Moment's Peace and Constant Mists are almost strictly better than your current Fogs. Field 4x Preordain in addition to 4x Ponder since the deck needs spells moreso than anything else. You can shave a land or two as needed since you'll have a ton of cantrips to compensate. Brainstorm, Impulse, Peer Through Depths, this deck should run a ton of cantrips and fewer lands/Fogs.
You're going to want way more draw spells. This insures you'll get more fogs and land drops. Don't worry about ramping. You'll be slowing the game down enough as it is.
I'd cut the ramp spells and go for draw. I'd say quantity over quality, when it comes to Turbo Fog. Although it's nice to run some cantrips, you'll want a lot of cards to generate card advantage rather than selection. Cards like Treasure Cruise might seem counter-intuitive with your win condition, but it is an absolute bomb in this archetype and shouldn't eat up your whole graveyard. If you want to go with Ramp and card draw, Rites of Flourishing is a good option.
When it comes to Fogs, there are a few things to consider. An important factor is that if your opponents don't know what you're up to, cards like Tangle and Spore Cloud will have a larger impact because people won't be as careful when attacking into, which in turn makes them vulnerable to others' attacks for two turns. If they know what they're up against, cards like Moment's Peace, Constant Mists and Isochron Scepter are much more solid. I wouldn't be running the original Fog, but rather something like Prid3 mentioned or even Respite.
Something between 20-24 lands is usually acceptable. Since you're running a very expensive win condition, 21-22 seems like enough.
Last thing: You don't need 4X Quicken and Rise From the Tides. I'd probably cut two Rise and at least 1 Quicken to make room for more draw spells.
High Tide beats the crap out of any Green ramp spell and Whelming Wave trounces any Fog. You could even add Frantic Search if you didn't care about Legality. Why are we wasting our time, energy and consistency with weak Green cards when Blue can already do everything better?
High Tide beats the crap out of any Green ramp spell and Whelming Wave trounces any Fog. You could even add Frantic Search if you didn't care about Legality. Why are we wasting our time, energy and consistency with weak Green cards when Blue can already do everything better?
Because all of the 'fogs' you used here cost 4 and are occasionally sorcery-speed, versus instants costing 1 or 2. Also, btw, High Tide is useless T1 and mana-equivalent T2 -- so if your goal is to play one fog a turn on each opponent's turn (rather than comboing off), why waste your time when you could either play it T3 to accelerate out a 4-mana fog, or play Elvish Mystic or Rampant Growth for the same effect the previous turn for lasting benefits? Or, even better, why bother ramping at all when you could just be casting spells that cost 1 or 2 each?
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General notes: Turbo-Fog, as a rule, includes things like Howling Mine/Dictate of Kruphix/Otherworld Atlas because as long as it draws one Fog a turn it doesn't care about what its opponent draws. Including Rise from the Tides might change this, however, so ignoring most of this advice might be valid.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Because all of the 'fogs' you used here cost 4 and are occasionally sorcery-speed, versus instants costing 1 or 2.
That only negate one combat phase from one opponent. What good is a Fog in a 4 player FFA when all 3 adversaries are beating you down every turn because you're not fielding any blockers? Mana efficiency is irrelevant if you're dead. Let's assume that he takes your advice and fields draw engines. Are you suggesting that he'll reliably draw 3 or more Fogs every turn in order to neutralize creature-based aggression? Because that seems like a rather farfetch'd claim to me. Drawing 1x Whelming Wave is a Hell of a lot easier than drawing 3x Fog.
Also, btw, High Tide is useless T1 and mana-equivalent T2 -- so if your goal is to play one fog a turn on each opponent's turn (rather than comboing off), why waste your time when you could either play it T3 to accelerate out a 4-mana fog, or play Elvish Mystic or Rampant Growth for the same effect the previous turn for lasting benefits? Or, even better, why bother ramping at all when you could just be casting spells that cost 1 or 2 each?
High Tide isn't designed to be cast during the first 3 turns of the game. Rather, it's one that you should be looking cast on turns 4+ alongside land untappers such as Snap, Frantic Search, Turnabout and/or Time Spiral in order to generate an obscene quantity of mana. After all, a simple High Tide -> tap all lands -> Turnabout nets 10 mana on turn 4 when all's said and done. That's assuming that you only jam 1x High Tide and 1x Turnabout when you could easily cast multiples of either (or both). With 10 mana you can then cast a bunch of cantrips and/or cast your Rise from the Tides with multiple Counterspell backups. Obviously that 10 mana multiplies exponentially the longer that you wait and the more High Tides and Turnabouts that you can assemble. It's entirely possible to burn through your entire library, especially if you field Frantic Search and a big X draw spell such as Blue Sun's Zenith.
Red is also an option for Thieves' Auction, Warp World and a few other chaos type cards to have fun with.... like GOblin Game ha ha
I think you're right to use green for cards like Explore, but could red chaos be your bag?
Because all of the 'fogs' you used here cost 4 and are occasionally sorcery-speed, versus instants costing 1 or 2.
That only negate one combat phase from one opponent. What good is a Fog in a 4 player FFA when all 3 adversaries are beating you down every turn because you're not fielding any blockers? Mana efficiency is irrelevant if you're dead. Let's assume that he takes your advice and fields draw engines. Are you suggesting that he'll reliably draw 3 or more Fogs every turn in order to neutralize creature-based aggression? Because that seems like a rather farfetch'd claim to me. Drawing 1x Whelming Wave is a Hell of a lot easier than drawing 3x Fog.
...
Fair enough. I was thinking for 1v1 games, where it's only necessary to draw 1 Fog a turn (which is pretty easy) and where it's thus just easier and more efficient early-game to play the cheap option. I see your point in 4-player groups, though.
I will note that with Fog, attacking you for no value leaves the opponent open, so there's a lot you can do with politics (especially since your Howling Mines makes you the Hug player). That said, that only goes so far, and it probably is just better to play mass bounce. If you're willing to go that far, though, isn't it just better to splash white for Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, whatever, considering that your mass bounce gets rid of your Zombies too anyway?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
I will note that with Fog, attacking you for no value leaves the opponent open, so there's a lot you can do with politics (especially since your Howling Mines makes you the Hug player).
You just send 1 creature at him each combat and keep everything else back on D. It's the easiest thing in the world to beat since it doesn't actually leave you vulnerable.
If you're willing to go that far, though, isn't it just better to splash white for Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, whatever, considering that your mass bounce gets rid of your Zombies too anyway?
Splashing either makes the deck significantly less affordable or significantly less fast and reliable.
4 Quicken
4 Tangle
4 Counterspell
4 Spore cloud
1 Dispel
4 Fog
4 Ponder
4 Rise from the Tides
4 Rampant Growth
4 Explore
4 Evolving Wilds
9 Island
10 Forest
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'd cut the ramp spells and go for draw. I'd say quantity over quality, when it comes to Turbo Fog. Although it's nice to run some cantrips, you'll want a lot of cards to generate card advantage rather than selection. Cards like Treasure Cruise might seem counter-intuitive with your win condition, but it is an absolute bomb in this archetype and shouldn't eat up your whole graveyard. If you want to go with Ramp and card draw, Rites of Flourishing is a good option.
When it comes to Fogs, there are a few things to consider. An important factor is that if your opponents don't know what you're up to, cards like Tangle and Spore Cloud will have a larger impact because people won't be as careful when attacking into, which in turn makes them vulnerable to others' attacks for two turns. If they know what they're up against, cards like Moment's Peace, Constant Mists and Isochron Scepter are much more solid. I wouldn't be running the original Fog, but rather something like Prid3 mentioned or even Respite.
Something between 20-24 lands is usually acceptable. Since you're running a very expensive win condition, 21-22 seems like enough.
Last thing: You don't need 4X Quicken and Rise From the Tides. I'd probably cut two Rise and at least 1 Quicken to make room for more draw spells.
UGTurboFogGU
BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
22x Island
Spells (38)
4x High Tide
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
2x Quicken
4x Impulse
2x Merchant Scroll
2x Counterspell
4x Whelming Wave
4x Engulf the Shore
4x Turnabout
4x Rise from the Tides
High Tide beats the crap out of any Green ramp spell and Whelming Wave trounces any Fog. You could even add Frantic Search if you didn't care about Legality. Why are we wasting our time, energy and consistency with weak Green cards when Blue can already do everything better?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
You could go a cheap defender route with fog banks and axebanes if you want in order to get it out early and have some relevant blockers too.
You could also run some cheap artifacts and artifact lands for Tinker if your group allows it.
Because all of the 'fogs' you used here cost 4 and are occasionally sorcery-speed, versus instants costing 1 or 2. Also, btw, High Tide is useless T1 and mana-equivalent T2 -- so if your goal is to play one fog a turn on each opponent's turn (rather than comboing off), why waste your time when you could either play it T3 to accelerate out a 4-mana fog, or play Elvish Mystic or Rampant Growth for the same effect the previous turn for lasting benefits? Or, even better, why bother ramping at all when you could just be casting spells that cost 1 or 2 each?
----------
General notes: Turbo-Fog, as a rule, includes things like Howling Mine/Dictate of Kruphix/Otherworld Atlas because as long as it draws one Fog a turn it doesn't care about what its opponent draws. Including Rise from the Tides might change this, however, so ignoring most of this advice might be valid.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
That only negate one combat phase from one opponent. What good is a Fog in a 4 player FFA when all 3 adversaries are beating you down every turn because you're not fielding any blockers? Mana efficiency is irrelevant if you're dead. Let's assume that he takes your advice and fields draw engines. Are you suggesting that he'll reliably draw 3 or more Fogs every turn in order to neutralize creature-based aggression? Because that seems like a rather farfetch'd claim to me. Drawing 1x Whelming Wave is a Hell of a lot easier than drawing 3x Fog.
High Tide isn't designed to be cast during the first 3 turns of the game. Rather, it's one that you should be looking cast on turns 4+ alongside land untappers such as Snap, Frantic Search, Turnabout and/or Time Spiral in order to generate an obscene quantity of mana. After all, a simple High Tide -> tap all lands -> Turnabout nets 10 mana on turn 4 when all's said and done. That's assuming that you only jam 1x High Tide and 1x Turnabout when you could easily cast multiples of either (or both). With 10 mana you can then cast a bunch of cantrips and/or cast your Rise from the Tides with multiple Counterspell backups. Obviously that 10 mana multiplies exponentially the longer that you wait and the more High Tides and Turnabouts that you can assemble. It's entirely possible to burn through your entire library, especially if you field Frantic Search and a big X draw spell such as Blue Sun's Zenith.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
A friend of mine was trying to make a fun cheap deck, but he gave up on it.
Red is also an option for Thieves' Auction, Warp World and a few other chaos type cards to have fun with.... like GOblin Game ha ha
I think you're right to use green for cards like Explore, but could red chaos be your bag?
Fair enough. I was thinking for 1v1 games, where it's only necessary to draw 1 Fog a turn (which is pretty easy) and where it's thus just easier and more efficient early-game to play the cheap option. I see your point in 4-player groups, though.
I will note that with Fog, attacking you for no value leaves the opponent open, so there's a lot you can do with politics (especially since your Howling Mines makes you the Hug player). That said, that only goes so far, and it probably is just better to play mass bounce. If you're willing to go that far, though, isn't it just better to splash white for Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, whatever, considering that your mass bounce gets rid of your Zombies too anyway?
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
You just send 1 creature at him each combat and keep everything else back on D. It's the easiest thing in the world to beat since it doesn't actually leave you vulnerable.
Splashing either makes the deck significantly less affordable or significantly less fast and reliable.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I mean, cards like Faithless Looting, Frantic Search, Manamorphose, Cathartic Reunion, Rite of Flame, Careful Study, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rain of Filth, Dark Petition etc etc.
Obviously these wouldn't all be in the same deck, but it's just an example of options.
FWIW, if you max out on 4x everything, with a Storm type build using looting cards, Pyromancer Ascension might be an option