One my my friends was interested in building an UB Delve deck since he loved the archetype in Standard. I figured I may as well post the list here for anyone interested in trying something similar themselves. The ten "Thought Scours" enable extremely fast Tasigur, the Golden Fangs which can hit play as early as turn 3. In a perfect world it could be as fast as turn 2 using actual Fetchlands (such as Polluted Delta), that's what my friend has, but for the purposes on the MP forums I'm modifying the deck to make it slightly more budget-friendly. Otherwise the deck plays a whack of Treasure Cruises because, hey, why the Hell not? I don't normally build decks that include cards that are banned in Legacy but like I said this was for a friend who wanted something that he could bring to an MP table. The rest of the deck is relatively straight-forward "good stuffs" with a decent amount of interaction. I like Evil Twin's interaction with Whip of Erebos since you can cast it to kill a creature and copy a strong ETB trigger for 6 mana. 22 lands probably seems light to some people but with 8 cantrips, 4 Strixes, various 3 CMC card draw spells/engines and 3 Treasure Cruises it's probably about right. It's possible that the deck should run a slightly different suite of self-mill but I doubt that it matters much one way or another. You could basically run anything that you wanted in those self-mill slots and it would probably work fine. Careful Study, Compulsion, Frantic Search, Compulsive Research, Careful Consideration, it all seems fine to me. I elected to jam the cheap stuff in there to power out Tasigurs and Treasure Cruises but the deck is probably better off running 1-2 expensive + "stronger" alternatives. I couldn't provide you with a compelling reason as to why I omitted Frantic Search from the deck, especially since the list already features Treasure Cruise. By no means do I believe Forbidden Alchemy to be the superior alternative. Feel free to play with whichever cards you feel comfortable wielding.
Would you please post me a link to the official multiplayer banned and restricted list? After that feel free to actually read my post. Believe it or not it might have some relevant information :O!
If you want to play some kind of make-believe format then this is the type of feedback you should expect.
Please post me a link to the official multiplayer banned/restricted list. I don't know what "real" format you're even referring to at this point :/. Show me what it is so that I can stop playing make-believe and adhere to same official rules that everyone else follows :).
Excuse me for not knowing your entirely arbitrary and vaguely documented restrictions.
I never said anything about my meta having restrictions, nor did I cite that as my reasoning for rejecting your ideas. I just said that I was definitely not going to take your advice.
Also, I'm not expecting you to know anything that I don't explicitly state. I actually addressed the issue, you simply failed to read my post and now you're getting agitated and defensive after being called out on your obvious mistake. Anyways, I agree that it's unreasonable to assume that you're an esper. However, I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that you'll read my post :).
800.3. Many multiplayer Magic tournaments have additional rules not included here, including rules for deck construction. See the most current Magic: The Gathering Tournament Rules for more information. They can be found at WPN.Wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents.
I don't know what you posted but it certainly doesn't help to answer my questions. You said that Treasure Cruise is banned. Your exact words were "[y]ou know Treasure Cruise is banned, right?" You stated it as a fact. Show me the official document which supports that claim. If you're going to call what I play "make believe," show me the official B&R list that you adhere to. I don't care about multiplayer variants, tournament procedures, none of that nonsense. I want you to show me where this aura of absolute authority stems from.
Your playgroup is, of course, free to ignore any or all of that, but it would clear up a lot of confusion if you were a bit more specific about it.
Ignore any or all of what? You just posted a link to a giant collection of documents and there's no way in Hell that I'm going to read through all of them. What are we ignoring exactly?
I assume you are referring to the part where you "don't normally build decks that include cards that are banned in Legacy". So... you're adhering to some kind of fuzzy quantum state banning system where cards are potentially simultaneously banned and unbanned and/or only partially banned? Sounds tricky!
At no point did I claim that we adhere to any sort of B&R list. You're simply unable to interpret "I don't usually" as anything other than "I am contractually obligated." Believe it or not multiplayer Magic is frequently regulated by implicit social contracts in which people focus on the social aspects of the game moreso than the competitive ones.
For what it's worth, I've seen more people specifically ignore the banning of Treasure Cruise. Some kind of civil disobedience, as if they feel that particular ban was unjust. I wonder if it would have been the same if Treasure Cruise had been a mythic rare with a $30 price tag.
What's with the tone of authority? You keep saying things like "[y]ou know Treasure Cruise is banned, right?" and "more people specifically ignore the banning of Treasure Cruise" but when prompted for an official announcement and/or banned/restricted you seem to be unable to provide one. Is it because, perhaps, such a list doesn't actually exist? If you personally play using a Legacy B&R list, good on you. That's fine. Still, I don't understand why you feel that that's the only "real" B&R list that a meta can elect to employ. You're making absolute, authoritative statements but the reality of the matter is that you don't have any "legal" high ground to fall back on. That is, there is absolutely nothing that you can link to myself/others that would suggest that the Legacy B&R list is the one that Wizards (or some other publicly recognized governing body) is pushing on the casual multiplayer sphere. So yeah, it has nothing to do with "civil disobedience" or "unjust"ness. Rather, it has everything to do with the fact that we can play whatever the Hell we want :).
