So, probably my absolute favorite archetype in all of magic is Jeskai Control. I've played it in multiple seasons of standard, it's still my deck of choice in modern, etc...
It's always been in the back of my mind to make a Jeskai Control multiplayer deck, but I've just not found something I like. Yet. I love my Esper ThopterSword deck, and won't ever deconstruct it, but Jeskai keeps calling me.
Is it just too fair of a wedge for multiplayer? Does Esper just do everything that it does, but better?
I assume that the synergies are obvious so I won't bother going over them in detail. Suffice it to say that drawing B.Act with any of these creatures in play is a good thing. Lifegain, card advantage reach, it's all there and it all comes attached to solid bodies and efficient forms of mass removal.
Another option is to abuse Jeskai Ascendancy. It provides good filtering and virtual card advantage as long as you play a bunch of Dig Through Times or Treasure Cruises (if your meta allows for it) and it can enable cards like Sacred Mesa to beat a table down relatively quickly. Any token-based win condition (Secure the Wastes, White Sun's Zenith) becomes significantly faster and easier to find. Alternatively you play "Pristine Angels" and protect them with your untapper. These decks don't want to play "creatures you control have vigilance" cards but if you can get the effect "for free" then these kinds of creatures start to look a lot better. Otherwise you just play the standard Plows, Wraths, Counters, whatever.
Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with a Sphinx's Relevation control deck. You just have to play more Wraths and fewer counters/spot removal spells but the threat of "going infinite" off of Elixir of Immortality is still very real and past a certain point you're literally drawing ~10 cards a turn if you want which usually means drawing enough Wraths/Counters to ensure that players have to win at instant-speed with counter backup or not at all. It's kinda like Capsize + Nevinyrral's Disk except way better. The drawback is that it's extremely slow and vulnerable to mana screw, you kinda want to hit every land drop every turn of the game, but I mean it's still a solid gameplan in some metas. Besides, you can always add one (you literally only need 1) "fast" win condition to the deck (say White Sun's Zenith) to put an end to games.
I assume that the synergies are obvious so I won't bother going over them in detail. Suffice it to say that drawing B.Act with any of these creatures in play is a good thing. Lifegain, card advantage reach, it's all there and it all comes attached to solid bodies and efficient forms of mass removal.
This is a very interesting shell, I must say. I would imagine that you would round it out with 26ish lands, and then 14 plows/counters/wraths/draw/etc... Do you run any recursion? Or has that simply been unneeded?
Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with a Sphinx's Relevation control deck. You just have to play more Wraths and fewer counters/spot removal spells but the threat of "going infinite" off of Elixir of Immortality is still very real and past a certain point you're literally drawing ~10 cards a turn if you want which usually means drawing enough Wraths/Counters to ensure that players have to win at instant-speed with counter backup or not at all. It's kinda like Capsize + Nevinyrral's Disk except way better. The drawback is that it's extremely slow and vulnerable to mana screw, you kinda want to hit every land drop every turn of the game, but I mean it's still a solid gameplan in some metas. Besides, you can always add one (you literally only need 1) "fast" win condition to the deck (say White Sun's Zenith) to put an end to games.
See this seems like a sweet shell as well, but my problem in a multiplayer setting has been this: what is red doing in this deck? I feel like all it does is make the mana base less consistent for no real gain... Why not just leave it at U/W? Or, if anything, throw in black for Innocent Blood & Life's Finale? I don't know... what does red actually add to this archetype? I guess with all of the lifegain you could throw in Fault Line as your "fast" wincon...
This is a very interesting shell, I must say. I would imagine that you would round it out with 26ish lands, and then 14 plows/counters/wraths/draw/etc... Do you run any recursion? Or has that simply been unneeded?
These aren't exactly the colors known for their recursion heh. The deck mostly just needs a couple very strong finishers that're resilient to most forms of removal, some draw and some spot removal/counters.
See this seems like a sweet shell as well, but my problem in a multiplayer setting has been this: what is red doing in this deck? I feel like all it does is make the mana base less consistent for no real gain...
Red isn't my favorite color but it's not so bad that of the thousands of cards that have been printed none of them are worth splashing for.
I guess the question that you need to ask yourself is "why are you forcing Jeskai in the first place?" Personally I don't really give a **** what colors my decks are so I'm not going to bend over backwards to try and sell you on any one combination. There's no points for trying new combos, having all of the pairs/wedges/shards accounted for, forcing splashes, etc. My decks are as many colors as they need to be and I don't see a compelling reason to force 3rd+ color additions if nothing is pulling you in that direction in the first place. That's why I don't really understand why you'd say "I want to make a Jeskai deck but I don't like any Red cards." So don't make a Jeskai deck lol. It's not like there's a gun to your head or anything. If you prefer to play decks in other colors, so be it.
If you're still looking for ideas, there are plenty of things to consider. Assemble the Legion plays well in Wrath decks. Godo, Bandit Warlord and Aurelia, the Warleader are very good in Batterskull decks with Stoneforge Mystics and Stonehewer Giants. Taking a bunch of combat phases with a bunch of powerful creatures is a big game. Gisela, Blade of Goldnight is also awesome and plays well in decks with Earthquakes and such. When I think of Jeskai I usually think of RW decks splashing Blue for card draw (and other things if needed but mostly card draw). RW has good critters, good removal, good finishers, etc. but outside of Outpost Siege it's not very good at ripping extra cards. That's where it's handy to have some Fact or Fictions, Sphinx's Revelations, etc. floating around to fill you up in the mid and lategame. Rev is especially nice since it doubles as lifegain which allows you to cut back on cards like SFGM.
The one card that you should seriously consider is Swans of Bryn Argoll. It's by far and away the most compelling reason to play Jeskai in my mind. Even if you can't afford 4x SFGM, 1-2 (or even 0!) is fine and Reckoner is still amazing in the early and midgame. From there you just run burn in lieu of Wraths knowing that Earthquake is a lot better when you get the Rev + Elixir stage of the game and just need a way to kill people. Casting a Quake to clear the board and dome people every other turn is a great way to go about that. Sudden Demise, Inferno Titan, there are plenty of solid finishers/removal spells to consider and the key here is that you have actual incentive to play with Red cards over White ones. A B.Act that draws 13 cards is many orders of magnitude better than a DoJ/Wrath. Insofar as both cards are roughly equivalent in a vacuum the upside of comboing burn with SFGM/Reckoner/Swans makes the switch well worth it. This is not some cutesy ***** that we're talking about here. Swans turns every piece of burn in your deck, even Lightning Bolt, into things like Ancestral Recall.
My reason for wanting to play Jeskai Control is strictly sentimental: it is the color wedge/archetype that has given me much success in 1v1 magic in both Modern & Standard. It's not that I don't like red cards: it's that the reason I like playing Jeskai work so much better in a 1v1 setting. Playing the tempo game with Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Electrolyze, Mana Leak, Remand, Snapcaster Mage, etc..., just doesn't work nearly as well against multiple people. In fact, in my experience, it's a losing game plan.
That said, your suggestions turned into a couple of potential deck lists:
The second list is more of the draw/go type of Jeskai Control that I am used to playing. It's got tons of inevitability, and is able to answer almost anything.
The first list seems pretty sweet too... I can only imagine how much life gain that thing can generate when it turns on.
When I play with Rev decks that have Elixir I prefer to run cards like Return to Dust than things like Oblivion Ring. I also like to include an exile-based CS such as Dissipate and usually a Final Judgment as well (obviously cutting one of their cheaper counterparts). I don't know if it's necessarily correct, it just makes me "feel good" knowing that I can exile "infinity things." I obviously don't know how necessary exile is for someone like you but for me it's head-and-shoulders above normal removal. Rather than playing 8 DoJs or whatever I like to sneak in a few Hallowed Burials/Terminuses (or whatever) that attack from a different angle.
Otherwise cantrips help. You can play like 4x Preordain, cut a land, a mass removal spell, shave the critters (never Swans), whatever. It's just better to play a ~24-25 land deck with 6-7 Wraths and whatnot but that also has 4-6 cantrips to smooth its draws. When I play the first deck, for example, I want to see Swans as frequently as possible in any amount. It's just the best card in the deck not close. As such I don't mind getting to see a lot of cards early on, and I'm more than happy to play things like Impulse to help find them. Any good, cheap cantrip basically.
Good points all around. Exile is incredibly important for me as well... which is why I included Detention Sphere, as it hits all perms. However, I totally see what you mean about using instants/sorceries in Rev + Elixir decks. Makes a ton of sense. And I hadn't even thought about Dissipate (I haven't thought about that card in a good while, actually). Not sure how useful Terminus will end up, but I can see running as a one-of.
Terminus isn't required by any means, I just like the card in general. The point is that I like to have something on my deck that can mass tuck/exile. You could always run Austere Command though as another out to Arts/Enchs and just keep the 1 Judgment. I just hate losing games that hit turn 12 when I'm playing a Control deck so I'm always looking to cover as many bases as I reasonably can. Even if you just have 1-2 "silver bullet" answer spells it's not that hard to find them when you're Reving.
You'll probably end up shaving some Chain Reactions, I normally do, but it's a fine card to have and it's not too expensive. Those are the first things to go when I need to make room for flex slots, more card draw, more cantrips, more counters, etc. Still I think the card is like 50 cents or whatever so you may as well get 4. It's still very good with all of your creatures. Your deck is a bit soft to Arts/Echns in my mind which is why I might add the Command, a second Return to Dust and maybe try and squeeze in a Wear // Tear. I don't know your meta obv but 3-4 is just barely enough in my experience. Again, feel free to shave a CR or 2 and swapping Terminus to A.Command is another solid option.
For all the times I hate on Elixir, this is not one of those occasions where the card is bad. Being decked is a LEGITIMATE concern and with Rev you can literally cycle through your entire deck over and over past a certain point. I don't like the card in general but this isn't one of those situations where the effect is meaningless. I would basically never cut the card unless my meta was very fast (combo or aggro, either/or).
The only real concern that I have, is that I haven't really played Rev + Elixir decks with the fetches before. I played USA Rev + Elixir quite a bit during the RTR season of standard, but obviously there were no fetches. Obviously the fetches are going to become useless later on... does it feel bad to shuffle them back in your library? If so, might Dig Through Time be a decent add in to exile my used fetches?
Also wish I could fit Celestial Colonnade into the land package... But I am afraid that a non-fetchable ETBT U/W land is just not a good idea in this shell... lol. Not to mention that I have a lot of mana sinks in here already.
The only real concern that I have, is that I haven't really played Rev + Elixir decks with the fetches before. I played USA Rev + Elixir quite a bit during the RTR season of standard, but obviously there were no fetches. Obviously the fetches are going to become useless later on... does it feel bad to shuffle them back in your library? If so, might Dig Through Time be a decent add in to exile my used fetches?
It obviously doesn't feel good to recycle worthless fetches but at the same time it's usually not the end of the world. Besides, all it takes is an Urborg from someone else to turn them into real cards. If need be you can always cut back on them.
DTT to exile fetches is good, the only problem is figuring out a way to add them. If you have a couple lying around and can make room for the, by all means. Just keep in mind that DTT + Elixir + Rev isn't the best synergy of all time so it's unwise to go ham and jam too many of them in this badboy.
Also wish I could fit Celestial Colonnade into the land package... But I am afraid that a non-fetchable ETBT U/W land is just not a good idea in this shell... lol. Not to mention that I have a lot of mana sinks in here already.
Uhhh why would it be a bad idea? Your deck's curve is relatively high and you'll have a ton of do-nothing turns in the early stages of the game. An ETBT land is irrelevant in that sense. Also, while your deck has mana sinks, it's not as though you're punished for having more. You're using land slots, not spell slots, to add them after all. Colonnades are low opportunity cost attackers/blockers and I don't see how they could hurt more than help.
Also wish I could fit Celestial Colonnade into the land package... But I am afraid that a non-fetchable ETBT U/W land is just not a good idea in this shell... lol. Not to mention that I have a lot of mana sinks in here already.
Uhhh why would it be a bad idea? Your deck's curve is relatively high and you'll have a ton of do-nothing turns in the early stages of the game. An ETBT land is irrelevant in that sense. Also, while your deck has mana sinks, it's not as though you're punished for having more. You're using land slots, not spell slots, to add them after all. Colonnades are low opportunity cost attackers/blockers and I don't see how they could hurt more than help.
Meh... true. I just want to make sure that I am in the position to cast things when I need to... And I am still wired to think I need to make sure I can hold Lightning Bolt/Path to Exile up on turn one, and then have Lightning Helix/Mana Leak/Remand mana on turn 2... And this deck has some more greedy colored mana constraints, so I was leery of cutting down on things like Hallowed Fountain for sources I can't pull out of a hat if needed. But, then again, I only run 1x Rev in my 1v1 deck, so I rely more on cantrips and fetches. Basically, I am used to playing these kinds of decks in a much faster 1v1 setting. I will absolutely test this with some Colonnades.
The 1-of Terminus has actually been greatly over performing for me. This deck is a blast to play, and really does some disgusting things - I have greatly undervalued Swans of Bryn Argoll... that card is a major "attack someone else please" blocker, who happens to have evasion... and chains delightfully well into Revs.
I highly recommend this shell to anyone who hasn't tried it.
I have greatly undervalued Swans of Bryn Argoll... that card is a major "attack someone else please" blocker...
I find it's the opposite lol. If anything the card draws more hate which I why I tend to overload these kinds of decks with mass removal. It's also why I really like the lifegain that SFGM provides because sometimes you just plain need to take a hit of ~6 to avoid having your opponent draw ~6 cards. Eating a few hits for 2-3 is also fine when you're gaining it back triple digits at a time which helps when your opponents are trying to cash their small drops in for 2-3 cards once they becomes more-or-less obsolete. I rarely-if-ever leave the thing back on D because I usually find that there's very little incentive to block with it.
I have greatly undervalued Swans of Bryn Argoll... that card is a major "attack someone else please" blocker...
I find it's the opposite lol. If anything the card draws more hate which I why I tend to overload these kinds of decks with mass removal. It's also why I really like the lifegain that SFGM provides because sometimes you just plain need to take a hit of ~6 to avoid having your opponent draw ~6 cards. Eating a few hits for 2-3 is also fine when you're gaining it back triple digits at a time which helps when your opponents are trying to cash their small drops in for 2-3 cards once they becomes more-or-less obsolete. I rarely-if-ever leave the thing back on D because I usually find that there's very little incentive to block with it.
Psssst... TOTALLY read the card wrong. Lol. Oopsies.
Still love the Swan... Just changes the way I play them a bit.
Oh you can't Pyroblast a Swans of Bryn Argoll? My bad, here I thought that cards with Blue mana costs were Blue cards!
Free piece of advice; when I say that "my favorite Jeskai shell includes X" and proceed to list White, Blue and Red cards you're not doing anyone any favors by telling me what colors of mana I need to cast my spells. There's a very good reason why I didn't state it as "my favorite way to spend White, Blue and Red mana is..." The shell that I proposed is Jeskai and if it just so happens that the mana requirements are forgiving then that only helps the people trying to build the deck for themselves.
It's about the mana base. Jeskai deck implies Jeskai mana base, not Boros mana base.
Silly me. Here I thought a deck with White, Blue and Red cards would be considered a Jeskai deck .
Your argument is nonsensical. By your logic any deck with City of Brass (or whatever) is a 5 color deck. I could build a mono-Green stompy deck with Mana Confluences and according to you it would be classified as "5 color stompy" and not "mono-Green stompy."
Who cares what extra colors are on hybrid cards? It's about the mana base. Jeskai deck implies Jeskai mana base, not Boros mana base.
Pretty sure that my mana base is Jeskai... Last I checked it had Islands, Plains, and Mountains.
When someone says their favorite shell INCLUDES certain cards, that doesn't mean those are all the colors they play with. He even said that he plays it mostly Boros with Blue splashed mostly for draw spells.
Yes, I would classify that as 5 Color Red. Glare of Heresy has targets. Gainsay has targets. Perish has targets. Etc. That, to me (and the rules), constitutes a 5 color deck. If you want to call it RDW because that's easier for some people to understand, I can't stop you (or others), but if Gainsay and Perish have targets then I don't understand how you can argue that a deck is mono-Red. It objectively isn't. If you want to argue that hybrid mana is "or," I guess I can't stop you, but from a color rules perspective (which is what I care about) it's an "and." A BW hybrid card is a Black and White card. That's not open to interpretation; that's just a fact. I can't stop you from ignoring rules and facts, you're allowed to base your own opinions on whatever you want, I just think that adhering to the rules of the game (as opposed to personal opinions that deviate from them) leads to more productive discussions. The best argument that you can make to support the notion that the deck that you listed is RDW is that "a bunch of people called it that." I.e. your best defense is a logical fallacy (appeal to popularity). Most people approve of X therefore X is true. Sorry guy, I don't care what other people call it, I care about what it actually is (based on objective facts).
I take it I'm not getting a reply to my question then? Because according to you ever deck with Mana Confluence is a 5 color deck and that just seems absurd to me.
P.S. Don't think for a second that I'm being insincere. Mono-Black, to me, means mono-Black. If your deck has Tezzeret's Gambit or Nightveil Specter then it's not mono-Black. You can call it mono-Black, that's probably easier for most people, but I personally wouldn't ever acknowledge the decks as such. They're B/u Control/Devotion/Whatever decks at that point. As someone who identifies as a mono-Black mage color identity means a lot to me so I don't care about "what's easier for people to understand." I don't look at Gambit and see a "colorless" card nor the Specter and see a "Black or Blue" card. I see Blue cards that people are lazily passing off as Black. They have Blue mana symbols, they can be countered by Gainsay, I can't play them in Chainer, Dementia Master EDH, etc. That never has and never will be mono-Black as far as I'm (and, more importantly, the rules) are concerned.
The most blatantly worthless thing about posting this is that those 20 cards are not the only cards in the deck. The U will be specifically for card draw, and counterspells. Those weren't listed in the shell, because they aren't the shell of the deck.
What is the practical value of this extremely technical definition? For all intents and purposes that deck is a lot closer to a mono-black deck, so describing it as a Dimir deck is misleading.
No it's not. It's a deck that consists of Blue and Black cards. I'm not misleading anyone; I'm accurately representing the colors of the deck.
What you're describing is the personal incredulity fallacy. Just because something is difficult to understand (i.e. complicated) doesn't mean that it's false. My definition may be technical, complicated, whatever but it's accurate. With respect to the practical value, that's obvious. It has the same practical value that taxonomy possess. By clearly defining groups of decks based on shared characteristics it becomes possible to explore their relationships, patterns, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats, etc. in accurate and meaningful ways. It's also a classification system that carries no disadvantages/risks once learned because of its precise, technical nature. That cannot be said about your classification system.
Take your deck for example. If you were to tell someone that they were playing against RDW they might remove Radiant Purge from their deck. This is because the "anything goes" deck classification system, while simple, is also woefully ineffective at conveying precise information that could be relevant to someone looking to combat an invasive predator. On the other hand, my classification of "5 Color Red" provides substantially more relevant information with respect to deck contents at no significant opportunity cost. B/u Control/Devotion vs Mono-Black is the exact same thing. The practical value stems from your ability to explore the precise relationships that a given deck will have in a given Magic sphere and what can be used to help/hinder it.
