Dude, this is amazing. Thank you for suggesting this! I've actually never built a deck in that style before... I'm gonna try to pick up some pieces next time I'm at the game shop.
My favorite card in the game is Etched Oracle because the art is so beautiful and because I feel that the effect is very unique. That said, he is difficult to build around!
If you're interested, we built a deck around Suncrusher in a GMAD a while back that happened to play 4 copies:
(Ignore the votes in parenthesis, this was the final product.)
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Yes. The Denizen is unplayable.
That's why I keep trying.
The Ooze is nice. Quicksilver Elemental too.
Haste and sacrifice effects help.
As do animating stuff from other graveyards.
But a really good deck that wins by (ab)using Infernal Denizen is probably impossible.
But soon I'll build my eighteenth version of it.
(65th if you count tweaks)
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My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
It goes without saying that both Rogue's Passage and Slayers' Stronghold pair amazingly well with Norin. He's easily among the most degenerate aggressive threats in the game and can routinely swing for throngs of damage. He's also a fantastic Angelic Destiny target since he's so resilient to removal which prevents any sort of blow-out. Otherwise you'll frequently want to declare him as a blocker and cast spells before damage resolves to blink him out. There's many more tricks where that came from so if you want learn more just give me a shout.
I really don't understand that norin thing. If you declare him as attacker he gets exiled and doesn't attack and if you angelic destiny on him he gets exiled too. I don't get it when you say he swings for throngs of damage.
I mean, yes, Distortion strike exists, but there are few other cards that get him through and buff damage, and once you finish putting them in, the deck starts to look a lot like wee dragonnauts/kiln fiend, and I start to question why Cephalid constable is in there at all.
It goes without saying that both Rogue's Passage and Slayers' Stronghold pair amazingly well with Norin. He's easily among the most degenerate aggressive threats in the game and can routinely swing for throngs of damage. He's also a fantastic Angelic Destiny target since he's so resilient to removal which prevents any sort of blow-out. Otherwise you'll frequently want to declare him as a blocker and cast spells before damage resolves to blink him out. There's many more tricks where that came from so if you want learn more just give me a shout.
Deck is sweeeeeeet. With all of those awesome Norin shenanigans, all its missing is the Basilisk Collar + Purphoros interaction.
I mean, yes, Distortion strike exists, but there are few other cards that get him through and buff damage, and once you finish putting them in, the deck starts to look a lot like wee dragonnauts/kiln fiend, and I start to question why Cephalid constable is in there at all.
EDIT: Just so we're clear I was joking about those Norin interactions but the card is still extremely powerful in the Soul Sister archetype. That's certainly a "real deck" as it were. I was just poking fun at every Norin thread that's ever existed since players never seem to understand how the card functions.
Obviously you can replace most of the spells with Leyline of the Void to prevent opposing recursion and/or abuse your Gray Merchant. After all, CC is symmetrical.
Goddamnit, I didn't even think of including green. I like duo colored decks but now I see that the green fuels the graveyard, making my Alesha/Crypt selection way better.
Though I do notice that Grim Flayer will never trigger. No Artifacts, Sorceries or Instants or Planeswalkers. Also, I find the random selection of Enchantments weird.
Goddamnit, I didn't even think of including green. I like duo colored decks but now I see that the green fuels the graveyard, making my Alesha/Crypt selection way better.
Though I do notice that Grim Flayer will never trigger. No Artifacts, Sorceries or Instants or Planeswalkers. Though I do find the random selection of Enchantments weird.
It's not that important that he triggers but you can always field Artifact lands and/or creatures if you want. You can also replace some of the spells with things like Grisly Salvage.
The Enchantments are simply powerful Magic cards that add to your Devotion. You can field different ones if you'd rather but they make sense to me anyways. The general ides is that multiplayer = more opponents = increased probability that one player won't have effective blockers.
Crypt Champion was also part of a Standard-legal combo deck known as "Project X" back in the day. The basic interaction was casting Crypt Champion without paying Red, and stacking the triggers such that it returned a creature before sacrificing one. The creature returned would be Saffi Eriksdotter, who would be immediately sacrificed, targeting the Champion, causing it to return upon death. Thus, it would infinitely loop, and gain infinite life off of Essence Warden.
With access to the full slew of cards available to casual, this can be made even more powerful. Triggers like Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, Impact Tremors, or Purphoros, God of the Forge can be included to immediately kill the table upon resolving the combo. Sac outlets like Goblin Bombardment, Phyrexian Altar, and similar can be used to good effect as well, as you can sacrifice the Champion after Saffi's trigger has resolved, before its own trigger offs it.
I'm sure Prid3 could throw you one of his patented BGx lists that uses all kinds of sacrifice shenanigans like Catacomb Sifter along with Cutthroat/Blood Artist that this package could fit nicely into.
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Crypt Champion was also part of a Standard-legal combo deck known as "Project X" back in the day. The basic interaction was casting Crypt Champion without paying Red, and stacking the triggers such that it returned a creature before sacrificing one. The creature returned would be Saffi Eriksdotter, who would be immediately sacrificed, targeting the Champion, causing it to return upon death. Thus, it would infinitely loop, and gain infinite life off of Essence Warden.
With access to the full slew of cards available to casual, this can be made even more powerful. Triggers like Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, Impact Tremors, or Purphoros, God of the Forge can be included to immediately kill the table upon resolving the combo. Sac outlets like Goblin Bombardment, Phyrexian Altar, and similar can be used to good effect as well, as you can sacrifice the Champion after Saffi's trigger has resolved, before its own trigger offs it.
I'm sure Prid3 could throw you one of his patented BGx lists that uses all kinds of sacrifice shenanigans like Catacomb Sifter along with Cutthroat/Blood Artist that this package could fit nicely into.
Yeah I'm purposely trying to shy away from proposing infinite combo decks (unless I happen to really enjoy them) since those tend to carry a lot of negative stigma in the multiplayer community. Clearly I proposed a "virtual" infinite combo deck with the Simic Flying Men list but that's an archetype that I love playing myself so I didn't feel too bad about plugging it. Unlike most combo decks it has a legitimately unique play pattern whereas the Saffi combo is no different than tutoring for Melira + Redcap + Viscera Seer, Kiki + Zealous Conscripts/Resto Angel, Angel of Glory's Rise with sac outlets and Fiend Hunter in the GY, etc.
But yes, between Project X, Loyal Retainers, Karmic Guide, Reveillark + Gigantoplasm and Sun Titan with sac outlets such as Phyrexian Altar and Blasting Station there's a ton of ways to go infinite with Saffi. That being said those are very boring decks to play with and against in my experience (which is purely subjective obviously) which is why I proposed a fair "value" deck instead. Still, hey, if he wants something degenerate I'd be more than happy to offer some suggestions.
Yeah I'm purposely trying to shy away from proposing infinite combo decks
Some people need to realize that they aren't the only person at the table. You're there to have fun, not nuke everyone with an infinite combo on turn 3. With that being said, I have been against people whom I know field really jank infinite combo decks and it can be a blast to try and play a mini-game of "Archenemy" with the rest of the group, trying to take the combo down before it kills everyone.
Guttersnipe: Try adding a way to give it lifelink, like Basilisk Collar...it should net you a lot of life and ensures that you survive long enough to finish the job.
Planewalkers decks are totally insane and work very very very well. Basically, all you have to do is stick all your best planeswalkers in the deck, with a bunch of lands and board wipes...if you Wrath of God or Balance at just about every turn, you'll be the only one with cards left on the table. Adding some nice proliferate cards will speed things up. I dont like Thrummingbird because creatures die fast and die all the time. Also, this thing doesnt have haste and it will die in your next board wipe anyway because your planewalkers wont live long if you dont plan to wipe the table often. Go for good proliferate artifacts instead (Contagion Engine is nuts), imo
Ichor Rats: I agree with Prid3, you won' make friends by playing that type of deck. So if its a team multiplayer game, fine, your allies will provide some back up but in a free-for-all game, you'll be killed right off and you wont have enough fuel to kill more than 1 opponent. Run Tainted Strike instead if you want to kill with infect...they wont see it coming and it will work just as well.
Infernal Denizen is just a sad sad card...Fallen Empires is full of theses if you want more examples...dont waste your time on them. I dont like Drew Tucker's drawings either =/ If you really want to play this...put 4 of them in a deck focused on Shared Fate, fill the rest of your deck with kobolds and Skullclamp and look at your opponent's face after he finish reading the cards he just drew.
Planewalkers decks are totally insane and work very very very well. Basically, all you have to do is stick all your best planeswalkers in the deck, with a bunch of lands and board wipes...
You believe that a deck full of PWers and board wipes will routinely demolish Blue-based combo decks? PWers + Wrath of Gods is totally insane vs turn 1 Waste Not turn 2 Wheel of Fortune/Windfall/Dark Deal? Because I'm confident in my ability to list 100 different things that I'd rather be doing than jamming 4 mana Brainstorms.
Always remember that we are talking multiplayer here....not duel...I dont know for your playgroup, but my playgroup doesnt see many heavily aggressive combo decks that tries to win the game on turn 2 because anyone playing them will cause everyone else to band together against the combo deck every time that combo deck is played(which will either win the game in short order or collapse under the pressure and spend the rest of the game watching the other players play the game).
When the combo deck actually manages to win the game quickly, everyone agrees that the game was boring (including the one playing the deck) and that person will usually end up playing that deck very rarely or breaking it apart. So it is generally considered as a waste of time and ressources to build a deck like that. Sometimes, when the night is about to end and we know we only have 30 minutes left for a 6-players game, all of us take out our "faster" decks and we play a quick game full of affinity artifact, Kiln Fiend, Sneak Attack and other cards that tries to end the game quickly but that is the exception...I wouldnt run a deck like that in a regular game.
Also, if we start building every deck so it can deal with Waste Not decks that win the game on turn 2, we will most likely have decks with a very aggressive game start a very few cards that are strong in the late-game. In my mind, "multiplayer games" usually means that you spend more time in the late game than you spend in the early game, because of the complex challenge of winning a game against 5 or 6 opponents. It might be different for you guys but I would be surprised if anyone told me that most of their multiplayer games are ending before turn 10.
I'm not saying that a pile of planeswalkers, a pile of lands, a pile of board wipes and a few proliferate cards is the optimal planeswalker deck that you could build...im only saying that it's already doing a terrific job and I was surprised that he listed planeswalkers in this thread. Since it is already strong, adding some key synergy/combo cards (Doubling Season anyone ?) could make the thing straight up insane.
I dont know for your playgroup, but my playgroup doesnt see many heavily aggressive combo decks that tries to win the game on turn 2 because anyone playing them will cause everyone else to band together against the combo deck every time that combo deck is played(which will either win the game in short order or collapse under the pressure and spend the rest of the game watching the other players play the game).
That matters when you're playing a turn 2 combo deck? Who cares if people are teaming up on you? They either have it or they don't. Of course they're going to thwart you if they can because the alternative is to lose on the spot.
When the combo deck actually manages to win the game quickly, everyone agrees that the game was boring (including the one playing the deck) and that person will usually end up playing that deck very rarely or breaking it apart.
Also, if we start building every deck so it can deal with Waste Not decks that win the game on turn 2, we will most likely have decks with a very aggressive game start a very few cards that are strong in the late-game.
Do you have the Task Force + Outrider en-Kor + any sac outlet infinite life combo?
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Dude, this is amazing. Thank you for suggesting this! I've actually never built a deck in that style before... I'm gonna try to pick up some pieces next time I'm at the game shop.
If you're interested, we built a deck around Suncrusher in a GMAD a while back that happened to play 4 copies:
3 Suncrusher
4 Etched Oracle (1 @ -2)
2 Etched Champion (1 @ -2)
3 Trinket Mage (1 @ -1)
Artifacts: 21
2 Fist of Suns
3 Mox Opal (1 @ -2)
4 Pentad Prism
4 Energy Chamber
2 Contagion Clasp
1 Lux Cannon (1 @ -1)
1 Magistrate's Scepter
1 Clock of Omens (1 @ -1)
3 Sphere of the Suns (1 @ -1)
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
Sorcery: 3
3 Fabricate
Lands: 22
2 Great Furnace
2 Vault of Whispers
2 Tree of Tales
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Ancient Den
3 Academy Ruins
4 Glimmervoid
3 Reflecting Pool (1 @ -3, 1 @ -1))
(Ignore the votes in parenthesis, this was the final product.)
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
That's why I keep trying.
The Ooze is nice.
Quicksilver Elemental too.
Haste and sacrifice effects help.
As do animating stuff from other graveyards.
But a really good deck that wins by (ab)using Infernal Denizen is probably impossible.
But soon I'll build my eighteenth version of it.
(65th if you count tweaks)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
12x Plains
4x Boros Garrison
4x Wind-Scarred Crag
2x Boros Guildgate
1x Rogue's Passage
1x Slayers' Stronghold
Creatures (22)
4x Soul Warden
4x Soul's Attendant
3x Norin the Wary
4x Figure of Destiny
4x Ajani's Pridemate
1x Ranger of Eos
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Sun Titan
2x Return to the Ranks
3x Searing Meditation
2x Proclamation of Rebirth
2x Grasp of Fate
2x Wrath of God
2x Well of Lost Dreams
1x Immortal Servitude
It goes without saying that both Rogue's Passage and Slayers' Stronghold pair amazingly well with Norin. He's easily among the most degenerate aggressive threats in the game and can routinely swing for throngs of damage. He's also a fantastic Angelic Destiny target since he's so resilient to removal which prevents any sort of blow-out. Otherwise you'll frequently want to declare him as a blocker and cast spells before damage resolves to blink him out. There's many more tricks where that came from so if you want learn more just give me a shout.
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Imagine that .
(I might be a bit of a troll.)
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Lol, I felt bad for you because you seemed to have put a lot of that into it.
Still a great card, just not quite the degenerate aggressive threat you imagined.
To be fair, Norin is extremely effective in that deck. Just not as an aggressive threat.
I mean, yes, Distortion strike exists, but there are few other cards that get him through and buff damage, and once you finish putting them in, the deck starts to look a lot like wee dragonnauts/kiln fiend, and I start to question why Cephalid constable is in there at all.
Deck is sweeeeeeet. With all of those awesome Norin shenanigans, all its missing is the Basilisk Collar + Purphoros interaction.
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Just play Equipment. Something like 4x Mother of Runes 4x Relic Seeker 4x Cephalid Constable 4x Cold-Eyed Selkie and then things like Grafted Wargear and Dense Foliage to support them.
EDIT: Just so we're clear I was joking about those Norin interactions but the card is still extremely powerful in the Soul Sister archetype. That's certainly a "real deck" as it were. I was just poking fun at every Norin thread that's ever existed since players never seem to understand how the card functions.
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Though I did dissemble the deck before Fleshbag Marauder was printed. Alesha, Who Smiles at Death seems like another card that could benefit my previous deck.
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The trick is to build around Grenzo, Dungeon Warden and to treat him like a Goblin Ringleader. You want to build something close to:
4x Savage Lands
4x Jungle Hollow
4x Bloodfell Caves
4x Forest
4x Mountain
2x Swamp
2x Evolving Wilds
Creatures (30)
4x Satyr Wayfinder
4x Grim Flayer
4x Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
3x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
2x Nyx Weaver
2x Catacomb Sifter
1x Nighthowler
4x Crypt Champion
1x Balthor the Defiled
1x Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Bloodchief Ascension
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
1x Oversold Cemetery
1x Grim Feast
1x Deathreap Ritual
1x Whip of Erebos
Obviously you can replace most of the spells with Leyline of the Void to prevent opposing recursion and/or abuse your Gray Merchant. After all, CC is symmetrical.
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Though I do notice that Grim Flayer will never trigger. No Artifacts, Sorceries or Instants or Planeswalkers. Also, I find the random selection of Enchantments weird.
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It's not that important that he triggers but you can always field Artifact lands and/or creatures if you want. You can also replace some of the spells with things like Grisly Salvage.
The Enchantments are simply powerful Magic cards that add to your Devotion. You can field different ones if you'd rather but they make sense to me anyways. The general ides is that multiplayer = more opponents = increased probability that one player won't have effective blockers.
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Crypt Champion was also part of a Standard-legal combo deck known as "Project X" back in the day. The basic interaction was casting Crypt Champion without paying Red, and stacking the triggers such that it returned a creature before sacrificing one. The creature returned would be Saffi Eriksdotter, who would be immediately sacrificed, targeting the Champion, causing it to return upon death. Thus, it would infinitely loop, and gain infinite life off of Essence Warden.
With access to the full slew of cards available to casual, this can be made even more powerful. Triggers like Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, Impact Tremors, or Purphoros, God of the Forge can be included to immediately kill the table upon resolving the combo. Sac outlets like Goblin Bombardment, Phyrexian Altar, and similar can be used to good effect as well, as you can sacrifice the Champion after Saffi's trigger has resolved, before its own trigger offs it.
I'm sure Prid3 could throw you one of his patented BGx lists that uses all kinds of sacrifice shenanigans like Catacomb Sifter along with Cutthroat/Blood Artist that this package could fit nicely into.
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Yeah I'm purposely trying to shy away from proposing infinite combo decks (unless I happen to really enjoy them) since those tend to carry a lot of negative stigma in the multiplayer community. Clearly I proposed a "virtual" infinite combo deck with the Simic Flying Men list but that's an archetype that I love playing myself so I didn't feel too bad about plugging it. Unlike most combo decks it has a legitimately unique play pattern whereas the Saffi combo is no different than tutoring for Melira + Redcap + Viscera Seer, Kiki + Zealous Conscripts/Resto Angel, Angel of Glory's Rise with sac outlets and Fiend Hunter in the GY, etc.
But yes, between Project X, Loyal Retainers, Karmic Guide, Reveillark + Gigantoplasm and Sun Titan with sac outlets such as Phyrexian Altar and Blasting Station there's a ton of ways to go infinite with Saffi. That being said those are very boring decks to play with and against in my experience (which is purely subjective obviously) which is why I proposed a fair "value" deck instead. Still, hey, if he wants something degenerate I'd be more than happy to offer some suggestions.
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Some people need to realize that they aren't the only person at the table. You're there to have fun, not nuke everyone with an infinite combo on turn 3. With that being said, I have been against people whom I know field really jank infinite combo decks and it can be a blast to try and play a mini-game of "Archenemy" with the rest of the group, trying to take the combo down before it kills everyone.
Planewalkers decks are totally insane and work very very very well. Basically, all you have to do is stick all your best planeswalkers in the deck, with a bunch of lands and board wipes...if you Wrath of God or Balance at just about every turn, you'll be the only one with cards left on the table. Adding some nice proliferate cards will speed things up. I dont like Thrummingbird because creatures die fast and die all the time. Also, this thing doesnt have haste and it will die in your next board wipe anyway because your planewalkers wont live long if you dont plan to wipe the table often. Go for good proliferate artifacts instead (Contagion Engine is nuts), imo
Ichor Rats: I agree with Prid3, you won' make friends by playing that type of deck. So if its a team multiplayer game, fine, your allies will provide some back up but in a free-for-all game, you'll be killed right off and you wont have enough fuel to kill more than 1 opponent. Run Tainted Strike instead if you want to kill with infect...they wont see it coming and it will work just as well.
Infernal Denizen is just a sad sad card...Fallen Empires is full of theses if you want more examples...dont waste your time on them. I dont like Drew Tucker's drawings either =/ If you really want to play this...put 4 of them in a deck focused on Shared Fate, fill the rest of your deck with kobolds and Skullclamp and look at your opponent's face after he finish reading the cards he just drew.
You believe that a deck full of PWers and board wipes will routinely demolish Blue-based combo decks? PWers + Wrath of Gods is totally insane vs turn 1 Waste Not turn 2 Wheel of Fortune/Windfall/Dark Deal? Because I'm confident in my ability to list 100 different things that I'd rather be doing than jamming 4 mana Brainstorms.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
When the combo deck actually manages to win the game quickly, everyone agrees that the game was boring (including the one playing the deck) and that person will usually end up playing that deck very rarely or breaking it apart. So it is generally considered as a waste of time and ressources to build a deck like that. Sometimes, when the night is about to end and we know we only have 30 minutes left for a 6-players game, all of us take out our "faster" decks and we play a quick game full of affinity artifact, Kiln Fiend, Sneak Attack and other cards that tries to end the game quickly but that is the exception...I wouldnt run a deck like that in a regular game.
Also, if we start building every deck so it can deal with Waste Not decks that win the game on turn 2, we will most likely have decks with a very aggressive game start a very few cards that are strong in the late-game. In my mind, "multiplayer games" usually means that you spend more time in the late game than you spend in the early game, because of the complex challenge of winning a game against 5 or 6 opponents. It might be different for you guys but I would be surprised if anyone told me that most of their multiplayer games are ending before turn 10.
I'm not saying that a pile of planeswalkers, a pile of lands, a pile of board wipes and a few proliferate cards is the optimal planeswalker deck that you could build...im only saying that it's already doing a terrific job and I was surprised that he listed planeswalkers in this thread. Since it is already strong, adding some key synergy/combo cards (Doubling Season anyone ?) could make the thing straight up insane.
It's not like I have a throng of multiplayer guides listed in my sig and/or the stickied thread at the top of the forums or anything right?
That matters when you're playing a turn 2 combo deck? Who cares if people are teaming up on you? They either have it or they don't. Of course they're going to thwart you if they can because the alternative is to lose on the spot.
That's an opinion, not a fact.
Why would decks that win games on the spot against any number of players need to worry about an endgame? When you get to go turn 3 Deceiver Exarch turn 4 Splinter twin, turn 4 Mizzix's Mastery on Enter the Infinite (into Simian Spirit Guides, Lotus Petals, Silences, Laboratory Maniac and Gush), turn 3-4 Basalt Monolith out a Hive Mind and jam Pact of Negations + Pact of the Titans all with Silence, Swan Song, Foil, etc, backup fueled by oppressive draw engines such as Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study and fueled by degenerate ramp such as Carpet of Flowers then why would you ever have games last longer than 6 turns?
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