So I bought a set of this little fella, blindly chucked one into my goblin deck, and I've been left wondering what to do with the rest.
He works rather well with SCRY and whatever effects/cards place stuff on the bottom of your library, of which we have stacks to choose from.
I would love to make a deck that actually cares about this stuff, but so far I can't see a genuine reason to bother given the restrictions, and the obvious that Grenzo is a creature. Grenzo cares about POWER stated on the creature card, so anything with */* or power from 2 down is fine. So whilst genuine good cards like Taurean Mauler & Nighthowler work, we don't have to cheat those guys into play.
Where I see the use of this card is big stuff like Bedlam Reveler, Darksteel Gargoyle, Djinn Illuminatus, Gigantomancer, Ignition Team, Sutured Ghoul etc.
Grenzo is a pretty weak way to cheat stuff into play compared to other options, and he's a legend. Boo. But his effect is repeatable, which is a massive plus.
The MAIN thing I'm asking the brains trust;
Are there anymore cards out there like Grenzo, that can manipulate the bottom of the library?
And if you were going to use this card, how would you do it (outide of a typical Goblin deck)?
Junktroller can repeatedly put creatures from your GY on the bottom of your library. If you're willing to go up to 3 colors then Mistveil Plains does a similar job. It also has the "Plains" land type which is relevant if you have fetch lands.
One idea with this engine would be to recur a creature like Fleshbag Marauder for keeping your opponents boards clear.
The MAIN thing I'm asking the brains trust;
Are there anymore cards out there like Grenzo, that can manipulate the bottom of the library?
And if you were going to use this card, how would you do it (outide of a typical Goblin deck)?
Doomsday. Just put Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and either Pestermite or Zealous Conscripts on the bottom of your lib. You can even "defend" the combo with cards like Spellskite assuming that you have enough mana. This clearly isn't the only way to bin cards but it's the only competitive way.
Done a heap of testing with different cards and I'm running out of reasons to pursue Grenzo as a build-around. It puts too many limits on ...
Support card it seems okay.
I had great fun with Grenzo in a five color good-stuff deck running Deadbridge Chant as well...
Other "play / draw from graveyard" will work too. (Feldon or reanimate cards when you play Grenzo with X = 0)
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Below is the deck build I have that features Grenzo. This is part of a star-format set of decks I'm testing, but I haven't been able to test this one yet. It might not be exactly what you're after, but it seems solid on paper. Hope it helps!
Nighthowler is fine, though, since it's a base 0/0. Sutured Ghoul is also fine since you haven't exiled any cards yet while it's still in your library.
Oh right, I totally forgot bout that. You're dead right. Thanks.
There's still plenty of ways forward here, I'm not giving up.
The deck is getting there. Trouble is, Grenzo needs a high creature count to work, I keep changing my mind over what colour to splash, and this deck needs speed to beat the mid-range decks that spew value out from turn 4 onwards.
I'm not sure R/B is enough. I'm looking at blue for cards like Mulldrifter, Augury Owl, Lim-Duls Vault etc., but an awful lot of 2P/XT creatures, and small-CMC spells (outside R/B) are green, like Seek the Wilds. White/Green has some very good toys for Grenzo, like Crown of Convergence, but that's getting too cute.
Trouble is, Grenzo needs a high creature count to work, I keep changing my mind over what colour to splash, and this deck needs speed to beat the mid-range decks that spew value out from turn 4 onwards.
1. It's not a "trouble" that he necessitates a high creature density. Cards with high payoffs should require some form of commitment.
2. The colors that you splash are irrelevant. What matters is your ability to support said splashes.
3. The deck will never be fast. If you're trying to go "under" the table then you're never going to experience long-term success. Grenzo is inherently a slow, grindy, value-driven card that thrives in mana-heavy environments.
I'm not sure R/B is enough. I'm looking at blue for cards like Mulldrifter, Augury Owl, Lim-Duls Vault etc., but an awful lot of 2P/XT creatures, and small-CMC spells (outside R/B) are green, like Seek the Wilds. White/Green has some very good toys for Grenzo, like Crown of Convergence, but that's getting too cute.