To put it another way, imagine that one day a city becomes infested with beetles. What would enable the fastest, most effective means of eradicating the new menace; developing a plan to eradicate "beetles" or accurately classifying the species and consulting experts to derive a specific solution to a specific problem?
Unless you can come up with someone better than "it's complicated" (which is a logical fallacy) I don't see how you can rag on a precise, technical form of taxonomy that, once learned, carries no disadvantages as compared to other classification systems.
What about a 2-color deck with a random Chromanticore listed in the sideboard "because there was room"?
Assuming that the deck has no intention to cast it and/or board it in, nothing. A formal classification system is designed to highlight specific relationships that a deck will have within specific Magic spheres and any irrelavant aspects should be ignored. You could add Worldspine Wurm to a deck with 20 Mountains and, again, you'd simply ignore it.
If, however, the cards are present as a response to a specific threat like oh, say, Show and Tell, you could classify the decks as "Anti-Show Dimir" or whatever. There's precedent when Tooth and Nail was a deck to beat and Blue decks would maindeck Twincast + [2 powerful creatures] to combat the menace. While it wouldn't make sense to classify these decks in a vacuum it does make sense to classify them as they existed in their specific Magic spheres because they were purposely built with a specific threat in mind.
[I can't tell if you guys are just having an intellectual discussion or if there are hurt feelings involved...]
I personally thought that the observation that one could build the deck with just a Boros mana base if so desired was valuable. Not everyone might have seen that. But a discussion of what constitutes a three color deck, well, less immediately useful to designing this deck...
This deck is a blast to play, and really does some disgusting things - I have greatly undervalued Swans of Bryn Argoll... that card is a major "attack someone else please" blocker, who happens to have evasion... and chains delightfully well into Revs.
I highly recommend this shell to anyone who hasn't tried it.
I am curious - when you posted this, had you actually tried it? It just seemed unlikely that everyone in the group would have been unfamiliar with the card. Particularly with a couple of the recentarticles.
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It's always been in the back of my mind to make a Jeskai Control multiplayer deck, but I've just not found something I like. Yet. I love my Esper ThopterSword deck, and won't ever deconstruct it, but Jeskai keeps calling me.
Is it just too fair of a wedge for multiplayer? Does Esper just do everything that it does, but better?
What might a good shell look like?
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
4x Soulfire Grand Master
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
4x Chain Reaction
4x Blasphemous Act
I assume that the synergies are obvious so I won't bother going over them in detail. Suffice it to say that drawing B.Act with any of these creatures in play is a good thing. Lifegain, card advantage reach, it's all there and it all comes attached to solid bodies and efficient forms of mass removal.
Otherwise, you may want to consider an Isochron Scepter and/or Sunforger list that abuses all of the usual suspects (Swords to Plowshares, Orim's Chant, Counterspell) while noting that Odds // Ends is castable by both cards using the ends mode. Odds // Ends is "fine" to cast normally but when you jam it on a Scepter it starts to look dece.
Another option is to abuse Jeskai Ascendancy. It provides good filtering and virtual card advantage as long as you play a bunch of Dig Through Times or Treasure Cruises (if your meta allows for it) and it can enable cards like Sacred Mesa to beat a table down relatively quickly. Any token-based win condition (Secure the Wastes, White Sun's Zenith) becomes significantly faster and easier to find. Alternatively you play "Pristine Angels" and protect them with your untapper. These decks don't want to play "creatures you control have vigilance" cards but if you can get the effect "for free" then these kinds of creatures start to look a lot better. Otherwise you just play the standard Plows, Wraths, Counters, whatever.
Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with a Sphinx's Relevation control deck. You just have to play more Wraths and fewer counters/spot removal spells but the threat of "going infinite" off of Elixir of Immortality is still very real and past a certain point you're literally drawing ~10 cards a turn if you want which usually means drawing enough Wraths/Counters to ensure that players have to win at instant-speed with counter backup or not at all. It's kinda like Capsize + Nevinyrral's Disk except way better. The drawback is that it's extremely slow and vulnerable to mana screw, you kinda want to hit every land drop every turn of the game, but I mean it's still a solid gameplan in some metas. Besides, you can always add one (you literally only need 1) "fast" win condition to the deck (say White Sun's Zenith) to put an end to games.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
This is a very interesting shell, I must say. I would imagine that you would round it out with 26ish lands, and then 14 plows/counters/wraths/draw/etc... Do you run any recursion? Or has that simply been unneeded?
See this seems like a sweet shell as well, but my problem in a multiplayer setting has been this: what is red doing in this deck? I feel like all it does is make the mana base less consistent for no real gain... Why not just leave it at U/W? Or, if anything, throw in black for Innocent Blood & Life's Finale? I don't know... what does red actually add to this archetype? I guess with all of the lifegain you could throw in Fault Line as your "fast" wincon...
I will mull these ideas around... thanks!
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
These aren't exactly the colors known for their recursion heh. The deck mostly just needs a couple very strong finishers that're resilient to most forms of removal, some draw and some spot removal/counters.
Red isn't my favorite color but it's not so bad that of the thousands of cards that have been printed none of them are worth splashing for.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
If you're still looking for ideas, there are plenty of things to consider. Assemble the Legion plays well in Wrath decks. Godo, Bandit Warlord and Aurelia, the Warleader are very good in Batterskull decks with Stoneforge Mystics and Stonehewer Giants. Taking a bunch of combat phases with a bunch of powerful creatures is a big game. Gisela, Blade of Goldnight is also awesome and plays well in decks with Earthquakes and such. When I think of Jeskai I usually think of RW decks splashing Blue for card draw (and other things if needed but mostly card draw). RW has good critters, good removal, good finishers, etc. but outside of Outpost Siege it's not very good at ripping extra cards. That's where it's handy to have some Fact or Fictions, Sphinx's Revelations, etc. floating around to fill you up in the mid and lategame. Rev is especially nice since it doubles as lifegain which allows you to cut back on cards like SFGM.
The one card that you should seriously consider is Swans of Bryn Argoll. It's by far and away the most compelling reason to play Jeskai in my mind. Even if you can't afford 4x SFGM, 1-2 (or even 0!) is fine and Reckoner is still amazing in the early and midgame. From there you just run burn in lieu of Wraths knowing that Earthquake is a lot better when you get the Rev + Elixir stage of the game and just need a way to kill people. Casting a Quake to clear the board and dome people every other turn is a great way to go about that. Sudden Demise, Inferno Titan, there are plenty of solid finishers/removal spells to consider and the key here is that you have actual incentive to play with Red cards over White ones. A B.Act that draws 13 cards is many orders of magnitude better than a DoJ/Wrath. Insofar as both cards are roughly equivalent in a vacuum the upside of comboing burn with SFGM/Reckoner/Swans makes the switch well worth it. This is not some cutesy ***** that we're talking about here. Swans turns every piece of burn in your deck, even Lightning Bolt, into things like Ancestral Recall.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
That said, your suggestions turned into a couple of potential deck lists:
2x Arid Mesa
2x Clifftop Retreat
4x Flooded Strand
4x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Soulfire Grand Master
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
Other Spells:
4x Blasphemous Act
4x Chain Reaction
2x Counterspell
2x Detention Sphere
4x Earthquake
1x Elixir of Immortality
4x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Wear // Tear
and
2x Arid Mesa
3x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
3x Glacial Fortress
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mountain
3x Plains
4x Steam Vents
1x Assemble the Legion
4x Counterspell
2x Cyclonic Rift
4x Day of Judgment
3x Detention Sphere
3x Earthquake
1x Elixir of Immortality
2x Fact or Fiction
4x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Supreme Verdict
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x White Sun's Zenith
The second list is more of the draw/go type of Jeskai Control that I am used to playing. It's got tons of inevitability, and is able to answer almost anything.
The first list seems pretty sweet too... I can only imagine how much life gain that thing can generate when it turns on.
Any thoughts/suggestions?
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Otherwise cantrips help. You can play like 4x Preordain, cut a land, a mass removal spell, shave the critters (never Swans), whatever. It's just better to play a ~24-25 land deck with 6-7 Wraths and whatnot but that also has 4-6 cantrips to smooth its draws. When I play the first deck, for example, I want to see Swans as frequently as possible in any amount. It's just the best card in the deck not close. As such I don't mind getting to see a lot of cards early on, and I'm more than happy to play things like Impulse to help find them. Any good, cheap cantrip basically.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
How about something more like:
3x Arid Mesa
2x Clifftop Retreat
4x Flooded Strand
4x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
1x Mountain
2x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Boros Reckoner
3x Soulfire Grand Master
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
Other Spells (24):
4x Blasphemous Act
4x Chain Reaction
2x Dissipate
1x Return to Dust
2x Earthquake
1x Final Judgment
1x Elixir of Immortality
4x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Terminus
4x Preordain
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
You'll probably end up shaving some Chain Reactions, I normally do, but it's a fine card to have and it's not too expensive. Those are the first things to go when I need to make room for flex slots, more card draw, more cantrips, more counters, etc. Still I think the card is like 50 cents or whatever so you may as well get 4. It's still very good with all of your creatures. Your deck is a bit soft to Arts/Echns in my mind which is why I might add the Command, a second Return to Dust and maybe try and squeeze in a Wear // Tear. I don't know your meta obv but 3-4 is just barely enough in my experience. Again, feel free to shave a CR or 2 and swapping Terminus to A.Command is another solid option.
For all the times I hate on Elixir, this is not one of those occasions where the card is bad. Being decked is a LEGITIMATE concern and with Rev you can literally cycle through your entire deck over and over past a certain point. I don't like the card in general but this isn't one of those situations where the effect is meaningless. I would basically never cut the card unless my meta was very fast (combo or aggro, either/or).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Also wish I could fit Celestial Colonnade into the land package... But I am afraid that a non-fetchable ETBT U/W land is just not a good idea in this shell... lol. Not to mention that I have a lot of mana sinks in here already.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
It obviously doesn't feel good to recycle worthless fetches but at the same time it's usually not the end of the world. Besides, all it takes is an Urborg from someone else to turn them into real cards. If need be you can always cut back on them.
DTT to exile fetches is good, the only problem is figuring out a way to add them. If you have a couple lying around and can make room for the, by all means. Just keep in mind that DTT + Elixir + Rev isn't the best synergy of all time so it's unwise to go ham and jam too many of them in this badboy.
Uhhh why would it be a bad idea? Your deck's curve is relatively high and you'll have a ton of do-nothing turns in the early stages of the game. An ETBT land is irrelevant in that sense. Also, while your deck has mana sinks, it's not as though you're punished for having more. You're using land slots, not spell slots, to add them after all. Colonnades are low opportunity cost attackers/blockers and I don't see how they could hurt more than help.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Meh... true. I just want to make sure that I am in the position to cast things when I need to... And I am still wired to think I need to make sure I can hold Lightning Bolt/Path to Exile up on turn one, and then have Lightning Helix/Mana Leak/Remand mana on turn 2... And this deck has some more greedy colored mana constraints, so I was leery of cutting down on things like Hallowed Fountain for sources I can't pull out of a hat if needed. But, then again, I only run 1x Rev in my 1v1 deck, so I rely more on cantrips and fetches. Basically, I am used to playing these kinds of decks in a much faster 1v1 setting. I will absolutely test this with some Colonnades.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
I went with the following:
3x Arid Mesa
2x Clifftop Retreat
2x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Celestial Colonnade
1x Island
1x Mountain
2x Plains
4x Sacred Foundry
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
4x Boros Reckoner
3x Soulfire Grand Master
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
Other Spells (24):
4x Blasphemous Act
2x Chain Reaction
2x Dissipate
2x Return to Dust
1x Austere Command
2x Earthquake
1x Final Judgment
1x Elixir of Immortality
4x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Terminus
4x Preordain
The 1-of Terminus has actually been greatly over performing for me. This deck is a blast to play, and really does some disgusting things - I have greatly undervalued Swans of Bryn Argoll... that card is a major "attack someone else please" blocker, who happens to have evasion... and chains delightfully well into Revs.
I highly recommend this shell to anyone who hasn't tried it.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
I find it's the opposite lol. If anything the card draws more hate which I why I tend to overload these kinds of decks with mass removal. It's also why I really like the lifegain that SFGM provides because sometimes you just plain need to take a hit of ~6 to avoid having your opponent draw ~6 cards. Eating a few hits for 2-3 is also fine when you're gaining it back triple digits at a time which helps when your opponents are trying to cash their small drops in for 2-3 cards once they becomes more-or-less obsolete. I rarely-if-ever leave the thing back on D because I usually find that there's very little incentive to block with it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Psssst... TOTALLY read the card wrong. Lol. Oopsies.
Still love the Swan... Just changes the way I play them a bit.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Oh Jesus the card that you're describing would be ridiculously OP XD.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Lol yeah!
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Oh you can't Pyroblast a Swans of Bryn Argoll? My bad, here I thought that cards with Blue mana costs were Blue cards!
Free piece of advice; when I say that "my favorite Jeskai shell includes X" and proceed to list White, Blue and Red cards you're not doing anyone any favors by telling me what colors of mana I need to cast my spells. There's a very good reason why I didn't state it as "my favorite way to spend White, Blue and Red mana is..." The shell that I proposed is Jeskai and if it just so happens that the mana requirements are forgiving then that only helps the people trying to build the deck for themselves.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Silly me. Here I thought a deck with White, Blue and Red cards would be considered a Jeskai deck .
Your argument is nonsensical. By your logic any deck with City of Brass (or whatever) is a 5 color deck. I could build a mono-Green stompy deck with Mana Confluences and according to you it would be classified as "5 color stompy" and not "mono-Green stompy."
Nice try though.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Pretty sure that my mana base is Jeskai... Last I checked it had Islands, Plains, and Mountains.
When someone says their favorite shell INCLUDES certain cards, that doesn't mean those are all the colors they play with. He even said that he plays it mostly Boros with Blue splashed mostly for draw spells.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Yes, I would classify that as 5 Color Red. Glare of Heresy has targets. Gainsay has targets. Perish has targets. Etc. That, to me (and the rules), constitutes a 5 color deck. If you want to call it RDW because that's easier for some people to understand, I can't stop you (or others), but if Gainsay and Perish have targets then I don't understand how you can argue that a deck is mono-Red. It objectively isn't. If you want to argue that hybrid mana is "or," I guess I can't stop you, but from a color rules perspective (which is what I care about) it's an "and." A BW hybrid card is a Black and White card. That's not open to interpretation; that's just a fact. I can't stop you from ignoring rules and facts, you're allowed to base your own opinions on whatever you want, I just think that adhering to the rules of the game (as opposed to personal opinions that deviate from them) leads to more productive discussions. The best argument that you can make to support the notion that the deck that you listed is RDW is that "a bunch of people called it that." I.e. your best defense is a logical fallacy (appeal to popularity). Most people approve of X therefore X is true. Sorry guy, I don't care what other people call it, I care about what it actually is (based on objective facts).
I take it I'm not getting a reply to my question then? Because according to you ever deck with Mana Confluence is a 5 color deck and that just seems absurd to me.
P.S. Don't think for a second that I'm being insincere. Mono-Black, to me, means mono-Black. If your deck has Tezzeret's Gambit or Nightveil Specter then it's not mono-Black. You can call it mono-Black, that's probably easier for most people, but I personally wouldn't ever acknowledge the decks as such. They're B/u Control/Devotion/Whatever decks at that point. As someone who identifies as a mono-Black mage color identity means a lot to me so I don't care about "what's easier for people to understand." I don't look at Gambit and see a "colorless" card nor the Specter and see a "Black or Blue" card. I see Blue cards that people are lazily passing off as Black. They have Blue mana symbols, they can be countered by Gainsay, I can't play them in Chainer, Dementia Master EDH, etc. That never has and never will be mono-Black as far as I'm (and, more importantly, the rules) are concerned.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
The most blatantly worthless thing about posting this is that those 20 cards are not the only cards in the deck. The U will be specifically for card draw, and counterspells. Those weren't listed in the shell, because they aren't the shell of the deck.
During the THS season of Standard, a Jeskai or Esper mage could have said "my favorite Jeskai/Esper shell involves something like Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Ætherling, Elixir of Immortality, Azorius Charm, Detention Sphere, Dissolve, Jace, Architect of Thought, and Elspeth, Sun's Champion." Obviously, none of those cards require B or R, but who cares? They obviously weren't mentioning the reasons for their 3rd color splashes... just the basic shell. It would be dumb and annoying for someone to point out that an Azorius mage could cast all those cards just as easily.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
No it's not. It's a deck that consists of Blue and Black cards. I'm not misleading anyone; I'm accurately representing the colors of the deck.
What you're describing is the personal incredulity fallacy. Just because something is difficult to understand (i.e. complicated) doesn't mean that it's false. My definition may be technical, complicated, whatever but it's accurate. With respect to the practical value, that's obvious. It has the same practical value that taxonomy possess. By clearly defining groups of decks based on shared characteristics it becomes possible to explore their relationships, patterns, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats, etc. in accurate and meaningful ways. It's also a classification system that carries no disadvantages/risks once learned because of its precise, technical nature. That cannot be said about your classification system.
Take your deck for example. If you were to tell someone that they were playing against RDW they might remove Radiant Purge from their deck. This is because the "anything goes" deck classification system, while simple, is also woefully ineffective at conveying precise information that could be relevant to someone looking to combat an invasive predator. On the other hand, my classification of "5 Color Red" provides substantially more relevant information with respect to deck contents at no significant opportunity cost. B/u Control/Devotion vs Mono-Black is the exact same thing. The practical value stems from your ability to explore the precise relationships that a given deck will have in a given Magic sphere and what can be used to help/hinder it.
To put it another way, imagine that one day a city becomes infested with beetles. What would enable the fastest, most effective means of eradicating the new menace; developing a plan to eradicate "beetles" or accurately classifying the species and consulting experts to derive a specific solution to a specific problem?
Unless you can come up with someone better than "it's complicated" (which is a logical fallacy) I don't see how you can rag on a precise, technical form of taxonomy that, once learned, carries no disadvantages as compared to other classification systems.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Like I said, an appeal to complexity is a personal incredulity fallacy.
NO Elves
Assuming that the deck has no intention to cast it and/or board it in, nothing. A formal classification system is designed to highlight specific relationships that a deck will have within specific Magic spheres and any irrelavant aspects should be ignored. You could add Worldspine Wurm to a deck with 20 Mountains and, again, you'd simply ignore it.
If, however, the cards are present as a response to a specific threat like oh, say, Show and Tell, you could classify the decks as "Anti-Show Dimir" or whatever. There's precedent when Tooth and Nail was a deck to beat and Blue decks would maindeck Twincast + [2 powerful creatures] to combat the menace. While it wouldn't make sense to classify these decks in a vacuum it does make sense to classify them as they existed in their specific Magic spheres because they were purposely built with a specific threat in mind.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
[I can't tell if you guys are just having an intellectual discussion or if there are hurt feelings involved...]
I personally thought that the observation that one could build the deck with just a Boros mana base if so desired was valuable. Not everyone might have seen that. But a discussion of what constitutes a three color deck, well, less immediately useful to designing this deck...
I am curious - when you posted this, had you actually tried it? It just seemed unlikely that everyone in the group would have been unfamiliar with the card. Particularly with a couple of the recent articles.