I'm known in my circles for using "bad" cards. My opponents have Black Lotuses, Time Walks, Ancestral Recalls, etc, and I don't. And yet game after game the entire 5-7 player FFA table has to gang up on me or I will win. Instead of looking at the individual power level of the cards, we have to focus on what really wins the game and what will take us there: mana efficiency.
About me: 2K composite rated player when I was active in the tournament scene. Spike.
If I don't mention something, it's because Prid3 already covered it in his excellent guides that he really needs to compile into an e-book and sell.
Competitive Multiplayer Truths - Facts don't care about your feelings
If you want to build fun and quirky decks, just stop reading.
Multiplayer isn't a "fair" format. The primary factor in multiplayer games is time. Games will end with degeneracy one way or another. Infinite turns/mana, 30+ global damage, 10 20/20 tramplers, and getting teamed are all commonplace. 6 mana cards not named "Primeval Titan" or "Consecrated Sphinx" are hard to justify because they are too slow. 7+ mana cards that don't win immediately have to at least kill off or cripple some people who were threatening to win this turn. 7 mana is the cutoff because it's around this point where people will be casting ridiculous stuff like Tooth and Nail, Biorhythym, Cyclonic Rift, or some infinite combo. Tapping out for Avenger of Zendikar and passing turn looks real dumb compared to what your opponents will be doing.
I don't care that your group has a banlist, games will end by degeneracy. 20 years of printing cards means that are too many devastaing combos and synergies out there to ban. Multiplayer isn't fair.
Your deck colors will be U/x if you want to win. This is non-negotiable. Someone forgot to tell Wizards that blue shouldn't be the best at nearly everything.
Blue also has the best removal: bounce. With things like Persist, Indestructible, Regenerating, and Undying, "destroy" effects are lackluster. And for many decks, creatures in the graveyard are even better than in hand because reanimation effects are mana efficient. Whelming Wave, Cyclonic Rift, and Displacement Wave (read: Pernicious Deed) don't even care about Hexproof/Shroud/Protection. No you don't care about your opponents reusing their Mulldrifter again, because the game is ending soon because of degeneracy.
The Multani problem
Big, dumb, non-haste creatures are the worst things you can do with your time. Multani, Maro-Sorcerer will routinely be 40/40 or larger and he is completely unplayable as an attacker. If you're comboing him with Pandemonium or something, that's different. But in multiplayer games, too much can happen between this turn and your next. Now take that logic farther: if a 40/40 shroud for 6 is unplayable, does creature size for non-haste, non-evasion creatures actually matter? No.
Yes Multani gets rid of a person who can't seem to field a creature. But in terms of actually winning the game, Multani isn't going to get you there over Tooth and Nail, Enter the Infinite, Insurrection, etc.
Here's a short, not all encompassing, list of easy multiplayer kill cards:
Most of these just require random dorks and standard good cards you're probably already using. Not a lot of complicated setup: just cast and win. Some, like Bloodchief Ascension, Insurrection, and Dragonstorm, require a little effort but are well worth it.
While someone plays Voltron with Thrun, the Last Troll, another player cast Waste Not and Windfall, drawing their deck, cast Exsanguinate for 10+, and put 30 power worth of 2/2's on the board. I can't emphasize it enough: big dumb creatures are an awful plan in multiplayer.
Expected mana over the course of the game
If a game goes to an average of 10 turns and you gain a mana every turn, you will have 1+2+3...+10= 55 mana for the entire game. Obviously you will sometimes have more due to things like Gaea's Cradle, but sometimes you will have less due to missed land drops. You will also not use all your mana every turn. So this 55 mana is probably closer to 45 mana.
When viewed in this light, you can ask yourself better questions:
Is spending 10 mana (~20% of the total mana for the game!) on Batterskull + equip really going to get me there?
Is spending 9 mana to draw 4 cards with Mind's Eye really better than Tidings? Or better than Stroke of Genius? Or Promise of Power or Harmonize?
Mana is the limiting factor of multiplayer and all cards should be evaluated accordingly. Raw power level of the cards is a distant second.
Why not go full combo?
Full combo decks are generally vulnerable in some way, and if they aren't then the table just solves that problem by piledriving you at the start of each game. Obvious combo pieces like Alluren or Mind Over Matter will tip off the table quite quickly.
Sleepers
Mask of the Mimic: You will see the same creatures over and over in multiplayer, meaning you can easily plan for this card to be a Clone for one mana. At the worst, you can duplicate your best creature. Or sacrifice your creture in response to removal or a steal effect. Wonderful utility and absurd power level for a one mana instant. Trading in your Sea Gate Oracle for a Primeval Titan is commonplace.
Vexing Sphinx: Creatures in multiplayer only last a round or three. Blue can have problems in the early game shoring up defense while looking for later plays. Since you can order the age counter and discard upkeeps, you can put a counter on first to draw an extra card before it dies due to not paying discard upkeep. You're basically renting this creature for two turns for 3 mana since you draw as many cards as you discard. It's fantastic card filtering and early defense for a color that loves both. Eats early planeswalkers too.
Illusory Angel: Like Plumeveil, but it attacks. Instead of Fog Bank, this guy can eat planeswalkers as well. The 3 mana investment is so low that it's easy to throw down early (T2: Sol Ring -> Angel) and obsoletes a lot of annoying early aggression.
Deep-Sea Kraken: 6/6 unblockable for 3. In blue. Dodges your T4 Whelming Wave or someone's Wrath of God. Good at thinning the field or quickly removing planeswalkers.
Magus of the Library: Better than Library of Alexandria. No joke. Library of Alexandria is like stone raining yourself since you can't tap it both for mana and cards at the same time. So anyone who puts out a library gets attacked immediately. They spend cards defending themselves, and presto: no 7 cards to draw with, or they eat 10+ damage and can be picked off. Magus is a mana dude with legit upside of drawing. Later he also chumps.
In a duel, you can afford to Stone Rain yourself, draw some cards, and catch up later. In multiplayer, you fall too far behind.
Panglacial Wurm: Fetchlands (and their Mirage block counterparts) can be reused to grab a 9/5 trample at instant speed. It turns a lot of dead ramp effects into something useful later on. It's also handy with Crop Rotation, Worldly Tutor, Mystical Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor. One in the deck is plenty. You can also bluff him in other games if you decide to take him out.
Forbidden Orchard: Any color of mana you want, with zero drawback. All of the damage those 1/1's deal is less damage you'll have to deal.
Sheltering Ancient: Better than Tarmogoyf in multiplayer. Yes I hear you laughing. Goyf not only gets chumped, he doesn't create escalating problems for your opponents. A non-evasion creature is nearly useless in multiplayer (see: Multani, Maro-Sorcerer). You can choose to not pay the upkeep if you want, but creatures don't usually last more than a few rounds anyway.
Æther Gale: Blue Hex that also also hits planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments. WTF Wizards? You spend 5 mana to remove 30 mana worth of permanents.
Profaner of the Dead: Yet another one way board wipe for blue and great sacrifice outlet for stolen creatures. Plague Wind costs 9 for black, but Blue gets several options that cost 4, 5 (Æther Gale), or 7 (Cyclonic Rift, Scourge of Fleets). The amount of unfair multiplayer blue cards is shocking.
Mirrorweave: Blue Overrun, except way better because you can use it defensively. Immediately upgrade all your guys into Primeval Titans and attack. Can also be used politically to eliminate someone(s) from the game.
Removal is only as good as the target you're using it on. Bouncing a 2 mana guy with Unsummon is atrocious. Even Path to Exile on that guy is terrible. Bouncing a 4 mana guy that they are trying to equip a sword to is a 9-1 mana blowout.