You need to stop focusing on marginal value and start focusing on a plan to win games of Magic. Jamming a ton of Solemn Simulacrums and Mulldrifters makes sense in duels where you only need to deal 20 damage in order to win but those kinds of cards don't accomplish squat in MP. Stop trying to beat removal and start thinking about groups of cards that will enable you to beat multiple adversaries.
Anyways;
I have been looking at trying to find ways to take down the whole table, and quite a few different ways too.
I don't own Imperial Recruiter, and doubt I ever will, but it screams to be in here.
The strongest variant I'm toying with is a clunky one (just to give you an idea of how silly some of the idea's I'm playing with)
A spell/perm to get Gary, F-bag, SGC, Doop or other MP staples on the library bottom. Grenzo, Dungeon Warden activation = Hello Boys, everyone collectively sighs and dedicates a wank in my direction. Ashnod's AltarBoy, tap Junktroller to repeat Grenzo or Animate Dead select Boy.
Animate Dead for grabbing Grenzo again too if needed.
An alternative here to Altar & Junktroller, is Tel-Jilad Stylus, which makes the curve easier but will also force the deck to include a lot more removal.
Other creatures outside the norm & Tutor are Master of Cruelties, Trisky, Moon & Z-Cons.
Another silly build idea was around stuff like Teferi's Puzzle Box combined with Underworld Dreams to get stuff on the bottom of the library.
Don't like it.
Another build, which I'm not loving, is a MP-mill deck focussed on milling everybody.
Perm/spell based mill like Mesmeric Orb/Wheel of Fate, reanimate spells to grab what I want.
Grenzo to cheat in Nighthowler, Nemesis of Reason & Guiltfeeder amongst others.
So far all the creatures/builds I've been toying with are either quite fair and *okay* decks, without being strong.
I'd really like to be able to use Flayer of the Hatebound & Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with Grenzo, but in the times I've played with Grenzo already, I've found casting with a large enough X to support them means it gets removed before I can cheat anything into play.
I don't understand why you guys are focusing on Enchantment-based recursion in a Grenzo deck. Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, Feldon of the Third Path, Balthor the Defiled, why not one of many creatures that does the same thing? Moreover, why get fancy with things like Tel-Jilad Stylus that don't have any inherent value? What do they even do? If you have a Grenzo in play, and creatures, and someone kills your others creatures, but not Grenzo, with spot removal, then you can use your wasted draw step to generate some value? Why?
Like, these are what Grenzo decks should look like assuming that you're not building around Doomsday:
.... why get fancy with things like Tel-Jilad Stylus that don't have any inherent value?
I was looking at that guy mainly for repeated Grenzo activations.
E.G. Mana Echoes combined with a swag of token dropping creatures like SGC, Beetleback Chief, Goblin Marshal etc., will enable Grenzo to just spew out creatures quickly. The Stylus is just repetition, to keep dropping more tokens.
One of the versions I've been playing with is with 4 Echoes.
Obviously being able to repeat Gary, removal like Fleshbag Marauder & Duplicant, is pretty useful too.
I get where you're coming from, but that's the reason.
Other cards I looked at using with Grenzo, as fuel for his activation are Braid of Fire & Thran Turbine.
I was looking at that guy mainly for repeated Grenzo activations.
E.G. Mana Echoes combined with a swag of token dropping creatures like SGC, Beetleback Chief, Goblin Marshal etc., will enable Grenzo to just spew out creatures quickly. The Stylus is just repetition, to keep dropping more tokens.
Other cards I looked at using with Grenzo, as fuel for his activation are Braid of Fire & Thran Turbine.
What do any of these cards do if people kill Grenzo or if you fail to draw one? What do any of those cards do if Grenzo hits them with an activation? You're trying too hard to cheat on a 2 CMC activation that doesn't effect noncreature spells.
So I bought a set of this little fella, blindly chucked one into my goblin deck, and I've been left wondering what to do with the rest.
He works rather well with SCRY and whatever effects/cards place stuff on the bottom of your library, of which we have stacks to choose from.
I would love to make a deck that actually cares about this stuff, but so far I can't see a genuine reason to bother given the restrictions, and the obvious that Grenzo is a creature. Grenzo cares about POWER stated on the creature card, so anything with */* or power from 2 down is fine. So whilst genuine good cards like Taurean Mauler & Nighthowler work, we don't have to cheat those guys into play.
Where I see the use of this card is big stuff like Bedlam Reveler, Darksteel Gargoyle, Djinn Illuminatus, Gigantomancer, Ignition Team, Sutured Ghoul etc.
Grenzo is a pretty weak way to cheat stuff into play compared to other options, and he's a legend. Boo. But his effect is repeatable, which is a massive plus.
The MAIN thing I'm asking the brains trust;
Are there anymore cards out there like Grenzo, that can manipulate the bottom of the library?
And if you were going to use this card, how would you do it (outide of a typical Goblin deck)?
Cheers
One idea with this engine would be to recur a creature like Fleshbag Marauder for keeping your opponents boards clear.
Doomsday. Just put Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and either Pestermite or Zealous Conscripts on the bottom of your lib. You can even "defend" the combo with cards like Spellskite assuming that you have enough mana. This clearly isn't the only way to bin cards but it's the only competitive way.
Otherwise if you want a fair deck I recommend things like Oversold Cemetery, Buried Alive, Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, etc.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Support card it seems okay.
Other "play / draw from graveyard" will work too. (Feldon or reanimate cards when you play Grenzo with X = 0)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
2x Abyssal Gatekeeper
4x Wight of Precinct Six
3x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
3x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Nighthowler
1x Liliana, Heretical Healer
2x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
2x Prophetic Flamespeaker
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Nekrataal
1x Balthor the Defiled
1x Master of Cruelties
1x Sire of Insanity
Spells (12)
2x Basilisk Collar
1x Shadows of the Past
2x Pyroclasm
2x Breath of Darigaaz
3x Terminate
2x Syphon Mind
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Rakdos Carnarium
4x Akoum Refuge
6x Mountain
6x Swamp
Archenemy: Nicol Bolas Upgrades
Oh right, I totally forgot bout that. You're dead right. Thanks.
There's still plenty of ways forward here, I'm not giving up.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I'm not sure R/B is enough. I'm looking at blue for cards like Mulldrifter, Augury Owl, Lim-Duls Vault etc., but an awful lot of 2P/XT creatures, and small-CMC spells (outside R/B) are green, like Seek the Wilds. White/Green has some very good toys for Grenzo, like Crown of Convergence, but that's getting too cute.
1. It's not a "trouble" that he necessitates a high creature density. Cards with high payoffs should require some form of commitment.
2. The colors that you splash are irrelevant. What matters is your ability to support said splashes.
3. The deck will never be fast. If you're trying to go "under" the table then you're never going to experience long-term success. Grenzo is inherently a slow, grindy, value-driven card that thrives in mana-heavy environments.
You need to stop focusing on marginal value and start focusing on a plan to win games of Magic. Jamming a ton of Solemn Simulacrums and Mulldrifters makes sense in duels where you only need to deal 20 damage in order to win but those kinds of cards don't accomplish squat in MP. Stop trying to beat removal and start thinking about groups of cards that will enable you to beat multiple adversaries.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Anyways;
I have been looking at trying to find ways to take down the whole table, and quite a few different ways too.
I don't own Imperial Recruiter, and doubt I ever will, but it screams to be in here.
The strongest variant I'm toying with is a clunky one (just to give you an idea of how silly some of the idea's I'm playing with)
A spell/perm to get Gary, F-bag, SGC, Doop or other MP staples on the library bottom.
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden activation = Hello Boys, everyone collectively sighs and dedicates a wank in my direction.
Ashnod's Altar Boy, tap Junktroller to repeat Grenzo or Animate Dead select Boy.
Animate Dead for grabbing Grenzo again too if needed.
An alternative here to Altar & Junktroller, is Tel-Jilad Stylus, which makes the curve easier but will also force the deck to include a lot more removal.
Other creatures outside the norm & Tutor are Master of Cruelties, Trisky, Moon & Z-Cons.
Another silly build idea was around stuff like Teferi's Puzzle Box combined with Underworld Dreams to get stuff on the bottom of the library.
Don't like it.
Another build, which I'm not loving, is a MP-mill deck focussed on milling everybody.
Perm/spell based mill like Mesmeric Orb/Wheel of Fate, reanimate spells to grab what I want.
Grenzo to cheat in Nighthowler, Nemesis of Reason & Guiltfeeder amongst others.
So far all the creatures/builds I've been toying with are either quite fair and *okay* decks, without being strong.
I'd really like to be able to use Flayer of the Hatebound & Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with Grenzo, but in the times I've played with Grenzo already, I've found casting with a large enough X to support them means it gets removed before I can cheat anything into play.
What do you mean?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I don't understand why you guys are focusing on Enchantment-based recursion in a Grenzo deck. Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, Feldon of the Third Path, Balthor the Defiled, why not one of many creatures that does the same thing? Moreover, why get fancy with things like Tel-Jilad Stylus that don't have any inherent value? What do they even do? If you have a Grenzo in play, and creatures, and someone kills your others creatures, but not Grenzo, with spot removal, then you can use your wasted draw step to generate some value? Why?
Like, these are what Grenzo decks should look like assuming that you're not building around Doomsday:
24x Land
Creatures (30)
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
4x Goblin Matron
4x Mad Auntie
1x Goblin Warchief
1x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Krenko, Mob Boss
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
4x Siege-Gang Commander
6x Game Win
"Game Win" could be Shared Animosity, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Eldrazi Monument, Patriarch's Bidding, anything.
24x Land
Creatures (28)
4x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
4x Viridian Emissary
3x Reassembling Skeleton
1x Tymaret, the Murder King
4x Ophiomancer
1x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Goblin Matron
4x Braids, Cabal Minion
1x Balthor the Defiled
2x Shattergang Brothers
2x Sadistic Hypnotist
3x Rancor
1x Oversold Cemetery
2x Contamination
2x Smokestack
Grenzo is great in Stax since he enables you to cheat on your mana costs and fuels your oppressive engines with ease.
22x Swamp
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Creatures (28)
4x Thrull Parasite
4x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
2x Basilica Screecher
2x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Urborg Syphon-Mage
4x Crypt Ghast
2x Balthor the Defiled
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Pontiff of Blight
4x Underworld Connections
2x Fire Covenant
2x Snuff Out
You can field more removal if you want. Fire Covenant is bonkers in decks with massive amounts of lifegain for fairly obvious reasons.
24x Land
Creatures (32)
4x Viscera Seer
4x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Zulaport Cutthroat
4x Hanweir Garrison
4x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Sengir Autocrat
1x Balthor the Defiled
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Ogre Battledriver
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Sadistic Hypnotist
4x Living Death
Feel free to add things like Impact Tremors and/or add Green for Shamanic Revelation, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Avenger of Zendikar and/or Decimator of the Provinces.
Obviously you can just build a generic value deck too but the card seems fairly straight-forward to me.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
But if you're going to the trouble of binning stuff, there are far better ways to make use of it.
I was looking at that guy mainly for repeated Grenzo activations.
E.G. Mana Echoes combined with a swag of token dropping creatures like SGC, Beetleback Chief, Goblin Marshal etc., will enable Grenzo to just spew out creatures quickly. The Stylus is just repetition, to keep dropping more tokens.
One of the versions I've been playing with is with 4 Echoes.
Obviously being able to repeat Gary, removal like Fleshbag Marauder & Duplicant, is pretty useful too.
I get where you're coming from, but that's the reason.
Other cards I looked at using with Grenzo, as fuel for his activation are Braid of Fire & Thran Turbine.
Here's where I'm at currently for a RB version;
22-24 Lands, Howltooth Hollow, Spinerock Knoll, Sulfurous Springs, Temple of Malice
4x Tel-Jilad Stylus
4x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
2x Goblin Matron
2x Junktroller
4x Merciless Executioner
2x Duplicant
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Anger
1x Beetleback Chief
2x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Balthor the Defiled
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
I also played around with a Goblin loose-tribal idea, given Goblin Ringleader works for Grenzo with non-goblins.
I don't think I've given any single card this much time before....
What do any of these cards do if people kill Grenzo or if you fail to draw one? What do any of those cards do if Grenzo hits them with an activation? You're trying too hard to cheat on a 2 CMC activation that doesn't effect noncreature spells.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold