Hey everyone. Out of all color combination decks I am making, I am having the most difficulty with a black/white/red deck. At first I had minotaurs, but then decided to just go ahead and fill up the mana curves with a bunch of big dumb beats who provide value throughout all stages of the game. My budget is flexible, but please nothing over the top (more than $10-15 per card).
The only issue is that maybe it is a bit too slow early game, but I try and make up for it with extorting tithe drinker, ramp with myriad landscape, and double casting/chump blocking with lingering souls.
Yeah, that's a mighty steep mana curve. Lingering Souls will give you chump blockers, yes, but you'll have possible issues with trample. Tithe Drinker and extorting will just create much not-wanted attention, and probably won't last long. In addition, I have found that extortion paints you as a permanent threat, which is fine if you're ready for it, but your deck looks more like "I need to fly under the radar till I get enough mana to start beating face". Casting a couple of early Syphon Minds isn't going to help with the "under the radar" thing either. So I'd start with the mana curve and ramp.
Of the cards you listed in the "thought about" category, Worn Powerstone looks good for some ramp, and don't forget about simple old school mana rocks like Sol Ring (I think Commander versions are pretty affordable), and Fellwar Stone. You're playing 3 colors, including back and white, which gives a good chance Fellwar is going to give good mana, and it can always be used colorless. It's a truly under-rated mana rock.
Creature-wise in that "thought about" list, Taurean Mauler has always done me right, people tend to not be threatened until it gets out of hand with the counters. It's problem is that it's pretty vanilla. It's not going to help with fliers or trample (till later on if it survives) when you need to block. Butcher of the Horde is good solid body that flies, but you gotta have a really flexible mana base to be sure he actually drops on T4-5. He's also a decent free sac outlet that you can play around with.
Terminate is one of BRW's best spot removals for creatures, but you want to limit the amount of 1-for-1s in a MP deck. Still might be nice to run 1 or 2 in a pinch.
Overall, I'd say the biggest thing you need to look at is getting your mana curve back down to earth. Pick a couple of your big fatties you want to play with the most, and start cutting some of the big stuff in favor of an early defense. Vampire Nighthawk or other deathblockers are good early on when you want to turtle up. Recursion is good, or creatures like Doomed Traveler that "replace" themselves. Anything to help you survive early on until you hit your offensive curve.
I aggree with Sacrifice to drop Lingering Souls and/or Tithe Drinker. Wall of Omens seems like a no-brainer to me, helps you early on and isn't a dead drop in late game either.
I personally don't think that [insert removal spell] holds a candle to Swords To Plowshares as far as power level when it comes to [all] colors.
FTFY
No, seriously though, StP costs less money and less mana. It's not even remotely close. I'd only run Terminate if A) I were using a Modern banned list or B) I owned Terminates and didn't want to shell out 10 bucks for StPs (which is very reasonable).
I specified Mardu colors because a)the post is regarding Mardu colors, b)StP isn't powerful at all in a deck that can't cast W. But yes, StP rocks harder than anything in almost every single situation... And can be bought for under $2 if you don't mind white borders.
I specified Mardu colors because a)the post is regarding Mardu colors, b)StP isn't powerful at all in a deck that can't cast W. But yes, StP rocks harder than anything in almost every single situation... And can be bought for under $2 if you don't mind white borders.
Conspiracy versions are also cheap, have the good art and Black borders :).
Ha ha, reading through the thread it seems you blokes beat me to the STP remark.
I like Butcher of the Horde as a card, but I feel it's manacost can be very hard on turn4.
It should really be as many Bloodgift Demon as you can cram in there.
My Mardu-coloured deck has been through a few different versions, and I ended up settling with a non-degenerate version packed full of creatures. Scourge of Geier Reach, Hamletback Goliath & Mass Mutiny were in there besides ones already mentioned.
My previous version was more powerful, but got me significant hate from everybody. Didn't stop me winning with it a few times... Ha!
The aim of the deck was simply to keep the field clear of creature threats with sweepers and sacrifice effects, land a Luminarch Ascension or Vicious Shadows and repeat said tactic of sweeping the field or spewing angels onto the field.
I had Day of Judgment, Abyssal Gatekeeper, Crackling Doom, Fault Line (instant speed), Merciless Eviction, some recursive threats including Reassembling Skeleton to carry living weapons from Stoneforge Mystic, Taurean Mauler and of course plenty of card draw. I should add that lifegain might be needed if you plan on lasting very long running this sort of hateful deck.
EDIT:
If I was going to continue this deck idea above and improve it, I think basing it around Luminarch Ascension and Cataclysm, with a small mana-curve would be a worthy way to go.
The deck is close but it's not quite there yet. I've also played a lot of decks that start on 4 CMC and the key to playing them is having six 2 CMC ramp spells. That is, where you have 3x Fellwar Stone I would personally play 4x Fellwar Stone and say 2x Orzhov Signet. Between 6 redundant copies of the effect and the free multiplayer mulligan I calculated it to be a ~90% probability of having a playable hand that hits 4 mana by turn 3. I always assume that you're willing to drop down to 6 cards (because you should be) and using the math of 7-7-6 it's pretty amazing how frequently you'll have 4 mana for turn 3. Oh, and this doesn't even include the "free scry" but I know that a lot of people already employ it so that bumps the math even more. I obviously don't know how fast your meta is but that's about where I want to be in a casual game of Magic.
(Note that this works for any style of ramp deck so if you want to play a deck full of 6 drops then 4x Worn Powerstone and 2x Coalition Relic is about what you need to jam them by turn 4.)
Otherwise your costs scare me. All of your Red cards require double Red, *** and Aurelia require WW, Desc Demon is BB, etc. If you were running my pattented 4x Reflecting Pool 4x Exotic Orchard 4x Nomad Outpost manabase this wouldn't bother me but given that your deck is mostly basics and Myriad Landscapes that seems a bit ambitious to me. Maybe the deck plays fine in practice, especially if you do add more mana rocks, but seeing all of those double costs scares me.
Prid3 > Would there be any suggestions, creature wise, that you would run that don't require all the double costs? I try not to break the budget on lands so the reflecting pool and exotic orchard are probably out. Maybe some evolving wilds? I hate to have a ton of EBT lands though. I ended up with 2 deck ideas, one obviously with less creatures and more control. Not sure if I butchered the deck with the new creature choices...
Eh, maybe I'm worried over nothing. If you're adding the mana rocks and aggressively mulliganing for them then the mana will probably work out well enough.
I don't really like the second deck mostly because I'd expect it to get run-over by creature-based strategies. I don't know what your meta looks like obviously but it feels too greedy for my tastes. I actually prefer something closer to your original list even though the mana was a bit wonky. The only thing I might suggest tweaking is using Wear // Tear or Return to Dust over Orim's Thunder since creatures are easy to kill and maybe cutting 1-2 removal spells for more mass removal and/or threats. I just don't like playing eight "spot removal" spells (I know that Crackling Doom isn't spot removal but still) in general. I'd rather run more mass removal and Ithink that far too few people play 8x Wrath of God (any variant) in their Control lists.
I dunno, Control is tough in multiplayer. Finding the right combination of ramp, draw, removal and win conditions isn't easy. Normally I would recommend something like Mind Stone which increases speed and reduces variance but it's obviously terrible in a 3 color deck. Cards like Alms Beast are hard to rate because on the one hand they block well but on the other hand they kinda don't do anything. Personally I would run 4x Day of Judgment (or whatever) in that slot and rely on things like Sepulchral Primordial to close the game out. Random 4 mana beaters with no evasive in decks without Rogue's Passage don't really interest me personally. I don't mind any of the 5+ CMC beaters that you posted (except for Kolaghan, I think that she's marginal) but the generic big 4 drops strike me as being "meh." I would just rather slam a mass removal spell than some big dumb idiot.
The Devils are cool assuming that they won't be gunned-down and they do make cards like Crackling Doom better.
Still not altogether sure about this one. I rarely play 3 color decks and when I do I play BUG or Abzan, not Mardu. I think that White and Red are the worst MP colors in general so my experience playing them together is very limited :/. I'm trying to think of a way to make this deck actively awesome but nothing is coming to mind :<.
EDIT: For what it's worth, of all the decks that you posted the first (the one in the OP) is my favorite. It's greedy as heck and missing some mana rocks but I love the overall power-level. I wouldn't play Whip (I'd play Palace Siege) and O.Thunder would be Wear // Tear but otherwise I'd just cut some durdles for some ramp and call it a day.
OK, so I feel like I need to stick up for myself a little here. If for no other reason than to show I'm not completely dumb.
First, I'd also prefer Swords to Plowshares over Terminate in a one-or-the-other situation as well. I did say that Terminate was ONE of BRW's best removal spells, not THE best, and I mentioned it mostly because it was in OP's maybe list already. We didn't even bring up some others like Path to Exile or Vindicate.
Second, it's been a long time since I've had to look at the price of either card. I'm actually amazed the StP is less money than Terminate. With that knowledge, yeah, Swords all the way.
OK, so I feel like I need to stick up for myself a little here. If for no other reason than to show I'm not completely dumb.
I can only speak for myself but I was just "talking out loud," not addressing any one person/comment in particular (even though I quoted Sparticus's post I wasn't really talking to him either). I don't think either of us were trying to demean your suggestion; we simply wanted to highlight a cheaper and more powerful alternative.
It's all good, I know nothing personal was intended. I just tend to get defensive sometimes because people tend to look at someone's off-kilter advice, then their post count, and dismiss them as someone with no knowledge. I only have like 50 posts, but 20 years of playing MTG, mostly in the MP realm. The insecurity is personal flaw, I apologize. I guess you could say it's also a personal flaw to assume that 20 years means I know anything. (my god, I'm an old fart)
OK, so I feel like I need to stick up for myself a little here. If for no other reason than to show I'm not completely dumb.
I can only speak for myself but I was just "talking out loud," not addressing any one person/comment in particular (even though I quoted Sparticus's post I wasn't really talking to him either). I don't think either of us were trying to demean your suggestion; we simply wanted to highlight a cheaper and more powerful alternative.
I'm on a roll trying to update some of my old decklists. I don't play my Mardu Beater deck very much, so hopefully I can change that. This one focuses on mostly good stuff spells and a few beneficial creatures to the deck.
With as much fatties and destruction that these 3 colors have, I think you could almost just have a bunch of singletons and the deck would still be fun and perform just fine.
I mean check out all this stuff I didn't even add in:
It's obviously much more midrangy where yours is more control. It's certainly another option for a direction to go.
If you go with the control version, I would highly suggest that you play more Wrath of Gods and less spot removal. I'm also not sold on the 2/2 split of Syphon Mind and Painful Truths, but you know your table better than I do certainly. I just always feel like either Syphon Mind is better, or Painful Truths is better, so you should stick with the playset of whichever that is.
If you go with the control version, I would highly suggest that you play more Wrath of Gods and less spot removal. I'm also not sold on the 2/2 split of Syphon Mind and Painful Truths, but you know your table better than I do certainly. I just always feel like either Syphon Mind is better, or Painful Truths is better, so you should stick with the playset of whichever that is.
Why? Spells that require payments of life have immense diminishing returns. The first Toxic Deluge is an auto-include in 100% of Black decks but all subsequent copies are up for debate. It's not inherently good to draw 3-4 of them (or Painful Truths) because life payment + pressure from multiple adversaries + scaling burn (Earthquake, Exanguinate) ensure that it carries a very real opportunity cost. With that in mind I would virtually always play the first Painful Truths in a 3+ color Black deck but limiting yourself at 1-2 seems significantly more reasonable than blindly jamming 4.
Which is why, if Syphon Mind draws 3 cards, I would rather play the full playset of it then play Painful Truths here. Yes I know it's one additional mana, but I think the lack of lifeloss is not insignificant. Not to mention that he is rocking a couple Earthquakes himself.
Unless there was specific lifegain, I probably wouldn't ever run 4x Painful Truths, that's true.
Which is why, if Syphon Mind draws 3 cards, I would rather play the full playset of it then play Painful Truths here. Yes I know it's one additional mana, but I think the lack of lifeloss is not insignificant. Not to mention that he is rocking a couple Earthquakes himself.
Concentrate isn't playable in Legacy/Vintage (let alone a conditional variation). Painful Truths is. The lifeloss matters, no one is arguing otherwise, but the extra mana matters a lot more.
FWIW the only reason why I'm so high on Syphon Mind is because my metas are 6-8 players. In 4 player FFAs the card is a marginal playable at best. A conditional Concentrate isn't that special.
Which is why, if Syphon Mind draws 3 cards, I would rather play the full playset of it then play Painful Truths here. Yes I know it's one additional mana, but I think the lack of lifeloss is not insignificant. Not to mention that he is rocking a couple Earthquakes himself.
Concentrate isn't playable in Legacy/Vintage (let alone a conditional variation). Painful Truths is. The lifeloss matters, no one is arguing otherwise, but the extra mana matters a lot more.
FWIW the only reason why I'm so high on Syphon Mind is because my metas are 6-8 players. In 4 player FFAs the card is a marginal playable at best. A conditional Concentrate isn't that special.
So would you throw 2x Concentrate in your deck to complement 2x Painful Truths? Because if not, you are still proving my point that if Syphon Mind is good, the full four is better, and if it's not, 0 is better. If you would, than we're just going to disagree, which is fine. I personally the Syphon Mind because my playgroups tend to be big as well, but if people were to not show up, I wouldn't bother switching it out for the night. That's just me.
@iemsparticus: You're deck looks pretty cool. It's almost a good stuff deck too.
Do you guys think it would be viable to just add a bunch of 1 ofs? Or Maybe just take out the STP and add in other random stuff or more mass removal. Maybe some more good stuff creatures? A few Goblin Dark-Dwellers as another way to recur spells. Maybe a single Burning Wish to get a key card that will win the game/make a huge impact. Another Grave Betrayal and things like Balance would be fun.
So would you throw 2x Concentrate in your deck to complement 2x Painful Truths? Because if not, you are still proving my point that if Syphon Mind is good, the full four is better, and if it's not, 0 is better. If you would, than we're just going to disagree, which is fine. I personally the Syphon Mind because my playgroups tend to be big as well, but if people were to not show up, I wouldn't bother switching it out for the night. That's just me.
Playing a split of Painful Truths and Syphon Minds is better than 4 of either. The former is the superior card in the context of a 4 player FFA (but actively bad in large quantities) and the latter is a reasonable, budget-minded card draw option for any Black deck. It's not the strongest draw spell in the game but it's still a Concentrate with upside which is serviceable if your deck doesn't have much lifegain and isn't playing Blue or Green. I see nothing wrong with his current configuration.
Let me ask you this. You think that the split has to be 4 or 0. Assuming that we agree with that logic what does he run in place of Syphon Mind to reliably generate card advantage?
Do you guys think it would be viable to just add a bunch of 1 ofs? Or Maybe just take out the STP and add in other random stuff or more mass removal. Maybe some more good stuff creatures? A few Goblin Dark-Dwellers as another way to recur spells. Maybe a single Burning Wish to get a key card that will win the game/make a huge impact. Another Grave Betrayal and things like Balance would be fun.
1-ofs are fine for cards that have immense diminishing returns. Good examples would be things like Recurring Nightmare, Olivia Voldaren, Balthor the Defiled and Sire of Insanity. Some cards are powerful when drawn but are worthless in multiples and that's where 1-2 ofs shine.
Burning Wish is overpowered and any Red deck would ideally run 4 from a pure power-level perspective. It's the all-around most powerful Red spell in the entire game for multiplayer purposes. In a perfect world 100% of decks would blindly field 4 and never look back.
As much as I love Balance the midrange/rampy card draw deck isn't a great place to field it. You figure to have a whack of lands, cards in hand and even creatures at all times. You could still field it and it would probably be fine but the card isn't automatically busted in 100% of White decks.
Grave Betrayal is a reasonable 1-of but generally requires some mass removal support to excel.
4x Tithe Drinker
4x Lingering Souls
2x Alms Beast
2x Desecration Demon
2x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Inferno Titan
2x Aurelia, the Warleader
1x Soul of Innistrad
3x Angel of Serenity
1x Sepulchral Primordial
1x Ashen Rider
3x Crackling Doom
2x Orim's Thunder
4x Syphon Mind
1x Whip of Erebos
Land (25)
3x Mountain
4x Myriad Landscape
4x Nomad Outpost
7x Plains
6x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
Some nice little combinations in here:
Crackling Doom + Sepulchral Primordial
Angel of Serenity and Soul of Innistrad to get back any creatures.
The only issue is that maybe it is a bit too slow early game, but I try and make up for it with extorting tithe drinker, ramp with myriad landscape, and double casting/chump blocking with lingering souls.
Just a few other cards I've thought about adding:
Any suggestions are welcomed!
Of the cards you listed in the "thought about" category, Worn Powerstone looks good for some ramp, and don't forget about simple old school mana rocks like Sol Ring (I think Commander versions are pretty affordable), and Fellwar Stone. You're playing 3 colors, including back and white, which gives a good chance Fellwar is going to give good mana, and it can always be used colorless. It's a truly under-rated mana rock.
Creature-wise in that "thought about" list, Taurean Mauler has always done me right, people tend to not be threatened until it gets out of hand with the counters. It's problem is that it's pretty vanilla. It's not going to help with fliers or trample (till later on if it survives) when you need to block. Butcher of the Horde is good solid body that flies, but you gotta have a really flexible mana base to be sure he actually drops on T4-5. He's also a decent free sac outlet that you can play around with.
Terminate is one of BRW's best spot removals for creatures, but you want to limit the amount of 1-for-1s in a MP deck. Still might be nice to run 1 or 2 in a pinch.
Overall, I'd say the biggest thing you need to look at is getting your mana curve back down to earth. Pick a couple of your big fatties you want to play with the most, and start cutting some of the big stuff in favor of an early defense. Vampire Nighthawk or other deathblockers are good early on when you want to turtle up. Recursion is good, or creatures like Doomed Traveler that "replace" themselves. Anything to help you survive early on until you hit your offensive curve.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
FTFY
No, seriously though, StP costs less money and less mana. It's not even remotely close. I'd only run Terminate if A) I were using a Modern banned list or B) I owned Terminates and didn't want to shell out 10 bucks for StPs (which is very reasonable).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Conspiracy versions are also cheap, have the good art and Black borders :).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I like Butcher of the Horde as a card, but I feel it's manacost can be very hard on turn4.
It should really be as many Bloodgift Demon as you can cram in there.
My Mardu-coloured deck has been through a few different versions, and I ended up settling with a non-degenerate version packed full of creatures.
Scourge of Geier Reach, Hamletback Goliath & Mass Mutiny were in there besides ones already mentioned.
My previous version was more powerful, but got me significant hate from everybody. Didn't stop me winning with it a few times... Ha!
The aim of the deck was simply to keep the field clear of creature threats with sweepers and sacrifice effects, land a Luminarch Ascension or Vicious Shadows and repeat said tactic of sweeping the field or spewing angels onto the field.
I had Day of Judgment, Abyssal Gatekeeper, Crackling Doom, Fault Line (instant speed), Merciless Eviction, some recursive threats including Reassembling Skeleton to carry living weapons from Stoneforge Mystic, Taurean Mauler and of course plenty of card draw. I should add that lifegain might be needed if you plan on lasting very long running this sort of hateful deck.
EDIT:
If I was going to continue this deck idea above and improve it, I think basing it around Luminarch Ascension and Cataclysm, with a small mana-curve would be a worthy way to go.
2x Alms Beast
2x Desecration Demon
3x Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Aurelia, the Warleader
2x Charmbreaker Devils
1x Inferno Titan
2x Sepulchral Primordial
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Fellwar Stone
4x Crackling Doom
1x Mimic Vat
2x Orim's Thunder
4x Syphon Mind
1x Whip of Erebos
2x Wrath of God
3x Mountain
4x Myriad Landscape
4x Nomad Outpost
6x Plains
7x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
(Note that this works for any style of ramp deck so if you want to play a deck full of 6 drops then 4x Worn Powerstone and 2x Coalition Relic is about what you need to jam them by turn 4.)
Otherwise your costs scare me. All of your Red cards require double Red, *** and Aurelia require WW, Desc Demon is BB, etc. If you were running my pattented 4x Reflecting Pool 4x Exotic Orchard 4x Nomad Outpost manabase this wouldn't bother me but given that your deck is mostly basics and Myriad Landscapes that seems a bit ambitious to me. Maybe the deck plays fine in practice, especially if you do add more mana rocks, but seeing all of those double costs scares me.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
4 Alms Beast
3 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Charmbreaker Devils
1 Sepulchral Primordial
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Fellwar Stone
2x Orzhov Signet
4x Crackling Doom
1x Mimic Vat
2x Orim's Thunder
4x Syphon Mind
2x Wrath of God
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Mountain
4 Nomad Outpost
6 Plains
7 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
orrrrrrrrrrrrr
3 Charmbreaker Devils
1 Sepulchral Primordial
Spells
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Fellwar Stone
2 Earthquake
3 Exsanguinate
2 Read the Bones
2 Orim's Thunder
4 Crackling Doom
3 Mimic Vat
2 Wrath of God
4 Syphon Mind
1 Mass Mutiny
1 Rise from the Grave
3 Mountain
4 Myriad Landscape
4 Nomad Outpost
6 Plains
8 Swamp
I don't really like the second deck mostly because I'd expect it to get run-over by creature-based strategies. I don't know what your meta looks like obviously but it feels too greedy for my tastes. I actually prefer something closer to your original list even though the mana was a bit wonky. The only thing I might suggest tweaking is using Wear // Tear or Return to Dust over Orim's Thunder since creatures are easy to kill and maybe cutting 1-2 removal spells for more mass removal and/or threats. I just don't like playing eight "spot removal" spells (I know that Crackling Doom isn't spot removal but still) in general. I'd rather run more mass removal and Ithink that far too few people play 8x Wrath of God (any variant) in their Control lists.
I dunno, Control is tough in multiplayer. Finding the right combination of ramp, draw, removal and win conditions isn't easy. Normally I would recommend something like Mind Stone which increases speed and reduces variance but it's obviously terrible in a 3 color deck. Cards like Alms Beast are hard to rate because on the one hand they block well but on the other hand they kinda don't do anything. Personally I would run 4x Day of Judgment (or whatever) in that slot and rely on things like Sepulchral Primordial to close the game out. Random 4 mana beaters with no evasive in decks without Rogue's Passage don't really interest me personally. I don't mind any of the 5+ CMC beaters that you posted (except for Kolaghan, I think that she's marginal) but the generic big 4 drops strike me as being "meh." I would just rather slam a mass removal spell than some big dumb idiot.
The Devils are cool assuming that they won't be gunned-down and they do make cards like Crackling Doom better.
Still not altogether sure about this one. I rarely play 3 color decks and when I do I play BUG or Abzan, not Mardu. I think that White and Red are the worst MP colors in general so my experience playing them together is very limited :/. I'm trying to think of a way to make this deck actively awesome but nothing is coming to mind :<.
EDIT: For what it's worth, of all the decks that you posted the first (the one in the OP) is my favorite. It's greedy as heck and missing some mana rocks but I love the overall power-level. I wouldn't play Whip (I'd play Palace Siege) and O.Thunder would be Wear // Tear but otherwise I'd just cut some durdles for some ramp and call it a day.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
First, I'd also prefer Swords to Plowshares over Terminate in a one-or-the-other situation as well. I did say that Terminate was ONE of BRW's best removal spells, not THE best, and I mentioned it mostly because it was in OP's maybe list already. We didn't even bring up some others like Path to Exile or Vindicate.
Second, it's been a long time since I've had to look at the price of either card. I'm actually amazed the StP is less money than Terminate. With that knowledge, yeah, Swords all the way.
I can only speak for myself but I was just "talking out loud," not addressing any one person/comment in particular (even though I quoted Sparticus's post I wasn't really talking to him either). I don't think either of us were trying to demean your suggestion; we simply wanted to highlight a cheaper and more powerful alternative.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I ditto this.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Creatures (7)
4 Abyssal Gatekeeper
1 Charmbreaker Devils
2 Sepulchral Primordial
Spells (28)
2 Earthquake
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
4 Fellwar Stone
1 Wear // Tear
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chromatic Lantern
4 Crackling Doom
2 Painful Truths
1 Mimic Vat
2 Syphon Mind
1 Utter End
2 Merciless Eviction
1 Grave Betrayal
25 Land o Lakes
With as much fatties and destruction that these 3 colors have, I think you could almost just have a bunch of singletons and the deck would still be fun and perform just fine.
I mean check out all this stuff I didn't even add in:
Creatures: Sun Titan, Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Grave Titan, Inferno Titan, Ashen Rider, Angel of Serenity, Aurelia, the Warleader, Thundermaw Hellkite, Balefire Dragon, Tariel, Reckoner of Souls, Gisela, Blade of Goldnight, etc.
Spells: Spreading Plague, Lethal Vapors, Debt to the Deathless, Wrath of God, Crux of Fate, Day of Judgment, Insurrection, Mass Mutiny, Return to Dust, Porphyry Nodes, Martyr's Bond, Terminate, Dreadbore, Terminus, etc.
2x Arid Mesa
3x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Godless Shrine
2x Isolated Chapel
2x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
2x Shambling Vent
1x Greater Gargadon
4x Blood Artist
2x Tithe Drinker
2x Boros Reckoner
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Butcher of the Horde
2x Olivia Voldaren
2x Grave Titan
1x Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Goblin Bombardment
4x Lingering Souls
2x Crackling Doom
1x Grasp of Fate
4x Syphon Mind
1x Grave Pact
1x Assemble the Legion
2x Mob Rule
It's obviously much more midrangy where yours is more control. It's certainly another option for a direction to go.
If you go with the control version, I would highly suggest that you play more Wrath of Gods and less spot removal. I'm also not sold on the 2/2 split of Syphon Mind and Painful Truths, but you know your table better than I do certainly. I just always feel like either Syphon Mind is better, or Painful Truths is better, so you should stick with the playset of whichever that is.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Why? Spells that require payments of life have immense diminishing returns. The first Toxic Deluge is an auto-include in 100% of Black decks but all subsequent copies are up for debate. It's not inherently good to draw 3-4 of them (or Painful Truths) because life payment + pressure from multiple adversaries + scaling burn (Earthquake, Exanguinate) ensure that it carries a very real opportunity cost. With that in mind I would virtually always play the first Painful Truths in a 3+ color Black deck but limiting yourself at 1-2 seems significantly more reasonable than blindly jamming 4.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Unless there was specific lifegain, I probably wouldn't ever run 4x Painful Truths, that's true.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Concentrate isn't playable in Legacy/Vintage (let alone a conditional variation). Painful Truths is. The lifeloss matters, no one is arguing otherwise, but the extra mana matters a lot more.
FWIW the only reason why I'm so high on Syphon Mind is because my metas are 6-8 players. In 4 player FFAs the card is a marginal playable at best. A conditional Concentrate isn't that special.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
So would you throw 2x Concentrate in your deck to complement 2x Painful Truths? Because if not, you are still proving my point that if Syphon Mind is good, the full four is better, and if it's not, 0 is better. If you would, than we're just going to disagree, which is fine. I personally the Syphon Mind because my playgroups tend to be big as well, but if people were to not show up, I wouldn't bother switching it out for the night. That's just me.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Do you guys think it would be viable to just add a bunch of 1 ofs? Or Maybe just take out the STP and add in other random stuff or more mass removal. Maybe some more good stuff creatures? A few Goblin Dark-Dwellers as another way to recur spells. Maybe a single Burning Wish to get a key card that will win the game/make a huge impact. Another Grave Betrayal and things like Balance would be fun.
Playing a split of Painful Truths and Syphon Minds is better than 4 of either. The former is the superior card in the context of a 4 player FFA (but actively bad in large quantities) and the latter is a reasonable, budget-minded card draw option for any Black deck. It's not the strongest draw spell in the game but it's still a Concentrate with upside which is serviceable if your deck doesn't have much lifegain and isn't playing Blue or Green. I see nothing wrong with his current configuration.
Let me ask you this. You think that the split has to be 4 or 0. Assuming that we agree with that logic what does he run in place of Syphon Mind to reliably generate card advantage?
1-ofs are fine for cards that have immense diminishing returns. Good examples would be things like Recurring Nightmare, Olivia Voldaren, Balthor the Defiled and Sire of Insanity. Some cards are powerful when drawn but are worthless in multiples and that's where 1-2 ofs shine.
Burning Wish is overpowered and any Red deck would ideally run 4 from a pure power-level perspective. It's the all-around most powerful Red spell in the entire game for multiplayer purposes. In a perfect world 100% of decks would blindly field 4 and never look back.
As much as I love Balance the midrange/rampy card draw deck isn't a great place to field it. You figure to have a whack of lands, cards in hand and even creatures at all times. You could still field it and it would probably be fine but the card isn't automatically busted in 100% of White decks.
Grave Betrayal is a reasonable 1-of but generally requires some mass removal support to excel.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
What about a janky equipment deck that kills everything? Here's an idea:
Creatures (18)
4 Relic Seeker
3 Frontline Medic
4 Lingering Souls
1 Tajic, Blade of the Legion
2 Stonehewer Giant
2 Zurgo Helmsmasher
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Sun Titan
1 Skullclamp
1 Wear // Tear
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Crackling Doom
2 Painful Truths
2 Chromatic Lantern
1 Syphon Mind
1 Batterskull
1 Worldslayer
1 Fervent Charge
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Argentum Armor
1 Vault of the Archangel
23 ETC
Zurgo Helmsmasher and Tajic, Blade of the Legion obviously are the guys that stay around. Lingering Souls helps give you creatures to help keep everything with alive with Frontline Medic. Godo, Bandit Warlord is good at grabbing an equipment and the double attack phase helps with the vigilance creatures.
Or there's something like an all in rampy build:
4 Relic Seeker
1 Tajic, Blade of the Legion
3 Stonehewer Giant
3 Zurgo Helmsmasher
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
2 Sudden Demise
1 Wear // Tear
1 Sword of the Animist
4 Fellwar Stone
2 Chromatic Lantern
2 Painful Truths
1 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Crackling Doom
2 Syphon Mind
1 Batterskull
2 Worldslayer
1 Argentum Armor
24 ETC