As such I need to figure out what the deck list looks like without these cards.
At current there is next to no artifact removal with the meta very creature heavy.
It should also be noted that I am not interested in doing anything infinite or otherwise broken and that the deck needs to be kept to a reasonable budget.
All things considered this is where I am at with the new list:
What is the moaning about Abyssal Persecutor? "Aw I can't lose the game life is so unfair, lets kill Mephy so I can lose"? Sounds really weird to me.
Because the card doesn't actually have a significant drawback. It's trivial for these kinds of decks to produce a sac outlet which makes the card a 6/6 flying trampler for 4. Unless you have removal that's going to kill you extremely quickly and he can always sac and recur the thing if he wants to pick players off.
What is the moaning about Abyssal Persecutor? "Aw I can't lose the game life is so unfair, lets kill Mephy so I can lose"? Sounds really weird to me. I just wonder what happens with Desecration Demon "Aw we can tap his creature by sacrificing, now somebody NEEDS TO tap it or we lose : S lets kill Mephy so we cant sacrifice our dudes by accident."
I also have some questions for you:
1. How is the lich dude working? Seems kinda random, but does it work? And you even play 4!
2. Are you sure you want to cut a loxodon hammer? They are really good.
3. Your deck seems to use a lot of mana. Could you benefit from Cabal Coffers? You would need to change the land base in that case.
But jeah deck seems fun. Has a lot of recursion and being able to get like a skeleton back from a graveyard and equipping him with a Loxodon Hammer + Grafted Wargear seems good and fun. Personally for me it would be difficult to choose between running Vampire Nighthawks, Phylactery Liches, and other 3 drops you play. I would test few games and run what feels the best.
Moaning is moaning, not much more to be said. Rather then dig my heels in I am happy to just remove the card so our group can get on with enjoying the game.
As for your questions:
1. With the non existent artifact removal in my meta Phylactery Lich is more often then not an indestructible 5/5 for 3 mana, else an awkward draw with no artifacts. Positives have outweighed the negatives thus far.
2. Lashwrithe feels like it has more end game potential so I thought I would give it a trial at a single slot. Worst case is it under performs and I just swap it back out.
3. You're right the deck is mana hungry and Cabal Coffers could potentially help. Vault of Whispers and thus Phylactery Lich would most likely have to be cut make this happen, food for thought.
Definitely spoiled for choices, thanks for the input.
I never considered the majority of the cards you have suggested, thank you for bringing these to my attention.
Flesh Carver is of particular interest and will find a home in the deck I believe.
Also thanks for taking the time to put a list together, very interesting.
Given the reduction in creature body sizes, nil evasion and removal of equipment do you feel that you can put enough power on the board to get the job done in a large game?
Considering the loss of the life gain component, nil flying defense and the number of creatures that cannot block at all do you think the deck will be able to go the distance?
Given the reduction in creature body sizes, nil evasion and removal of equipment do you feel that you can put enough power on the board to get the job done in a large game?
Considering the loss of the life gain component, nil flying defense and the number of creatures that cannot block at all do you think the deck will be able to go the distance?
The deck probably still needs some tweaks but I think that it has potential. I actually somehow completely missed Stinkweed Imp and I built the deck assuming that it had 4 of them in there. It would have to be re-worked to include them. Otherwise, I'm not too concerned about flying defense, especially if the deck starts to play cards like Attrition.
The lack of lifegain is bad, this I'll grant you. That would definitely have to be changed.
The creatures are smaller but the synergy is higher in this type of deck. The primary goal, in my mind is to assemble some generic board involving Fleshbag Marauder and a revival engine at which point it'll be hard for creature-based decks to compete. This is especially true once Dictate of Erebos shows up. Given that you also have things like Attrition + recursive threats you'll just plain grind them out eventually. At some point you'll Dredge into a Sepulchral Primordial (maybe the deck needs a second) at which point you can't really lose.
The deck needs some teaks but I feel like the clunky equipment package isn't really needed and I'm not a very big fan of Phylactery Lich in general since he always feels so inconsistent.
The three and five mana slots are very crowded as I am sure you have noticed, Abyssal Persecutor would help alleviate this slightly (I can just run Desecration Demon or whatever).
All things considered slightly tweaking numbers the deck could look something like this:
Hey, I like it! Still, shouldn't we probably just go all the way on Demigods? I mean, why run 3 and not 4? Six 5 drops is a lot, I recognize that, but once you can cast one Demigod there's basically no other card in your deck that you'd rather draw and we have some recursion engines to make the card sing. Also, Buried Alive for Demigods when we have one in hand? With a Tortured Existence in play? Good luck beating that!
Hey, I like it! Still, shouldn't we probably just go all the way on Demigods? I mean, why run 3 and not 4? Six 5 drops is a lot, I recognize that, but once you can cast one Demigod there's basically no other card in your deck that you'd rather draw and we have some recursion engines to make the card sing. Also, Buried Alive for Demigods when we have one in hand? With a Tortured Existence in play? Good luck beating that!
You're right, four copies of Demigod of Revenge is better then three (20 flying hasted power is a player eliminated a turn potentially and as such very relevant).
I have opted to cut Flesh Carver and Ophiomancer as the three casting slot is over crowded and both cards are not essential to the decks game plan.
This made way for a second Grave Pact also further smoothing the decks curve.
With these changes I think the list is very close to being final:
That's perfectly fine. Do what you gotta do to make the deck work for you and your budget. Dictate isn't so much worse than Pact as to render the deck unplayable without it.
That's perfectly fine. Do what you gotta do to make the deck work for you and your budget. Dictate isn't so much worse than Pact as to render the deck unplayable without it.
Except he wasn't talking about Dictate, but the God card.
Except he wasn't talking about Dictate, but the God card.
Woops, my bad. That's not much removal for a Black deck which seems a bit iffy to me. You could still make the swap, Erebos is a powerful card, but I do like something that interacts with what other players are doing. Still, no Gray Merchant means no lifegain so Erebos can't really be used to draw cards and with a bunch of Demigods the deck doesn't exactly need more beaters.
I have been playing with the Veilborn Aggro list posted in Cz's black primer to reasonably good success and enjoyment.
16 Swamp
4 Leechridden Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
Creatures
4 Hunted Horror
4 Phylactery Lich
2 Dusk Urchins
2 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Disciple of Bolas
2 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Veilborn Ghoul
1 Xathrid Demon
1 Sepulchral Primordial
4 Darksteel Axe
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Tortured Existence
2 Journeyer's Kite
Lately our play group has been conspiring against me turning Hunted Horror into a liability.
Abyssal Persecutor is attracting unrelenting moaning due to some of the tables inability to interact with it.
Journeyer's Kite and Dusk Urchins have felt a tad clunky.
As such I need to figure out what the deck list looks like without these cards.
At current there is next to no artifact removal with the meta very creature heavy.
It should also be noted that I am not interested in doing anything infinite or otherwise broken and that the deck needs to be kept to a reasonable budget.
All things considered this is where I am at with the new list:
16 Swamp
4 Leechridden Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
Creatures
3 Reassembling Skeleton
4 Phylactery Lich
2 Grim Haruspex
2 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Disciple of Bolas
2 Desecration Demon
3 Veilborn Ghoul
1 Xathrid Demon
1 Sepulchral Primordial
3 Darksteel Axe
3 Grafted Wargear
1 Lashwrithe
1 Loxodon Warhammer
Enchantments
3 Tortured Existence
Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Dark Realms
Reassembling Skeleton feels like a good fit given the equipment sub theme and the decks engine.
I feel Grafted Wargear and Grim Haruspex both compliment what the deck is trying to do.
Desecration Demon was the only comparable size body to Abyssal Persecutor for the same casting cost that I could find.
Although more vulnerable Liliana of the Dark Realms offers more than Journeyer's Kite I believe.
Any feedback on the alterations or alternative suggestions would be greatly appreciated, constructive criticism is welcome.
Because the card doesn't actually have a significant drawback. It's trivial for these kinds of decks to produce a sac outlet which makes the card a 6/6 flying trampler for 4. Unless you have removal that's going to kill you extremely quickly and he can always sac and recur the thing if he wants to pick players off.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
So let's see:
21x Swamp
3x Unholy Grotto
Creatures (25)
4x Gravecrawler
4x Wight of Precinct Six
2x Golgari Thug
4x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Risen Executioner
2x Krovikan Horror
3x Veilborn Ghoul
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
1x Grave Titan
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Sepulchral Primordial
3x Tortured Existence
2x Necromancer's Stockpile
1x Buried Alive
1x Corpseweft
2x Attrition
2x Dictate of Erebos
And before anyone asks I'm purposely excluding Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Moaning is moaning, not much more to be said. Rather then dig my heels in I am happy to just remove the card so our group can get on with enjoying the game.
As for your questions:
1. With the non existent artifact removal in my meta Phylactery Lich is more often then not an indestructible 5/5 for 3 mana, else an awkward draw with no artifacts. Positives have outweighed the negatives thus far.
2. Lashwrithe feels like it has more end game potential so I thought I would give it a trial at a single slot. Worst case is it under performs and I just swap it back out.
3. You're right the deck is mana hungry and Cabal Coffers could potentially help. Vault of Whispers and thus Phylactery Lich would most likely have to be cut make this happen, food for thought.
Definitely spoiled for choices, thanks for the input.
I never considered the majority of the cards you have suggested, thank you for bringing these to my attention.
Flesh Carver is of particular interest and will find a home in the deck I believe.
Also thanks for taking the time to put a list together, very interesting.
Given the reduction in creature body sizes, nil evasion and removal of equipment do you feel that you can put enough power on the board to get the job done in a large game?
Considering the loss of the life gain component, nil flying defense and the number of creatures that cannot block at all do you think the deck will be able to go the distance?
I was talking to myself as much as i was talking to you lol XD. I also wanted to consider new directions to take the deck :).
The card is SWEET. 3 mana 2/2 with evasion that ignores removal and that offers potential upside? Sign me up!
It's rough but it highlights some new cards and ideas if nothing else.
The deck probably still needs some tweaks but I think that it has potential. I actually somehow completely missed Stinkweed Imp and I built the deck assuming that it had 4 of them in there. It would have to be re-worked to include them. Otherwise, I'm not too concerned about flying defense, especially if the deck starts to play cards like Attrition.
The lack of lifegain is bad, this I'll grant you. That would definitely have to be changed.
The creatures are smaller but the synergy is higher in this type of deck. The primary goal, in my mind is to assemble some generic board involving Fleshbag Marauder and a revival engine at which point it'll be hard for creature-based decks to compete. This is especially true once Dictate of Erebos shows up. Given that you also have things like Attrition + recursive threats you'll just plain grind them out eventually. At some point you'll Dredge into a Sepulchral Primordial (maybe the deck needs a second) at which point you can't really lose.
The deck needs some teaks but I feel like the clunky equipment package isn't really needed and I'm not a very big fan of Phylactery Lich in general since he always feels so inconsistent.
Maybe something closer to:
21x Swamp
3x Unholy Grotto
Creatures (26)
2x Abyssal Gatekeeper
4x Wight of Precinct Six
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Merciless Executioner
2x Ophiomancer
1x Flesh Carver
1x Krovikan Horror
1x Disciple of Bolas
2x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2x Veilborn Ghoul
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
1x Sepulchral Primordial
4x Tortured Existence
2x Necromancer's Stockpile
1x Buried Alive
1x Whip of Erebos
2x Dictate of Erebos
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Thanks for taking the time to post another list.
Do you think that Gravecrawler should still have two slots given its synergy with Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Necromancer's Stockpile?
I am not sure if Abyssal Gatekeeper is actually needed with the full play set of Fleshbag Marauder, thoughts?
Given the dredge theme what are your thoughts on running three or four copies of Demigod of Revenge as the finisher instead of Sepulchral Primordial?
The three and five mana slots are very crowded as I am sure you have noticed, Abyssal Persecutor would help alleviate this slightly (I can just run Desecration Demon or whatever).
All things considered slightly tweaking numbers the deck could look something like this:
21 Swamp
3 Unholy Grotto
Creatures (28)
2 Gravecrawler
4 Wight of Precinct Six
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Ophiomancer
1 Flesh Carver
2 Disciple of Bolas
2 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Veilborn Ghoul
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
3 Demigod of Revenge
3 Tortured Existence
2 Necromancer's Stockpile
1 Buried Alive
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Grave Pact
Maybe cut a Disciple of Bolas?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
You're right, four copies of Demigod of Revenge is better then three (20 flying hasted power is a player eliminated a turn potentially and as such very relevant).
I have opted to cut Flesh Carver and Ophiomancer as the three casting slot is over crowded and both cards are not essential to the decks game plan.
This made way for a second Grave Pact also further smoothing the decks curve.
With these changes I think the list is very close to being final:
21 Swamp
3 Unholy Grotto
Creatures (27)
2 Gravecrawler
4 Wight of Precinct Six
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Fleshbag Marauder
2 Disciple of Bolas
2 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Veilborn Ghoul
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Demigod of Revenge
3 Tortured Existence
2 Necromancer's Stockpile
1 Buried Alive
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Grave Pact
That's perfectly fine. Do what you gotta do to make the deck work for you and your budget. Dictate isn't so much worse than Pact as to render the deck unplayable without it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Except he wasn't talking about Dictate, but the God card.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Woops, my bad. That's not much removal for a Black deck which seems a bit iffy to me. You could still make the swap, Erebos is a powerful card, but I do like something that interacts with what other players are doing. Still, no Gray Merchant means no lifegain so Erebos can't really be used to draw cards and with a bunch of Demigods the deck doesn't exactly need more beaters.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold