I've been meaning to build an updated GW Tokens deck and I figure that Secure the Wastes is incentive enough to pull the trigger. I want something with a lot of lategame punch, plenty of lifegain and a fair amount of resilience. I'll probably have to shave a few things to add some additional draw spells but this seems decent so far. I actively like Sylvan Offering and I'd peg it as being the best card in the deck. It puts a lot of power on the board across a throng of bodies and I don't really care if they're not all on my side of the field. As it stands the deck can completely ignore spot removal and even mass removal isn't the end of the world. Secure the Wastes at EOT with a Beastmaster Ascension/Cathars' Crusade is usually good enough to kill the control players off. I don't really want to play cards like Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and/or Rhys the Redeemed mostly because I don't want people to get value from their removal spells when playing against me. People seem to be running fewer and fewer Wraths in general and I'm not really expecting to win games where board clears are cast every 2-3 circuits to begin with.
Aura Mutation is almost strictly worse than Aura Shards as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather have the significantly more powerful and persistent effect. I could certainly see myself playing Mutation in this style of deck, the power-level is there, it's just hard to compete with Aura Shards which is a God tier removal engine as far as I'm concerned. One of the biggest incentives to play GW is to gain access to the card (in my opinion obviously).
Glare of Subdual doesn't usually interest me in multiplayer unless I'm playing with some sort of Prohet of Kruphix effect. Tapping down opposing critters isn't bad or anything, you don't need a "hard lock" for the card to be worthwhile, it's just not an effect that I'm necessarily interested in. I should probably try 1 just to see how it goes though.
Advent of the Wurm isn't a card that I would ever play in this style of deck. The other ones I've all considered and/or toyed around with but a generic 5/5 beater isn't what I want to be casting in a multiplayer setting. The primary reason is because it dies to spot removal and nothing else in my deck cares about it. You can obviously target things like Thragtusk with it, I'm not suggesting otherwise, you're just never getting any value from those kinds of exchanges. I also don't ever expect to win games by turning one big dude sideways so it's just not a card that interests me at all. It's a very fair card and fair isn't where I want against a slew of opponents. I want a gameplan that may be slightly hit-and-miss but one that actually has the potential to take home the W.
Mirari's Wake is a card that I'm torn on. Basically I can't figure out which wins more games between Cathars' Crusade and it. They both have their ups and downs and they both do insane things with persistent token producers and X spells. Ultimately I ended up cutting Wakes for Shamanic Revelation because I felt that the deck needed card draw but I'm not sure if that's correct. I don't want to jam seven or more 5 drops into this thing but at the same time they're all so freaking good.
For the sake of argument, what do people think of:
Armada Wurm was never that appealing to me in the first place and Thragtusk was mostly there for lifegain and resilience. I also don't think that I need too much ramp, just enough to hit my land drops and get up to 5 mana. Mirari's Wake is probably just a lot better than something like Yavimaya Elder as long as I field something that will hit its land drops up to 5.
My biggest concern is that the deck feels slow. I don't want/need something lightning fast or anything but the early-game feels weak. I don't want to run Call of the Conclave (aka Watchwolf) or any other bad card that won't have value past turn 2 but the deck does seem a bit clunky.
I really like Sylvan Offering. The raw stats that the card generates for you is absurd so as long as you're able to "make nice" with the person that you're handing an army over to it's just absolutely bonkers.
Did the deck feel too slow and/or clunky? It has a number of expensive + situational cards and not much to cast on the first 3 turns of the game. It kinda "starts on 4" which makes me think that it might need to play more 2 CMC ramp.
Aura Mutation is almost strictly worse than Aura Shards as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather have the significantly more powerful and persistent effect. I could certainly see myself playing Mutation in this style of deck, the power-level is there, it's just hard to compete with Aura Shards which is a God tier removal engine as far as I'm concerned. One of the biggest incentives to play GW is to gain access to the card (in my opinion obviously).
This. And in these decks, if you don't have access to Aura Shards, Nullmage Shepherd should be coming a fairly close second, IMHO. No point in having a one-shot effect when you can basically be denying your opponents every artifact and enchantment they want to play.
I have always played Windbrisk Heights in token decks - it's $3 a pop, which is more than some would want to spend, but flipping up any of our enchantments is big game.
I also made room for for 4 Nature's Lore in addition to Sakura-Tribe Elder. The deck really wants to ramp out a 4 drop on turn 3. Otherwise you seem to really fall behind.
What does your current List look like ? Is the Elspeth good?
Nothing's set in stone just yet. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is good I just don't really want to shell out for her while she's still being played in Standard. I could easily see her replacing Hour of Reckoning though.
I mentioned Aura Mutation and Advent of the Wurm just for the surprise factor and against control / counter decks. But we already have all these instant token cards, maybe they arent needed after all.
"Surprise factor" isn't much of an incentive to play either card in this instance. Hitting someone for 5-7 once or twice isn't a game winning line so even if I fly under a Counterspell and/or mass removal spell it's not as though I'm setting myself up to win. Aura Mutation is also very marginal given that it only hits a single Enchantment.
I feel like Collective Blessing is almost strictly worse than Cathars' Crusade. Obviously it has immediate impact whereas the Crusade doesn't but I'd rather have the cheaper spell that snowballs much harder out of a control. My deck has a lot of X spells and token engines and on average I think I'm going to get more value from the Crusade. That being said I couldn't see it mattering much one way or another. Both cards are exceptionally powerful in this archetype so either should work fine.
True Conviction is in a similar boat. It's worse if I don't have any other pump effects out but it's significantly better if I do. I like the lifegain aspect of the card though, especially now that I've cut the Tusks. I don't think there's any one objectively correct mix of finishers in this style of deck because all of these options are very powerful.
Part of me wants to go down to 24 lands with slightly more 2 CMC ramp. I basically want to hit my first 5 land drops and I want to reliably cast a ramp spell on turn 2. I don't want to add cards like Raise the Alarm to the deck because they're just too weak past turn 2. I want to play 4x Secure the Wastes and 4x Sylvan Offering and I want to cast them on X=3 on turn 3 as my first "real" play of the match. I don't want to use creature/Enchantment-based ramp (such as Wild Growth) because I want to maximize my synergy with Mirari's Wake.
With that in mind, I have some ideas about what to change. I think that I might actually axe the Intangible Virtues even though I really like the card. The fact of the matter is that something has to come out and the card doesn't serve a significant purpose. When I do attack it's usually for trillions and I don't care if I have to sit back and do nothing for the vast majority of the game. I'd rather curve out with ramp into threats into finishers than jam a "small ball" pump effect that will help me get early damage across. Vigilance is nice, I like it, but at the same time I don't need it when my plan is to Beastmaster Ascension with 20 creatures on my side of the field. When I win it's going to be convincing and I won't need to worry about blocks. The main thing that it does is make me harder to attack, pumping my team is great, the problem is that if my spell comes on turn 4 then it's not really protecting me from anything. If the deck had a lower curve it would probably stay but if my first "real" spells are hitting on turns 3 and 4 then it's just not doing much for me.
I like it. I wouldn't play the full eight 2 CMC ramp spells (I'll probably cut 1) and I'm content with 2 Virtues but I'll probably try something close to that. I'm still very partial to Hour of Reckoning, I couldn't see myself cutting it entirely, but Elspeth is an interesting substitute. My biggest worry about big E is that I don't like having exactly one good removal target in my decks and since most people run stuff like evasive beaters, O-Rings, Vindicates, X burn spells, etc. I'm always hesitant to pull the trigger on 'Walkers.
Windbrisk Heights vs Krosan Verge is interesting. I like the mana in decks with Wakes, X spells, 5+ CMC threats, etc. but the "free card" also seems sweet. Hell, I'll just cut Khalni Garden because I don't even like that card to begin with.
I agree with basically everything you said, especially about Parallel Lives being a worse version of Wake. I can easily shave at least a copy and keep 3 Wakes that way. I was never going to cut Sacred Mesa but extra reinforcement never hurts :). I do agree that Sprout Swarm is slow and win more, I just really like that card XD. It'll get cut.
I think that I'm going to cut Luminarch Ascension in the interest of diversity. I really like that card but I don't want to overplay it. I'm guilty of fielding it far too frequently in MP if for no other reason than to jam it on turn 2 and (some % of the time) ride it to victory. It doesn't happen very often (maybe 1 in every 10 games) but sometimes people just plain can't remove it and there's basically no realistic way to grind past it with fair cards/methods. Still, this is more of a "fair game of Magic" deck so I think I'll remove it for now.
I'll jam a True Conviction in the final build. It's a card that's always impressed me when it's been played even though I've been (rather unfairly) critical of the thing in the past. I don't want to add more than 1 though because I'm fine if I don't draw one every game, it's bad in multiples, I don't want too many 6 drops, etc. Everything that you touched on basically :P.
I'm going to cut Glare of Subdual. I think that the card is powerful but it's just not my style. I don't want to "set upkeep stops" on each player and consider what/when to tap things down. It's annoying for everyone involved, takes up too much time, is very unfun, etc. People obviously don't enjoy EOT Secure the Wastes into Beastmaster Ascension (or whatever) but at least those kinds of sequences end the game quickly. I don't want to play a 2 hour game of Magic in which people are miserable as I tap their relevant threats every turn. Anyways, the point is that I'm not removing it for power-level reasons but for sanity ones.
I want a bit more ramp because the deck is just plain too slow but I absolutely do not want to play with bad cards like Raise the Alarm. I think that I'm going to be greedy and go with 6 ramp spells for the ~70% probability to have one for turn 2 because I don't really want to draw more than 1 ramp spell per game and the deck is tight on space.
It was significantly more consistent than my previous iterations, felt much more powerful and kept winning games as the night went on. Worship was amazing and led to an inordinate amount of free wins. I played against some Black decks featuring Gary + Exsang and they literally couldn't beat the card. Benevolent Offering over-performed every time that it was drawn so I eventually jammed the full 4. 6-9 power worth of fliers is a big game (Intangible Virtue) and I'd usually give them to another strong player (i.e. one with a strong board position) so that we could raze people down at an insane pace. I often had something like Intangible Virtue out so they could never attack/race me which meant that it was usually just us destroying other people with my 4 mana "9/9 flyer." People were literally dying in 2 circuits from my one card because I would just attack whoever the person I gave the tokens to attacked. Obviously they'd try and fight and back but their removal was basically worthless, their creatures were worse and it was hard to race the deck with lifegain and Worship. Even though people could remove my Enchantments they could only remove so many of them (other people were playing powerful cards too obviously) so eventually I could stick a Worship or a Mirari's Wake and that was often good enough to get the job done.
I opted to cut the draw, a move which I'm not entirely sold on, but it didn't feel horrible. Previously I ran into problems with the card when I drew too many institutional spells and too few token producers but the new list felt a lot more consistent on the creature front. I've also managed to avoid playing bad cards for the time being and I still don't want to make room for something like Raise the Alarm.
For the record, I make liberal use the of the free multiplayer mulligan when I play which is why my decks are often a touch on the greedy side. 6 rampers and 4 Virtues isn't enough to guarantee a turn 2 play by any means but your chances are very good all things being equal. Playing 4 Virtues means that you can cast Secure the Wastes (or whatever) at X=2 on turn 3 and not feel horrible about it. A 3 mana 4/4 is "fine." I really didn't want to play with 8 ramp spells but I was happy to go up to 4 Virtues, especially after upping the Benevolent Offering count. The (immune to spot removal) 6/6 flyer that gains 6 life for 4 was amazing for me and the "free" 3/3 flyer that another player received usually worked in my favor.
I mentally compared Hour of Reckoning to Elspeth in my games and I'm still not convinced that the latter is superior. Plague Wind is a very strong Magic card when you win games by turning creatures sideways and there were a lot of easy ways for people to remove her from what I could glean. I wanted Wraths way more than I wanted additional token producers so I don't think that I'd cut Hours from the deck if I were to play it again. That being said Increasing Devotion was "meh" so I'd probably make that swap.
Worship does not protect against either of those cards at all.
I knew that, and I knew I knew that, so I have no idea why I wrote that. Like I previously explained I played with deck numerous times but at first it was just 3 of us and the Black player scooped on like turn 6 when I had a Worship out. At the time I just mentally assumed that he couldn't beat the card but it was probably because his draw was bad and he was stuck on lands. He never played the deck again when we got more people (it was "Spike" deck so he only plays it when the table is full of "Spikes"). Bear in mind that there's always a lot of people and a lot going on so we get a lot of premature scoops when the game "stops being fun" so that people can go play Xbox or put a stream on the TV or whatever. Anyways, I was still tweaking the deck so I wasn't paying attention much to anything else
Say, how important is the G? It seems very replaceable.
I tried lots of variations on the deck. Mono-Green with Beacon of Creation and Howl of the Night Pack, mono-White with Blade Splicer, Spectral Procession, Hero of Bladehold, Wingmate Roc, basically everything worked fine. The main thing that I learned as the night went on was that Benevolent Offering was a lot better (for me, YMMV) than Spectral Procession and that all of the expensive spells were worse than I thought they'd be. Hour of Reckoning was always insane but basically everything else underperformed. Mirari's Wake certainly didn't blow me away like it did back when I was a kid. Aura Shards was still amazing even though I ended up cutting 1. It wasn't correct I just wanted to test Worships. At the time the card seemed insane but thinking back on it I don't know how much work they actually did and how much "false praise" I attributed to them.
Sprout Swarm is close to being the best of the lot. That thing just churns once you start getting critical masses of tokens on the board. I would also put Sacred Mesa on the hitlist... it's good, but I find myself annoyed by the upkeep these days. You basically have to commit to sinking mana into it each turn to keep it chugging.
Two others I would at least consider - Storm Herd, Gelatinous Genesis.
Storm Herd has a strike-rate of winning the game for me around 50% of the time I even resolve it (and the other 50% of the time, it still has a big impact). I have seen Gelatinous Genesis resolved with X=33 before. Even with X at about 5, it's still game-swinging.
Sprout Swarm is close to being the best of the lot. That thing just churns once you start getting critical masses of tokens on the board. I would also put Sacred Mesa on the hitlist... it's good, but I find myself annoyed by the upkeep these days. You basically have to commit to sinking mana into it each turn to keep it chugging.
I completely disagree with you noting that we just plain have different metagames and thus have different needs. I personally am very worried about mass removal and so I don't look at Sprout Swarm and see an endgame bomb. I see an extremely slow, clunky and vulnerable win condition that's bad against the cards that are inherently good against me. I put the card in my deck, I realize this, but I don't claim to be anything other than an extremely greedy Magic player. Moreover, I don't care if Mesa has an upkeep cost nor if it's a mana sink. When I cast it it's going to be as "the last spell" that I care about casting. I'll have 8-10 lands in play (probably), 0-1 cards in hand and nothing better to do than to convert mana into evasive beaters. The reason why I like this card is because it's another "must answer" Enchantment that cannot be beaten through traditional means. If your plan is to play creature removal, cast dudes and turn them sideways, draw cards, etc. then it's "too bad so sad" because I'm going to win that war. Still, again, different metagames, different metagame needs. Sprout Swarm is indeed a bomb if people aren't clearing your board and I did manage go off with Beacon of Creation and Howl of the Night Pack in some of my games (which was sweet). Still, I was going to win those games very easily regardless and I still needed to resolve a Beastmaster Ascension to close the game out in a timely fashion. Like, 20 1/1s doesn't even come remotely close to winning a multiplayer match.
Two others I would at least consider - Storm Herd, Gelatinous Genesis.
Storm Herd has a strike-rate of winning the game for me around 50% of the time I even resolve it (and the other 50% of the time, it still has a big impact). I have seen Gelatinous Genesis resolved with X=33 before. Even with X at about 5, it's still game-swinging.
In testing I wasn't lacking in finishing power. I actually had to bring the curve down a lot to stay competitive which meant eschewing big finishers that I never needed to begin with.
do you have a mono W decklist ? I really like Wingmate Roc now that he is affordable ^^ That would be awesome.
Kind Regards
I tested a few things, mostly because I wanted to give a Mastery of the Unseen deck a shot. Still, I also wanted to play a full-on token deck so I tried multiple things. Here were (roughly) my lists:
I never nailed a very good list down because I only tried it like once and there were dozens and dozens of cards that I wanted to try. The deck was too slow.
Here's a copy of my GW Token deck that I've had some success within my meta. I know Voice of Resurgence has a bad rap, but it really has helped as it always feels like someone else wants to play on my turn. Haha.
Haha okay, I have a bad rap with VoR in my group because I quite literally bought a handful of boosters, net 4 and because the price on them are still stupid high.
Haha okay, I have a bad rap with VoR in my group because I quite literally bought a handful of boosters, net 4 and because the price on them are still stupid high.
Oh, I get it... you're the one in your group with the lucky booster hands?
The Spike in my group bought a sum total of five Modern Masters 2015 boosters and pulled a Goyf and a Bob. Anger ensued.
Haha okay, I have a bad rap with VoR in my group because I quite literally bought a handful of boosters, net 4 and because the price on them are still stupid high.
Oh, I get it... you're the one in your group with the lucky booster hands?
The Spike in my group bought a sum total of five Modern Masters 2015 boosters and pulled a Goyf and a Bob. Anger ensued.
I bet. Although, the anger probably didn't match Goyfgate.
7x Forest
6x Plains
4x Selesnya Guildgate
4x Sunpetal Grove
2x Windbrisk Heights
2x Gavony Township
Creatures (4)
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Secure the Wastes
4x Sylvan Offering
2x Rampant Growth
4x Intangible Virtue
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Aura Shards
2x Worship
1x Sacred Mesa
4x Benevolent Offering
2x Parallel Lives
2x Increasing Devotion
2x Mirari's Wake
1x True Conviction
2x Hour of Reckoning
I've been meaning to build an updated GW Tokens deck and I figure that Secure the Wastes is incentive enough to pull the trigger. I want something with a lot of lategame punch, plenty of lifegain and a fair amount of resilience. I'll probably have to shave a few things to add some additional draw spells but this seems decent so far. I actively like Sylvan Offering and I'd peg it as being the best card in the deck. It puts a lot of power on the board across a throng of bodies and I don't really care if they're not all on my side of the field. As it stands the deck can completely ignore spot removal and even mass removal isn't the end of the world. Secure the Wastes at EOT with a Beastmaster Ascension/Cathars' Crusade is usually good enough to kill the control players off. I don't really want to play cards like Trostani, Selesnya's Voice and/or Rhys the Redeemed mostly because I don't want people to get value from their removal spells when playing against me. People seem to be running fewer and fewer Wraths in general and I'm not really expecting to win games where board clears are cast every 2-3 circuits to begin with.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Aura Mutation is almost strictly worse than Aura Shards as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather have the significantly more powerful and persistent effect. I could certainly see myself playing Mutation in this style of deck, the power-level is there, it's just hard to compete with Aura Shards which is a God tier removal engine as far as I'm concerned. One of the biggest incentives to play GW is to gain access to the card (in my opinion obviously).
Glare of Subdual doesn't usually interest me in multiplayer unless I'm playing with some sort of Prohet of Kruphix effect. Tapping down opposing critters isn't bad or anything, you don't need a "hard lock" for the card to be worthwhile, it's just not an effect that I'm necessarily interested in. I should probably try 1 just to see how it goes though.
Advent of the Wurm isn't a card that I would ever play in this style of deck. The other ones I've all considered and/or toyed around with but a generic 5/5 beater isn't what I want to be casting in a multiplayer setting. The primary reason is because it dies to spot removal and nothing else in my deck cares about it. You can obviously target things like Thragtusk with it, I'm not suggesting otherwise, you're just never getting any value from those kinds of exchanges. I also don't ever expect to win games by turning one big dude sideways so it's just not a card that interests me at all. It's a very fair card and fair isn't where I want against a slew of opponents. I want a gameplan that may be slightly hit-and-miss but one that actually has the potential to take home the W.
Mirari's Wake is a card that I'm torn on. Basically I can't figure out which wins more games between Cathars' Crusade and it. They both have their ups and downs and they both do insane things with persistent token producers and X spells. Ultimately I ended up cutting Wakes for Shamanic Revelation because I felt that the deck needed card draw but I'm not sure if that's correct. I don't want to jam seven or more 5 drops into this thing but at the same time they're all so freaking good.
For the sake of argument, what do people think of:
8x Forest
5x Plains
4x Krosan Verge
4x Sunpetal Grove
2x Khalni Garden
2x Gavony Township
Creatures (3)
3x Sakura-Tribe Elder
Spells (32)
4x Secure the Wastes
4x Sylvan Offering
1x Luminarch Ascension
2x Intangible Virtue
1x Sprout Swarm
1x Beastmaster Ascension
2x Aura Shards
1x White Sun's Zenith
1x Sacred Mesa
1x Decree of Justice
2x Benevolent Offering
1x Glare of Subdual
3x Parallel Lives
1x Cathars' Crusade
2x Shamanic Revelation
3x Mirari's Wake
2x Hour of Reckoning
Armada Wurm was never that appealing to me in the first place and Thragtusk was mostly there for lifegain and resilience. I also don't think that I need too much ramp, just enough to hit my land drops and get up to 5 mana. Mirari's Wake is probably just a lot better than something like Yavimaya Elder as long as I field something that will hit its land drops up to 5.
My biggest concern is that the deck feels slow. I don't want/need something lightning fast or anything but the early-game feels weak. I don't want to run Call of the Conclave (aka Watchwolf) or any other bad card that won't have value past turn 2 but the deck does seem a bit clunky.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I really like Sylvan Offering. The raw stats that the card generates for you is absurd so as long as you're able to "make nice" with the person that you're handing an army over to it's just absolutely bonkers.
Secure the Wastes into Beastmaster Ascension and/or Shamanic Revelation was the main reason why I wanted to try this style of deck out. That ability to dodge mass removal and "win the game" in the process seems very strong.
Did the deck feel too slow and/or clunky? It has a number of expensive + situational cards and not much to cast on the first 3 turns of the game. It kinda "starts on 4" which makes me think that it might need to play more 2 CMC ramp.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
This. And in these decks, if you don't have access to Aura Shards, Nullmage Shepherd should be coming a fairly close second, IMHO. No point in having a one-shot effect when you can basically be denying your opponents every artifact and enchantment they want to play.
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Armada Wurm always feels disappointing to play, which is weird for 10 power for 6. I am putting in Elspeth, Sun's Champion for it.
I have always played Windbrisk Heights in token decks - it's $3 a pop, which is more than some would want to spend, but flipping up any of our enchantments is big game.
I also made room for for 4 Nature's Lore in addition to Sakura-Tribe Elder. The deck really wants to ramp out a 4 drop on turn 3. Otherwise you seem to really fall behind.
Nothing's set in stone just yet. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is good I just don't really want to shell out for her while she's still being played in Standard. I could easily see her replacing Hour of Reckoning though.
"Surprise factor" isn't much of an incentive to play either card in this instance. Hitting someone for 5-7 once or twice isn't a game winning line so even if I fly under a Counterspell and/or mass removal spell it's not as though I'm setting myself up to win. Aura Mutation is also very marginal given that it only hits a single Enchantment.
I feel like Collective Blessing is almost strictly worse than Cathars' Crusade. Obviously it has immediate impact whereas the Crusade doesn't but I'd rather have the cheaper spell that snowballs much harder out of a control. My deck has a lot of X spells and token engines and on average I think I'm going to get more value from the Crusade. That being said I couldn't see it mattering much one way or another. Both cards are exceptionally powerful in this archetype so either should work fine.
True Conviction is in a similar boat. It's worse if I don't have any other pump effects out but it's significantly better if I do. I like the lifegain aspect of the card though, especially now that I've cut the Tusks. I don't think there's any one objectively correct mix of finishers in this style of deck because all of these options are very powerful.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
With that in mind, I have some ideas about what to change. I think that I might actually axe the Intangible Virtues even though I really like the card. The fact of the matter is that something has to come out and the card doesn't serve a significant purpose. When I do attack it's usually for trillions and I don't care if I have to sit back and do nothing for the vast majority of the game. I'd rather curve out with ramp into threats into finishers than jam a "small ball" pump effect that will help me get early damage across. Vigilance is nice, I like it, but at the same time I don't need it when my plan is to Beastmaster Ascension with 20 creatures on my side of the field. When I win it's going to be convincing and I won't need to worry about blocks. The main thing that it does is make me harder to attack, pumping my team is great, the problem is that if my spell comes on turn 4 then it's not really protecting me from anything. If the deck had a lower curve it would probably stay but if my first "real" spells are hitting on turns 3 and 4 then it's just not doing much for me.
I also think that one of the lategame spells has to come out. Sprout Swarm, Luminarch Ascension, Sacred Mesa, Decree of Justice, White Sun's Zenith, I don't need like 5-6 of these kinds of cards. In the dark I think that White Sun's Zenith is probably the worst but I'm also not sold on Decree of Justice. Sprout Swarm is also slightly suspect but I really love that card. I think that it's actually just plain win-more in multiplayer, especially if I don't have Awakening effects, so I'll probably give that one the axe.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Nature's Lore
Tokens
3 Benevolent Offering
4 Secure the Wastes
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Sylvan Offering
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Aura Shards
1 Beastmaster Ascension
3 Intangible Virtue
2 Mirari's Wake
3 Parallel Lives
1 True Conviction
2 Shamanic Revelation
8 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Gavony Township
5 Plains
4 Temple Gardens
4 Windbrisk Heights
If you can tuck virtually any of the "Anthems" under Windbrisk Heights, you're going to have a good time.
Windbrisk Heights vs Krosan Verge is interesting. I like the mana in decks with Wakes, X spells, 5+ CMC threats, etc. but the "free card" also seems sweet. Hell, I'll just cut Khalni Garden because I don't even like that card to begin with.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I agree with basically everything you said, especially about Parallel Lives being a worse version of Wake. I can easily shave at least a copy and keep 3 Wakes that way. I was never going to cut Sacred Mesa but extra reinforcement never hurts :). I do agree that Sprout Swarm is slow and win more, I just really like that card XD. It'll get cut.
I think that I'm going to cut Luminarch Ascension in the interest of diversity. I really like that card but I don't want to overplay it. I'm guilty of fielding it far too frequently in MP if for no other reason than to jam it on turn 2 and (some % of the time) ride it to victory. It doesn't happen very often (maybe 1 in every 10 games) but sometimes people just plain can't remove it and there's basically no realistic way to grind past it with fair cards/methods. Still, this is more of a "fair game of Magic" deck so I think I'll remove it for now.
I'll jam a True Conviction in the final build. It's a card that's always impressed me when it's been played even though I've been (rather unfairly) critical of the thing in the past. I don't want to add more than 1 though because I'm fine if I don't draw one every game, it's bad in multiples, I don't want too many 6 drops, etc. Everything that you touched on basically :P.
I'm going to cut Glare of Subdual. I think that the card is powerful but it's just not my style. I don't want to "set upkeep stops" on each player and consider what/when to tap things down. It's annoying for everyone involved, takes up too much time, is very unfun, etc. People obviously don't enjoy EOT Secure the Wastes into Beastmaster Ascension (or whatever) but at least those kinds of sequences end the game quickly. I don't want to play a 2 hour game of Magic in which people are miserable as I tap their relevant threats every turn. Anyways, the point is that I'm not removing it for power-level reasons but for sanity ones.
I want a bit more ramp because the deck is just plain too slow but I absolutely do not want to play with bad cards like Raise the Alarm. I think that I'm going to be greedy and go with 6 ramp spells for the ~70% probability to have one for turn 2 because I don't really want to draw more than 1 ramp spell per game and the deck is tight on space.
I'll throw up a new list in a bit.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
7x Forest
6x Plains
4x Selesnya Guildgate
4x Sunpetal Grove
2x Windbrisk Heights
2x Gavony Township
Creatures (4)
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Secure the Wastes
4x Sylvan Offering
2x Rampant Growth
4x Intangible Virtue
1x Beastmaster Ascension
1x Aura Shards
2x Worship
1x Sacred Mesa
4x Benevolent Offering
2x Parallel Lives
2x Increasing Devotion
2x Mirari's Wake
1x True Conviction
2x Hour of Reckoning
It was significantly more consistent than my previous iterations, felt much more powerful and kept winning games as the night went on. Worship was amazing and led to an inordinate amount of free wins. I played against some Black decks featuring Gary + Exsang and they literally couldn't beat the card. Benevolent Offering over-performed every time that it was drawn so I eventually jammed the full 4. 6-9 power worth of fliers is a big game (Intangible Virtue) and I'd usually give them to another strong player (i.e. one with a strong board position) so that we could raze people down at an insane pace. I often had something like Intangible Virtue out so they could never attack/race me which meant that it was usually just us destroying other people with my 4 mana "9/9 flyer." People were literally dying in 2 circuits from my one card because I would just attack whoever the person I gave the tokens to attacked. Obviously they'd try and fight and back but their removal was basically worthless, their creatures were worse and it was hard to race the deck with lifegain and Worship. Even though people could remove my Enchantments they could only remove so many of them (other people were playing powerful cards too obviously) so eventually I could stick a Worship or a Mirari's Wake and that was often good enough to get the job done.
I opted to cut the draw, a move which I'm not entirely sold on, but it didn't feel horrible. Previously I ran into problems with the card when I drew too many institutional spells and too few token producers but the new list felt a lot more consistent on the creature front. I've also managed to avoid playing bad cards for the time being and I still don't want to make room for something like Raise the Alarm.
For the record, I make liberal use the of the free multiplayer mulligan when I play which is why my decks are often a touch on the greedy side. 6 rampers and 4 Virtues isn't enough to guarantee a turn 2 play by any means but your chances are very good all things being equal. Playing 4 Virtues means that you can cast Secure the Wastes (or whatever) at X=2 on turn 3 and not feel horrible about it. A 3 mana 4/4 is "fine." I really didn't want to play with 8 ramp spells but I was happy to go up to 4 Virtues, especially after upping the Benevolent Offering count. The (immune to spot removal) 6/6 flyer that gains 6 life for 4 was amazing for me and the "free" 3/3 flyer that another player received usually worked in my favor.
I mentally compared Hour of Reckoning to Elspeth in my games and I'm still not convinced that the latter is superior. Plague Wind is a very strong Magic card when you win games by turning creatures sideways and there were a lot of easy ways for people to remove her from what I could glean. I wanted Wraths way more than I wanted additional token producers so I don't think that I'd cut Hours from the deck if I were to play it again. That being said Increasing Devotion was "meh" so I'd probably make that swap.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I knew that, and I knew I knew that, so I have no idea why I wrote that. Like I previously explained I played with deck numerous times but at first it was just 3 of us and the Black player scooped on like turn 6 when I had a Worship out. At the time I just mentally assumed that he couldn't beat the card but it was probably because his draw was bad and he was stuck on lands. He never played the deck again when we got more people (it was "Spike" deck so he only plays it when the table is full of "Spikes"). Bear in mind that there's always a lot of people and a lot going on so we get a lot of premature scoops when the game "stops being fun" so that people can go play Xbox or put a stream on the TV or whatever. Anyways, I was still tweaking the deck so I wasn't paying attention much to anything else
I tried lots of variations on the deck. Mono-Green with Beacon of Creation and Howl of the Night Pack, mono-White with Blade Splicer, Spectral Procession, Hero of Bladehold, Wingmate Roc, basically everything worked fine. The main thing that I learned as the night went on was that Benevolent Offering was a lot better (for me, YMMV) than Spectral Procession and that all of the expensive spells were worse than I thought they'd be. Hour of Reckoning was always insane but basically everything else underperformed. Mirari's Wake certainly didn't blow me away like it did back when I was a kid. Aura Shards was still amazing even though I ended up cutting 1. It wasn't correct I just wanted to test Worships. At the time the card seemed insane but thinking back on it I don't know how much work they actually did and how much "false praise" I attributed to them.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Sprout Swarm is close to being the best of the lot. That thing just churns once you start getting critical masses of tokens on the board. I would also put Sacred Mesa on the hitlist... it's good, but I find myself annoyed by the upkeep these days. You basically have to commit to sinking mana into it each turn to keep it chugging.
Two others I would at least consider - Storm Herd, Gelatinous Genesis.
Storm Herd has a strike-rate of winning the game for me around 50% of the time I even resolve it (and the other 50% of the time, it still has a big impact). I have seen Gelatinous Genesis resolved with X=33 before. Even with X at about 5, it's still game-swinging.
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I completely disagree with you noting that we just plain have different metagames and thus have different needs. I personally am very worried about mass removal and so I don't look at Sprout Swarm and see an endgame bomb. I see an extremely slow, clunky and vulnerable win condition that's bad against the cards that are inherently good against me. I put the card in my deck, I realize this, but I don't claim to be anything other than an extremely greedy Magic player. Moreover, I don't care if Mesa has an upkeep cost nor if it's a mana sink. When I cast it it's going to be as "the last spell" that I care about casting. I'll have 8-10 lands in play (probably), 0-1 cards in hand and nothing better to do than to convert mana into evasive beaters. The reason why I like this card is because it's another "must answer" Enchantment that cannot be beaten through traditional means. If your plan is to play creature removal, cast dudes and turn them sideways, draw cards, etc. then it's "too bad so sad" because I'm going to win that war. Still, again, different metagames, different metagame needs. Sprout Swarm is indeed a bomb if people aren't clearing your board and I did manage go off with Beacon of Creation and Howl of the Night Pack in some of my games (which was sweet). Still, I was going to win those games very easily regardless and I still needed to resolve a Beastmaster Ascension to close the game out in a timely fashion. Like, 20 1/1s doesn't even come remotely close to winning a multiplayer match.
In testing I wasn't lacking in finishing power. I actually had to bring the curve down a lot to stay competitive which meant eschewing big finishers that I never needed to begin with.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I tested a few things, mostly because I wanted to give a Mastery of the Unseen deck a shot. Still, I also wanted to play a full-on token deck so I tried multiple things. Here were (roughly) my lists:
17x Plains
4x Myriad Landscape
4x Windbrisk Heights
1x Kjeldoran Outpost
Spells (34)
4x Secure the Wastes
4x Raise the Alarm
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Luminarch Ascension
1x Martial Coup
4x Spectral Procession
1x Sacred Mesa
4x Benevolent Offering
4x Increasing Devotion
1x Dictate of Heliod
1x Cathars' Crusade
1x Austere Command
1x True Conviction
2x Hour of Reckoning
21x Plains
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Creatures (27)
4x Herald of Anafenza
4x Precinct Captain
4x Hallowed Spiritkeeper
2x Blade Splicer
3x Hero of Bladehold
1x Custodi Soulbinders
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
3x Wingmate Roc
2x Cloudgoat Ranger
2x Sun Titan
1x Soul of Theros
2x Intangible Virtue
4x Mastery of the Unseen
1x Spear of Heliod
1x Storm Herd
Bear in mind that I was mostly having fun trying different cards and strategies.
EDIT: I may as well post the Green deck for anyone who cares:
22x Forest
2x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
Creatures (20)
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Hornet Nest
3x Master of the Wild Hunt
2x Ant Queen
2x Deranged Hermit
2x Mycoloth
2x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Hornet Queen
4x Sylvan Offering
1x Night Soil
1x Sprout Swarm
2x Beastmaster Ascension
2x Beacon of Creation
3x Parallel Lives
1x Wolfcaller's Howl
1x Howl of the Night Pack
I never nailed a very good list down because I only tried it like once and there were dozens and dozens of cards that I wanted to try. The deck was too slow.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
2x Forest
6x Plains
3x Gavony Township
4x Sunpetal Grove
2x Windbrisk Heights
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Temple Garden
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Wayfaring Temple
2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
Spells (27)
3x Call of the Conclave
4x Intangible Virtue
4x Selesnya Charm
2x Aura Shards
2x Beastmaster Ascension
4x Midnight Haunting
2x Rootborn Defenses
2x Cathars' Crusade
2x Garruk Relentless
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
He does...?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Agreed, he does? The only bad rap he gets from me is his infernal price tag... can't get a copy for my cube.
Also, Prid3, I note Awakening Zone wasn't in your green deck. That may have sped it up a little (well, after T3, anyway).
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Oh, I get it... you're the one in your group with the lucky booster hands?
The Spike in my group bought a sum total of five Modern Masters 2015 boosters and pulled a Goyf and a Bob. Anger ensued.
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
PucaTrade with me!
The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
I bet. Although, the anger probably didn't match Goyfgate.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
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