So, I've finally got a hold of a playset of Soulfire Grand Master, and I've also got playsets of Boros Reckoner, Spitemare, Blasphemous Act and Swans of Bryn Argoll ready to roll... what's the best list of 60 for this archetype? I've seen quite a few variations floating about. I'd probably go with something like the following off the bat... does this seem good?
One thing I can tell you from lots of experience with the deck is that with Swans as your draw engine, you're going to want to use Rolling Earthquake instead of Earthquake. It really is so much better.
I run 8 blanket dmg spells in my build, and it's been plenty. With Swans I'm typically decking myself multiple times a games, and recycling with Elixir of Immortality, so it plays like it has way more than 8. Generally speaking, you'll be able to cast one, draw a bunch, and then discard to keep at least another blanket burn, another SGM and/or Reckoner. I also have a couple of non damage mass removal spells in there to give me a variety of answers to a variety of threats.
Also, I can tell you that, in the non-Repercussion list, cards like Assemble the Legion are straight gas in this deck. Luminarch Ascension as well. Make B. Acts castable on the cheap, even when your opponents run out of threats.
You may end up shaving threats as well for things like enchant removal. Myself, I've gone down to 3 Reckoners and 3 SFG. You will just play around with numbers until the deck has the right feel for you, but that's where I arrived.
One thing I can tell you from lots of experience with the deck is that with Swans as your draw engine, you're going to want to use Rolling Earthquake instead of Earthquake. It really is so much better.
Awww man, so true. Just when I thought I'd broken the back of the expensive cards for this deck...
Otherwise, great points, both of you.
Believe it or not, there is not a single version of this archetype running around in my meta. I've seen Boros Reckoner and Blasphemous Act a few times, but never in tandem. Whether that is because none of the other guys in my meta have even thought about this archetype before, or they have and just have been too gentlemanly to put it together, I dunno. But I intend on rocking it fairly hard... T2 Soulfire, T3 Reckoner, T4 B. Act sounds not only possible but horrid.
And top idea with Luminarch Ascension in particular. I'm pretty sure I have three copies floating ATM... looks like we're back onboard the Luminarch train, folks...
EDIT: Oh, and yeah, this is definitely the Not-Repercussion build. Otherwise I'd be running Forbidden Orchards and Varchild's War-Riders like they were hot.
Maybe one day... I do love that card, but getting four of them is not easy these days. They need to reprint that thing like fury...
One thing I can tell you from lots of experience with the deck is that with Swans as your draw engine, you're going to want to use Rolling Earthquake instead of Earthquake. It really is so much better.
Awww man, so true. Just when I thought I'd broken the back of the expensive cards for this deck...
They reprinted that bad boy in From the Vault: Annihilation. It's about $4 for the reprint. Not free like Earthquake is, but it's no longer 1 trillion dollars.
I don't agree that Fiery Confluence is weak. I think that all 3 modes are very relevant in this type of deck and that people underestimate the flexibility that it brings to your lists. It can act as that "Shatterstorm" effect if needed but when Artifacts aren't making you miserable then it's still a 4 mana Slagstorm which still gets the job done more often than not. I know that I generally bash on marginal utility spells but this is one of the few exceptions that's legitimately good in my opinion. Slagstorm is still very good at 4 CMC and having a mass Artifact destruction spell in your deck can be insanely important at times. Still, you get to avoid all of that awkward nonsense of drawing a card like Vandalblast when you don't need it and can instead clear the board/nuke everyone for 6.
I think that cards like Mogg Maniac and Spitemare are overrated but it depends on how small your games are I guess.
Okay, I finally have all the key cards together now. I'm suiting the following up as a test run tomorrow night.
(Price Watch: Soulfire Grand Master is now down to $5-6 a copy post-rotation... yeeehah!)
About the only major change is Arcbond. I picked up a few copies on rotation for cents on the dollar.
Is it any good? Who knows! I'll test it out and see. In theory, it should be a surprise I can throw both on opponents' attacks as well as on B. Act resolution for double-damage off a Reckoner to someone's face. Let you all know how it rolls.
If Arcbond turns out to suck, it's probably going to get swapped for Luminarch Ascension, I would imagine.
Arcbond isn't a good card to max out on. 1-2 copies tops is fine but 3 seems excessive.
23 lands isn't enough.
Yep, good points all. I hope to swap Earthquakes for Rolling Earthquakes soon. Maybe O-Ring to Grasp of Fate too if I'm lucky.
Definitely going to keep an eye on the copies of Arcbond that I need. Suspect I may indeed drop one for a land.
I like Thought Vessel for holding onto the massive amount of cards draw from Swans. I also like Brave The Elements for protection from removal for your creatures + protecting them from your own board wipes if need be.
From my experience, the deck seems like it can run out of gas at times even if you are dealing 13+ damage or gaining 100+ life. I added in 4x Fellwar Stone to fuel Sphinx's Revelation easier, along with 2 Luminarch Ascension as a backup win-con. Depending on your meta, a single Austere Command has always been good, and a few Swan Songs for extra bodies to fuel BACT and CR. If you plan on keeping a full hand with Thought Vessel or Reliquary Tower, I would use 2-4 Forbid.
Why would you need to run Sphinx's Revelation as you are already drawing off Swans and gaining life from Soulfire? And you are relying on multiple Fellwar Stones to access all this blue mana? What if no one is playing blue? You are just drawing dead cards.
Why would you need to run Sphinx's Revelation as you are already drawing off Swans and gaining life from Soulfire? And you are relying on multiple Fellwar Stones to access all this blue mana? What if no one is playing blue? You are just drawing dead cards.
Rev only requires UU... why would he need to rely on blue mana from Fellwar Stones? He obviously plays a Jeskai list as opposed to a Boros list, and he means that he relies on mana rocks to help power an X spell. I play a Jeskai version myself, and find it to be more reliable: but clearly you have to invest more in the mana base.
As for the Rev itself, it is a bit redundant, but as long as you aren't maxing out, it's not like redundancy is terrible. You wont always draw a Swans, and even if you do, people may have removal before you can hit it with a big burn spell. Having a back up draw plan is not a bad thing.
Sometimes I'll have a hand full of burn spells with no creatures to play with (12 isn't a lot to work with). It's nice to be able to play a BAct for 1, and then at the last end step, tap out and draw a bunch of cards/gain life so I start playing stuff on my next turn. You risk taking up valuable spell slots in the form of ramp though. What's nice about this deck is that it's very interchangeable. Here's my current list:
Ran my list last night, and it won a five-player game with a far-from-perfect draw.
T2 Soulfire, T3 Reckoner, T4 Swans, T5 Reckoner + Act. I played them in this order just to see how much my group would let me get away with - it telegraphed things somewhat, but it still worked. The Swans got axed as it resolved, but I still one-shotted someone off the board and gained 100+ life.
From there, I completely and utterly failed to draw into any further damage spells for something in the league of 10-15 turns. My lifegain kept me afloat, and in the end I was drawing four cards a turn off Outpost Siege. I drew into another Act just as it looked like the tables were turning, and finished the game out. Arcbond does indeed matter. It's a very tricksy card, and I misplayed it once in my panic to resolve it off drawing it from Outpost Siege before it stayed exiled (should've swung and resolved it during combat). But it's capable of producing a surprise Earthquake-style damage event even just off combat - not what people expect when you're packing Blasphemous Act.
Gisela is good, but I suspect she can go overboard. She just makes the maths harder, not too much more than that.
I just want to go on record saying that the Blue versions of this deck should basically ubiquitously be running Swan Song or Stubborn Denial. This deck easily wins when it sticks Swan + B.Act on the same turn and so anything cheap that you can use to protect Swans (even Misdirection) is stellar. You should basically never cast your Swans unless it's for immediate value which I think is the biggest mistake that most people make. Swan Song has fantastic synergy with B.Act/Chain Rxt and unlike Dispel/Negate it's a relevant disruption spell "on the draw" against cards like Waste Not which can easily win games on their own. Stubborn Denial works too since no one is going to play around a Force Spike in multiplayer but the deck basically doesn't do anything if Swans dies before you draw cards off of it.
For what it's worth I also typically play Humble Defector over Boros Reckoner now. Defector is fantastic in decks full of mass removal and I've never felt like hitting someone for 13 accomplished much. It's fine if most of the players at the table suck and you only need to worry about 1 but that's generally not the case for me so so I'm not in love with the Reckoner for anything other than blocking.
People should consider trying Repercussion as an actual good win condition. With SFGM damage that you deal to yourself is irrelevant and cards like Swan Song and Humble Defector make it a lot easier to kill people who don't even play critters. Repercussion is a Reckoner for everyone which is so many orders of magnitude more powerful.
I like the list. Why Harves Pyre? Doesn't seem like you would need any spot removal... are you turning that on your swans as instant speed massive draw? Curious on that slot.
are you turning that on your swans as instant speed massive draw? Curious on that slot.
That's the idea. I find myself binning a lot of cards and so I love playing cards like Dig Through Time and Harvest Pyre that can take advantage of it and convert it into a massive draw engine. It's clearly not a card that you can load up on but I've been testing 1 and haven't cut it yet.
are you turning that on your swans as instant speed massive draw? Curious on that slot.
That's the idea. I find myself binning a lot of cards and so I love playing cards like Dig Through Time and Harvest Pyre that can take advantage of it and convert it into a massive draw engine. It's clearly not a card that you can load up on but I've been testing 1 and haven't cut it yet.
Hmm... yeah I really like it. Does for you what Rev does for me, for a lot less. And with Repurcussion in there, there is no need for Elixir. I'm definitely trying this build out. Honestly think I may go Swan Song over Force, because of the token.
are you turning that on your swans as instant speed massive draw? Curious on that slot.
That's the idea. I find myself binning a lot of cards and so I love playing cards like Dig Through Time and Harvest Pyre that can take advantage of it and convert it into a massive draw engine. It's clearly not a card that you can load up on but I've been testing 1 and haven't cut it yet.
Hmm... yeah I really like it. Does for you what Rev does for me, for a lot less. And with Repurcussion in there, there is no need for Elixir. I'm definitely trying this build out. Honestly think I may go Swan Song over Force, because of the token.
I still like FoW and Misdirection but I mostly struggle to find room for everything.
Cutting countermagic probably isn't the way to go IMO.
I'm a blue mage, and always play control decks, even when control is not a thing... like in Modern, and the KTK season of standard... cutting countermagic is basically against my religion. That being said, I think the right amount of countermagic in a deck somewhat depends on what you are typically facing down. If your facing a bunch of white weenie decks that play zero removal, obviously playing 12x counterspells wouldn't be the best way to go.
Again, though, I'm the guy that overdoes the countermagic, and then cuts back slowly as it becomes obvious that I have too much. I'm planning to try playsets of Swan Song and Force of Will first. If I get flooded every game in unneeded countermagic, I whittle down.
As an aside: the new art for Force of Will is really throwing me off...
Creatures - 20
4x Boros Reckoner (Likes getting hit by blanket damage)
4x Spitemare (Ditto)
1x Mogg Maniac (Ditto... good early drop for this deck, but I've only got one copy)
4x Soulfire Grand Master (Life!)
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll (Cards!)
2x Stuffy Doll (Because everyone loves Stuffy)
1x Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (I'm undecided on Gisela... she might be a bit win more, but she'd definitely make it possible to win via Earthquake very quickly)
Spells - 17
4x Blasphemous Act (And it is!)
2x Earthquake (More blanket damage)
2x Chain Reaction (And more... I'm undecided on whether eight blanket damage spells is enough)
4x Oblivion Ring (All-purpose removal)
4x Outpost Siege (A dual-purpose all-star here)
1x Nevinyrral's Disk (Emergency reset button)
Land - 23
4x Clifftop Retreat
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Rogue's Passage
1x Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
8x Mountain
7x Plains
Sound OK? I also potentially have room for blanket damage along the lines of Fiery Confluence or Sizzle, and plenty of other forms of removal (read Orim's Thunder, Lightning Helix, Swords, PtE et al).
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I run 8 blanket dmg spells in my build, and it's been plenty. With Swans I'm typically decking myself multiple times a games, and recycling with Elixir of Immortality, so it plays like it has way more than 8. Generally speaking, you'll be able to cast one, draw a bunch, and then discard to keep at least another blanket burn, another SGM and/or Reckoner. I also have a couple of non damage mass removal spells in there to give me a variety of answers to a variety of threats.
Also, I can tell you that, in the non-Repercussion list, cards like Assemble the Legion are straight gas in this deck. Luminarch Ascension as well. Make B. Acts castable on the cheap, even when your opponents run out of threats.
You may end up shaving threats as well for things like enchant removal. Myself, I've gone down to 3 Reckoners and 3 SFG. You will just play around with numbers until the deck has the right feel for you, but that's where I arrived.
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Awww man, so true. Just when I thought I'd broken the back of the expensive cards for this deck...
Otherwise, great points, both of you.
Believe it or not, there is not a single version of this archetype running around in my meta. I've seen Boros Reckoner and Blasphemous Act a few times, but never in tandem. Whether that is because none of the other guys in my meta have even thought about this archetype before, or they have and just have been too gentlemanly to put it together, I dunno. But I intend on rocking it fairly hard... T2 Soulfire, T3 Reckoner, T4 B. Act sounds not only possible but horrid.
And top idea with Luminarch Ascension in particular. I'm pretty sure I have three copies floating ATM... looks like we're back onboard the Luminarch train, folks...
EDIT: Oh, and yeah, this is definitely the Not-Repercussion build. Otherwise I'd be running Forbidden Orchards and Varchild's War-Riders like they were hot.
Maybe one day... I do love that card, but getting four of them is not easy these days. They need to reprint that thing like fury...
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They reprinted that bad boy in From the Vault: Annihilation. It's about $4 for the reprint. Not free like Earthquake is, but it's no longer 1 trillion dollars.
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I agree that L.Ascension and Assemble the Legion are gas in 8+ Wrath decks.
I don't agree that Fiery Confluence is weak. I think that all 3 modes are very relevant in this type of deck and that people underestimate the flexibility that it brings to your lists. It can act as that "Shatterstorm" effect if needed but when Artifacts aren't making you miserable then it's still a 4 mana Slagstorm which still gets the job done more often than not. I know that I generally bash on marginal utility spells but this is one of the few exceptions that's legitimately good in my opinion. Slagstorm is still very good at 4 CMC and having a mass Artifact destruction spell in your deck can be insanely important at times. Still, you get to avoid all of that awkward nonsense of drawing a card like Vandalblast when you don't need it and can instead clear the board/nuke everyone for 6.
I think that cards like Mogg Maniac and Spitemare are overrated but it depends on how small your games are I guess.
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Creatures - 18
4x Boros Reckoner (Likes getting hit by blanket damage)
4x Spitemare (Ditto)
1x Mogg Maniac (Ditto... good early drop for this deck, but I've only got one copy)
4x Soulfire Grand Master (Life!)
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll (Cards!)
1x Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (She might be a bit win more, but she'd definitely make it possible to win via Earthquake very quickly)
Spells - 19
4x Blasphemous Act (And it is!)
2x Earthquake (More blanket damage)
1x Chain Reaction (And more)
4x Oblivion Ring (All-purpose removal)
4x Outpost Siege (A dual-purpose all-star here)
1x Elixir of Immortality (Recycling so we don't deck out with the Swans)
3x Arcbond (Surprise double-damage spell on a Reckoner / Spitemare / Maniac)
Land - 23
2x Boros Garrision
2x Evolving Wilds
1x Sacred Foundry
9x Mountain
9x Plains
About the only major change is Arcbond. I picked up a few copies on rotation for cents on the dollar.
Is it any good? Who knows! I'll test it out and see. In theory, it should be a surprise I can throw both on opponents' attacks as well as on B. Act resolution for double-damage off a Reckoner to someone's face. Let you all know how it rolls.
If Arcbond turns out to suck, it's probably going to get swapped for Luminarch Ascension, I would imagine.
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Grasp of Fate is strictly better than Oblivion Ring.
Arcbond isn't a good card to max out on. 1-2 copies tops is fine but 3 seems excessive.
23 lands isn't enough.
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Yep, good points all. I hope to swap Earthquakes for Rolling Earthquakes soon. Maybe O-Ring to Grasp of Fate too if I'm lucky.
Definitely going to keep an eye on the copies of Arcbond that I need. Suspect I may indeed drop one for a land.
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As for the Rev itself, it is a bit redundant, but as long as you aren't maxing out, it's not like redundancy is terrible. You wont always draw a Swans, and even if you do, people may have removal before you can hit it with a big burn spell. Having a back up draw plan is not a bad thing.
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Creatures (12):
4x Soulfire Grand Master
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
Spells (24)
4x Blasphemous Act
2x Rolling Earthquake
1x Elixir of Immortality
3x Swan Song
2x Luminarch Ascension
4x Fellwar Stone
4x Sphinx's Revelation
2x Chain Reaction
1x Terminus
1x Austere Command
6x Island
4x Mountain
4x Mystic Monastery
7x Plains
1x Vivid Crag
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Meadow
You could make lots of substitutions to fit your playstyle:
-3Swan Song +2Arcbond +1Forbid
-4Fellwar Stone +4Thought Vessel or +4Preordain
-4Sphinx's Revelation, +2Stuffy Doll +2Rhystic Study
-2Luminarch Ascension, +2Ætherling
T2 Soulfire, T3 Reckoner, T4 Swans, T5 Reckoner + Act. I played them in this order just to see how much my group would let me get away with - it telegraphed things somewhat, but it still worked. The Swans got axed as it resolved, but I still one-shotted someone off the board and gained 100+ life.
From there, I completely and utterly failed to draw into any further damage spells for something in the league of 10-15 turns. My lifegain kept me afloat, and in the end I was drawing four cards a turn off Outpost Siege. I drew into another Act just as it looked like the tables were turning, and finished the game out.
Arcbond does indeed matter. It's a very tricksy card, and I misplayed it once in my panic to resolve it off drawing it from Outpost Siege before it stayed exiled (should've swung and resolved it during combat). But it's capable of producing a surprise Earthquake-style damage event even just off combat - not what people expect when you're packing Blasphemous Act.
Gisela is good, but I suspect she can go overboard. She just makes the maths harder, not too much more than that.
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I'm running:
3x Arid Mesa
3x Celestial Colonnade
2x Clifftop Retreat
2x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
1x Mountain
2x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Boros Reckoner
3x Soulfire Grand Master
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
Other Spells (24):
1x Austere Command
4x Blasphemous Act
2x Chain Reaction
1x Final Judgment
2x Rolling Earthquake
1x Terminus
4x Brainstorm
2x Dissipate
2x Return to Dust
2x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Assemble the Legion
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Elixir of Immortality
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For what it's worth I also typically play Humble Defector over Boros Reckoner now. Defector is fantastic in decks full of mass removal and I've never felt like hitting someone for 13 accomplished much. It's fine if most of the players at the table suck and you only need to worry about 1 but that's generally not the case for me so so I'm not in love with the Reckoner for anything other than blocking.
People should consider trying Repercussion as an actual good win condition. With SFGM damage that you deal to yourself is irrelevant and cards like Swan Song and Humble Defector make it a lot easier to kill people who don't even play critters. Repercussion is a Reckoner for everyone which is so many orders of magnitude more powerful.
My current list:
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Forbidden Orchard
2x Steam Vents
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
2x Mountain
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Plains
4x Humble Defector
4x Soulfire Grand Master
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
Spells (24)
4x Brainstorm
4x Swan Song
2x Rolling Earthquake
1x Harvest Pyre
1x Wear // Tear
2x Anger of the Gods
4x Repercussion
2x Chain Reaction
4x Blasphemous Act
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
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That's the idea. I find myself binning a lot of cards and so I love playing cards like Dig Through Time and Harvest Pyre that can take advantage of it and convert it into a massive draw engine. It's clearly not a card that you can load up on but I've been testing 1 and haven't cut it yet.
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I still like FoW and Misdirection but I mostly struggle to find room for everything.
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Forbidden Orchard
2x Steam Vents
2x Sacred Foundry
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Plains
2x Humble Defector
3x Soulfire Grand Master
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
Spells (28)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Swan Song
1x Rolling Earthquake
1x Wear // Tear
1x Anger of the Gods
4x Repercussion
1x Chain Reaction
4x Force of Will
4x Blasphemous Act
Maybe something like this if you want more countermagic.
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Cutting countermagic probably isn't the way to go IMO.
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I'm a blue mage, and always play control decks, even when control is not a thing... like in Modern, and the KTK season of standard... cutting countermagic is basically against my religion. That being said, I think the right amount of countermagic in a deck somewhat depends on what you are typically facing down. If your facing a bunch of white weenie decks that play zero removal, obviously playing 12x counterspells wouldn't be the best way to go.
Again, though, I'm the guy that overdoes the countermagic, and then cuts back slowly as it becomes obvious that I have too much. I'm planning to try playsets of Swan Song and Force of Will first. If I get flooded every game in unneeded countermagic, I whittle down.
As an aside: the new art for Force of Will is really throwing me off...
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