I have been excited by all of the recent cards being printed in B/W. While I already have one Orzhov B/W deck, it is creature-less control. I wanted to try out a more creature based approach. This is what I am working on thus far. Keep in mind that about half the decks in this meta contain 6+ wraths so the deck needs to be able to recover from/survive that. I know skullclamp can be a bit too powerful (or weak depending on the opposition), but this seems like the perfect deck for it.
The curve is very low for a multiplayer deck, but several of the creatures have activated abilities, and skullclamp will keep eating mana to keep a full hand. Every creature can return to the ranks triggering genesis chamber and the soul sisters. Karl should get huge fast and can be unblockable with rogues passage or be flung with Ayli and the guild mage. Clamps and return to the tanks should give the deck staying power despite the low curve. Karl and Ayli can remove any problem permanents. Cutthroat punishes mass removal and can likely take out the table in combination with the guildmage. Thoughts?
Been jamming a similar deck myself. 4x Ayli is far too many in my preliminary tests because the card isn't actually all that great unless you're already winning. She's a fine 1-2 of but I think that running 4 is a big mistake Oh, and yes, I recognize the fact that she can always trade off with other creatures. In practice you should always have the board anyways (barring mass removal) so that's rarely been relevant for me in my games.
It's nitpicky but I actually prefer Blood Artist to ZC in Genesis Chamber decks. It's no big deal either way and both cards would work fine.
Vizkopa Guildmage is more of a 6 drop than a 2 drop (and a conditional 6 drop at that) so I don't usually run more than 2.
I think the mana base should be made simpler, if anything. You're playing two colors and realistically all you need to do is guarantee W on turn 1 and WB by turn 3. Scoured Barrens seems like a free upgrade to Orzhov Basilica. With 4 Skullclamp it's not like you need the 2-for-1 the bounce lands give you. I don't know how much trouble you'll have keeping your life total high, but all those painlands and shocklands might turn Ayli off more often than you'd like.
Thrull Parasite is only there to Extort and you could just as easily replace it with Tithe Drinker if you still want something you can cash in to the Clamp later on. This means you can skew your landbase a little more towards white and help guarantee that T1 Warden. I wouldn't go with more complicated engines because Return to the Ranks will put you massively ahead on life as soon as it resolves. The deck looks sick overall though, and these are all just minor gripes.
I think the mana base should be made simpler, if anything. You're playing two colors and realistically all you need to do is guarantee W on turn 1 and WB by turn 3. Scoured Barrens seems like a free upgrade to Orzhov Basilica. With 4 Skullclamp it's not like you need the 2-for-1 the bounce lands give you. I don't know how much trouble you'll have keeping your life total high, but all those painlands and shocklands might turn Ayli off more often than you'd like.
Thrull Parasite is only there to Extort and you could just as easily replace it with Tithe Drinker if you still want something you can cash in to the Clamp later on. This means you can skew your landbase a little more towards white and help guarantee that T1 Warden. I wouldn't go with more complicated engines because Return to the Ranks will put you massively ahead on life as soon as it resolves. The deck looks sick overall though, and these are all just minor gripes.
I decided to take the deck Abzan because who doesn't like to stress a mana base to its limits. I dropped the genesis chambers and switched to abzan ascendancy and spirit bonds for more wrath protection/recovery (and to avoid the oppressiveness that is chamber + clamps). It is unfortunate that spirit bonds can't save Karlov (it should have stated non-token rather than non-spirit) but I digress. I wanted a place to put siege rhino now that he's a dollar and didn't want to build a whole new deck just for him so in he went.
I have an Emeria deck already (at least mostly built) and traded off my spare coffers so this is going to stick to an unfortunately painful mana base. All the life gain should make up for it tenfold however.
This is what I am thinking for the deck, the only land I still need is the temple garden (mine is in another deck). Alternative thoughts on the mana base to help ensure a turn 1 Soul Sister and a Karlov by at least turn 3 (preferably t2) and a turn 4 rhino? Fetches and true duals are not an option nor are more shocks.
I know that it's not budget-friendly but I have to point out the synergy between Spirit Bonds and Bloodghast (in addition to Clamp, Ascendancy, on and on and on). I've never found a Spirit Bonds deck that I've actually liked until I started pairing it with the 'Ghast.
Tempting, I actually own two copies of bloodghast. Is it just the ability to sac him to make anyone else indestructible repeatedly that makes him good with spirit bonds or the ability to turn lands into more spirit tokens (or the gestalt)? Seems tough to cast, but maybe just discard him to a full hand.
Not sure what to drop then probably cutthroats or essence wardens. Would it be better to run a different token engine than spirit bonds if I don't run the bloodghasts? More ascendancys or maybe lingering souls?
Tempting, I actually own two copies of bloodghast. Is it just the ability to sac him to make anyone else indestructible repeatedly that makes him good with spirit bonds or the ability to turn lands into more spirit tokens (or the gestalt)? Seems tough to cast, but maybe just discard him to a full hand.
It's everything. No one individual synergy is broken but their combination makes the card formidable.
He's not that tough to cast and he's not even a 2 drop really. Even if you cast him on turn 4 that's fine. He can't block and attacking for 2 isn't relevant so there's no need to run him out early on.
Not sure what to drop then probably cutthroats or essence wardens. Would it be better to run a different token engine than spirit bonds if I don't run the bloodghasts? More ascendancys or maybe lingering souls?
I think that Spirit Bonds sucks in general so yes, I would definitely cut it if you don't add Ghasts.
I agree that Abzan Rally is tight for deck slots but there's room to fit everything. For starter you want 4x draw 4x value 4x recursion which would basically be 4x Skullclamp 4x Abzan Ascendancy and for recursion it could be anything from Return to the Ranks to Living Death but 4x Ranks will work just fine. Assuming that you cut bonds that makes room for your Ascendancies but since you still need 2x revival slots the only cuts are 1x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim (1 is the right number in my testing) and the only other flex slot is Essence Warden so one of those has to go.
For what it's worth I'd also cut the other Essence Warden for a land. Also, yes, the difference between a free effect such as Ascendancy and a "pay" effect such as Spirit Bonds is the difference between "competitive" and "unplayable trash."
I think I'll leave the bloodghasts out and remove the spirit bonds. I could trade the ghasts for half of a new deck since the price has jumped on them. Spirit bonds made more sense before I added green, but abzan ascendancy is way better as wrath protection giving me an army of spirits that can be used to convoke return to the ranks to get everything else (except poor siege rhino) back.
Dropped the Essence Wardens, 10 sisters is probably overkill. I like Ayli as an answer to problematic non-creature permanents. One may be the correct number, but I think I'll stick with 2 for now. Having another land may make the mana base more stable, but time will tell if I drop her down to a single copy.
Is there a version of this deck that doesn't use Skullclamp for those of us who follow some semblance of a ban list? I had a B/W Humans deck that used Mesmeric Orb to fill up the graveyard before casting or resurrecting an Angel of Glory's Rise, but too many of the creatures that work with this strategy aren't humans. Maybe skew things more toward 2 CMC and pack Immortal Servitude for X=2 with all your self-mill?
I don't have a specific banned list, but build all of my multiplayer decks to be of roughly equal power level. Clamp may be too powerful for legacy and modern, but multiplayer is a completely different format. When creature based decks need to be able to survive against decks packing 6-10 wraths with card draw such as mystic remora and syphon mind (another option btw), clamp doesn't seem so overpowered.
Is there a version of this deck that doesn't use Skullclamp for those of us who follow some semblance of a ban list? I had a B/W Humans deck that used Mesmeric Orb to fill up the graveyard before casting or resurrecting an Angel of Glory's Rise, but too many of the creatures that work with this strategy aren't humans. Maybe skew things more toward 2 CMC and pack Immortal Servitude for X=2 with all your self-mill?
After playing the deck a bit, I'm going back to B/W. Three colors strained the mana base too much and didn't really add anything that B/W couldn't do on its own. When I handed the deck to newer players, they never wanted to lose a creature to use skullclamp (IDK why). Genesis chamber should resolve that and get them to play the deck more efficiently. The new fast lands are awesome too and I'll definitely be picking them up for this deck.
This is what I'm thinking for the new version. While it can swing in with Karlov for huge amounts, it can also grind out opponents with death triggers. Ghost Council of Orzhova + Genesis Chamber gets several triggers a round for any of the other creatures. This is pretty much the finished version; thought I would post it to help others. Suggestions are always welcome, but I likely won't be changing it.
When I handed the deck to newer players, they never wanted to lose a creature to use skullclamp (IDK why).
Because they don't understand the value of their actions and see them as being detrimental. Don't forget that when Necropotence was released it was heralded as being one of the worst cards ever printed.
I have been excited by all of the recent cards being printed in B/W. While I already have one Orzhov B/W deck, it is creature-less control. I wanted to try out a more creature based approach. This is what I am working on thus far. Keep in mind that about half the decks in this meta contain 6+ wraths so the deck needs to be able to recover from/survive that. I know skullclamp can be a bit too powerful (or weak depending on the opposition), but this seems like the perfect deck for it.
4 Soul Warden
4 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
4 Karlov of the Ghost Council
3 Vizkopa Guildmage
4 Skullclamp
4 Genesis Chamber
3 Return to the Ranks
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
Land (22)
3 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Orzhov Basilica
1 Godless Shrine
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Rogue's Passage
1 Vault of the Archangel
The curve is very low for a multiplayer deck, but several of the creatures have activated abilities, and skullclamp will keep eating mana to keep a full hand. Every creature can return to the ranks triggering genesis chamber and the soul sisters. Karl should get huge fast and can be unblockable with rogues passage or be flung with Ayli and the guild mage. Clamps and return to the tanks should give the deck staying power despite the low curve. Karl and Ayli can remove any problem permanents. Cutthroat punishes mass removal and can likely take out the table in combination with the guildmage. Thoughts?
4 Soul Warden
4 Suture Priest
4 Karlov of the Ghost Council
1 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
1 Ghost Council of Orzhova
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Skullclamp
4 Genesis Chamber
4 Return to the Ranks
Land (22)
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Westvale Abbey
It's nitpicky but I actually prefer Blood Artist to ZC in Genesis Chamber decks. It's no big deal either way and both cards would work fine.
Vizkopa Guildmage is more of a 6 drop than a 2 drop (and a conditional 6 drop at that) so I don't usually run more than 2.
I really like Ajani's Pridemate. I usually run the full 4.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
whip of erebos
path of bravery
Akroma's Memorial
Adding onto the Oreskos Explorer idea:
Scrubland
A solid mana combo if you have a way to find "any land" instead of "basic lands":
urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
cabal coffers
expedition map
Tax-Rack with Blade of Selves
Tax-Rack with Vicious Shadows
Mesmeric Orb + Lord of Extinction
G/W/K Sun Titan Reanimator
U/G LashWrithe
Thrull Parasite is only there to Extort and you could just as easily replace it with Tithe Drinker if you still want something you can cash in to the Clamp later on. This means you can skew your landbase a little more towards white and help guarantee that T1 Warden. I wouldn't go with more complicated engines because Return to the Ranks will put you massively ahead on life as soon as it resolves. The deck looks sick overall though, and these are all just minor gripes.
If you add Tithe Drinker you can even consider maindecking/sideboarding some Immortal Servitudes. The card is beastly!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I have an Emeria deck already (at least mostly built) and traded off my spare coffers so this is going to stick to an unfortunately painful mana base. All the life gain should make up for it tenfold however.
This is what I am thinking for the deck, the only land I still need is the temple garden (mine is in another deck). Alternative thoughts on the mana base to help ensure a turn 1 Soul Sister and a Karlov by at least turn 3 (preferably t2) and a turn 4 rhino? Fetches and true duals are not an option nor are more shocks.
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Soul Warden
2 Essence Warden
Beats
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Karlov of the Ghost Council
4 Siege Rhino
Stuff
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Skullclamp
2 Spirit Bonds
2 Abzan Ascendancy
2 Return to the Ranks
Land (22)
3 Brushland
3 Caves of Koilos
6 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Llanowar Wastes
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Not sure what to drop then probably cutthroats or essence wardens. Would it be better to run a different token engine than spirit bonds if I don't run the bloodghasts? More ascendancys or maybe lingering souls?
It's everything. No one individual synergy is broken but their combination makes the card formidable.
He's not that tough to cast and he's not even a 2 drop really. Even if you cast him on turn 4 that's fine. He can't block and attacking for 2 isn't relevant so there's no need to run him out early on.
I think that Spirit Bonds sucks in general so yes, I would definitely cut it if you don't add Ghasts.
I agree that Abzan Rally is tight for deck slots but there's room to fit everything. For starter you want 4x draw 4x value 4x recursion which would basically be 4x Skullclamp 4x Abzan Ascendancy and for recursion it could be anything from Return to the Ranks to Living Death but 4x Ranks will work just fine. Assuming that you cut bonds that makes room for your Ascendancies but since you still need 2x revival slots the only cuts are 1x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim (1 is the right number in my testing) and the only other flex slot is Essence Warden so one of those has to go.
Lingering Souls + Abzan Ascendancy is too much of a nonbo so I don't recommend playing both in the same deck.
For what it's worth I'd also cut the other Essence Warden for a land. Also, yes, the difference between a free effect such as Ascendancy and a "pay" effect such as Spirit Bonds is the difference between "competitive" and "unplayable trash."
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Soul Warden
Beats
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Karlov of the Ghost Council
4 Siege Rhino
Stuff
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Skullclamp
4 Abzan Ascendancy
4 Return to the Ranks
Land (22)
2 Brushland
2 Caves of Koilos
2 City of Brass
6 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
4 Jungle Hollow
2 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Llanowar Wastes
Dropped the Essence Wardens, 10 sisters is probably overkill. I like Ayli as an answer to problematic non-creature permanents. One may be the correct number, but I think I'll stick with 2 for now. Having another land may make the mana base more stable, but time will tell if I drop her down to a single copy.
I don't have a specific banned list, but build all of my multiplayer decks to be of roughly equal power level. Clamp may be too powerful for legacy and modern, but multiplayer is a completely different format. When creature based decks need to be able to survive against decks packing 6-10 wraths with card draw such as mystic remora and syphon mind (another option btw), clamp doesn't seem so overpowered.
You can absolutely play the deck w/o Clamp. Any 4 draw spells will work. Well of Lost Dreams is a perfectly playable option and so are things like Syphon Mind (given enough players). Mentor of the Meek, Bygone Bishop, Collected Company, Grim Haruspex, Phyrexian Arena, Necrologia, it literally just has to say "draw... card" on it and it will probably work fine.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
This is what I'm thinking for the new version. While it can swing in with Karlov for huge amounts, it can also grind out opponents with death triggers. Ghost Council of Orzhova + Genesis Chamber gets several triggers a round for any of the other creatures. This is pretty much the finished version; thought I would post it to help others. Suggestions are always welcome, but I likely won't be changing it.
4 Soul Warden
4 Suture Priest
1 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
1 Ghost Council of Orzhova
4 Karlov of the Ghost Council
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Skullclamp
4 Genesis Chamber
4 Return to the Ranks
4 Concealed Courtyard
5 Swamp
7 Plains
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Vault of the Archangel
Because they don't understand the value of their actions and see them as being detrimental. Don't forget that when Necropotence was released it was heralded as being one of the worst cards ever printed.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Yeah, hopefully having the option to clamp myr is more appealing to them since they are 'only tokens'