All ideas based upon a "fair" environment where creatures matter, the game ends after 20ish turns, all players are relevant and have a chance, and defense and offense are necessary. Also, I assume no collusion and best doesn't assume others aren't good or even better in some situations.
Indestructible - I rate this highly as sweepers and creature "mass" is important in my games. This is my current vote.
Vigilance - I rate this very highly because being able to attack and help end the game while keeping defense is important. Defense is very important in my games. However, creatures are fragile so I lean towards Indestructible.
Deathtouch - While deathtouch plus flying/reach is more likely to be played by me (or first strike), the ability is good. Also, great with pingers and solid with trample. Along with this, sometimes they don't want to block, so it is pseudo-evasion in the early game. Still, on it's lonesome not that excellent. I am not a fan of Typhoid Rats, for example.
Protection: Red - Some protections are better than others. Red is the cream of the crop because of Earthquake et. al.
Lifelink - In a way this is defense. It allows attack while providing a buffer. Unfortunately, unless you are suiting the creature up, you are still probably losing more than gaining. Still, pretty good.
Flying - Now for attacking! This beats unblockable (and Shadow) for me, because, again, it can be useful in blocking. I rate blocking and evasion higher than simply evasion.
Protection: Black and Protection: White - I think black is slightly worse (because of -X/-X effects but they are both before Trample and it is close. White has less relevant spot removal over all. However, both Black and White are have premium spot removal. While spot removal isn't that great, which is why I think people are overrating Hexproof, it can be relevant - especially against people's game-enders. So, protection is nice.
Trample - Not as good evasion as flying. I like it combined with deathtouch, however, and it kinda-sorta removal. Sometimes you want them to block. Unless your Unblockable can kill them, putting them in a position to sacrifice material can be good. Still, trample is lackluster.
Protection: Blue and Protection: Green - These are fine, but not as sought after. And there aren't many cards printed with these protections. Blue is better because of Control Magic effects and because Trample is primary in Green, so your prot. Green critter isn't going to be the super blocker you wished for, though it will soak up a couple of points.
Unblockable - Simple evasion is just so-so. Sometimes you need a way to kill people and this or Shadow gets there. Still, I would want it coupled with either the first or last ability on my list.
Reach - While some good cards have this, I never seek it. It is just so much worse than flying.
First Strike / Double Strike - These should likely be split. While First Strike is fine, I never go out of my way to field it. It is all right with the aforementioned Deathtouch. Double Strike can be cool because of a possiblity of solid damage output. The vast majority of creatures with it, however, aren't worth it. Plus, it has no more defensive capability than First Strike which, again, is fine, but not great.
Hexproof - Experienced groups have some spot removal. However, sweepers are more prevalent for obvious reason. So, Hexproof + evasion, Hexproof + Industrctible, and so on is more important than simply Hexproof. It isn't bad, it just is overrated for keeping creatures alive.
Indestructible for me too.
The only problem with this keyword is that very few creatures have it, and it's rare the creature has anything else useful going for it unless you get up to very large mana costs. ie Blightsteel Colossus. So you have to skew the deck around cheating these types into play.
I place trample after flying in my list. Barely, though.
Protection, on the other hand, is pretty sweet. It is a little like her proof, a little blocking ability, a little evasion. However, it can be hit or miss. I would place protection red after death touch, black and white after flying, and blue and green after trample.
In general, I'd say flying is the best, followed by indestructibility/hexproof. Flying doesn't get stuffed by a bunch of ground nerds, but the other two make them hard to kill.
If there were an enchantment that gave all my creatures a keyword ability of my choice, I figure I'd choose indestructible 9/10 times.
Agreed.
Undying and annihilator and myriad are also pretty good.
These are triggered. Still worth looking at. Perhaps another thread?
My take on them:
Undying is up there with Indestructible because of all the shenanigans you can do with it besides making the creatures resilient. Obviously, pretty easy to do broken tricks with Undying and, even easier?, Persist.
Annihilator is around flying in my estimation. It paints a bit of a target on you, and the creatures it goes on are largely game-enders. The Annihilator does allow them to take out the attacked player even if they aren't killed in a single attack, however.
Myriad is better than trample, but attacking abilities aren't as good as defensive ones, generally.
Interestingly, Indestructible and Vigilance continue to be neck-and-neck in the poll.
Good points being made - I did forget quite a few abilities when I was making the poll so forgive me.
I guess I didn't really consider indestructible too much simply because - like Slave said - its generally paired with a high costed, low power creatures.
I'm surprised people aren't rating unblockable very high - I've always found it pretty useful in my meta where there can be a lot of semi-stalematey board states where everyone is waiting for a board wipe or something.
Good points being made - I did forget quite a few abilities when I was making the poll so forgive me.
I guess I didn't really consider indestructible too much simply because - like Slave said - its generally paired with a high costed, low power creatures.
I'm surprised people aren't rating unblockable very high - I've always found it pretty useful in my meta where there can be a lot of semi-stalematey board states where everyone is waiting for a board wipe or something.
What are you playing for its unblockabiliy? I get playing things like Thassa, God of the Sea, Whispersilk Cloak, or Rogue's Passage, but I think they prove how lackluster the ability is. People play these cards knowing that unblockable is a useful rider: Thassa for scry, Whispersilk for Shroud [and it really isn't great], and the Passage to get more use out of your lands and mise some games. I have played the first and the last outside of limited, but, and maybe I am underating it, I have never played Whispersilk outside of limited, even though it seems solid.
I'm a deathtouch man myself. Really, really good on early creatures like Baleful Strix, Vampire Nighthawk and Glissa, the Traitor. People immediately play the "look elsewhere" game in my meta, and it leaves me free to durdle away.
I must admit to irrational loves of vigilance and trample, too, though.
Good points being made - I did forget quite a few abilities when I was making the poll so forgive me.
I guess I didn't really consider indestructible too much simply because - like Slave said - its generally paired with a high costed, low power creatures.
I'm surprised people aren't rating unblockable very high - I've always found it pretty useful in my meta where there can be a lot of semi-stalematey board states where everyone is waiting for a board wipe or something.
What are you playing for its unblockabiliy? I get playing things like Thassa, God of the Sea, Whispersilk Cloak, or Rogue's Passage, but I think they prove how lackluster the ability is. People play these cards knowing that unblockable is a useful rider: Thassa for scry, Whispersilk for Shroud [and it really isn't great], and the Passage to get more use out of your lands and mise some games. I have played the first and the last outside of limited, but, and maybe I am underating it, I have never played Whispersilk outside of limited, even though it seems solid.
Probably Aetherling is my favourite unblockable go-to creature - but now that you mention it I don't really use many other unblockables - at least ones off the top of my head.
I'm a deathtouch man myself. Really, really good on early creatures like Baleful Strix, Vampire Nighthawk and Glissa, the Traitor. People immediately play the "look elsewhere" game in my meta, and it leaves me free to durdle away.
I must admit to irrational loves of vigilance and trample, too, though.
Those are great cards. However, you should reconsider. The first two fly, and have other awesome and relevant text, and the second has first strike, along with an amazing recursion ability. Furthermore, they are very efficient. It is not Deathtouch, on its own, that you like!
Cheating just a little, both Predator Ooze and Fleecemane Lion are playable for the Indestructible text. If they just received +1/+1 counters they would have quickly been forgotten. Shield of the Oversoul also comes to mind as a powerful, relevant card that is mostly played for the Indestructibility.
Name any deathtouch creature that would be worse if it had indestructible instead. Name any indestructible creature that would be better if it had deathtouch instead.
I am unsure what the angle is here. It fundamentally changes the function and usefulness of the cards. A simple switch might not truly be convincing.
I don't rate Deathtouch as highly as I do indestructible, but I do think the swap on some cards would make them worse. Many of the cheap deathtouchers are played as pseudo-removal. Making them indestructible instead makes them into walls. Walls, generally, are bad because people can attack into them without loss. I run them from time to time, but I do believe that Bl00m's list would all be worse if they were indestructible instead of deathtouchers. Of course, I still think they would be playable because they are the cream of the crop. However, Acidic Slime, Deadly Recluse, and Deathmist Raptor would become marginal, unplayable (which it nearly already is) upon reflection I think he would be like Darksteel Myr - playable, and no longer good, respectively.
So, your first idea shows that deathtouch is better than indestructible, generally, on catch-all, utility, blocker-type creatures. A toss-up?
The other switch is where your idea shines, if you are looking to illuminate the strength of indestructible. While Darksteel Colossus and Blightsteel Colossus are worse, they aren't significantly so, since deathtouch + trample is quite good, especially with Blightsteel. Obviously, however, the vast majority just become worse. Fat creatures, without trample, gain very little from deathtouch. Even the smaller creatures becomes forgettable (Predator Ooze for example). It does make me want a G/B creature like Dauntless Escort that grants Deathtouch. Certainly the escort is already only moderately playable, but self-sacrifice in those colors is better and it would be a neat effect to have.
Thanks for the exercise. I still think Indestructible is the best, but now think I have my top two and three in the wrong order. Which is funny since the poll consensus seems to lead towards Vigilance. I wonder if that is because of theory crafting? What creatures are getting played just for their Vigilance?
And they are neck and neck again. Anyone have any thoughts on why Vigilance should be tops? I am having difficulty recalling a creature played only for Vigilance.
Is Knight Exemplar comparable to Death Baron? If there were more flying skeletons and zombies maybe I would think different, but out of "all your creatures but this one are buffed and indestructible" vs "all your creatures but this one are buffed and have deathtouch" I choose the former while recognizing the power of the latter. Still, this might be a case that shows how close the two abilities are in power.
well one flying skeleton holds a special place in my heart Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon. But for me if i had to run vigilance id prefer a way to dish out mass vigilance to all my creatures rather then one. Id love the feel of security among the ranks. also id say Knight exemplar is fairly comparable to Death baron, I've seen both sides played to maximum efficiency if no ones meta is to board wipe heavy Indestructible as you all know can be devastating.
I'm a deathtouch man myself. Really, really good on early creatures like Baleful Strix, Vampire Nighthawk and Glissa, the Traitor. People immediately play the "look elsewhere" game in my meta, and it leaves me free to durdle away.
I must admit to irrational loves of vigilance and trample, too, though.
Those are great cards. However, you should reconsider. The first two fly, and have other awesome and relevant text, and the second has first strike, along with an amazing recursion ability. Furthermore, they are very efficient. It is not Deathtouch, on its own, that you like!
Haha! You're right - indestructible is awesome too, and it's certainly up there on my list.
Probably right in that a lot of the deathtouchers I am fond of see that ability paired up with something else... but it's one of those abilities that seems to work beautifully in tandem with others. I have a huge mancrush on creatures that have deathtouch paired with first strike (which is a short list... pretty sure it's only Glissa + Voracious Cobra... and, strictly speaking, the Cobra doesn't have deathtouch!). If they ever print one with deathtouch and double strike... well, you know where I'll be.
Indestructible is powerful in its own right, but a crafty player with exiling, counter, wither and enchantments can easily deal with an Indestructible. The same, yes, could very easily be said for a creature with Vigilance, but between the two I would take Vigilance myself. Being able to attack/block is a potent strategy in big multiplayer games, one that I would much rather have then a creature with simple Indestructible.
Indestructible is powerful in its own right, but a crafty player with exiling, counter, wither and enchantments can easily deal with an Indestructible. The same, yes, could very easily be said for a creature with Vigilance, but between the two I would take Vigilance myself. Being able to attack/block is a potent strategy in big multiplayer games, one that I would much rather have then a creature with simple Indestructible.
I could quibble about "easily" or "simple," but instead I will ask: what creatures do you play for their vigilance? Specifically, not what creatures do you play that happen to have vigilance, though I would also love to know them, but what creatures do you play because of the vigilance in particular. I rate vigilance pretty highly, but I am having trouble thinking of creatures that I play because of it. It is the cherry on top, not the dessert itself, is what I am coming to realize. I think I rated it too highly.
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Flying is a close second though as in my meta people don't really counter it too well.
My personal favorite, death touch.
I hate playing against double strike the most.
Indestructible - I rate this highly as sweepers and creature "mass" is important in my games. This is my current vote.
Vigilance - I rate this very highly because being able to attack and help end the game while keeping defense is important. Defense is very important in my games. However, creatures are fragile so I lean towards Indestructible.
Deathtouch - While deathtouch plus flying/reach is more likely to be played by me (or first strike), the ability is good. Also, great with pingers and solid with trample. Along with this, sometimes they don't want to block, so it is pseudo-evasion in the early game. Still, on it's lonesome not that excellent. I am not a fan of Typhoid Rats, for example.
Protection: Red - Some protections are better than others. Red is the cream of the crop because of Earthquake et. al.
Lifelink - In a way this is defense. It allows attack while providing a buffer. Unfortunately, unless you are suiting the creature up, you are still probably losing more than gaining. Still, pretty good.
Flying - Now for attacking! This beats unblockable (and Shadow) for me, because, again, it can be useful in blocking. I rate blocking and evasion higher than simply evasion.
Protection: Black and Protection: White - I think black is slightly worse (because of -X/-X effects but they are both before Trample and it is close. White has less relevant spot removal over all. However, both Black and White are have premium spot removal. While spot removal isn't that great, which is why I think people are overrating Hexproof, it can be relevant - especially against people's game-enders. So, protection is nice.
Trample - Not as good evasion as flying. I like it combined with deathtouch, however, and it kinda-sorta removal. Sometimes you want them to block. Unless your Unblockable can kill them, putting them in a position to sacrifice material can be good. Still, trample is lackluster.
Protection: Blue and Protection: Green - These are fine, but not as sought after. And there aren't many cards printed with these protections. Blue is better because of Control Magic effects and because Trample is primary in Green, so your prot. Green critter isn't going to be the super blocker you wished for, though it will soak up a couple of points.
Unblockable - Simple evasion is just so-so. Sometimes you need a way to kill people and this or Shadow gets there. Still, I would want it coupled with either the first or last ability on my list.
Reach - While some good cards have this, I never seek it. It is just so much worse than flying.
First Strike / Double Strike - These should likely be split. While First Strike is fine, I never go out of my way to field it. It is all right with the aforementioned Deathtouch. Double Strike can be cool because of a possiblity of solid damage output. The vast majority of creatures with it, however, aren't worth it. Plus, it has no more defensive capability than First Strike which, again, is fine, but not great.
Hexproof - Experienced groups have some spot removal. However, sweepers are more prevalent for obvious reason. So, Hexproof + evasion, Hexproof + Industrctible, and so on is more important than simply Hexproof. It isn't bad, it just is overrated for keeping creatures alive.
[Edit: updated list.]
+1 from me.
The only problem with this keyword is that very few creatures have it, and it's rare the creature has anything else useful going for it unless you get up to very large mana costs. ie Blightsteel Colossus. So you have to skew the deck around cheating these types into play.
Question;
No trample? Wha?
Protection, on the other hand, is pretty sweet. It is a little like her proof, a little blocking ability, a little evasion. However, it can be hit or miss. I would place protection red after death touch, black and white after flying, and blue and green after trample.
Agreed.
These are triggered. Still worth looking at. Perhaps another thread?
My take on them:
Undying is up there with Indestructible because of all the shenanigans you can do with it besides making the creatures resilient. Obviously, pretty easy to do broken tricks with Undying and, even easier?, Persist.
Annihilator is around flying in my estimation. It paints a bit of a target on you, and the creatures it goes on are largely game-enders. The Annihilator does allow them to take out the attacked player even if they aren't killed in a single attack, however.
Myriad is better than trample, but attacking abilities aren't as good as defensive ones, generally.
Interestingly, Indestructible and Vigilance continue to be neck-and-neck in the poll.
I guess I didn't really consider indestructible too much simply because - like Slave said - its generally paired with a high costed, low power creatures.
I'm surprised people aren't rating unblockable very high - I've always found it pretty useful in my meta where there can be a lot of semi-stalematey board states where everyone is waiting for a board wipe or something.
What are you playing for its unblockabiliy? I get playing things like Thassa, God of the Sea, Whispersilk Cloak, or Rogue's Passage, but I think they prove how lackluster the ability is. People play these cards knowing that unblockable is a useful rider: Thassa for scry, Whispersilk for Shroud [and it really isn't great], and the Passage to get more use out of your lands and mise some games. I have played the first and the last outside of limited, but, and maybe I am underating it, I have never played Whispersilk outside of limited, even though it seems solid.
I must admit to irrational loves of vigilance and trample, too, though.
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Probably Aetherling is my favourite unblockable go-to creature - but now that you mention it I don't really use many other unblockables - at least ones off the top of my head.
However, he isn't really that great of a finisher in multiplayer. He certainly is worse in multiplayer than in duel.
I don't suppose that this means you will reconsider your vote and tie up the Vigilance vs. Indestructible votes again?
Those are great cards. However, you should reconsider. The first two fly, and have other awesome and relevant text, and the second has first strike, along with an amazing recursion ability. Furthermore, they are very efficient. It is not Deathtouch, on its own, that you like!
Darksteel Ingot [I know, not a creature!], Darksteel Myr, Phylactery Lich may not be platinum hits, but are certainly solid.
Cheating just a little, both Predator Ooze and Fleecemane Lion are playable for the Indestructible text. If they just received +1/+1 counters they would have quickly been forgotten. Shield of the Oversoul also comes to mind as a powerful, relevant card that is mostly played for the Indestructibility.
That is without using swiss-army knife examples like the Deathtouch examples: Ormendahl, Profane Prince, Darksteel Colossus, Blightsteel Colossus, Soul of New Phyrexia, Stuffy Doll, Dauntless Escort, and the various Gods (e.g. Erebos, God of the Dead).
Also, I do agree that Deathtouch is great, just not as great as Indestructible!
I am unsure what the angle is here. It fundamentally changes the function and usefulness of the cards. A simple switch might not truly be convincing.
I don't rate Deathtouch as highly as I do indestructible, but I do think the swap on some cards would make them worse. Many of the cheap deathtouchers are played as pseudo-removal. Making them indestructible instead makes them into walls. Walls, generally, are bad because people can attack into them without loss. I run them from time to time, but I do believe that Bl00m's list would all be worse if they were indestructible instead of deathtouchers. Of course, I still think they would be playable because they are the cream of the crop. However, Acidic Slime, Deadly Recluse, and Deathmist Raptor would become marginal,
unplayable (which it nearly already is)upon reflection I think he would be like Darksteel Myr - playable, and no longer good, respectively.So, your first idea shows that deathtouch is better than indestructible, generally, on catch-all, utility, blocker-type creatures. A toss-up?
The other switch is where your idea shines, if you are looking to illuminate the strength of indestructible. While Darksteel Colossus and Blightsteel Colossus are worse, they aren't significantly so, since deathtouch + trample is quite good, especially with Blightsteel. Obviously, however, the vast majority just become worse. Fat creatures, without trample, gain very little from deathtouch. Even the smaller creatures becomes forgettable (Predator Ooze for example). It does make me want a G/B creature like Dauntless Escort that grants Deathtouch. Certainly the escort is already only moderately playable, but self-sacrifice in those colors is better and it would be a neat effect to have.
Thanks for the exercise. I still think Indestructible is the best, but now think I have my top two and three in the wrong order. Which is funny since the poll consensus seems to lead towards Vigilance. I wonder if that is because of theory crafting? What creatures are getting played just for their Vigilance?
10 drops that die to Doom Blade at no benefit are horrifically unplayable. They would be many orders of magnitude weaker.
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Is Knight Exemplar comparable to Death Baron? If there were more flying skeletons and zombies maybe I would think different, but out of "all your creatures but this one are buffed and indestructible" vs "all your creatures but this one are buffed and have deathtouch" I choose the former while recognizing the power of the latter. Still, this might be a case that shows how close the two abilities are in power.
Haha! You're right - indestructible is awesome too, and it's certainly up there on my list.
Probably right in that a lot of the deathtouchers I am fond of see that ability paired up with something else... but it's one of those abilities that seems to work beautifully in tandem with others. I have a huge mancrush on creatures that have deathtouch paired with first strike (which is a short list... pretty sure it's only Glissa + Voracious Cobra... and, strictly speaking, the Cobra doesn't have deathtouch!). If they ever print one with deathtouch and double strike... well, you know where I'll be.
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I could quibble about "easily" or "simple," but instead I will ask: what creatures do you play for their vigilance? Specifically, not what creatures do you play that happen to have vigilance, though I would also love to know them, but what creatures do you play because of the vigilance in particular. I rate vigilance pretty highly, but I am having trouble thinking of creatures that I play because of it. It is the cherry on top, not the dessert itself, is what I am coming to realize. I think I rated it too highly.