I could "never" play Nightveil Specter and Havengul Lich without some reliable sources of 5-color mana.
Both in artifacts and in lands there are options enough.
And in multiplayer the decks and GY's are packed with goodies.
It adds a lot of fun (and options) at very little cost.
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I could "never" play Nightveil Specter and Havengul Lich without some reliable sources of 5-color mana.
Both in artifacts and in lands there are options enough.
And in multiplayer the decks and GY's are packed with goodies.
It adds a lot of fun (and options) at very little cost.
Artifact mana does have an opportunity cost. This deck already runs Thought Scours as its form of "ramp" so if I were to cut action spells for artifact mana it would lose even more threat density.
While you can technically argue that 5 color mana doesn't have much in the way of opportunity cost (I don't see how but for the sake of argument let's roll with it) what it would have a significant monetary cost associated with it. Exotic Orchard isn't bad and should realistically be played in versions that run Nightveil Specter but otherwise it's not THAT easy to build a semi-reliable 5C mana base on a reasonable budget. I mean you can obviously jam bad cards like basics and ETB lands into the thing but then you're reducing the deck's speed and consistency which is a very real cost. If you want a "free" 5 color splash it would cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars and everything else would, in fact, significantly hinder the deck.
Personally I'm fine playing Nightveil Specter "as is" because I was happy to play this card in duels even against opponents who weren't in my colors. Given that there's virtually always going to be someone playing Blue or Black in a big MP game I'm not concerned about a lack of targets. Even when you're forced to attack the Red player you're still hitting a land ~42% of the time and a "free" colorless land is fine. As for the Lich, again, this is a self-mill deck so the plan A is to revive your own dudes and everything beyond that is just bonus. I'm by no means reliant on anyone else but the option will always be there. Either way, I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't think that it's especially important to turn this into a 5 color deck. It's just plain not that easy to make the mana work unless you have access to true duals and fetches and I don't want to make the deck slower/less consistent just so I can cast random Green dudes that I may or not hit with a Nightveil Specter. That being said Exotic Orchard is relatively "free" to run in basically every multiplayer deck so it's probably a mistake to omit it.
Treasure Cruise happens to be either banned or restricted in the relevant formats.
The relevant format, in this instance, is Chaos multiplayer. I also think it's a bit much to claim that Standard is an irrelevant format so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
9x Island
4x Swamp
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Nephalia Drownyard
Creatures (23)
4x Baleful Strix
3x Nightveil Specter
1x Stinkweed Imp
3x Evil Twin
2x Shriekmaw
1x Mulldrifter
2x Havengul Lich
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Soul of Innistrad
1x Sepulchral Primordial
1x Diluvian Primordial
4x Mental Note
4x Thought Scour
2x Forbidden Alchemy
2x Whip of Erebos
3x Treasure Cruise
One my my friends was interested in building an UB Delve deck since he loved the archetype in Standard. I figured I may as well post the list here for anyone interested in trying something similar themselves. The ten "Thought Scours" enable extremely fast Tasigur, the Golden Fangs which can hit play as early as turn 3. In a perfect world it could be as fast as turn 2 using actual Fetchlands (such as Polluted Delta), that's what my friend has, but for the purposes on the MP forums I'm modifying the deck to make it slightly more budget-friendly. Otherwise the deck plays a whack of Treasure Cruises because, hey, why the Hell not? I don't normally build decks that include cards that are banned in Legacy but like I said this was for a friend who wanted something that he could bring to an MP table. The rest of the deck is relatively straight-forward "good stuffs" with a decent amount of interaction. I like Evil Twin's interaction with Whip of Erebos since you can cast it to kill a creature and copy a strong ETB trigger for 6 mana. 22 lands probably seems light to some people but with 8 cantrips, 4 Strixes, various 3 CMC card draw spells/engines and 3 Treasure Cruises it's probably about right. It's possible that the deck should run a slightly different suite of self-mill but I doubt that it matters much one way or another. You could basically run anything that you wanted in those self-mill slots and it would probably work fine. Careful Study, Compulsion, Frantic Search, Compulsive Research, Careful Consideration, it all seems fine to me. I elected to jam the cheap stuff in there to power out Tasigurs and Treasure Cruises but the deck is probably better off running 1-2 expensive + "stronger" alternatives. I couldn't provide you with a compelling reason as to why I omitted Frantic Search from the deck, especially since the list already features Treasure Cruise. By no means do I believe Forbidden Alchemy to be the superior alternative. Feel free to play with whichever cards you feel comfortable wielding.
For anyone looking to build a similar deck on a tighter budget, consider dropping Tasigurs for 2x Gurmag Angler/Tombstalker/Necropolis Fiend and going up to 4x Treasure Cruise. Baleful Strix really is the best 2 drop available to you but you could always try something like Merfolk Looter or Enclave Cryptologist.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
That's definitely not going to happen.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Would you please post me a link to the official multiplayer banned and restricted list? After that feel free to actually read my post. Believe it or not it might have some relevant information :O!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Please post me a link to the official multiplayer banned/restricted list. I don't know what "real" format you're even referring to at this point :/. Show me what it is so that I can stop playing make-believe and adhere to same official rules that everyone else follows :).
I never said anything about my meta having restrictions, nor did I cite that as my reasoning for rejecting your ideas. I just said that I was definitely not going to take your advice.
Also, I'm not expecting you to know anything that I don't explicitly state. I actually addressed the issue, you simply failed to read my post and now you're getting agitated and defensive after being called out on your obvious mistake. Anyways, I agree that it's unreasonable to assume that you're an esper. However, I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that you'll read my post :).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I don't know what you posted but it certainly doesn't help to answer my questions. You said that Treasure Cruise is banned. Your exact words were "[y]ou know Treasure Cruise is banned, right?" You stated it as a fact. Show me the official document which supports that claim. If you're going to call what I play "make believe," show me the official B&R list that you adhere to. I don't care about multiplayer variants, tournament procedures, none of that nonsense. I want you to show me where this aura of absolute authority stems from.
Ignore any or all of what? You just posted a link to a giant collection of documents and there's no way in Hell that I'm going to read through all of them. What are we ignoring exactly?
At no point did I claim that we adhere to any sort of B&R list. You're simply unable to interpret "I don't usually" as anything other than "I am contractually obligated." Believe it or not multiplayer Magic is frequently regulated by implicit social contracts in which people focus on the social aspects of the game moreso than the competitive ones.
What's with the tone of authority? You keep saying things like "[y]ou know Treasure Cruise is banned, right?" and "more people specifically ignore the banning of Treasure Cruise" but when prompted for an official announcement and/or banned/restricted you seem to be unable to provide one. Is it because, perhaps, such a list doesn't actually exist? If you personally play using a Legacy B&R list, good on you. That's fine. Still, I don't understand why you feel that that's the only "real" B&R list that a meta can elect to employ. You're making absolute, authoritative statements but the reality of the matter is that you don't have any "legal" high ground to fall back on. That is, there is absolutely nothing that you can link to myself/others that would suggest that the Legacy B&R list is the one that Wizards (or some other publicly recognized governing body) is pushing on the casual multiplayer sphere. So yeah, it has nothing to do with "civil disobedience" or "unjust"ness. Rather, it has everything to do with the fact that we can play whatever the Hell we want :).
You're free to suggest whatever you want.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Both in artifacts and in lands there are options enough.
And in multiplayer the decks and GY's are packed with goodies.
It adds a lot of fun (and options) at very little cost.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Artifact mana does have an opportunity cost. This deck already runs Thought Scours as its form of "ramp" so if I were to cut action spells for artifact mana it would lose even more threat density.
While you can technically argue that 5 color mana doesn't have much in the way of opportunity cost (I don't see how but for the sake of argument let's roll with it) what it would have a significant monetary cost associated with it. Exotic Orchard isn't bad and should realistically be played in versions that run Nightveil Specter but otherwise it's not THAT easy to build a semi-reliable 5C mana base on a reasonable budget. I mean you can obviously jam bad cards like basics and ETB lands into the thing but then you're reducing the deck's speed and consistency which is a very real cost. If you want a "free" 5 color splash it would cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars and everything else would, in fact, significantly hinder the deck.
Personally I'm fine playing Nightveil Specter "as is" because I was happy to play this card in duels even against opponents who weren't in my colors. Given that there's virtually always going to be someone playing Blue or Black in a big MP game I'm not concerned about a lack of targets. Even when you're forced to attack the Red player you're still hitting a land ~42% of the time and a "free" colorless land is fine. As for the Lich, again, this is a self-mill deck so the plan A is to revive your own dudes and everything beyond that is just bonus. I'm by no means reliant on anyone else but the option will always be there. Either way, I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't think that it's especially important to turn this into a 5 color deck. It's just plain not that easy to make the mana work unless you have access to true duals and fetches and I don't want to make the deck slower/less consistent just so I can cast random Green dudes that I may or not hit with a Nightveil Specter. That being said Exotic Orchard is relatively "free" to run in basically every multiplayer deck so it's probably a mistake to omit it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Warning for Spamming the Forum
-ThatRedwood
The relevant format, in this instance, is Chaos multiplayer. I also think it's a bit much to claim that Standard is an irrelevant format so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold