Captured By the Consulate seems a lot better in a duel than multiplayer, and in either case situational. It's great against someone playing a dedicated Aura deck, okay against someone playing lots of spot removal, and just bad against anyone else- 4 mana is way too much to partially remove one creature in a world of Wrath of God, Swords to Plowshares, and Grasp of Fate.
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Then show us a competitive Midnight Oil deck. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, are you?
Rashmi, Eternities Crafter: Works suitably as a generic card advantage engine in any shell with UG in it. Becomes bonkers with untap effects/flash abuse.
Midnight Oil: A liability on its own. In an ideal world where you played it after a Reliquary Tower it begins to outperform Syphon Mind after 4-5 turns. Makes you doubly weak to wheel effects and opposing discard, turns off looting as a legitimate option, makes you lose your whole hand if someone casts Demolish on your Thought Vessel, and simply doesn't compete in raw power to other 4 CMC draw engines like Deathreap Ritual. I'm not seeing anything more than bulk bin fodder here.
No-one's mentioned Combustible Gearhulk yet? What. A. Card.
T1 Goblin Welder, any 0-1CC artifact (hi there, Sol Ring).
T2 discard the Gearhulk, somehow anyhow, Welder it into play on T2 for wreckage.
T3+ keep swapping it.
Wow.
Indeed not, but there aren't too many thing I'd play ahead of it. Sundering Titan and Mindslaver are less fun for your opponents, Myr Battlesphere and Wurmcoil Engine need an attack phase somewhere along the line. This thing is either going to burn out your opponent, or (more likely) pick your deck up for you (which is unheard of in mono red).
It also helps that all of the other combo pieces are going to fall into the budget category.
Then show us a competitive Midnight Oil deck. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, are you?
Depends on format, but I'd like a Midnight Oil deck that's Cat Pact based, and also had other drawback laced cards, such as Phyrexian Arena, especially since Midnight Oil with drop their max hand size. Maybe a few other red cards to also swap permanents, and Bazaar Trader to push after you use the Offering.
Again, though. What format?
Midnight Oil: A liability on its own. In an ideal world where you played it after a Reliquary Tower it begins to outperform Syphon Mind after 4-5 turns.
Just a side-note. You want to play the tower after so you get the timestamps in order.
Midnight Oil and Harmless Offering are both in Standard. I'm just going to give them a bunch of oil when it's used up.
It's not like there's any other 4cmc enchantment that draws cards and can be given to the opponent afterwards... *cough* Demonic Pact *cough*
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Depends on format, but I'd like a Midnight Oil deck that's Cat Pact based, and also had other drawback laced cards, such as Phyrexian Arena, especially since Midnight Oil with drop their max hand size. Maybe a few other red cards to also swap permanents, and Bazaar Trader to push after you use the Offering.
Again, though. What format?
The format is irrelevant. Cube, Constructed (Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, other), EDH, it makes no difference to me. I just want to see a reasonable multiplayer deck that actively wants unplayable trash like Midnight Oil.
The prospect of combo-ing it with Harmless Offering seems heinous to me. After all, it's a 2 card combo that merely annoys a single adversary. Would you ever choose to field that combo over the typical Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin alternatives that literally defeat any number of adversaries? Would anyone rather employ a combo that only annoys a single one? Because that doesn't make any sense to me.
Depends on format, but I'd like a Midnight Oil deck that's Cat Pact based, and also had other drawback laced cards, such as Phyrexian Arena, especially since Midnight Oil with drop their max hand size. Maybe a few other red cards to also swap permanents, and Bazaar Trader to push after you use the Offering.
Again, though. What format?
The format is irrelevant. Cube, Constructed (Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, other), EDH, it makes no difference to me. I just want to see a reasonable multiplayer deck that actively wants unplayable trash like Midnight Oil.
The prospect of combo-ing it with Harmless Offering seems heinous to me. After all, it's a 2 card combo that merely annoys a single adversary. Would you ever choose to field that combo over the typical Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin alternatives that literally defeat any number of adversaries? Would anyone rather employ a combo that only annoys a single one? Because that doesn't make any sense to me.
It's not like there's any other 4cmc enchantment that draws cards and can be given to the opponent afterwards... *cough* Demonic Pact *cough*
They won't be Standard legal together.
Again, depends on what you mean by competitive. My friends and I for instance won't play tournament level decks, typically, and if we play a deck that wins hands-down, we probably put it away for a while after. You're comparing this combo to those that have defined their format. It's like saying one combo is "strictly better" than it so it shouldn't be played. Diversify the meta, please.
A deck that's trying to win games of Magic. When people recommend jamming a 2 card combo that Donates a pain-free Phyrexian Arena to a single adversary I'm left scratching my head asking "why?" It's turns 5+, aren't they happy to be given a draw engine? After all, your opponent will draw a spell and a land every turn (on average, more-or-less) cast them and easily kill you because your 2-card combo is literally disadvantageous. Oh, sure, they might discard a few cards and take some damage every now and then but how is this game-winning value? They're just going to play their lands, cast their spells and play on from a strictly advantageous position. They're now drawing 2 cards per turn with the only catch being that they're forced to cast them at sorcery speed. Sorry, I don't see it.
From what I can tell the crux of your argument is that "bad cards are playable since they don't oppress the meta." Sure, that applies to every bad card in every set. Built to Last is perfectly playable if your only goal is to build a Standard-legal 60 card deck that doesn't make anyone feel bad. What I don't don't understand is what you're trying to prove. Everyone knows that you can purposely field weaker alternatives to artificially deflate your overall win %. That's obvious. I want to hear why people are lauding cards in the context of players actively trying to win games of Magic. I don't care if it's not the fastest, most degenerate deck of all time but I want to know a big part of your motivation is to field powerful cards and synergies that will win games. The argument "this card is relevant because it's perfect for players trying to lose more games" isn't remotely interesting nor worth discussing because it's both obvious and it applies to every bad card in the game. If you want to play with bad cards, that's fine, but you shouldn't argue "can't you see that this card is good because it's so much weaker than the alternatives?" as a result of your desire to lose more games. You're not arguing for the bad cards at that point. Rather, you're arguing against the strong ones. My take-away from that statement is "don't play Splinter Twin because it's too good" and not "play Midnight Oil because it's a relevant combo card." The first statement is rational, relevant, worth discussing, etc. The second one is nonsensical.
Something to note on Saheeli Rai, since it wasn't mentioned elsewhere here: while her -2 is the ability you mostly glossed over in your initial read of her, it's the one capable of forming an infinite combo right off the bat. Target her with Liquimetal Coating (or have a Mycosynth Lattice in play), and she becomes a target for her own -2. This makes an artifact token of her - sac the original. The new token can then target itself. Repeat for infinite artifacts entering the battlefield and dying, which can trigger stuff like Disciple of the Vault, Altar of the Brood, or Reckless Fireweaver infinite times.
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A deck that's trying to win games of Magic. When people recommend jamming a 2 card combo that Donates a pain-free Phyrexian Arena to a single adversary I'm left scratching my head asking "why?" It's turns 5+, aren't they happy to be given a draw engine? After all, your opponent will draw a spell and a land every turn (on average, more-or-less) cast them and easily kill you because your 2-card combo is literally disadvantageous. Oh, sure, they might discard a few cards and take some damage every now and then but how is this game-winning value? They're just going to play their lands, cast their spells and play on from a strictly advantageous position. They're now drawing 2 cards per turn with the only catch being that they're forced to cast them at sorcery speed. Sorry, I don't see it.
From what I can tell the crux of your argument is that "bad cards are playable since they don't oppress the meta." Sure, that applies to every bad card in every set. Built to Last is perfectly playable if your only goal is to build a Standard-legal 60 card deck that doesn't make anyone feel bad. What I don't don't understand is what you're trying to prove. Everyone knows that you can purposely field weaker alternatives to artificially deflate your overall win %. That's obvious. I want to hear why people are lauding cards in the context of players actively trying to win games of Magic. I don't care if it's not the fastest, most degenerate deck of all time but I want to know a big part of your motivation is to field powerful cards and synergies that will win games. The argument "this card is relevant because it's perfect for players trying to lose more games" isn't remotely interesting nor worth discussing because it's both obvious and it applies to every bad card in the game. If you want to play with bad cards, that's fine, but you shouldn't argue "can't you see that this card is good because it's so much weaker than the alternatives?" as a result of your desire to lose more games. You're not arguing for the bad cards at that point. Rather, you're arguing against the strong ones. My take-away from that statement is "don't play Splinter Twin because it's too good" and not "play Midnight Oil because it's a relevant combo card." The first statement is rational, relevant, worth discussing, etc. The second one is nonsensical.
I'd like a Midnight Oil in my Nekusar deck. Perhaps with a Waste Not since they'll likely be discarding. Or I could go a white/black route and limit them to 1 spell per turn, though they could still lay lands. And I also look forward to using Built to Last in my Esper deck.
You're missing the point entirely. What happens if you don't Console a Shivan Dragon then someone slams a Consecrated Sphinx? You get eaten by a dragon.
I mean I'm the person telling people to play things like Swords to Plowshares, Grasp of Fate and Wrath of God as their removal spells. I'm not telling them to cut all of their or anything, just what removal they should be playing instead.
I'm not planning to dismiss your ideas or one-up you or post better decks if that's what you're worried about. This card, to me, is unplayable trash. I'm not saying that simply because you like it, I didn't even review it because I thought that it was terrible right from the get-go. I'm a self-proclaimed Black Mage, monoblack is my favorite deck by an order of magnitude, but I couldn't envision a world where I'd ever field this. That being said you clearly disagree and I just want to get a sense of why you think that this card is good. I don't care if it can't compete with stock Legacy/Vintage builds or any BS like that. I just want someone to show me a sample deck (or even grouping of cards) that includes Midnight Oil. Again, my arguments against the card are that it's very slow, the drawback is significant (that's my take on it given the decks that I personally play) and there's plenty of reasonable alternatives that I'd rather employ. Even if it's not strictly better than Underworld Connections (insert any alternative here) I don't want to be forced to cast all of my removal and such every turn. I want to have control over my spells and not be forced to jam them at the pace that Midnight Oil dictates.
I don't see why discussion about those has to be discouraged. The biggest mistakes I make when evaluating new cards is assuming that they are never going to be as good as the staple alternatives. If <new card> outperforms <good card> in <specific situations>, it deserves mention. Let's at least try to uncover that potential before we condemn something as "bad".
Here's where my frustrations stem from:
Cz: Card X is bad because [reasons].
Xyx: I think that card X is good.
Cz: Can you show me an example of a deck where card X would be good?
Xyx: Why dismiss my points of view?
(this is a general frustration of mine as a set reviewer, I'm not trying to single you out)
I agree that discussion has merits. I agree that many people (myself included) can be overly-dismissive of new cards. Perfect example: Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I gave the card a middling review (I think) because I compared it to Ogre Slumlord in my head. Not a carbon copy but "close enough." Turns out Kalitas is great, but I had to actually play him in a deck with cards like Toxic Deluge and Massacre. The first time that I jammed Kalitas + Massacre on turn 4 and untapped with 20 power I knew that he was a bomb and that I was completely wrong about him. My problem is that far more often than not we get nothing to work with. How am I supposed to change my point of view on Midnight Oil if I don't have anything tangible to work with? I have no incentive to brew with a card that I think is terrible just to prove myself wrong. It's a waste of my time and energy since I'd rather brew with cards that I think have potential. This is why I always ask for sample decks or even groups of cards. I don't care about perfect manabases or fully-fleshed 60 card lists, I just want a ball-park list to work with so that I can see a practical real-world scenario where the card might have value. I'm all for discussions but it would nice if every now and then people would offer practical examples of where the card could see play.
Get your story straight. Which is it? "Unplayable trash" or "pain-free Phyrexian Arena"?
In that specific context it's both. Assembling a 2-card combo to Donate a Phyrexian Arena to a single adversary is unplayable trash in any multiplayer sphere and in the context of Standard most decks will have emptied their hand by turn 5-6 or so at which point Midnight Oil becomes insane for the person that you're giving it to. I stand by what I said 100%.
Alas, the new token copy is not an artifact. A copy is basically what you get when you put the card on a copy machine.
Quote from Saheeli Rai"s -2 »
Create a token that's a copy of target artifact or creature you control, except it's an artifact in addition to its other types. That token gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step.
Bolded for emphasis.
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Sure, but she won't see competitive Modern play in that archetype or anything though. The reason why I didn't touch on that combo myself is because it needs 3 cards and none of them are relevant as stand-alone spells. It's no different than the Pili-Pala + Grand Architect + mana sink combo in that sense. I've seen that deck played once or twice in Modern but it's not a mainstay or anything. It technically works but the deck itself isn't cohesive enough to be competitive. That's why I personally focused on her "Obliterate into ultimate" play pattern because that seems like her most practical multiplayer application to me. Turn 2-3 Saheeli into turn 3-4 "Jokulhaups" only requires Saheeli and any mass removal spell (there's like 8 total) and it doesn't force you to play with weak/marginal cards. After all, "Wildfire" are objectively amazing in multiplayer and so are cards such as Sensei's Divining Top and Basalt Monolith.
What do you guys think saheeli Rai will go for? I want her for a stupid Scry deck I have that wins with flamespeaker adept. I don't want to spend a lot of money though since it is just a stupid scry deck that wind with flamespeaker adept. Think she will settle for a reasonable price or should I give up hope now?
(her peroder amount is a little over $13 fyi)
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Midnight Oil really is bad. There are lots of permanents that draw you one extra card per turn and most of them have a lesser drawback. Phyrexian Arena, Deathreap Ritual, Graveborn Muse, Outpost Siege, Rhystic Study, Shadowmage Infiltrator, Underworld Connections etc. all give you continuous card advantage without forcing you to play hellbent after a few turns.
Just jam the deck full of Reliquary Towers and Thought Vessels and conquer that timestamp
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Rashmi, Eternities Crafter: Works suitably as a generic card advantage engine in any shell with UG in it. Becomes bonkers with untap effects/flash abuse.
Midnight Oil: A liability on its own. In an ideal world where you played it after a Reliquary Tower it begins to outperform Syphon Mind after 4-5 turns. Makes you doubly weak to wheel effects and opposing discard, turns off looting as a legitimate option, makes you lose your whole hand if someone casts Demolish on your Thought Vessel, and simply doesn't compete in raw power to other 4 CMC draw engines like Deathreap Ritual. I'm not seeing anything more than bulk bin fodder here.
Indeed not, but there aren't too many thing I'd play ahead of it. Sundering Titan and Mindslaver are less fun for your opponents, Myr Battlesphere and Wurmcoil Engine need an attack phase somewhere along the line. This thing is either going to burn out your opponent, or (more likely) pick your deck up for you (which is unheard of in mono red).
It also helps that all of the other combo pieces are going to fall into the budget category.
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Depends on format, but I'd like a Midnight Oil deck that's Cat Pact based, and also had other drawback laced cards, such as Phyrexian Arena, especially since Midnight Oil with drop their max hand size. Maybe a few other red cards to also swap permanents, and Bazaar Trader to push after you use the Offering.
Again, though. What format?
Just a side-note. You want to play the tower after so you get the timestamps in order.
It's not like there's any other 4cmc enchantment that draws cards and can be given to the opponent afterwards... *cough* Demonic Pact *cough*
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The format is irrelevant. Cube, Constructed (Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, other), EDH, it makes no difference to me. I just want to see a reasonable multiplayer deck that actively wants unplayable trash like Midnight Oil.
The prospect of combo-ing it with Harmless Offering seems heinous to me. After all, it's a 2 card combo that merely annoys a single adversary. Would you ever choose to field that combo over the typical Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin alternatives that literally defeat any number of adversaries? Would anyone rather employ a combo that only annoys a single one? Because that doesn't make any sense to me.
They won't be Standard legal together.
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Fumigate I like. I surprised it's at 5cmc....
Self-Assembler - I'm not sure what to make of this one. So it looks for itself, anything else that matters?
Again, depends on what you mean by competitive. My friends and I for instance won't play tournament level decks, typically, and if we play a deck that wins hands-down, we probably put it away for a while after. You're comparing this combo to those that have defined their format. It's like saying one combo is "strictly better" than it so it shouldn't be played. Diversify the meta, please.
A deck that's trying to win games of Magic. When people recommend jamming a 2 card combo that Donates a pain-free Phyrexian Arena to a single adversary I'm left scratching my head asking "why?" It's turns 5+, aren't they happy to be given a draw engine? After all, your opponent will draw a spell and a land every turn (on average, more-or-less) cast them and easily kill you because your 2-card combo is literally disadvantageous. Oh, sure, they might discard a few cards and take some damage every now and then but how is this game-winning value? They're just going to play their lands, cast their spells and play on from a strictly advantageous position. They're now drawing 2 cards per turn with the only catch being that they're forced to cast them at sorcery speed. Sorry, I don't see it.
From what I can tell the crux of your argument is that "bad cards are playable since they don't oppress the meta." Sure, that applies to every bad card in every set. Built to Last is perfectly playable if your only goal is to build a Standard-legal 60 card deck that doesn't make anyone feel bad. What I don't don't understand is what you're trying to prove. Everyone knows that you can purposely field weaker alternatives to artificially deflate your overall win %. That's obvious. I want to hear why people are lauding cards in the context of players actively trying to win games of Magic. I don't care if it's not the fastest, most degenerate deck of all time but I want to know a big part of your motivation is to field powerful cards and synergies that will win games. The argument "this card is relevant because it's perfect for players trying to lose more games" isn't remotely interesting nor worth discussing because it's both obvious and it applies to every bad card in the game. If you want to play with bad cards, that's fine, but you shouldn't argue "can't you see that this card is good because it's so much weaker than the alternatives?" as a result of your desire to lose more games. You're not arguing for the bad cards at that point. Rather, you're arguing against the strong ones. My take-away from that statement is "don't play Splinter Twin because it's too good" and not "play Midnight Oil because it's a relevant combo card." The first statement is rational, relevant, worth discussing, etc. The second one is nonsensical.
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I'd like a Midnight Oil in my Nekusar deck. Perhaps with a Waste Not since they'll likely be discarding. Or I could go a white/black route and limit them to 1 spell per turn, though they could still lay lands. And I also look forward to using Built to Last in my Esper deck.
Spireside Infiltrator & Night Market Lookout look alright - plenty of ways to abuse these, like Springleaf Drum & Paradise Mantle for starters.
Gearseeker Serpent will be easy to cheat in, and Whelming Wave works with it.
Fateful Showdown is interesting - a mix of rummage & removal, fuels Pyromancer Ascension. Would be hilarious with Enter the Infinite in a duel ha ha
Fairgrounds Trumpeter looks good - easy addition for Forgotten Ancient / Taurean Mauler type decks I would think.
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Sounds like it's Obstinate Familiar's time to shine Kappa.
No, but seriously, there's a reason why everyone uses Laboratory Maniac/Beacon of Tomorrows :P.
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I mean I'm the person telling people to play things like Swords to Plowshares, Grasp of Fate and Wrath of God as their removal spells. I'm not telling them to cut all of their or anything, just what removal they should be playing instead.
I'm not planning to dismiss your ideas or one-up you or post better decks if that's what you're worried about. This card, to me, is unplayable trash. I'm not saying that simply because you like it, I didn't even review it because I thought that it was terrible right from the get-go. I'm a self-proclaimed Black Mage, monoblack is my favorite deck by an order of magnitude, but I couldn't envision a world where I'd ever field this. That being said you clearly disagree and I just want to get a sense of why you think that this card is good. I don't care if it can't compete with stock Legacy/Vintage builds or any BS like that. I just want someone to show me a sample deck (or even grouping of cards) that includes Midnight Oil. Again, my arguments against the card are that it's very slow, the drawback is significant (that's my take on it given the decks that I personally play) and there's plenty of reasonable alternatives that I'd rather employ. Even if it's not strictly better than Underworld Connections (insert any alternative here) I don't want to be forced to cast all of my removal and such every turn. I want to have control over my spells and not be forced to jam them at the pace that Midnight Oil dictates.
Here's where my frustrations stem from:
Cz: Card X is bad because [reasons].
Xyx: I think that card X is good.
Cz: Can you show me an example of a deck where card X would be good?
Xyx: Why dismiss my points of view?
(this is a general frustration of mine as a set reviewer, I'm not trying to single you out)
I agree that discussion has merits. I agree that many people (myself included) can be overly-dismissive of new cards. Perfect example: Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I gave the card a middling review (I think) because I compared it to Ogre Slumlord in my head. Not a carbon copy but "close enough." Turns out Kalitas is great, but I had to actually play him in a deck with cards like Toxic Deluge and Massacre. The first time that I jammed Kalitas + Massacre on turn 4 and untapped with 20 power I knew that he was a bomb and that I was completely wrong about him. My problem is that far more often than not we get nothing to work with. How am I supposed to change my point of view on Midnight Oil if I don't have anything tangible to work with? I have no incentive to brew with a card that I think is terrible just to prove myself wrong. It's a waste of my time and energy since I'd rather brew with cards that I think have potential. This is why I always ask for sample decks or even groups of cards. I don't care about perfect manabases or fully-fleshed 60 card lists, I just want a ball-park list to work with so that I can see a practical real-world scenario where the card might have value. I'm all for discussions but it would nice if every now and then people would offer practical examples of where the card could see play.
Still here, still encouraging people to play with cards like Underworld Connections, Syphon Mind, Graveborn Muse, Corpse Augur, Necrologia, etc.
In that specific context it's both. Assembling a 2-card combo to Donate a Phyrexian Arena to a single adversary is unplayable trash in any multiplayer sphere and in the context of Standard most decks will have emptied their hand by turn 5-6 or so at which point Midnight Oil becomes insane for the person that you're giving it to. I stand by what I said 100%.
I would unquestionably be more interested in it.
Lots of people made this mistake but re-read Saheeli's -2. It turns the card into an Artifact (God knows why) so this does work.
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Sure, but she won't see competitive Modern play in that archetype or anything though. The reason why I didn't touch on that combo myself is because it needs 3 cards and none of them are relevant as stand-alone spells. It's no different than the Pili-Pala + Grand Architect + mana sink combo in that sense. I've seen that deck played once or twice in Modern but it's not a mainstay or anything. It technically works but the deck itself isn't cohesive enough to be competitive. That's why I personally focused on her "Obliterate into ultimate" play pattern because that seems like her most practical multiplayer application to me. Turn 2-3 Saheeli into turn 3-4 "Jokulhaups" only requires Saheeli and any mass removal spell (there's like 8 total) and it doesn't force you to play with weak/marginal cards. After all, "Wildfire" are objectively amazing in multiplayer and so are cards such as Sensei's Divining Top and Basalt Monolith.
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Stick on Isochron Scepter for no fun.
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Yep, add some mana rocks and you've gone infinite.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Grim Monolith, Basalt Monolith with the option of powering your spells out a turn earlier using cards like Gemstone Caverns, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox and possibly even Mox Opal depending on the build. Turn 2-3 Saheeli into a mana rock into a Wildfire/Destructive Force/Devastation should be good enough to seal the deal more often than not and even if you don't draw one you still have Daretti, Scrap Savant as a fall-back option. He too is insane in the archetype after all.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
(her peroder amount is a little over $13 fyi)