Got it, you can throw filters, fetches, shocks and everything to support your argument but if I do then somehow now price is a factor.
I'm asking you for decks. Your argument is that the card has generic applications. I'm saying that it has niche applications. The decks that play Tendo Ice Bridge are very unique. Things like Amulet Bloom that can bounce it with Simic Growth Chamber, Bant Eldrazi decks that want to go turn 1 Noble Hierarch turn 2 Thought-knot Seer, very specific, weird decks that have unique play patterns. You don't see normal decks playing Tendo Ice Bridge. No Abzan or Jund list has them. America Control doesn't field them. Legacy/Vintage decks don't field it. I don't recall it doing anything in Standard.
W.r.t to price, I'm not sure what your point is. Is your argument that all of players can afford to add Bayous and Verdant Catacombs to their lists? Because that hasn't been my experience in the slightest.
My point is your argument is not rational. You listed the fetches, filters, shocks etc as cards you would play over aether hub. So I then listed the same cards as cards I would run over blooming marsh. Then you said well those are expensive. So I responded they were just as expensive when you listed them to support your argument. Now you are saying that tendo ice bridge never saw any play in legacy/vintage so its niche. That is just a completely preposterous thing to say as we both know that blooming marsh will never see any play in legacy/vintage. It won't see any play in modern either. That is a standard that 99.9% of cards can't meet including virtually every card in this set, many of which you gave fine grades. Yet those cards don't get niche reviews. You gave fumigate a C. Fumigate will NEVER be played in modern/legacy/vintage.
You don't like aether hub and that is fine. I still maintain that you underestimate it. I don't like blooming marsh and really can't envision ever running it in anything. Lets say I underestimate it. Clearly we aren't gonna agree. No point in either of us wasting more energy on this.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was the guy playing the relentless rats deck back during mirrodin and kamigawa blocks. Yes, cranial extraction was used on me. No, I didn't win much. Yes, I do have a relentless rats edh deck. No, it doesn't win much either...
OOC why do you equate "niche" with "weak"? In the description that I provided I clearly articulate that "niche" means "B-to-A in the right deck but unplayable elsewhere." That's exactly what Tendo Ice Bridge is. It sees no play in generic decks but is a total bomb in decks like Amulet Bloom that can pair it with Bouncelands to reset its counter. No one plays it in fair midrange/control/ramp decks but it's very good in specific combo decks. That doesn't make it bad, that makes it niche.
If you still equate "niche" with "weak" I encourage you to re-read my review for Dramatic Reversal. "Niche" cards are very good, the problem is simply that you can't blindly jam them into any old deck and expect to experience long-run success.
It's actually perfectly rational. The vast majority of MTG players can't afford $30.00+ cards and therefore need access to budget alternatives.
The word that you're looking for is "hypocritical." Being a hypocrite doesn't make me wrong. A fat doctor can tell you that you need to lose weight or else your health suffer in the long-run. Being fat himself doesn't make him wrong. People don't like taking advice from hypocrites (for obvious reasons) but the reality is that dismissing arguments simply because they originate from a hypocrite is a logical fallacy. An argument can still be valid even if it's coming from someone "who has no right to argue it." In that sense the only person making irrational arguments here is you because you're only dismissing my claims because they're hypocritical (which, again, is a logical fallacy). My argument is sound and rational, you just don't like the fact that it's coming from my mouth.
That's a non-zero amount of competitive play within recent memory.
FWIW I think you're confused as to what "competitive Vintage" et al means. You seem to be under the impression that I'm talking about duel tournament Magic. I'm not. This is a multiplayer set review and thread. "Competitive Vintage" means a Vintage B&R list and decks built with the goal of "winning." That's it. I don't assume that everyone can afford a perfect $12,000.00 Vintage deck because that's completely unrealistic. I have "competitive Vinatge decks" that don't have P9 and such because I can't afford them. My decks are still as optimized as I can afford to make them but I don't have 20 grand to blow on a hobby at this point in my life. In an ideal world I'd have all of the Moxen and such but I don't. That doesn't mean that I can't built a Vintage deck designed to win games of Magic. I can still go turn 1 Gemstone CavernsWaste Not into turn 2 Wheel of Fortune. Optimized builds with unlimited funds could certainly win more games but that's not reality for me and 99.999% of the playerbase. So when I say "Vinatge/Legacy" I'm not talking about a duel deck that you're bringing to a Bazaar of Moxen or anything. I'm talking about people building decks with certain restrictions while also acknowledging that "budget" is a serious concern for the vast majority of the playerbase.