Massacre Wurm: Often kills a player or two outright upon cast or after a board wipe. Cloning him is pretty great too.
Sangromancer, Geth's Grimoire: Both of these add tremendous value for very little investment. Watch at all the natural discard that happens in a game. People discard to spells (Thirst for Knowledge), because they over-draw, because they are mana-screwed, or because of forced discard by someone else. There will be some times where these cards aren't great, but the ceilings on them are fantastic.
Jace Beleren: For 3 mana, you draw 6 cards. That one extra card you give the table isn't of much consequence. This is the best Jace for pure card drawing.
Krosan Tusker: One of the best draw spells, and it's not even blue!
Creeperhulk: A walking Overrun that is easier to use than Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. 20 life isn't a lot, and Overrun on T7 is often overkill for one player but not enough for two. Putting 4 mana to turn two mana dudes into 15 trampling power on T6 is usually enough because of fetchlands and other incidental damage. The body on Creeperhulk and mana requirements are so much better than Kamahl as well.
Careful Consideration: People talk about Fact or Fiction and somehow leave this one off of the list. It's basically a FoF but you get to choose exactly what you keep and where everything goes! The pseudo sorcery aspect of it can be a bonus or not, depending on the deck. It also says "draw", which interacts better with cards like Chasm Skulker / Abundance.
Dack's Duplicate: Best clone ever. All the degenerate crap your opponent wanted to do, you got to do a turn earlier. And for cheaper.
Moment's Peace: A Time Walk that you can discard. Fog effects are usually terrible, but sometimes you have to buy that one more turn or two to set up. This one makes the cut because you can discard it and not lose value.
Savor the Moment: At it's worst, it's Explore. At it's best it gives you great value from planeswalkers and effectively gives haste to the guys you cast. One example: Waste Not -> Windfall degeneracy -> Savor the Moment -> win.
Submerge: Someone will have a forest, don't worry. In response to your Primeval Titan search, let's put him on the top of the deck. GG NO RE.
Aven Mindcensor, Stranglehold, Shadow of Doubt: Obviously shutting down tutors is the main goal, but locking out fetchlands can't go unnoticed. Sneaky land destruction.
Price of Progress: In a high powered environment, this will kill off several players on turn 7-8. For two mana, it routinely will deal 30+ damage to the table.
High Market: Homeward Path before Homeward Path was printed. Stop people from stealing or copying your stuff for a very low investment. Primeval Titans in our group typically fetch a gating land (Simic Growth Chamber) and a High Market. Bounce the market, play it untapped to sacrifice the titan rather than eat 6 on your opponent's turn or have them kick Rite of Replication on it.
Underrated
Mana dorks: A player in our group has kept statistics on his games, and dorks > rocks in terms of winrate. And it's not close. Why? A random mana dude can chump, while a rock can't. Random dudes can also combo with things like Ogre Battledriver, Biorhythm, equipment, Craterhoof Behemoth, Gaea's Cradle, etc. A mana rock past turn 4 or 5 is usually a dead draw.
Delay, Memory Lapse, Remand, Swan Song, Stifle, Arcane Denial: These are all hard counterspells with zero drawbacks in multiplayer. The game will end before those Delay counters come off. The only reason you are playing with counters is to stop opposing haymakers. You can't hope to counter every threat at the table, so focus on the ones which make you lose immediately. If you use one of these on Primeval Titan, I will punch you through the internet.
Clogged board: In a degenerate meta, know what are good cards? Wall of Blossoms. Borderland Ranger. Sea Gate Oracle. Seriously. Just because it's a high powered format doesn't mean every card has to be banlist worthy. Hitting land drops while discouraging aggression is very valuable since you can't possibly have the answers to every problem at all times. It's simply not feasible to hold and cast enough counterspells to combat the table, so don't try. These cards can become a lot bigger with things like Craterhoof Behemoth or Mirrorweave. And they also don't get you killed to Reins of Power or Insurrection.
Consistency: In this post I've already mentioned a ton of seemingly terrible cards. Yet I win a plurality in our group. It's because my deck very rarely craps out on me. My Borderland Rangers keep the land coming and meat in front of me. I don't have useless Carrion Feeders or other combo pieces clogging my hand, just game winning cards or things I'm happy to cast naturally. My Vexing Sphinxes keep me safe while improving my draw. Unsummon/Pongify stopped a Kiki-Jiki combo. And then next turn I Natural Order into Craterhoof Behemoth and win.
The cards doing the heavy lifting are usually the mana and tutors, NOT the filler of the deck. You maximize your chances of winning by maximizing the times you play the game winning cards. My win condition of choice, Craterhoof, depends on having dudes on board and mana to cast him. Borderland Ranger does both of those things while something like Duskgrove Elder or Thrun, the Last Troll do not, even though they are objectively better cards.
Make them prove it: As Day[9] said, sometimes the best plan is just to go kill them. If someone is seemingly about to win next turn, tilt your guys sideways at them if you don't have the answer in hand. Often the table will pitch in and/or your opponent won't be able to seal the deal. This is my default plan when facing Mana Reflection/Mirari's Wake or a card drawer that takes mana (Mind's Eye), and it has worked out well for me.
Overrated
Equipment: Yes really. It's either incredibly low value (Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice) and/or mana intensive (Blade of Selves, Batterskull). One of them no one cares about, and the other one is asking to get blown out with a timely removal spell. In a game going to a maximum of 10 turns, congratulations on wasting two of them casting a creature and then trying to equip it.
Defensive cards: The guy who keeps stats on his games also clearly shows that cards like Diamond Valley and Maze of Ith are terrible. In a vaccuum, they are fantastic cards. But in multiplayer, staving off death for a turn is not the same as winning the game. You know what has a higher winrate than Diamond Valley? High Market! Yes the mana is that important. He's tracked these stats over 1,000's of games.
Blocking: Chump blocking is fine if you're preventing lethal, but blocking to trade guys is very rarely good. By trading guys, you and an opponent are just falling down the stairs with your hands locked around each other's throats in a death embrace. By letting them through, you keep your options open for later. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Gaea's Cradle are big reasons not to trade. Having cards like Natural Order and Azami, Lady of Scrolls in the deck mean trading guys is a disaster.
You start with 20 life. An opponent might start attacking you around turn 4/5 with a 4+ power guy. That gives you until turn 7/8 to care. Just roll down like a man. A 3 power guy will take 7 turns to kill you unaided. That's why I recommend dudes like Vexing Sphinx. They discourage early aggression and nearly guarantee living to turns 8/9.
Lifegain: The first 10-20 life gained will yield the most impact as most decks are focused on dealing 20, 40, or infinite. So Extort effects and random lifegain attached to guys like Thragtusk is very valuable to temporarily get you out of range, but dedicated lifegain like Ivory Tower is going to be overkill (unless it's part of the plan, ie Tinker).
Traditional Ramp: Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Gaea's Cradle, Cloudpost, and Cabal Coffers have put most other ramp to shame. Rampant growth effects are so bad compared to Rofellos, Priest of Titania, Oracle of Mul Daya, or Sol Ring. Color fixing can be done with fetchlands. Because these lands are so strong, Wasteland effects are in high demand. But how much are you willing to sacrifice? Using Wasteland when you have 5 land total might be sabotaging your chances just as bad as you're doing to someone else.
I notice you're not really addressing nonblue sweepers, either as answers or as problems. Care to elaborate? I've never ever been sad to draw Wrath of God, and a lot of the cards you praise for being warm bodies are actually at a disadvantage to a simple sweeper.
Of course you're not sad to draw Wrath of God. It's a fantastic card! Non-blue sweepers are perfectly fine, and oftentimes better than blue ones (Hallowed Burial,Blasphemous Act, Decree of Pain). Part of what I tried, and failed, to achieve in the post was to break down highly outdated notions such as "blue has bad creatures" or "blue has bad removal".
Regarding vulnerability to sweepers, I generally don't care about them. Untap and throw down a Scute Mob and Managorger Hydra. You're basically threatening death again for someone next turn. Card advantage is trivial after 20 years of printing. Blue, green, and black all draw cards like crazy. Take your pick of ridiculous: Greater Good, Momentous Fall, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Life's Legacy, etc etc etc. I'd argue that at power draw, green > blue! Oracle of Mul Daya also nearly guarantees that you won't draw a land again. It effectively increases the spell density of your deck from 60% to 100%.
Card advantage in multiplayer is further diminished when there are dozens of cards that read "delete player from the game". Overwhelming Stampede, Mirrorweave, Mass Mutiny, Hatred, etc. Since it takes one card to kill a player (or the table), how many cards do you actually need?
Of course you're not sad to draw Wrath of God. It's a fantastic card! Non-blue sweepers are perfectly fine, and oftentimes better than blue ones (Hallowed Burial,Blasphemous Act, Decree of Pain). Part of what I tried, and failed, to achieve in the post was to break down highly outdated notions such as "blue has bad creatures" or "blue has bad removal".
When it comes to removal you're overrating every non-Cyclonic Rift mass bounce spell. They're all "fine" but they're not on the same level as cards like Toxic Deluge or Pernicious Deed. I agree with you that mass bounce is criminally underrated which is why I keep pushing people to play with cards like Whelming Wave as "Wrath of Gods" but at the same time there's a limit to how far bounce can take you. Bounce will always and forever be a tempo play i.e. a temporary answer to a permanent threat. If you can combo-off/lock the board/beat in for the win then it's irrelevant but I've seen bad decks bounce the board multiple times and still easily lose. The people who curve Upheaval into Primeval Titan/Sylvan Primordial on the same turn are doing it right but the ones playing fair decks thinking that Evacuation will save them aren't.
Since it takes one card to kill a player (or the table), how many cards do you actually need?
Drawing more cards = you acquire more resources = you get to assemble your combos more reliably than others and fire them off with Pact of Negation, Swan Song, Mana Drain and Force of Will backup. I agree with you when you said that all-in combo decks are bad because they lose to disruption. The easiest way to beat said disruption is to fill your deck with cards like Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Silence, Defense Grid and Force of Will to thwart it.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I just think that you're overrating some aspects of Blue (its creatures and removal) and underrating its oppressive draw engines and cheap/free counterspells. We both agree that Blue is, at worst, in the top 2 multiplayer colors (some would argue Green is king) and no one can deny that Blue/Green/Black are the "I want to win" colors. Blue's good creatures are very good (but also extremely expensive $ wise) but it generally leans on its oppressive card draw, reliable + cheap interaction and powerful combo kills to close games out. I agree that sometimes means jamming Hunted Phantasm as a 4/6 "Wall" (I've played that card countless times myself) who "buys you a friend" but at the same time I don't look at that card and think "Blue has better threats than Green/White."
I just think that you're overrating some aspects of Blue (its creatures and removal) and underrating its oppressive draw engines and cheap/free counterspells.
Let's start here and work backwards. What I didn't want to do was repeat what others have said, so I certainly [over?] emphasized some points and ignored others. I didn't mention things like Mystic Remora or Consecrated Sphinx because those have been talked to death. What hasn't been covered much is the "why" these cards win: mana efficiency.
White crushes Blue on the creature front with powerful + disruptive + cheap threats such as Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Containment Priest, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Aven Mindcensor, Grand Abolisher, Hushwing Gryff and a host of others.
Excluding Aven Mindcensor, never in my life have I ever cared about these cards in a multiplayer setting.
When it comes to removal you're overrating every non-Cyclonic Rift mass bounce spell. They're all "fine" but they're not on the same level as cards like Toxic Deluge or Pernicious Deed.
The big thing is living long enough be the last one standing. Blue removal does that. Do other colors do it "better" in some respects? Sure, but who cares if it's already good enough to win?
Mystic Remora, Accumulated Knowledge + Intuition, Thirst for Knowledge, Rhystic Study, Trade Secrets, Fact or Fiction, Consecrated Sphinx, Recurring Insight, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time and more all disagree with that assessment. It's not even remotely debatable as far as I'm concerned. Blue is the unquestioned king of card draw and it's not close.
Whether you draw 14 over two turns with Recurring Insight or 10 with Soul's Majesty, who cares? Both are a ton of cards.
My point is this: I'm an 80/20 guy. The vast majority of your wins will come from surviving long enough to playing the 100+ brutally overpowered cards and combos. The difference between Fact or Fiction and Harmonize is negligible in the face of slamming a Prophet of Kruphix on the board. What matters is that both are mana efficient enough to be in the conversation.
@rocketbrainsurgeon
Would you be willing to post a few desk lists? Not too interested in the mana base other than the total quantity of lands, but the way you typically pair the draw/finishers/disruption would be helpful to see if it can benefit me (maybe others also) on how to make the best use of that.
@rocketbrainsurgeon
Would you be willing to post a few desk lists? Not too interested in the mana base other than the total quantity of lands, but the way you typically pair the draw/finishers/disruption would be helpful to see if it can benefit me (maybe others also) on how to make the best use of that.
Aye mate, I'd love to see me some decklists for assimilation.
By the by, your summary was a good read. We're on the opposite end of the fun stick in regards to our play styles, but reading up on everything you said was interesting.
Personally I disagree with a few points; namely that I find U to be only the forth best colour in big Magic multiplayer games. Best draw in the business, but other than that I find Blue very lacking. In my own experience/meta; Black, Green & White are the Kings. Most of my mates splash Blue & Red for a few choice cards, whereas myself am the only who purposefully plays mono-Red. I enjoy a good uphill battle. Few things challenge my skill at the table then mono-Red.
Great read, thanks for the post and looking forward for more. I was suprised by the fact that mana dorks are better than mana rocks. I feel like this has to depend on the meta a little bit. I'm way more comfortable playing rocks myself. Like you explained, I don't care if people hit me early on, I rather know for sure that I'll have the mana to do something huge turn 4-5 than be crippled whenever someone board clears. When something that matters hits the board, Ill probly have the first piece of a win condition like glacial chasm or willbreaker, or my own board clear. Sure I have decks with mana dorks, but they are designed to potentially abuse them. (sakura tribe elder and gift of immortality)
I liked reading your opinion but the "I don't care if your group has a banlist" part should be mentioned while I know you were simply referencing it to make a point about degeneracy winning games there are vast differnces in groups using vastly different rules . a group that uses a vintage card pool with no rules and groups saying "only modern legal cards we don't allow counterspells anhilator extra turns or infinite combos" will be very different ball games. Mets game too is important for example if you play in group #2 and they all like aggro and start triple swinging at you with wild nacatals because your playing a deck that kills tables throws a wrenching into the deck building and all the sudden cards that are normally fairly bad like kitchen finks are all the sudden very potent choices. While it was an interesting read I think it's only really applicable to your meta and rule set. I too have played one version or another of unsanctioned multiplayer since I started playing and the rule sets VERY much determine success. For example I played in a group that used only modern legal cards and the deck construction rules were 250+ cards all non lands must be singleton. In that format rampant growths starts looking like a pretty sexy card to put on your curve at 2.
I have to agree with @rocketbrainsurgeon albeit mostly agree. I 100% agree when discussing your overall mana usage as a player, you get a pool of 55 mana to spend in a game, based on the 9-10 turn clock that starts ticking immediately. Make certain your mana use counts, in the grand scheme of things.
My one point of disagreement: Does your deck have to have blue in it? Well it certainly helps in some avenues, but that is the beauty of this game. @rocketbrainsurgeon plays U/G and typically sticks with it and is successful. I would never build a deck that doesn't have B in it, that being said, it is typically my R spells that win me games.
A particular thorn in my side lately has been Elesh Norn, every color can be as good as blue, at what they do, if you use your limited mana in an intelligent way.
"Why? What sort of banlist does your group have that prevents degeneracy?"
i never said it did im saying that the banlist being used and meta is important comments like "Your deck colors will be U/x if you want to win. " become fairly irrelevant if the group bans out most of the blue cards that are good for instance i play in many groups that do not use anything not legal in modern and one that literally bans all counter-spells.
The number one thing I agree with is the total amount of turns required per victory. Statistically this is a simple matter of noting turns and total mana produced and dividing by total players. From here, depending on how analytical you are, you can deviate into many other statistics. This is even easier to do if your playgroup is always the same amount of people. By taking this approach to deckbuilding, I can see the potential fot a more efficient use of mana.
The part I completely disagree with is the "One size fits all approach" to player metas. Judging by the responses here and in other threads about different metas, the consensus is you build your Magic decks to perform in the metas that you play in. Banlists, house rules, infinite or not, removal heavy, removal light, combo, group size, $$$, etc all play huge roles in determining how I build and play my decks.
You can use the most efficient cards in the game, build a deck with crazy synergy and still easily lose. Flooding or screw at the wrong time can crush even the best decks. You can also become public enemy #1 for simply winning the game before, or for winning too many games.
The part I completely disagree with is the "One size fits all approach" to player metas. Judging by the responses here and in other threads about different metas, the consensus is you build your Magic decks to perform in the metas that you play in. Banlists, house rules, infinite or not, removal heavy, removal light, combo, group size, $$$, etc all play huge roles in determining how I build and play my decks.
Aye mate, I agree.
Without some form of massremoval my own meta would be very hard to beat, as it is both creature and token heavy. Using an ol' Cyclonic Rift would slow things down, certainly, but it is a temporary measure at best. I prefer to simply remove those threats completely.
$$$ is also an important factor; including myself, there are some in my meta that don't mind dropping 50$ per card for a playset of something like Linvala, Keeper of Silence or 13$ per card for something like Tinker. Sometimes I just gotta go with the flow and out money some shmuck just so I can keep up - the last big purchase I can remember was a playset of Ensnaring Bridge and Gauntlet of Might, both of whom have proved amazing against the current meta.
Hell, I've been considering making an investment in Damnation in order to make my Black deck even more effective, though I think I'll stick with Toxic Deluge since it gets around things like Indestructible and Regenerate. Still, even as a consideration Damnation is close to 90$ per card. This is the kind of monetary nonsense I deal with at my meta sometimes.
$$$ is also an important factor; including myself, there are some in my meta that don't mind dropping 50$ per card for a playset of something
Hell, I've been considering making an investment in Damnation in order to make my Black deck even more effective, though I think I'll stick with Toxic Deluge since it gets around things like Indestructible and Regenerate. Still, even as a consideration Damnation is close to 90$ per card. This is the kind of monetary nonsense I deal with at my meta sometimes.
It's an arms race in our meta as well. Staring down $1600 mana bases when you are bringing 24 basics to the party is rough. For the most part, everyone has some sort of dual lands, the rich play with revised duals/shocks/fetches the rest play with shocks/fetches/checklands, just not always full playsets.
This is why we built a multiplayer cube. It gives everyone an equal chance to play broken magic with the best possible mana bases.
It's not to say we don't still play FFA because we do, but we tend to play "themes". For example, someone will say, play your favorite Timmy deck. Out comes G/B Hydras, Mono U Quest for Ula's Temple, a nasty colorless Eldrazi deck, and G/r 12 Post. Or, let's go tribal. It becomes zombies/vampires/knights/goblins/elves/humans/angels/myr/tokens
Hmmm... My worst decks often have my revised duals. Five color experimental or tribal messes.
My toughest and most competative decks often field 18-20 swamps plus some coffers, Nyktos and Urborg.
Money is a factor. But synergy more so.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Whoa. Where do you shop? I can order them for literally half that.
At Canadian prices. Even when I order from the States, after including shipping & handling, the cost is still very, very high. I try to shop from CND sites when I can, but American retailers like ABUGames usually have a much better, larger selection.
Magic ain't cheap. Especially as I live in a small town; ordering cards in is about the best I can hope for. The closest FLGS is a half hour away and is pretty tiny. His selection of Magic stock is pretty limited, so his prices sometimes are... higher than average. Though, he did offer to sell me a Snapcaster Mage for sixty bucks, which is dirt cheap compared to other retailers. I said I'd think about it...
Excluding Aven Mindcensor, never in my life have I ever cared about these cards in a multiplayer setting.
How frequently do you face turn 1-2 Limited Resources or turn 3-4 Armageddon/Ravages of War? Disruptive threats + MLD is extremely competitive. I'm also just plain happy to have a card like Grand Abolisher in play when I'm trying to combo off.
Just playing Clone.dec ensures you always have the very best creature on board.
Clones.dec isn't actually competitive. In practice decks are typically designed with combos/synergies/key interactions in mind and your inability to capitalize on them until others do puts you at a disadvantage. Even when people are literally playing pure GoodStuffs.dec they still get to jam their stuff first and even if you create a tempo advantage for yourself by generating the same threat for reduced mana you're still playing a reactive game that's always one step behind. I'm not saying that Clones are bad or anything, I'm just saying that I've played a lot of competitive multiplayer (cMP) and the only time that I see Clones are when people are using them as part of combo kills. Phantasmal Image is the primary exception since it's the strongest Clone in cMP but in general I only see cards like Gigantoplasm if it's being paired with Reveillark or something.
I disagree that we're splitting hairs. I personally feel that there's a sizable gap in the card's overall power-levels. In multiplayer I can run out a Mystic Remora and Fastbond/Carpet of Flowers/Burgeoning/Exploration on turn 1-2 and know that my opponents are screwed. I'm going to draw more cards and produce more mana that a huge % of the table combined. For Green's "big" card draw to work you need a giant threat and sometimes to dodge removal. Given the choice of the playing the deck with Mystic Remora and Burgeoning or Managorger Hydra and Hunter's Insight I choose the former 100% of the time and it's not close.
My point is this: I'm an 80/20 guy. The vast majority of your wins will come from surviving long enough to playing the 100+ brutally overpowered cards and combos. The difference between Fact or Fiction and Harmonize is negligible in the face of slamming a Prophet of Kruphix on the board. What matters is that both are mana efficient enough to be in the conversation.
I have a very similar mindset and I agree with most of what you're saying. That being said I don't agree that Blue has amazing creatures nor do I feel that Green can compete with Blue when it comes to card draw. Where we do share a common understanding is that "it doesn't matter as long as you win" but I still feel that it's important to be honest and realistic with your card/color evaluations. We both agree that Blue is a very wining color but I doubt that either of us play Blue because it has the best creatures. They're "good enough" to pass muster but that's fine too. We don't have to pretend that Blue has an amazing suite of creatures since we can sell people on its oppressive card draw, cheap/free interaction and degenerate combos/1-card win conditions. I do want to stress that we agree on many aspects of multiplayer but I've been playing cMP for a very long time so when I hear things like "Blue has the best creatures" or "those White creatures don't matter" strikes me as odd. Turn 1 Limited Resources turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a strong draw that beats a lot of strategies. Spirit of the Labyrinth is very, very, very good in degenerate Vintage metas filled with oppressive card draw. 2 mana "counter all draw spells" is a very real card. Grand Abolisher is nuts in combo/Stax since it denies any and all interaction. Aven Mindcensor neutering tutors/fetches is amazing. Containment Priest preventing all unfair "cheat" spells is fantastic. I find it very hard to believe that you're building competitive decks that don't care about these kinds of effects, especially when they're supported with MLD and/or Stax effects.
About me: 2K composite rated player when I was active in the tournament scene. Spike.
If I don't mention something, it's because Prid3 already covered it in his excellent guides that he really needs to compile into an e-book and sell.
Competitive Multiplayer Truths - Facts don't care about your feelings
If you want to build fun and quirky decks, just stop reading.
Multiplayer isn't a "fair" format. The primary factor in multiplayer games is time. Games will end with degeneracy one way or another. Infinite turns/mana, 30+ global damage, 10 20/20 tramplers, and getting teamed are all commonplace. 6 mana cards not named "Primeval Titan" or "Consecrated Sphinx" are hard to justify because they are too slow. 7+ mana cards that don't win immediately have to at least kill off or cripple some people who were threatening to win this turn. 7 mana is the cutoff because it's around this point where people will be casting ridiculous stuff like Tooth and Nail, Biorhythym, Cyclonic Rift, or some infinite combo. Tapping out for Avenger of Zendikar and passing turn looks real dumb compared to what your opponents will be doing.
I don't care that your group has a banlist, games will end by degeneracy. 20 years of printing cards means that are too many devastaing combos and synergies out there to ban. Multiplayer isn't fair.
Your deck colors will be U/x if you want to win. This is non-negotiable. Someone forgot to tell Wizards that blue shouldn't be the best at nearly everything.
The best creatures: blue by a mile. Their Griselbrand costs 8 while yours costs 4 (Control Magic, Clone effects), 3 (Phyrexian Metamorph), 2 (Phantasmal Image, Dance of Many), or even 1 (Mask of the Mimic). In addition to always having the best creature on the board, Deep-Sea Kraken, Illsory Angel, and Chasm Skulker+Brainstorm annihilate the idea that the blue mage is vulnerable in the early game.
Blue also has the best removal: bounce. With things like Persist, Indestructible, Regenerating, and Undying, "destroy" effects are lackluster. And for many decks, creatures in the graveyard are even better than in hand because reanimation effects are mana efficient. Whelming Wave, Cyclonic Rift, and Displacement Wave (read: Pernicious Deed) don't even care about Hexproof/Shroud/Protection. No you don't care about your opponents reusing their Mulldrifter again, because the game is ending soon because of degeneracy.
The Multani problem
Big, dumb, non-haste creatures are the worst things you can do with your time. Multani, Maro-Sorcerer will routinely be 40/40 or larger and he is completely unplayable as an attacker. If you're comboing him with Pandemonium or something, that's different. But in multiplayer games, too much can happen between this turn and your next. Now take that logic farther: if a 40/40 shroud for 6 is unplayable, does creature size for non-haste, non-evasion creatures actually matter? No.
Yes Multani gets rid of a person who can't seem to field a creature. But in terms of actually winning the game, Multani isn't going to get you there over Tooth and Nail, Enter the Infinite, Insurrection, etc.
Here's a short, not all encompassing, list of easy multiplayer kill cards:
Most of these just require random dorks and standard good cards you're probably already using. Not a lot of complicated setup: just cast and win. Some, like Bloodchief Ascension, Insurrection, and Dragonstorm, require a little effort but are well worth it.
While someone plays Voltron with Thrun, the Last Troll, another player cast Waste Not and Windfall, drawing their deck, cast Exsanguinate for 10+, and put 30 power worth of 2/2's on the board. I can't emphasize it enough: big dumb creatures are an awful plan in multiplayer.
Expected mana over the course of the game
If a game goes to an average of 10 turns and you gain a mana every turn, you will have 1+2+3...+10= 55 mana for the entire game. Obviously you will sometimes have more due to things like Gaea's Cradle, but sometimes you will have less due to missed land drops. You will also not use all your mana every turn. So this 55 mana is probably closer to 45 mana.
When viewed in this light, you can ask yourself better questions:
Is spending 10 mana (~20% of the total mana for the game!) on Batterskull + equip really going to get me there?
Is spending 9 mana to draw 4 cards with Mind's Eye really better than Tidings? Or better than Stroke of Genius? Or Promise of Power or Harmonize?
Mana is the limiting factor of multiplayer and all cards should be evaluated accordingly. Raw power level of the cards is a distant second.
Why not go full combo?
Full combo decks are generally vulnerable in some way, and if they aren't then the table just solves that problem by piledriving you at the start of each game. Obvious combo pieces like Alluren or Mind Over Matter will tip off the table quite quickly.
Sleepers
Mask of the Mimic: You will see the same creatures over and over in multiplayer, meaning you can easily plan for this card to be a Clone for one mana. At the worst, you can duplicate your best creature. Or sacrifice your creture in response to removal or a steal effect. Wonderful utility and absurd power level for a one mana instant. Trading in your Sea Gate Oracle for a Primeval Titan is commonplace.
Vexing Sphinx: Creatures in multiplayer only last a round or three. Blue can have problems in the early game shoring up defense while looking for later plays. Since you can order the age counter and discard upkeeps, you can put a counter on first to draw an extra card before it dies due to not paying discard upkeep. You're basically renting this creature for two turns for 3 mana since you draw as many cards as you discard. It's fantastic card filtering and early defense for a color that loves both. Eats early planeswalkers too.
Illusory Angel: Like Plumeveil, but it attacks. Instead of Fog Bank, this guy can eat planeswalkers as well. The 3 mana investment is so low that it's easy to throw down early (T2: Sol Ring -> Angel) and obsoletes a lot of annoying early aggression.
Deep-Sea Kraken: 6/6 unblockable for 3. In blue. Dodges your T4 Whelming Wave or someone's Wrath of God. Good at thinning the field or quickly removing planeswalkers.
Magus of the Library: Better than Library of Alexandria. No joke. Library of Alexandria is like stone raining yourself since you can't tap it both for mana and cards at the same time. So anyone who puts out a library gets attacked immediately. They spend cards defending themselves, and presto: no 7 cards to draw with, or they eat 10+ damage and can be picked off. Magus is a mana dude with legit upside of drawing. Later he also chumps.
In a duel, you can afford to Stone Rain yourself, draw some cards, and catch up later. In multiplayer, you fall too far behind.
Panglacial Wurm: Fetchlands (and their Mirage block counterparts) can be reused to grab a 9/5 trample at instant speed. It turns a lot of dead ramp effects into something useful later on. It's also handy with Crop Rotation, Worldly Tutor, Mystical Tutor, and Vampiric Tutor. One in the deck is plenty. You can also bluff him in other games if you decide to take him out.
Hunted Horror, Hunted Phantasm, Hunted Troll, Hunted Dragon, Hunted Lammasu: "Group hug" done right. Criminally easy to pair with relevant mass removal to deal with the tokens (and more) after a few players have been knocked off: Toxic Deluge, Pyroclasm/Flamebreak/Slagstorm, Displacement Wave, Cyclonic Rift, etc.
Forbidden Orchard: Any color of mana you want, with zero drawback. All of the damage those 1/1's deal is less damage you'll have to deal.
Sheltering Ancient: Better than Tarmogoyf in multiplayer. Yes I hear you laughing. Goyf not only gets chumped, he doesn't create escalating problems for your opponents. A non-evasion creature is nearly useless in multiplayer (see: Multani, Maro-Sorcerer). You can choose to not pay the upkeep if you want, but creatures don't usually last more than a few rounds anyway.
Æther Gale: Blue Hex that also also hits planeswalkers, artifacts, and enchantments. WTF Wizards? You spend 5 mana to remove 30 mana worth of permanents.
Profaner of the Dead: Yet another one way board wipe for blue and great sacrifice outlet for stolen creatures. Plague Wind costs 9 for black, but Blue gets several options that cost 4, 5 (Æther Gale), or 7 (Cyclonic Rift, Scourge of Fleets). The amount of unfair multiplayer blue cards is shocking.
Mirrorweave: Blue Overrun, except way better because you can use it defensively. Immediately upgrade all your guys into Primeval Titans and attack. Can also be used politically to eliminate someone(s) from the game.
Blue removal in general: Rapid Hybridization, Pongify, Vapor Snag, Unsummon, Curfew, Reality Shift, Whelming Wave, Wash Out, Engulf the Shore, Evacuation, Crush of Tentacles, Scourge of Fleets, Æther Gale, Submerge, Devastation Tide, and Cyclonic Rift are all top quality. If you think you need to splash W or R for removal, don't. Blue has it already.
Removal is only as good as the target you're using it on. Bouncing a 2 mana guy with Unsummon is atrocious. Even Path to Exile on that guy is terrible. Bouncing a 4 mana guy that they are trying to equip a sword to is a 9-1 mana blowout.
Massacre Wurm: Often kills a player or two outright upon cast or after a board wipe. Cloning him is pretty great too.
Sangromancer, Geth's Grimoire: Both of these add tremendous value for very little investment. Watch at all the natural discard that happens in a game. People discard to spells (Thirst for Knowledge), because they over-draw, because they are mana-screwed, or because of forced discard by someone else. There will be some times where these cards aren't great, but the ceilings on them are fantastic.
Jace Beleren: For 3 mana, you draw 6 cards. That one extra card you give the table isn't of much consequence. This is the best Jace for pure card drawing.
Lambholt Elder: An easier to cast Leatherback Baloth isn't good enough. One that has Curiosity built in, is.
Krosan Tusker: One of the best draw spells, and it's not even blue!
Creeperhulk: A walking Overrun that is easier to use than Kamahl, Fist of Krosa. 20 life isn't a lot, and Overrun on T7 is often overkill for one player but not enough for two. Putting 4 mana to turn two mana dudes into 15 trampling power on T6 is usually enough because of fetchlands and other incidental damage. The body on Creeperhulk and mana requirements are so much better than Kamahl as well.
Careful Consideration: People talk about Fact or Fiction and somehow leave this one off of the list. It's basically a FoF but you get to choose exactly what you keep and where everything goes! The pseudo sorcery aspect of it can be a bonus or not, depending on the deck. It also says "draw", which interacts better with cards like Chasm Skulker / Abundance.
Dack's Duplicate: Best clone ever. All the degenerate crap your opponent wanted to do, you got to do a turn earlier. And for cheaper.
Moment's Peace: A Time Walk that you can discard. Fog effects are usually terrible, but sometimes you have to buy that one more turn or two to set up. This one makes the cut because you can discard it and not lose value.
Savor the Moment: At it's worst, it's Explore. At it's best it gives you great value from planeswalkers and effectively gives haste to the guys you cast. One example: Waste Not -> Windfall degeneracy -> Savor the Moment -> win.
Submerge: Someone will have a forest, don't worry. In response to your Primeval Titan search, let's put him on the top of the deck. GG NO RE.
Aven Mindcensor, Stranglehold, Shadow of Doubt: Obviously shutting down tutors is the main goal, but locking out fetchlands can't go unnoticed. Sneaky land destruction.
Price of Progress: In a high powered environment, this will kill off several players on turn 7-8. For two mana, it routinely will deal 30+ damage to the table.
High Market: Homeward Path before Homeward Path was printed. Stop people from stealing or copying your stuff for a very low investment. Primeval Titans in our group typically fetch a gating land (Simic Growth Chamber) and a High Market. Bounce the market, play it untapped to sacrifice the titan rather than eat 6 on your opponent's turn or have them kick Rite of Replication on it.
Underrated
Mana dorks: A player in our group has kept statistics on his games, and dorks > rocks in terms of winrate. And it's not close. Why? A random mana dude can chump, while a rock can't. Random dudes can also combo with things like Ogre Battledriver, Biorhythm, equipment, Craterhoof Behemoth, Gaea's Cradle, etc. A mana rock past turn 4 or 5 is usually a dead draw.
Stealing, Copying, and Reanimating: Only a sucker pays full price. Your Primeval Titan costs 6. Mine cost 2 with Phantasmal Image/Dance of Many/Animate Dead. Homeward Path might be a card, but so is Wasteland, Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter, and Tectonic Edge.
Delay, Memory Lapse, Remand, Swan Song, Stifle, Arcane Denial: These are all hard counterspells with zero drawbacks in multiplayer. The game will end before those Delay counters come off. The only reason you are playing with counters is to stop opposing haymakers. You can't hope to counter every threat at the table, so focus on the ones which make you lose immediately. If you use one of these on Primeval Titan, I will punch you through the internet.
Clogged board: In a degenerate meta, know what are good cards? Wall of Blossoms. Borderland Ranger. Sea Gate Oracle. Seriously. Just because it's a high powered format doesn't mean every card has to be banlist worthy. Hitting land drops while discouraging aggression is very valuable since you can't possibly have the answers to every problem at all times. It's simply not feasible to hold and cast enough counterspells to combat the table, so don't try. These cards can become a lot bigger with things like Craterhoof Behemoth or Mirrorweave. And they also don't get you killed to Reins of Power or Insurrection.
Consistency: In this post I've already mentioned a ton of seemingly terrible cards. Yet I win a plurality in our group. It's because my deck very rarely craps out on me. My Borderland Rangers keep the land coming and meat in front of me. I don't have useless Carrion Feeders or other combo pieces clogging my hand, just game winning cards or things I'm happy to cast naturally. My Vexing Sphinxes keep me safe while improving my draw. Unsummon/Pongify stopped a Kiki-Jiki combo. And then next turn I Natural Order into Craterhoof Behemoth and win.
The cards doing the heavy lifting are usually the mana and tutors, NOT the filler of the deck. You maximize your chances of winning by maximizing the times you play the game winning cards. My win condition of choice, Craterhoof, depends on having dudes on board and mana to cast him. Borderland Ranger does both of those things while something like Duskgrove Elder or Thrun, the Last Troll do not, even though they are objectively better cards.
Make them prove it: As Day[9] said, sometimes the best plan is just to go kill them. If someone is seemingly about to win next turn, tilt your guys sideways at them if you don't have the answer in hand. Often the table will pitch in and/or your opponent won't be able to seal the deal. This is my default plan when facing Mana Reflection/Mirari's Wake or a card drawer that takes mana (Mind's Eye), and it has worked out well for me.
Overrated
Equipment: Yes really. It's either incredibly low value (Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice) and/or mana intensive (Blade of Selves, Batterskull). One of them no one cares about, and the other one is asking to get blown out with a timely removal spell. In a game going to a maximum of 10 turns, congratulations on wasting two of them casting a creature and then trying to equip it.
The exception may be Sword of Feast and Famine because it is a mini-Prophet of Kruphix, but no one plays Bear Umbra so I don't understand the love this thing gets.
If you really want to make guys bigger, Xenagos, God of Revels, Wolfir Silverheart, Eldrazi Conscription (with or without Sovereigns of Lost Alara), and Increasing Savagery are your best bets because they are mana efficient. Then you realize that all those cards kinda suck.
Big dumb guys and big dumb boards: Multani, Eldrazi, Avenger of Zendikar, Vulturous Zombie, etc, all suck. Guess who is going to die to these cards? Answer: the guy who cast them. Reins of Power, Insurrection, Ray of Command/Threaten/Zealous Conscripts, Mass Mutiny, and Molten Primordial are all real cards that see play.
Defensive cards: The guy who keeps stats on his games also clearly shows that cards like Diamond Valley and Maze of Ith are terrible. In a vaccuum, they are fantastic cards. But in multiplayer, staving off death for a turn is not the same as winning the game. You know what has a higher winrate than Diamond Valley? High Market! Yes the mana is that important. He's tracked these stats over 1,000's of games.
Blocking: Chump blocking is fine if you're preventing lethal, but blocking to trade guys is very rarely good. By trading guys, you and an opponent are just falling down the stairs with your hands locked around each other's throats in a death embrace. By letting them through, you keep your options open for later. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Gaea's Cradle are big reasons not to trade. Having cards like Natural Order and Azami, Lady of Scrolls in the deck mean trading guys is a disaster.
You start with 20 life. An opponent might start attacking you around turn 4/5 with a 4+ power guy. That gives you until turn 7/8 to care. Just roll down like a man. A 3 power guy will take 7 turns to kill you unaided. That's why I recommend dudes like Vexing Sphinx. They discourage early aggression and nearly guarantee living to turns 8/9.
Lifegain: The first 10-20 life gained will yield the most impact as most decks are focused on dealing 20, 40, or infinite. So Extort effects and random lifegain attached to guys like Thragtusk is very valuable to temporarily get you out of range, but dedicated lifegain like Ivory Tower is going to be overkill (unless it's part of the plan, ie Tinker).
Traditional Ramp: Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Gaea's Cradle, Cloudpost, and Cabal Coffers have put most other ramp to shame. Rampant growth effects are so bad compared to Rofellos, Priest of Titania, Oracle of Mul Daya, or Sol Ring. Color fixing can be done with fetchlands. Because these lands are so strong, Wasteland effects are in high demand. But how much are you willing to sacrifice? Using Wasteland when you have 5 land total might be sabotaging your chances just as bad as you're doing to someone else.
Card Drawing: Recurring Insight is certainly powerful, but tapping out without affecting the board past turn 6 is a good way to end up dead. Mind's Eye is very expensive as well. Try to find effects like Future Sight (Magus of the Future), Chandra, Pyromaster, Necropotence, or Oracle of Mul Daya where you don't have to actually pay to cast the card AND pay to draw it.
TL;DR: Mana Efficiency > Card Quality for multiplayer games because all the degenerate ways to end the game obsolete higher casting cost cards.
Of course you're not sad to draw Wrath of God. It's a fantastic card! Non-blue sweepers are perfectly fine, and oftentimes better than blue ones (Hallowed Burial,Blasphemous Act, Decree of Pain). Part of what I tried, and failed, to achieve in the post was to break down highly outdated notions such as "blue has bad creatures" or "blue has bad removal".
Regarding vulnerability to sweepers, I generally don't care about them. Untap and throw down a Scute Mob and Managorger Hydra. You're basically threatening death again for someone next turn. Card advantage is trivial after 20 years of printing. Blue, green, and black all draw cards like crazy. Take your pick of ridiculous: Greater Good, Momentous Fall, Garruk, Primal Hunter, Life's Legacy, etc etc etc. I'd argue that at power draw, green > blue! Oracle of Mul Daya also nearly guarantees that you won't draw a land again. It effectively increases the spell density of your deck from 60% to 100%.
Card advantage in multiplayer is further diminished when there are dozens of cards that read "delete player from the game". Overwhelming Stampede, Mirrorweave, Mass Mutiny, Hatred, etc. Since it takes one card to kill a player (or the table), how many cards do you actually need?
... The absolutely most ultra-spike take I've ever seen on multiplayer, but a really good read.
Blue does have bad creatures. The fact that you can field Vexing Sphinx to block doesn't mean that other colors don't have vastly superior alternatives. White crushes Blue on the creature front with powerful + disruptive + cheap threats such as Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Containment Priest, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Aven Mindcensor, Grand Abolisher, Hushwing Gryff and a host of others. Rather than simply blocking they disrupt each opponent in a meaningful way. Moving on to a color like Green the ability to curve a mana dork into a Lotus Cobra/Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and Green Sun's Zenith/Survival of the Fittest/Defense of the Heart/etc. into whatever you need (disruption, removal, finishers) puts it head-and-shoulders above Blue. Moreover, Blue has 0 playable 1 drop creatures period. With respect to 2 drops that you can blindly run out on turn 2 in 100% of MP decks the only one that I'm happy to jam is Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and he's $100.00. The next closest thing is Merfolk Looter who is "fine" but unexciting. Snapcaster Mage isn't a 2 drop in 99% of MP decks. Gilded Drake, Phantasmal Image, not 2 drops. Thing in the Ice requires a spell-based archetype. Vedalken Mastermind can be fine in some decks but is horrendous in others. The list goes on and on. I agree with a lot of what you're saying but I'm in the complete opposite camp when it comes to Blue creatures. I love me some Snapcaster Mages, Sea Gate Oracles, Archaeomancers, Consecrated Sphinxs and a handful of other nonsense but I don't play Blue to jam creatures into play.
When it comes to removal you're overrating every non-Cyclonic Rift mass bounce spell. They're all "fine" but they're not on the same level as cards like Toxic Deluge or Pernicious Deed. I agree with you that mass bounce is criminally underrated which is why I keep pushing people to play with cards like Whelming Wave as "Wrath of Gods" but at the same time there's a limit to how far bounce can take you. Bounce will always and forever be a tempo play i.e. a temporary answer to a permanent threat. If you can combo-off/lock the board/beat in for the win then it's irrelevant but I've seen bad decks bounce the board multiple times and still easily lose. The people who curve Upheaval into Primeval Titan/Sylvan Primordial on the same turn are doing it right but the ones playing fair decks thinking that Evacuation will save them aren't.
Mystic Remora, Accumulated Knowledge + Intuition, Thirst for Knowledge, Rhystic Study, Trade Secrets, Fact or Fiction, Consecrated Sphinx, Recurring Insight, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time and more all disagree with that assessment. It's not even remotely debatable as far as I'm concerned. Blue is the unquestioned king of card draw and it's not close.
Drawing more cards = you acquire more resources = you get to assemble your combos more reliably than others and fire them off with Pact of Negation, Swan Song, Mana Drain and Force of Will backup. I agree with you when you said that all-in combo decks are bad because they lose to disruption. The easiest way to beat said disruption is to fill your deck with cards like Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Silence, Defense Grid and Force of Will to thwart it.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I just think that you're overrating some aspects of Blue (its creatures and removal) and underrating its oppressive draw engines and cheap/free counterspells. We both agree that Blue is, at worst, in the top 2 multiplayer colors (some would argue Green is king) and no one can deny that Blue/Green/Black are the "I want to win" colors. Blue's good creatures are very good (but also extremely expensive $ wise) but it generally leans on its oppressive card draw, reliable + cheap interaction and powerful combo kills to close games out. I agree that sometimes means jamming Hunted Phantasm as a 4/6 "Wall" (I've played that card countless times myself) who "buys you a friend" but at the same time I don't look at that card and think "Blue has better threats than Green/White."
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
The purpose of the game is to have fun.
Ask Prid3.
Sincerely,
Tez.
PS. Your post is mostly geared towards big tables it seems. Not all of us play those.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Excluding Aven Mindcensor, never in my life have I ever cared about these cards in a multiplayer setting.
The big thing is living long enough be the last one standing. Blue removal does that. Do other colors do it "better" in some respects? Sure, but who cares if it's already good enough to win?
Hence U/x to fill holes. Though I don't think it's necessary. Just playing Clone.dec ensures you always have the very best creature on board.
All strong cards for sure, but I think it's splitting hairs. I can draw 10 on T4 with Managorger Hydra and Hunter's Insight. Another 9 on T5 with Scute Mob and Life's Legacy. And some of those like AK+Intuition are "meh": that's Jace's Ingenuity. Thirst for Knowledge is better than cycling Krosan Tusker, but it's not a blowout.
Whether you draw 14 over two turns with Recurring Insight or 10 with Soul's Majesty, who cares? Both are a ton of cards.
My point is this: I'm an 80/20 guy. The vast majority of your wins will come from surviving long enough to playing the 100+ brutally overpowered cards and combos. The difference between Fact or Fiction and Harmonize is negligible in the face of slamming a Prophet of Kruphix on the board. What matters is that both are mana efficient enough to be in the conversation.
Would you be willing to post a few desk lists? Not too interested in the mana base other than the total quantity of lands, but the way you typically pair the draw/finishers/disruption would be helpful to see if it can benefit me (maybe others also) on how to make the best use of that.
By the by, your summary was a good read. We're on the opposite end of the fun stick in regards to our play styles, but reading up on everything you said was interesting.
Personally I disagree with a few points; namely that I find U to be only the forth best colour in big Magic multiplayer games. Best draw in the business, but other than that I find Blue very lacking. In my own experience/meta; Black, Green & White are the Kings. Most of my mates splash Blue & Red for a few choice cards, whereas myself am the only who purposefully plays mono-Red. I enjoy a good uphill battle. Few things challenge my skill at the table then mono-Red.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
My one point of disagreement: Does your deck have to have blue in it? Well it certainly helps in some avenues, but that is the beauty of this game. @rocketbrainsurgeon plays U/G and typically sticks with it and is successful. I would never build a deck that doesn't have B in it, that being said, it is typically my R spells that win me games.
A particular thorn in my side lately has been Elesh Norn, every color can be as good as blue, at what they do, if you use your limited mana in an intelligent way.
i never said it did im saying that the banlist being used and meta is important comments like "Your deck colors will be U/x if you want to win. " become fairly irrelevant if the group bans out most of the blue cards that are good for instance i play in many groups that do not use anything not legal in modern and one that literally bans all counter-spells.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
The part I completely disagree with is the "One size fits all approach" to player metas. Judging by the responses here and in other threads about different metas, the consensus is you build your Magic decks to perform in the metas that you play in. Banlists, house rules, infinite or not, removal heavy, removal light, combo, group size, $$$, etc all play huge roles in determining how I build and play my decks.
You can use the most efficient cards in the game, build a deck with crazy synergy and still easily lose. Flooding or screw at the wrong time can crush even the best decks. You can also become public enemy #1 for simply winning the game before, or for winning too many games.
I did personally enjoy your thoughts
Without some form of mass removal my own meta would be very hard to beat, as it is both creature and token heavy. Using an ol' Cyclonic Rift would slow things down, certainly, but it is a temporary measure at best. I prefer to simply remove those threats completely.
$$$ is also an important factor; including myself, there are some in my meta that don't mind dropping 50$ per card for a playset of something like Linvala, Keeper of Silence or 13$ per card for something like Tinker. Sometimes I just gotta go with the flow and out money some shmuck just so I can keep up - the last big purchase I can remember was a playset of Ensnaring Bridge and Gauntlet of Might, both of whom have proved amazing against the current meta.
Hell, I've been considering making an investment in Damnation in order to make my Black deck even more effective, though I think I'll stick with Toxic Deluge since it gets around things like Indestructible and Regenerate. Still, even as a consideration Damnation is close to 90$ per card. This is the kind of monetary nonsense I deal with at my meta sometimes.
It's an arms race in our meta as well. Staring down $1600 mana bases when you are bringing 24 basics to the party is rough. For the most part, everyone has some sort of dual lands, the rich play with revised duals/shocks/fetches the rest play with shocks/fetches/checklands, just not always full playsets.
This is why we built a multiplayer cube. It gives everyone an equal chance to play broken magic with the best possible mana bases.
It's not to say we don't still play FFA because we do, but we tend to play "themes". For example, someone will say, play your favorite Timmy deck. Out comes G/B Hydras, Mono U Quest for Ula's Temple, a nasty colorless Eldrazi deck, and G/r 12 Post. Or, let's go tribal. It becomes zombies/vampires/knights/goblins/elves/humans/angels/myr/tokens
My toughest and most competative decks often field 18-20 swamps plus some coffers, Nyktos and Urborg.
Money is a factor. But synergy more so.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Magic ain't cheap. Especially as I live in a small town; ordering cards in is about the best I can hope for. The closest FLGS is a half hour away and is pretty tiny. His selection of Magic stock is pretty limited, so his prices sometimes are... higher than average. Though, he did offer to sell me a Snapcaster Mage for sixty bucks, which is dirt cheap compared to other retailers. I said I'd think about it...
How frequently do you face turn 1-2 Limited Resources or turn 3-4 Armageddon/Ravages of War? Disruptive threats + MLD is extremely competitive. I'm also just plain happy to have a card like Grand Abolisher in play when I'm trying to combo off.
Clones.dec isn't actually competitive. In practice decks are typically designed with combos/synergies/key interactions in mind and your inability to capitalize on them until others do puts you at a disadvantage. Even when people are literally playing pure GoodStuffs.dec they still get to jam their stuff first and even if you create a tempo advantage for yourself by generating the same threat for reduced mana you're still playing a reactive game that's always one step behind. I'm not saying that Clones are bad or anything, I'm just saying that I've played a lot of competitive multiplayer (cMP) and the only time that I see Clones are when people are using them as part of combo kills. Phantasmal Image is the primary exception since it's the strongest Clone in cMP but in general I only see cards like Gigantoplasm if it's being paired with Reveillark or something.
I disagree that we're splitting hairs. I personally feel that there's a sizable gap in the card's overall power-levels. In multiplayer I can run out a Mystic Remora and Fastbond/Carpet of Flowers/Burgeoning/Exploration on turn 1-2 and know that my opponents are screwed. I'm going to draw more cards and produce more mana that a huge % of the table combined. For Green's "big" card draw to work you need a giant threat and sometimes to dodge removal. Given the choice of the playing the deck with Mystic Remora and Burgeoning or Managorger Hydra and Hunter's Insight I choose the former 100% of the time and it's not close.
I have a very similar mindset and I agree with most of what you're saying. That being said I don't agree that Blue has amazing creatures nor do I feel that Green can compete with Blue when it comes to card draw. Where we do share a common understanding is that "it doesn't matter as long as you win" but I still feel that it's important to be honest and realistic with your card/color evaluations. We both agree that Blue is a very wining color but I doubt that either of us play Blue because it has the best creatures. They're "good enough" to pass muster but that's fine too. We don't have to pretend that Blue has an amazing suite of creatures since we can sell people on its oppressive card draw, cheap/free interaction and degenerate combos/1-card win conditions. I do want to stress that we agree on many aspects of multiplayer but I've been playing cMP for a very long time so when I hear things like "Blue has the best creatures" or "those White creatures don't matter" strikes me as odd. Turn 1 Limited Resources turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a strong draw that beats a lot of strategies. Spirit of the Labyrinth is very, very, very good in degenerate Vintage metas filled with oppressive card draw. 2 mana "counter all draw spells" is a very real card. Grand Abolisher is nuts in combo/Stax since it denies any and all interaction. Aven Mindcensor neutering tutors/fetches is amazing. Containment Priest preventing all unfair "cheat" spells is fantastic. I find it very hard to believe that you're building competitive decks that don't care about these kinds of effects, especially when they're supported with MLD and/or Stax effects.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold