I used to think that Indestructible was boss, then I started to realize how popular withering, exiling and bouncing are at the table. In my experience Indestructible is nice, but it's a Red Flag Event and smart opponents will go after you. On the other hand, Vigilance lets you attack without worrying about sacrificing necessary defensive options, and looks a hell of a lot more innocent. Still, IdoenjoyIndestructibleattimes.
First:
Behomoth and Embodiment aren't for me. I would rather have an indestructible guy.
I'd likely play 0-1 of the sliver in a sliver deck.
Intangible Virtue reminds me of the Baron discussion at the bottom of the first page. It is does two things and it does them very well. Still, an imaginary +1/+1 indestructible to all tokens enchantment for W1 sounds sweet.
Vorapede is quite attractive. While a trample + vigilant guy would be all right, I think the undying that puts it over the top.
Cairn Wanderer is fun. I wouldn't be interested in him if all he had, regularly, was vigilance.
Finally, Serra Angel is just okay. Myriad is what sells the herald for me.
As to the amount of indestructible hate, doesn't that show its worth? If you have so much hate at your table, I can definitely see why you don't want to pay the premium for indestructible. That is another reason to believe that indestructible is pretty good - WoTC makes it mana costly.
Thanks for the thoughts. I think my personal top three is now indestructible, deathtouch, vigilance.
Aye mate, always happy to talk shop! Like I said; I use to be a big fan of Indestructible, I still like it - but I'd rate it a bar lower than Vigilance against my own meta. On its own its a beast, you can never really go wrong with it on the table; I just prefer Vigilance for the strategic plays.
I don't think there's any value of X where I'd be tempted to choose something other than indestructible.
In a vacuum, as a turn X play against an empty board, sure. But with the right support cards or against the right table, it's easy to see situations where deathtouch is the right choice. If you can only swing 2-3 on it and one of your opponents has a Terra Stomper, I'd much rather go with the deathtouch. Same if I'm playing it out into Viridian Longbow or Sword of Vengeance or Warstorm Surge or Arcbond.
I might be a little bit biased based on my meta where people are more likely to play exile-based removal than destruction.
While Xyx's statement definitely contains hyperbole, it is telling that Deathtouch needs support or an appropriate board whereas, as you say, "in a vacuum" Indestructible is solid.
As I have mentioned before, doesn't the fact that people play exile-based removal show the power of indestructible?
It is warping your metagame. Seems pretty powerful. Also, I am wondering what they are running. Care to share the hits? I assume Swords to Plowshares and Final Judgment/Descend Upon the Sinful?
Now, if your metagame is so warped, I can see why indestructible isn't attractive! Not playing indestructible makes sense, perhaps, because you are not paying a premium for your creatures, but your opponents are likely paying a premium for their removal! However, two things: Deathtouchers die to all kinds of removal, including the exile-based stuff, and, so, I wonder why they aren't getting removed before people attack with the Stomper or abuse the equipment, enchantment, or spell?
To be honest, my playgroups don't run a ton of removal overall. When they do, the most common form of it is things like Oblivion Ring. Board wipes are not unheard of, but they're an uncommon enough factor that it's more effective to build around being able to recover effectively or not having to overextend rather than having a few things stay on the table.
Most of the things my playgroup does falls into a couple of categories:
- Go big and/or go wide. Example strategies are things like landfall aggro, Intangible Virtue tokens, or Bloodline Keeper. If there are individual big threats, they usually have evasion, and there are more (and more efficiently costed) deathtouch creatures that can deal with, say, flying than there are indestructible creatures that can. If someone has 2-3 midrangey creatures and is looking for someone to swing at, the prospect of losing one of them makes for a better rattlesnake than having one run into a chump blocker that doesn't die.
- Ignore combat entirely. There's a relatively low amount of direct "I win" combo in my meta, but there are a few defensive builds that seek to win outside of combat (ranging from Tainted Remedy/Wall of Shards to Solitary Confinement pillowfort). Against the ones that keep you from attacking them at all, it doesn't matter what keyword your creature has. Against the more wall-focused builds, deathtouch puts more pressure on them than indestructible does.
Recursion is also fairly common. If I had to put a finger on why my meta tends to be exile focused, it's probably more because it keeps people from being able to get their stuff back than because it dodges indestructible.
So, warped meta? Maybe. Is indestructible stronger? Probably, but not always, is the point I was getting at. I personally find deathtouch to be more useful more often.
(Note, a lot of this is dependent on the size of the creature. Deathtouch is a good defensive keyword and a mediocre offensive one, therefore better on small creatures. If I'm playing Multimorph for 1, it's because I need a blocker right now and I'll choose deathtouch most of the time, unless I specifically need to defend against single threats from multiple opponents. If I'm playing Multimorph for 7, not choosing indestructible would be insanity.)
Board wipes are not unheard of, but they're an uncommon enough factor that it's more effective to build around being able to recover effectively or not having to overextend rather than having a few things stay on the table.
So much comes down to playgroup!
This comment reminded me of an ability we haven't discussed: haste!
My playgroup is lousy with boardwipes and I am continually surprised how well haste plays. I don't think it is top tier or anything, but I do think it is underestimated. Heck, no one thought to even mention it!
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Beacon Behemoth, Intangible Virtue, Synchronous Sliver, Embodiment of Insight, Vorapede, Cairn Wanderer, Herald of the Host.
I used to think that Indestructible was boss, then I started to realize how popular withering, exiling and bouncing are at the table. In my experience Indestructible is nice, but it's a Red Flag Event and smart opponents will go after you. On the other hand, Vigilance lets you attack without worrying about sacrificing necessary defensive options, and looks a hell of a lot more innocent. Still, I do enjoy Indestructible at times.
Oh yes, I do.
Behomoth and Embodiment aren't for me. I would rather have an indestructible guy.
I'd likely play 0-1 of the sliver in a sliver deck.
Intangible Virtue reminds me of the Baron discussion at the bottom of the first page. It is does two things and it does them very well. Still, an imaginary +1/+1 indestructible to all tokens enchantment for W1 sounds sweet.
Vorapede is quite attractive. While a trample + vigilant guy would be all right, I think the undying that puts it over the top.
Cairn Wanderer is fun. I wouldn't be interested in him if all he had, regularly, was vigilance.
Finally, Serra Angel is just okay. Myriad is what sells the herald for me.
As to the amount of indestructible hate, doesn't that show its worth? If you have so much hate at your table, I can definitely see why you don't want to pay the premium for indestructible. That is another reason to believe that indestructible is pretty good - WoTC makes it mana costly.
Thanks for the thoughts. I think my personal top three is now indestructible, deathtouch, vigilance.
I might be a little bit biased based on my meta where people are more likely to play exile-based removal than destruction.
As I have mentioned before, doesn't the fact that people play exile-based removal show the power of indestructible?
It is warping your metagame. Seems pretty powerful. Also, I am wondering what they are running. Care to share the hits? I assume Swords to Plowshares and Final Judgment/Descend Upon the Sinful?
Now, if your metagame is so warped, I can see why indestructible isn't attractive! Not playing indestructible makes sense, perhaps, because you are not paying a premium for your creatures, but your opponents are likely paying a premium for their removal! However, two things: Deathtouchers die to all kinds of removal, including the exile-based stuff, and, so, I wonder why they aren't getting removed before people attack with the Stomper or abuse the equipment, enchantment, or spell?
Most of the things my playgroup does falls into a couple of categories:
- Go big and/or go wide. Example strategies are things like landfall aggro, Intangible Virtue tokens, or Bloodline Keeper. If there are individual big threats, they usually have evasion, and there are more (and more efficiently costed) deathtouch creatures that can deal with, say, flying than there are indestructible creatures that can. If someone has 2-3 midrangey creatures and is looking for someone to swing at, the prospect of losing one of them makes for a better rattlesnake than having one run into a chump blocker that doesn't die.
- Ignore combat entirely. There's a relatively low amount of direct "I win" combo in my meta, but there are a few defensive builds that seek to win outside of combat (ranging from Tainted Remedy/Wall of Shards to Solitary Confinement pillowfort). Against the ones that keep you from attacking them at all, it doesn't matter what keyword your creature has. Against the more wall-focused builds, deathtouch puts more pressure on them than indestructible does.
Recursion is also fairly common. If I had to put a finger on why my meta tends to be exile focused, it's probably more because it keeps people from being able to get their stuff back than because it dodges indestructible.
So, warped meta? Maybe. Is indestructible stronger? Probably, but not always, is the point I was getting at. I personally find deathtouch to be more useful more often.
(Note, a lot of this is dependent on the size of the creature. Deathtouch is a good defensive keyword and a mediocre offensive one, therefore better on small creatures. If I'm playing Multimorph for 1, it's because I need a blocker right now and I'll choose deathtouch most of the time, unless I specifically need to defend against single threats from multiple opponents. If I'm playing Multimorph for 7, not choosing indestructible would be insanity.)
So much comes down to playgroup!
This comment reminded me of an ability we haven't discussed: haste!
My playgroup is lousy with boardwipes and I am continually surprised how well haste plays. I don't think it is top tier or anything, but I do think it is underestimated. Heck, no one thought to even mention it!