Fast Lands see extensive competitive Modern play (still in 2016) and small amounts of competitive Legacy play (mostly pre-2015 but still some 2016) and a touch of competitive Vintage play.
I actually do like it. I'm going to be playing it as a 2-of in my Burgeoning + Summer Bloom deck. The card is amazing with Bouncelands and enables me to cast either Mystic Remora or Burgeoning on turn 1. it also helps me cast either Waste Not or Leovold, Emissary of Trest on turn 2-3 for a quick Windfall win. As such I'm personally going to playing it in some of my most competitive decks. These are literally turn 2-3 "I win the game" lists and they will include 1-2 copies of Aethub Hub. How am I dismissing it?
My argument isn't that it's bad. I'm arguing that it's niche in that it needs to be paired with blink/bounce effects. That's what makes it "niche."
I've been asking you over and over for decks. You have listed so much as a single card. I've clearly articulated why Aether Hub is a niche card using the decks that Tendo ice Bridge and Gemstone Mine see play in. What I still haven't received from you is so much as a single card. Aether Hub, to you, is a generic playable. Show me. Show me the decks where this is the go-to land. I've shown you literally hundreds of competitive Modern decks and dozens of competitive Legacy decks that have used fast lands. I have listed numerous Aether Hub decks that showcase why it's a niche card only shines when certain conditions are met. I want something more concrete from you that clearly showcases why Aether Hub isn't niche. Show me the decks where it sees generic play.
Madcap will definitely require a bit more thought. I'm thinking my old set of Long-terms plans with typical blue filter will be useful here. I'm in two minds as to whether I should use Platinum Emperion with no other artifacts, or a red/blue build focussing on blue filter, Madcap & ~12 fatties I can slap haste onto.
No matter which way I go, I think this is going to take a few different builds to learn what works and what doesn't.
I think Fumigate is better than you're suggesting.
It's no Wrath of God, but Wrath is a $5+ card, and compared to Day of Judgment, Fumigate is $$$ cheaper.
Generally Wrath/Fumigate is a card you're going to play in response to a poor board position, where you've probably been copping a beating, or there is something you have to deal with, so you're probably behind on life. This not only wipes the board, but will reset your life total in a lot of cases, and possibly combo's with perms like Rhox Faithmender, Sanguine Bond etc. Bear in mind Gary & Extort is a popular mechanic.
I don't think it's a bad card, just not quite as good as Wrath - which is possibly the best white sweeper in the game.
Dubious Challenge is not a card I will be pursuing, but with Homeward Path & Brooding Saurian, its not impossible to make something fun.
Shame the *hunted* cycle of creaures don't work here.
Sure, but it's not as though we're hurting for budget 5 CMC Wrath effects. There's what, like 8 or something? This one is better than most but not by a wide margin or anything. It hasn't exactly created new design space in that sense.
Moreover, Tragic Arrogance is inexpensive and significantly more competitive. Fumigate will only ever be run as a budget-alternative to a better card (barring dedicated lifegain archetypes) whereas Tragic Arrogance is a card that people actively choose to field in their place. I've seen plenty of White decks in my Cockatrice cEDH leagues with 0x ***/DoJ and 1x Tragic Arrogance.
W.r.t. diversity I don't give these kinds of substitutions much credence. I don't think that anyone cares if you field Wrath of God in one deck and End Hostilities in another "just to shake things up." Mass removal is mass removal.
By the way, Skyship Stalker seems pretty pushed to me. Or are creatures really that good these days?
It's fine but not something that I felt like discussing/analyzing. It's just another 4+ CMC creature that dies to removal at no benefit, that doesn't significantly advance your gameplan and that doesn't generate tangible value in the short-run. Don't get me wrong, I agree that (left unchecked) this card will kill people Inferno Titan style but it's not exactly a multiplayer-focused card. It's the kind of kind that speaks for itself (in my mind) and I don't have any interesting commentary to add. That is,I can't think of specific decks where it could shine, I don't expect to see it played in EDH, I won't be adding it to my Cube (nor would I expect others to), etc. You're bang-on that it's better than most Red 4 drops but it's no Purphoros, God of the Forge or anything.
My point is your argument is not rational. You listed the fetches, filters, shocks etc as cards you would play over aether hub. So I then listed the same cards as cards I would run over blooming marsh. Then you said well those are expensive. So I responded they were just as expensive when you listed them to support your argument. Now you are saying that tendo ice bridge never saw any play in legacy/vintage so its niche. That is just a completely preposterous thing to say as we both know that blooming marsh will never see any play in legacy/vintage. It won't see any play in modern either. That is a standard that 99.9% of cards can't meet including virtually every card in this set, many of which you gave fine grades. Yet those cards don't get niche reviews. You gave fumigate a C. Fumigate will NEVER be played in modern/legacy/vintage.
You don't like aether hub and that is fine. I still maintain that you underestimate it. I don't like blooming marsh and really can't envision ever running it in anything. Lets say I underestimate it. Clearly we aren't gonna agree. No point in either of us wasting more energy on this.
If you still equate "niche" with "weak" I encourage you to re-read my review for Dramatic Reversal. "Niche" cards are very good, the problem is simply that you can't blindly jam them into any old deck and expect to experience long-run success.
It's actually perfectly rational. The vast majority of MTG players can't afford $30.00+ cards and therefore need access to budget alternatives.
The word that you're looking for is "hypocritical." Being a hypocrite doesn't make me wrong. A fat doctor can tell you that you need to lose weight or else your health suffer in the long-run. Being fat himself doesn't make him wrong. People don't like taking advice from hypocrites (for obvious reasons) but the reality is that dismissing arguments simply because they originate from a hypocrite is a logical fallacy. An argument can still be valid even if it's coming from someone "who has no right to argue it." In that sense the only person making irrational arguments here is you because you're only dismissing my claims because they're hypocritical (which, again, is a logical fallacy). My argument is sound and rational, you just don't like the fact that it's coming from my mouth.
In tournament Vintage decks? Unlikely. For people who can't afford $12,000.00 lists? Yeah, they probably will.
Fast Lands have seen competitive Legacy play. It's completely reasonable to assume that Blooming March et al. could as well. Just look at Darkslick Shores in Legacy within the past 2-3 years: http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=darkslick shores&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
That's a non-zero amount of competitive play within recent memory.
FWIW I think you're confused as to what "competitive Vintage" et al means. You seem to be under the impression that I'm talking about duel tournament Magic. I'm not. This is a multiplayer set review and thread. "Competitive Vintage" means a Vintage B&R list and decks built with the goal of "winning." That's it. I don't assume that everyone can afford a perfect $12,000.00 Vintage deck because that's completely unrealistic. I have "competitive Vinatge decks" that don't have P9 and such because I can't afford them. My decks are still as optimized as I can afford to make them but I don't have 20 grand to blow on a hobby at this point in my life. In an ideal world I'd have all of the Moxen and such but I don't. That doesn't mean that I can't built a Vintage deck designed to win games of Magic. I can still go turn 1 Gemstone Caverns Waste Not into turn 2 Wheel of Fortune. Optimized builds with unlimited funds could certainly win more games but that's not reality for me and 99.999% of the playerbase. So when I say "Vinatge/Legacy" I'm not talking about a duel deck that you're bringing to a Bazaar of Moxen or anything. I'm talking about people building decks with certain restrictions while also acknowledging that "budget" is a serious concern for the vast majority of the playerbase.
Razorverge Thicket:
Modern:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Noformat&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=razorverge thicket&nomain=&side=&noside=
Legacy:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=Razorverge Thicket&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Vintage:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Vintage&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=Razorverge Thicket&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Blackcleave Cliffs:
Modern:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Noformat&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=blackcleave cliffs&nomain=&side=&noside=
Legacy:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=Blackcleave Cliffs&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Seachrome Coast:
Modern:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Noformat&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=seachrome coast&nomain=&side=&noside=
Legacy:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=Seachrome Coast&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Darkslick Shores:
Modern:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Noformat&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=darkslick shores&nomain=&side=&noside=
Legacy:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=Darkslick Shores&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Copperline Gorge:
Modern:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Noformat&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=copperline gorge&nomain=&side=&noside=
Legacy:
http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&pos1=on&pos2=on&pos34=on&pos58=on&pos916=on&main=Copperline Gorge&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on
Fast Lands see extensive competitive Modern play (still in 2016) and small amounts of competitive Legacy play (mostly pre-2015 but still some 2016) and a touch of competitive Vintage play.
I actually do like it. I'm going to be playing it as a 2-of in my Burgeoning + Summer Bloom deck. The card is amazing with Bouncelands and enables me to cast either Mystic Remora or Burgeoning on turn 1. it also helps me cast either Waste Not or Leovold, Emissary of Trest on turn 2-3 for a quick Windfall win. As such I'm personally going to playing it in some of my most competitive decks. These are literally turn 2-3 "I win the game" lists and they will include 1-2 copies of Aethub Hub. How am I dismissing it?
My argument isn't that it's bad. I'm arguing that it's niche in that it needs to be paired with blink/bounce effects. That's what makes it "niche."
I've been asking you over and over for decks. You have listed so much as a single card. I've clearly articulated why Aether Hub is a niche card using the decks that Tendo ice Bridge and Gemstone Mine see play in. What I still haven't received from you is so much as a single card. Aether Hub, to you, is a generic playable. Show me. Show me the decks where this is the go-to land. I've shown you literally hundreds of competitive Modern decks and dozens of competitive Legacy decks that have used fast lands. I have listed numerous Aether Hub decks that showcase why it's a niche card only shines when certain conditions are met. I want something more concrete from you that clearly showcases why Aether Hub isn't niche. Show me the decks where it sees generic play.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
This is significantly more concise (and equally accurate) way to explain it!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Kambal, Consul of Allocation & Madcap Experiment are the two I'm looking forward to playing with most.
Panharmonicon will be fun I'm sure too.
Kambal is a very easy fit, just like you suggest Prid3, I'll be jamming that into a deck with Bloodchief Ascension, Ankh of Mishra, Suture Priest, Blood Seeker, Gary, Massacre Wurm etc.
The deck practically builds itself, but for protection it will need some cards that dissuade attack like Wall of Souls, Vampire Nighthawk etc., but I did have the thought of perhaps building it into a BWG deck for Siege Rhino, dunno if I'll pursue that anytime soon. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed must be when kambal gets angry....
Madcap will definitely require a bit more thought. I'm thinking my old set of Long-terms plans with typical blue filter will be useful here. I'm in two minds as to whether I should use Platinum Emperion with no other artifacts, or a red/blue build focussing on blue filter, Madcap & ~12 fatties I can slap haste onto.
No matter which way I go, I think this is going to take a few different builds to learn what works and what doesn't.
I think Fumigate is better than you're suggesting.
It's no Wrath of God, but Wrath is a $5+ card, and compared to Day of Judgment, Fumigate is $$$ cheaper.
Generally Wrath/Fumigate is a card you're going to play in response to a poor board position, where you've probably been copping a beating, or there is something you have to deal with, so you're probably behind on life. This not only wipes the board, but will reset your life total in a lot of cases, and possibly combo's with perms like Rhox Faithmender, Sanguine Bond etc. Bear in mind Gary & Extort is a popular mechanic.
I don't think it's a bad card, just not quite as good as Wrath - which is possibly the best white sweeper in the game.
Dubious Challenge is not a card I will be pursuing, but with Homeward Path & Brooding Saurian, its not impossible to make something fun.
Shame the *hunted* cycle of creaures don't work here.
Sure, but it's not as though we're hurting for budget 5 CMC Wrath effects. There's what, like 8 or something? This one is better than most but not by a wide margin or anything. It hasn't exactly created new design space in that sense.
Moreover, Tragic Arrogance is inexpensive and significantly more competitive. Fumigate will only ever be run as a budget-alternative to a better card (barring dedicated lifegain archetypes) whereas Tragic Arrogance is a card that people actively choose to field in their place. I've seen plenty of White decks in my Cockatrice cEDH leagues with 0x ***/DoJ and 1x Tragic Arrogance.
W.r.t. diversity I don't give these kinds of substitutions much credence. I don't think that anyone cares if you field Wrath of God in one deck and End Hostilities in another "just to shake things up." Mass removal is mass removal.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
It drops earlier and potentially hits harder.
The other two do punch through more easy, that's true.
Oh well, we'll see. I ordered a playset and I'll find out how bad (ass) it is...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
It's fine but not something that I felt like discussing/analyzing. It's just another 4+ CMC creature that dies to removal at no benefit, that doesn't significantly advance your gameplan and that doesn't generate tangible value in the short-run. Don't get me wrong, I agree that (left unchecked) this card will kill people Inferno Titan style but it's not exactly a multiplayer-focused card. It's the kind of kind that speaks for itself (in my mind) and I don't have any interesting commentary to add. That is,I can't think of specific decks where it could shine, I don't expect to see it played in EDH, I won't be adding it to my Cube (nor would I expect others to), etc. You're bang-on that it's better than most Red 4 drops but it's no Purphoros, God of the Forge or anything.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold