Blue Aluren Video up at the moment that is probably worth watching.
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-pardee-time-legacy-blue-aluren/
It plays Baleful Strix with Cavern Harpy to draw your whole deck.
It also plays Dimir Infiltrator instead of Recruiter of the Guard as a tutor for your combo creatures.
I'm also not sure why you think I need black perms to combo with the Cavern Harpy (I assume that's what you meant by Strix...). All I care about is bouncing the Strix, Merfolk, or Coiling Oracle... why would I need a specifically black perm?
Also, not sure if you missed it, but Coiling Oracle does basically what Baleful Strix does when paired with the Harpy.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
How resilient is it? Can it take down the whole table quickly?
It's a slower but more reliable combo deck that fields a significantly higher % of cards "that matter" relative to most combo builds. After all, you're legitimately deploying blockers and most of creatures combo together to create card advantage engines. That being said you're extremely soft to enchantment removal and this is true even though the deck can win at instant-speed. You can't actually sit back and play a "fair game of Magic" and still expect to win so you kind of have to "go for it" at some point. You'll rarely have more than 1 counterspell as backup but assuming that you manage to dodge key interaction spells that you can beat spot removal. It's not a tier 1 combo deck in that sense but it's easily tier 2.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
For the utility of the other poster, here's the breakdown I give on the Imperial build's kill. The white version is essentially the same (sub recruiter for recruiter, and arctic merfolk in for dream stalker).
The "typical" combo goes like this:
Start: Aluren in play, Imperial Recruiter in hand.
Cast Imperial Recruiter, fetch Imperial Recruiter.
Repeat two or three times. You now have 3-4 Imperial Recruiter in play.
The final Imperial Recruiter trigger should fetch Dream Stalker.
If you have any Cabal Therapies in the grave and you're not forced to be going off at instant speed, you may want to doubly confirm here that you're not walking into Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast or something similar here. (this is specific to the context of Legacy)
Cast Dream Stalker, bounce Imperial Recruiter. Note that the multiple Imperial Recruiters in play mean that you are protected against most all common removal that isn't Pyrokinesis or Terminus because Dream Stalker doesn't target. (this is less important in the white version because Arctic Merfolk's bounce is a cost)
Cast Imperial Recruiter, fetch Dream Stalker.
Cast Dream Stalker, bounce Imperial Recruiter.
Cast Imperial Recruiter, fetch Cavern Harpy.
Cast Cavern Harpy, bounce Dream Stalker.
Cast Dream Stalker, bounce Imperial Recruiter.
Cast Imperial Recruiter, fetch Parasitic Strix.
Depending on your life total here, you may use Cavern Harpy to bounce your two Dream Stalkers to hand to provide extra protection.
Stack one or more Cavern Harpy bounce triggers (you can stack multiple by paying one life to bounce it in response to its trigger and then cast it again with the trigger still on the stack). Leave Cavern Harpy in play with those trigger(s) on the stack.
Cast Parasitic Strix. Let the drain trigger resolve. Let a Cavern Harpy trigger resolve to bounce Parasitic Strix.
Repeat as necessary. Note that you're able to pay one life to bounce Cavern Harpy and recast it to save anything on the board at any time. This is even more true if you're able to stock your Dream Stalkers in hand, since they represent additional bounce back-up.
Notice how the deck naturally assembles Cavern Harpy + Parasitic Strix and that cavern harpy serves as the black card for strix. Additionally, Cavern Harpy with either Coiling Oracle or Baleful Strix (and to a lesser extent, Shardless Agent) allows the deck to go into Yawgmoth's Bargain mode and just directly convert life to card draw.
[/quote] Enchantment removal is less of a problem because you can normally resolve aluren and then wait to pounce on the open window when they make their move.
In 1v1 scenarios, the deck wins a LOT of its games by fair beatdown. In multiplayer, you may be right that comboing is more necessary. I have no idea what you're even talking about with "Tier" in casual
If you mean legacy, by all means come by the forum and we can discuss it in the proper context (rather than derailing this thread)
As for your question on meddling mage: I would expect her to have some familiarity with most decks at the table or be able to predict what hate cards they likely run. In such a case, meddling mage allows playing through hate. With Aluren in play, either they respond and you respond to them with the kill, or they don't respond and you kill them. Meddling Mage also can preemptively come down without issue.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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You're not going to win many multiplayer games by casting 1/1s and 2/2s and passing the turn.
A tier is a level within the hierarchy of a structural organization system.
And you think that's a reasonable assumption to make in a multiplayer setting? That she'll always have a strong read on what removal is being played, who's holding it, and precisely which piece that they're holding? Because that seems wildly improbably to me. Your baseline assumption seems to be "she's an expert level player with intimate knowledge of every aspect of the game." If I had to guess I'd put her in the 99% of players who hasn't poured tens of thousands of hours and/or dollars in the game over multiple decades. Even if she were on a "pro" level I still think that it's ridiculous to suggest that she could reliably name the right card with MM and once you assume that she's a "normal person" then the probability drops to right about 0%. I would be shocked if you yourself could reliably extract value from the card were you forced to field the deck yourself in a competitive MP setting. I don't mean that as a slight either because I know that I certainly couldn't. Facing down 4 players and I have to A) Guess who has it and B) Name the right card between FOW, Nature's Claim, Abolish, Chain of Vapor, etc. seems improbable at best. To suggest that a normal person who, in all statistical likelihood, doesn't have every answer spell memorized leads me to believe that you haven't helped many newer/inexperienced players build decks. If you blindly assume that they're a master of the game then you're not living in reality. MM's average use-case will be Grizzly Bears and it's silly to suggest otherwise.
I don't understand why you wouldn't simply field permission and remove all of that random guesswork. Consistent answers that aren't RNG dependent figure to boast significantly higher win %s. If that means removing Shardless then so be it because I don't see how Meddling Mage is going to significantly improve her win %.
Sure, if you assume that she's Nostradamus.
You consistently win multiplayer games on the back of 1/1 and 2/2 creature beats? Why bother with Aluren if the table is already drawing dead to Merfolk of the Pearl Trident?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U