Hey guys, figured I'd share my updated MBD deck in case some of you still haven't banned/restricted the card Gray Merchant of Asphodel in your meta. My current starting list is:
A budget deck that doesn't play Volrath's Stronghold (play Unholy Grotto #3 or even another Swamp) or Phyrexian Arena (play Underworld Connections, Nightveil Specter and/or Syphon Mind) would work fine and you don't need Urborg if you don't have one. The No Mercy isn't needed either and you can run any finisher of your choice over Grave Titan if you want. The deck is basically just 6x Gray Merchant of Asphodel and the other 54 cards are significantly less important. I'm mostly posting this update to anyone out there interested in finding a home for Sidisi, Undead Vizier in multiplayer. I knew that she wouldn't be able to compete with Gray Merchant but as it turns out she pairs insanely well with him, especially since you can often curve a turn 4 Crypt Ghast into a Sidisi + tutor for Gray Merchant + cast Gray Merchant. Fun times! Otherwise the deck has various mana sinks such as Extort and "Firebreathing" but I've since moved away from the Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and/or Cabal Coffers plan in my Black decks. I don't find myself needing big spells and/or 20 point Exsanguinates to close games out so I'd rather play Unholy Grotto instead. It recurs both Sidisi and Gray Merchant which makes it an insanely powerful win condition that doesn't occupy a spell slot. Still, if your meta is more-or-less devoid of mass removal then the recursive lands aren't great and you're better off playing with the big acceleration lands. I play 1x No Mercy in virtually 100% of my multiplayer decks and Sidisi makes finding it significantly more consistent. Past a certain point you literally have too much HP to die to "Lava Axes" so even if people decide to gang-up on you it doesn't actually matter. The 2 drops are anemic but they're my personal favorite BB threats because they do provide you with some amount of mid and lategame value. The plan is never to tap out to "Shade" someone early on but come turn 8 it's legitimate way to finish people off.
The most noteworthy deviation between this version and my previous ones is Ophiomancer vs Vampire Nighthawk. The 'Mancer clearly combos with Sidisi but I've always liked the card in general and this push has provided me with enough incentive to make the swap. Whereas Nighthawk can sometimes draw hate and get picked-off it's a lot harder to mess with the 'Mancer. Even if you kill the Human the Snake still remains which makes it extremely inefficient to try and interact with the card. It's also ludicrous to blow a removal spell on it before the next upkeep because that's just plain not a winning line. As result the deck is technically lacking in flying defense but the last thing that I'm worried about is being raced in the air by cheap flyers. No one is playing Wind Drakes in MP and by the time that people are able to cast 4+ CMC Dragons/Angels/Demons my deck is in full "Gray Merchant mode."
I've tested Bloodghast at 2 CMC but it rarely felt actively good (even when sac'd to Sidisi). I'm going to test versions with Flesh Carver at some point (1 or 2) which may push it over the edge but until further notice I prefer to run 2 drops that can attack and block and that have standalone value. I've also gone back and forth on Whip of Erebos but the fact of the matter is that it's just plain not very good in this specific shell. I've tried Pack Rat as well but it has the unfortunate "must kill" tag which made it lackluster in practice.
6 draw spells is higher than my previous versions but I want to have a ton of game against removal and Control strategies. I don't care about defensive decks since I can easily burn players out even if they're hiding behind walls and I feel as though I have enough game against ramp to compete with most of the things that they're going to whip out against me.
Otherwise, the obvious new addition is Sidisi, Undead Vizier. People might be wondering why the deck doesn't have a ton of silver-bullets but the fact of the matter is that basically every card is worse than Gray Merchant. You can obviously play whatever you want, feel free to go tool-box, just know that very few tutor targets are better than additional Gray Merchants. The number that I eventually settled on was 2 and I don't expect that change for some time. I tried the full 4 with 4 Gray Merchants but it became immediately clear that that was wrong. I cut 2 for Grave Titans, a card which always over-performs, and haven't looked back since. Original versions of this deck lacked "meat" to defend itself with which is why I like the Shades, Ophiomancers, Sidisi and Grave Titans. It's a lot harder to tangle with this list on the ground since you're no longer stampeding across a field of 1/1s, 2/2s, 2/4s, etc. that fail to significantly threaten large attackers.
The biggest weakness of the deck is that if people kill everything that you play as you play it and rush you down then you'll lose. While that may seem silly it definitely happens and makes the deck a lot less broken than it otherwise could be. People usually pack creature removal in their lists and this isn't a pure "good stuffs" deck that can more-or-less ignore it. Otherwise, the worst card in the deck is Crypt Ghast because sometimes it just dies before you can untap with it. I've been meaning to replace it for some time, I just have settled on an adequate substitution quite yet. Phyrexian Obliterator seems like an obvious candidate at first glance but unfortunately it also suffers from the "I draw hate and die" hidden drawback.
I'm a little surprised you aren't running geralf's messenger. It gives good devotion. It has ok power (though it does come into play tapped). It has synergy with sidisi, undead vizier. It also can punish people who attack you. You swing on me? Fine, I block, you lose life and my guy comes back stronger. It also has some synergy with thrull parasite since thrull can remove its +1/+1 counter so it can keep coming back.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was the guy playing the relentless rats deck back during mirrodin and kamigawa blocks. Yes, cranial extraction was used on me. No, I didn't win much. Yes, I do have a relentless rats edh deck. No, it doesn't win much either...
I'm a little surprised you aren't running geralf's messenger. It gives good devotion. It has ok power (though it does come into play tapped). It has synergy with sidisi, undead vizier. It also can punish people who attack you. You swing on me? Fine, I block, you lose life and my guy comes back stronger. It also has some synergy with thrull parasite since thrull can remove its +1/+1 counter so it can keep coming back.
First and foremost I think that the drain for 2 is actively bad and if it were a "may" ability I would elect to forgo it in a huge % of my games. Singling someone out to harm them and the often associated "why me?" reaction isn't worth 2 damage in my mind. Moreover, I have an extremely low opinion of blockers that ETBT. The only thing that this deck needs to do is survive and this card does not bolster my defenses on turn 3 when I resolve it. I don't think that it's terrible or anything, 3 devotion is 3 devotion, I've just never been especially impressed by the card in practice. What I will say is that the card seems stellar in slower metas in which players are unlikely to curve out. After all, it's resilient to removal and provides a ton of Devotion. I just don't feel that it's right for me. For what it's worth I would virtually never play the Messenger over Nightveil Specter. I'd rather have another consistent blocker/draw engine even if it were more vulnerable to removal.
I have a deck like this that has morphed several times over the years. This time around, I'm (finally) trying Gary route. Just picked up a playset of Phylactery Lich (i know he generally sucks--just going budget option and wanna start getting used to the lines-of-play w/Gary), probably gonna get 4x Ascensions too. Was looking at Geralf's Messenger but thank you for effectively talking me out of it.
Running Necro as my draw engine and it's generally...sufficient. Heh.
Was honestly looking very hard at investing in a playset of Obliterators too. Quite pricey. Are they honestly worth it?
My list is pretty heavy on Damnations (2)/Mutilates (4) vs the Fleshbag route, although I run him in several other decks fore sure.
Also currently running Sepulchrals but been seriously considering just going a little bigger. (Also running 2x Liliana Vess for this.)
Maybe I should stop focusing on two paths to victory and streamline it though. It also gives me another way to capitalize on all the Damnations/Mutilates which are just SO satisfying to play with. This deck has terrorized my playgroup for many years now. I usually save it for 5-way games.
Thanks for all your inputs on this archetype (and many others) over the years, btw. Good work, man.
I have a deck like this that has morphed several times over the years. This time around, I'm (finally) trying Gary route. Just picked up a playset of Phylactery Lich (i know he generally sucks--just going budget option and wanna start getting used to the lines-of-play w/Gary), probably gonna get 4x Ascensions too. Was looking at Geralf's Messenger but thank you for effectively talking me out of it.
Feel free to give Messengers a go if you like the card. I just personally want my defensive drops to block for me the turn that they come into play. These kinds of decks usually have a whack of weak/marginal bodies already so I don't like playing with defensive threats that offer delayed returns. If the card didn't ETBT I would be windmill slamming it into my lists but I've noticed that it's a very real drawback in large games. Even if you have Thrull Parasite to "go infinite" with the guy you still can't blank everyone's largest threat each combat. It's a very real drawback and one that I personally don't enjoy having to endure.
Was honestly looking very hard at investing in a playset of Obliterators too. Quite pricey. Are they honestly worth it?
This is an extremely difficult question to answer. When the card is good it's amazing but sometimes it's just a dumb 4 drop who dies to removal and very little benefit (after all, the card is SCARY AS HELL to leave alive). It also costs infinity dollars and only works in one archetype. Wurmcoil Engine, on the other hand is like fifteen bucks and any deck can run 4. In the dark I would say "don't bother" unless you really, really wanted to play with them and had reason to believe that they wouldn't just immediately die every game. When compared to Crypt Ghast I don't believe that either card is significantly better or worse than the other when they survive for multiple turns and both cards are equally bad when they draw hate and die. Given that one is 50 cents and the other is 25 dollars I feel much more comfortable promoting the cheaper alternative.
Maybe I should stop focusing on two paths to victory and streamline it though. It also gives me a reason to run all the Damnations/Mutilates which are just SO satisfying to play with. This deck has terrorized my playgroup for many years now. I usually save it for 5-way games.
Completely up to you. I'm a fan of "Highlander" style decks myself that feature tons of 1-ofs. Having multiple paths of victory can be very beneficial at times insofar as they're all relevant in a significant % of your games. I also agree that having massive amounts of mass removal can be insanely fun in multiplayer. I've noticed a steep decline in its use over the past few years to the point where I almost don't see it in decks nowadays. That's part of the reason why I like this style of deck to begin with, since I don't expect to lose all of my dudes very frequently.
What does Thrull Parasite provide for you besides the occasional Extort trigger? I'm not seeing a ton of use for the remove-a-counter ability (especially given no Undying creatures of your own or similar).
I guess being a one drop is decent, but I feel like he's a bit underwhelming overall.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
What does Thrull Parasite provide for you besides the occasional Extort trigger? I'm not seeing a ton of use for the remove-a-counter ability (especially given no Undying creatures of your own or similar).
I guess being a one drop is decent, but I feel like he's a bit underwhelming overall.
I personally think that Extort is a ridiculously overpowered ability that far too few people employ. I only ever see it in dedicated Extort decks even though the mechanic is perfectly fine to play "just because." Given that most Extorters have relatively worthless bodies and given that Black has exactly one good 1 drop (Deathrite Shaman) I often play the card in my lists. Paying 1 mana to gain 6 life every time that I cast a spell is a disgusting rate and the 1 extra toughness that oh, say Basilica Screecher would provide for me isn't doing me many favors. Being able to start on turn 1 is also very relevant in Gray Merchant decks since the "nut draw" of dude, dude, dude/draw engine, dude, Gray Merchant doesn't lose many games. If the other Extorters had actual bodies I probably wouldn't bother with the guy but I just don't see any compelling reason to run the more expensive ones. Extort is probably a significantly weaker ability in smaller games but even in a 4 player Chaos game it still seems very good to me. 2HG, ok, sure, it's probably not fantastic. That being said I just don't see how paying 1 mana to globally drain for 1 (for every spell that you cast) can be considered underwhelming in most multiplayer spheres.
For what it's worth I assign 0 value to the "remove counter" ability but it never ceases to impress me in practice. 'Walkers, +1/+1 counters, Charge counters, there's almost always something that you can do with it. For an ability that I do not expect to be relevant at all I'm all pleasantly surprised at how much disruption it can provide. I want to stress that I would happily run a 1 mana 1/1 with Extort, I think that the mechanic is utterly absurd in multiplayer, so everything beyond that is just a bonus.
Otherwise it's just another body to pitch to Sidisi, another source of drain, a potential chump-blocker, a Black pip for Gray Merchant, etc. I like playing four 1 drops in my decks in general and this is one of the most powerful + generic options that you can run in my opinion.
In my MBC deck I run Hunted Horror.
Yeah it's a marginal choice, but it's a political choice which can often have someone gunning with you, rather than against you.
I tend to ask the person most likely to be running targeted removal if they like tokens...
I also run Crypt Ghast and Exsangunate. If you're running one, it would make sense to run the other.
In my MBC deck I run Hunted Horror.
Yeah it's a marginal choice, but it's a political choice which can often have someone gunning with you, rather than against you.
I tend to ask the person most likely to be running targeted removal if they like tokens...
I wouldn't call Hunted Horror a marginal choice. It's by far and away the most interesting 2 drop that you can field in a Black multiplayer deck. Best-case scenario it's an Entomb + Exhume rolled into a single card that absolutely crushes some of the other players. Worst-case scenario it get removed and you take 6 for the next 3 turns until you die. For better or for worse it makes for exceptionally interesting outcomes that few would have predicted going into the match.
The main reason why I don't run Hunted Horror in this style of deck is because it's one of the easiest ways to actually lose games. If you just make land drops and cast spells you're a massive favorite to win so the last thing that you want to do is introduce a whack of variance into the equation. It'll rarely-if-ever have a net positive result assuming that people can pick up on what it is that you're trying to do. Don't get me wrong, I've gotten away with various Hunted Horror shenanigans in the past (in fact I'd put money that you play the card based on a personal recommendation) but the advent of cards like Exsanguinate and Gray Merchant of Asphodel have drastically changed the way that people look at my Black decks. The "sit back and turtle up" plan is ludicrously inadequate when facing an opponent who can easily dome you for ~20 over the the course of 2-3 turns while gaining virtual infinite life in the process. It means that, all things being equal, people generally won't cut you much slack.
If anything that provides you with more incentive to build the "all removal" deck that just uses Phyrexian Arena and Gray Merchant of Asphodel as its Devotion component. The rest of the deck can be Innocent Bloods, Abyssal Gatekeepers, Mutilates, Crux of Fates and Decree of Pains which can all buy time until you Exsanguinate for the kill. Bösium Strip usually ends up doing God's work because doubling your mass removal in a deck that's already drawing 2+ cards per turn is nuts. I kinda don't like playing that style of deck nearly as much anymore since it doesn't make for especially interesting games but it's certainly effective.
I said *marginal* cos I knew you would shoot it down for some reason. LOL. I would never suggest running Nature's Ruin etc. to support it either ;P
My MBC deck is devotion based for the Grey Merchant aswell. For this reason I'm running perm's rather then spells or one-hit's like Abyssal Gatekeeper.
I'm also running Stinkweed Imp, Vengeful Pharaoh and Demigod of Revenge.
Due to the dredge mechanic, I generally find people I play with are wary of killing Stinky, so it's usually affords me some time, or I dredge....
Imp & Pharaoh just make sense together, and I find access to Imp can often make recursion choices like Oversold Cemetery more effective.
I said *marginal* cos I knew you would shoot it down for some reason. LOL.
I was mostly explaining why I don't run the card myself. There's no such thing as a "perfect" MP deck as far as I'm concerned so the "why" matters a lot more than the "what" in my mind. As much as possible I'm just trying to cover the thought process behind my card choices and why I've omitted others.
I'm also running Stinkweed Imp, Vengeful Pharaoh and Demigod of Revenge.
Due to the dredge mechanic, I generally find people I play with are wary of killing Stinky, so it's usually affords me some time, or I dredge....
Imp & Pharaoh just make sense together, and I find access to Imp can often make recursion choices like Oversold Cemetery more effective.
For sure. It's not so much that people are wary of killing Stinky, it's moreso that it doesn't actually make any sense to do so. Trading with a "bad" threat that self-recurs and that significantly helps your opponent (Dredging 5 is close to drawing a card) is fairly nonsensical which is a compelling reason to run the card in the first place. Whereas people have played against and lost to Vampire Nighthawks in competitive formats no one gives a damn about a dinky little Dredger in the context of a non-Dredge deck. It's just another dumb Wall that should be ignored by and large.
What I will say is that when I play similar decks I usually go with the Buried Alive + Living Death route as opposed to full-on Devotion. I like binning a bunch of Demigods/Stinkys/Pharaohs and abusing Dredge to make my LDs insane. Living Death is a criminally underplayed card in general given its pricetag so people shouldn't need much of an excuse to field it.
Being able to start on turn 1 is also very relevant in Gray Merchant decks since the "nut draw" of dude, dude, dude/draw engine, dude, Gray Merchant doesn't lose many games.
Compared to nothing, dude, dude/draw engine, dude, Gray Merchant? Having the option to extort is nice, but I don't think +1 devotion matters much in this particular sequence.
Ok, fair, the 1 extra Black pip isn't a make-or-break factor in the equation. The point remains that I love the Extort mechanic in large multiplayer games and that I personally have very little incentive to run anything other than the cheapest enablers for it. If they all have equally worthless bodies then costs and additional effects are what interest me and in this instance I just like being able to play with a legitimately good 1 drop. Again, I like to play 4ish one drops in my MP decks whenever possible but I don't want to run marginal crap that won't significantly impact the game. If I can trigger Extort twice I feel good, three I feel great and at 4 or more my 1 drop has probably made me a favorite to go on to win the game. I doubt that my average use-case of the card is 4 or more activations but I trigger the ability more than enough to extract (what I consider to be) meaningful value from the cards.
I like Thrull Parasite in Grey Merchant decks for the reasons described above.
That said, I find Parasite is a card people consider an act of aggression for some stupid reason.
I don't play the card as it's a sure fire way for me to get ganged up on and taken down from turn 1.
My MB-Merchant deck is more a mixed strategy to try and avoid people working out my deck, the reason I do this is summed up below;
Like I said this is basically a 6x Gray Merchant deck and the other cards don't matter nearly as much. I don't think that the full "8" is correct because Sidisi does have some real costs associated with her. Pitching a creature isn't nothing and costing 5 makes her awkward. We're not talking about Demonic Tutor here, it's way closer to Demonic Collusion than it seems. Still, she gums up the ground and fetches the best card in the deck so I'm happy to play 2.
As for the Gray Merchant "problem," let's just say that it doesn't surprise me to read "btw Gray Merchant is banned in our meta." Paying 5 mana to win the game against any number of opponents using a single card is uhh... well let's just say that it's not exactly fair :). That being said I don't think that people should "never" be allowed to play with powerful Magic cards, especially ones that don't really see play in other formats. You wouldn't want to lose to a turn 1 Limited Resources every game but playing against it once a month probably won't make you quit the game. You're just plain never going to see someone reveal a Chancellor of the Spires on turn 0 only to cast Wight of Precinct Sixes, Nighthowlers, Mortivores, etc. for the rest of the game in other formats so I like playing these "multiplayer only" decks some % of the time (even if they are unfair).
Hey Prid3, just "completed" this deck list except for the God Erebos. Replaced him with Whip of Erebos. Also swapped out a land, added Necropotence and 2 Abhorrent Overlords instead of the 2 Grave Titan. The feels this deck gives. Very nice.
If you can play Necropotence I have no clue why you would play this deck at all...
Be nice, my decks aren't that bad :<!
I don't think that Gray Merchant is outright horrendous in "competitive" metas. Budget typically matters significantly more than any banned/restricted list and a lot of what MBD does is easy on the wallet while still being reasonably powerful. Necro does lend itself well to combo decks, that much is clear, but most of the good ones are going to set you back a lot of cash. Using Necro to draw ~10 cards so that you chain GMs isn't the powerful finisher imaginable but for someone looking to invest small amount of money into the game it's not a bad place to start.
I play Necropotence because Noob tears make me feel alive. Just you wait. I only need 3 more Phyrexian Obliterators for a playset. Then the all hell breaks loose! Sadly, no one wants to trade.
I've also tried running Mutilates/Crux in the deck but it's terribly inconsistent. I draw it when I don't need it, and when I'm swarmed I'd rather have more beefy creatures on the board. Either run 8-12 removal or none at all I say. Thinking it's better to add both the Ophinomancer and Vampire Nighthawks. Not sure why I ever thought 2-3 board wipes/removal would be good out of 60 cards. -_-
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
21x Swamp
2x Unholy Grotto
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures (26)
4x Thrull Parasite
4x Nantuko Shade
2x Stromgald Crusader
4x Ophiomancer
3x Crypt Ghast
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2x Grave Titan
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
2x Exsanguinate
4x Phyrexian Arena
1x Underworld Connections
1x No Mercy
A budget deck that doesn't play Volrath's Stronghold (play Unholy Grotto #3 or even another Swamp) or Phyrexian Arena (play Underworld Connections, Nightveil Specter and/or Syphon Mind) would work fine and you don't need Urborg if you don't have one. The No Mercy isn't needed either and you can run any finisher of your choice over Grave Titan if you want. The deck is basically just 6x Gray Merchant of Asphodel and the other 54 cards are significantly less important. I'm mostly posting this update to anyone out there interested in finding a home for Sidisi, Undead Vizier in multiplayer. I knew that she wouldn't be able to compete with Gray Merchant but as it turns out she pairs insanely well with him, especially since you can often curve a turn 4 Crypt Ghast into a Sidisi + tutor for Gray Merchant + cast Gray Merchant. Fun times! Otherwise the deck has various mana sinks such as Extort and "Firebreathing" but I've since moved away from the Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and/or Cabal Coffers plan in my Black decks. I don't find myself needing big spells and/or 20 point Exsanguinates to close games out so I'd rather play Unholy Grotto instead. It recurs both Sidisi and Gray Merchant which makes it an insanely powerful win condition that doesn't occupy a spell slot. Still, if your meta is more-or-less devoid of mass removal then the recursive lands aren't great and you're better off playing with the big acceleration lands. I play 1x No Mercy in virtually 100% of my multiplayer decks and Sidisi makes finding it significantly more consistent. Past a certain point you literally have too much HP to die to "Lava Axes" so even if people decide to gang-up on you it doesn't actually matter. The 2 drops are anemic but they're my personal favorite BB threats because they do provide you with some amount of mid and lategame value. The plan is never to tap out to "Shade" someone early on but come turn 8 it's legitimate way to finish people off.
The most noteworthy deviation between this version and my previous ones is Ophiomancer vs Vampire Nighthawk. The 'Mancer clearly combos with Sidisi but I've always liked the card in general and this push has provided me with enough incentive to make the swap. Whereas Nighthawk can sometimes draw hate and get picked-off it's a lot harder to mess with the 'Mancer. Even if you kill the Human the Snake still remains which makes it extremely inefficient to try and interact with the card. It's also ludicrous to blow a removal spell on it before the next upkeep because that's just plain not a winning line. As result the deck is technically lacking in flying defense but the last thing that I'm worried about is being raced in the air by cheap flyers. No one is playing Wind Drakes in MP and by the time that people are able to cast 4+ CMC Dragons/Angels/Demons my deck is in full "Gray Merchant mode."
I've tested Bloodghast at 2 CMC but it rarely felt actively good (even when sac'd to Sidisi). I'm going to test versions with Flesh Carver at some point (1 or 2) which may push it over the edge but until further notice I prefer to run 2 drops that can attack and block and that have standalone value. I've also gone back and forth on Whip of Erebos but the fact of the matter is that it's just plain not very good in this specific shell. I've tried Pack Rat as well but it has the unfortunate "must kill" tag which made it lackluster in practice.
6 draw spells is higher than my previous versions but I want to have a ton of game against removal and Control strategies. I don't care about defensive decks since I can easily burn players out even if they're hiding behind walls and I feel as though I have enough game against ramp to compete with most of the things that they're going to whip out against me.
Otherwise, the obvious new addition is Sidisi, Undead Vizier. People might be wondering why the deck doesn't have a ton of silver-bullets but the fact of the matter is that basically every card is worse than Gray Merchant. You can obviously play whatever you want, feel free to go tool-box, just know that very few tutor targets are better than additional Gray Merchants. The number that I eventually settled on was 2 and I don't expect that change for some time. I tried the full 4 with 4 Gray Merchants but it became immediately clear that that was wrong. I cut 2 for Grave Titans, a card which always over-performs, and haven't looked back since. Original versions of this deck lacked "meat" to defend itself with which is why I like the Shades, Ophiomancers, Sidisi and Grave Titans. It's a lot harder to tangle with this list on the ground since you're no longer stampeding across a field of 1/1s, 2/2s, 2/4s, etc. that fail to significantly threaten large attackers.
The biggest weakness of the deck is that if people kill everything that you play as you play it and rush you down then you'll lose. While that may seem silly it definitely happens and makes the deck a lot less broken than it otherwise could be. People usually pack creature removal in their lists and this isn't a pure "good stuffs" deck that can more-or-less ignore it. Otherwise, the worst card in the deck is Crypt Ghast because sometimes it just dies before you can untap with it. I've been meaning to replace it for some time, I just have settled on an adequate substitution quite yet. Phyrexian Obliterator seems like an obvious candidate at first glance but unfortunately it also suffers from the "I draw hate and die" hidden drawback.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
First and foremost I think that the drain for 2 is actively bad and if it were a "may" ability I would elect to forgo it in a huge % of my games. Singling someone out to harm them and the often associated "why me?" reaction isn't worth 2 damage in my mind. Moreover, I have an extremely low opinion of blockers that ETBT. The only thing that this deck needs to do is survive and this card does not bolster my defenses on turn 3 when I resolve it. I don't think that it's terrible or anything, 3 devotion is 3 devotion, I've just never been especially impressed by the card in practice. What I will say is that the card seems stellar in slower metas in which players are unlikely to curve out. After all, it's resilient to removal and provides a ton of Devotion. I just don't feel that it's right for me. For what it's worth I would virtually never play the Messenger over Nightveil Specter. I'd rather have another consistent blocker/draw engine even if it were more vulnerable to removal.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Running Necro as my draw engine and it's generally...sufficient. Heh.
Was honestly looking very hard at investing in a playset of Obliterators too. Quite pricey. Are they honestly worth it?
My list is pretty heavy on Damnations (2)/Mutilates (4) vs the Fleshbag route, although I run him in several other decks fore sure.
Also currently running Sepulchrals but been seriously considering just going a little bigger. (Also running 2x Liliana Vess for this.)
Maybe I should stop focusing on two paths to victory and streamline it though. It also gives me another way to capitalize on all the Damnations/Mutilates which are just SO satisfying to play with. This deck has terrorized my playgroup for many years now. I usually save it for 5-way games.
Thanks for all your inputs on this archetype (and many others) over the years, btw. Good work, man.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
Feel free to give Messengers a go if you like the card. I just personally want my defensive drops to block for me the turn that they come into play. These kinds of decks usually have a whack of weak/marginal bodies already so I don't like playing with defensive threats that offer delayed returns. If the card didn't ETBT I would be windmill slamming it into my lists but I've noticed that it's a very real drawback in large games. Even if you have Thrull Parasite to "go infinite" with the guy you still can't blank everyone's largest threat each combat. It's a very real drawback and one that I personally don't enjoy having to endure.
I purposely keep my decks Legacy legal. An unrestricted version of this deck would look a lot different.
This is an extremely difficult question to answer. When the card is good it's amazing but sometimes it's just a dumb 4 drop who dies to removal and very little benefit (after all, the card is SCARY AS HELL to leave alive). It also costs infinity dollars and only works in one archetype. Wurmcoil Engine, on the other hand is like fifteen bucks and any deck can run 4. In the dark I would say "don't bother" unless you really, really wanted to play with them and had reason to believe that they wouldn't just immediately die every game. When compared to Crypt Ghast I don't believe that either card is significantly better or worse than the other when they survive for multiple turns and both cards are equally bad when they draw hate and die. Given that one is 50 cents and the other is 25 dollars I feel much more comfortable promoting the cheaper alternative.
You can definitely play this like an MBC deck with draw engines + Gray Merchants and tons of mass removal.
I don't like the Vess but the other cards are ones that I've also employed myself in the past.
Completely up to you. I'm a fan of "Highlander" style decks myself that feature tons of 1-ofs. Having multiple paths of victory can be very beneficial at times insofar as they're all relevant in a significant % of your games. I also agree that having massive amounts of mass removal can be insanely fun in multiplayer. I've noticed a steep decline in its use over the past few years to the point where I almost don't see it in decks nowadays. That's part of the reason why I like this style of deck to begin with, since I don't expect to lose all of my dudes very frequently.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I guess being a one drop is decent, but I feel like he's a bit underwhelming overall.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I personally think that Extort is a ridiculously overpowered ability that far too few people employ. I only ever see it in dedicated Extort decks even though the mechanic is perfectly fine to play "just because." Given that most Extorters have relatively worthless bodies and given that Black has exactly one good 1 drop (Deathrite Shaman) I often play the card in my lists. Paying 1 mana to gain 6 life every time that I cast a spell is a disgusting rate and the 1 extra toughness that oh, say Basilica Screecher would provide for me isn't doing me many favors. Being able to start on turn 1 is also very relevant in Gray Merchant decks since the "nut draw" of dude, dude, dude/draw engine, dude, Gray Merchant doesn't lose many games. If the other Extorters had actual bodies I probably wouldn't bother with the guy but I just don't see any compelling reason to run the more expensive ones. Extort is probably a significantly weaker ability in smaller games but even in a 4 player Chaos game it still seems very good to me. 2HG, ok, sure, it's probably not fantastic. That being said I just don't see how paying 1 mana to globally drain for 1 (for every spell that you cast) can be considered underwhelming in most multiplayer spheres.
For what it's worth I assign 0 value to the "remove counter" ability but it never ceases to impress me in practice. 'Walkers, +1/+1 counters, Charge counters, there's almost always something that you can do with it. For an ability that I do not expect to be relevant at all I'm all pleasantly surprised at how much disruption it can provide. I want to stress that I would happily run a 1 mana 1/1 with Extort, I think that the mechanic is utterly absurd in multiplayer, so everything beyond that is just a bonus.
Otherwise it's just another body to pitch to Sidisi, another source of drain, a potential chump-blocker, a Black pip for Gray Merchant, etc. I like playing four 1 drops in my decks in general and this is one of the most powerful + generic options that you can run in my opinion.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Yeah it's a marginal choice, but it's a political choice which can often have someone gunning with you, rather than against you.
I tend to ask the person most likely to be running targeted removal if they like tokens...
I also run Crypt Ghast and Exsangunate. If you're running one, it would make sense to run the other.
I wouldn't call Hunted Horror a marginal choice. It's by far and away the most interesting 2 drop that you can field in a Black multiplayer deck. Best-case scenario it's an Entomb + Exhume rolled into a single card that absolutely crushes some of the other players. Worst-case scenario it get removed and you take 6 for the next 3 turns until you die. For better or for worse it makes for exceptionally interesting outcomes that few would have predicted going into the match.
The main reason why I don't run Hunted Horror in this style of deck is because it's one of the easiest ways to actually lose games. If you just make land drops and cast spells you're a massive favorite to win so the last thing that you want to do is introduce a whack of variance into the equation. It'll rarely-if-ever have a net positive result assuming that people can pick up on what it is that you're trying to do. Don't get me wrong, I've gotten away with various Hunted Horror shenanigans in the past (in fact I'd put money that you play the card based on a personal recommendation) but the advent of cards like Exsanguinate and Gray Merchant of Asphodel have drastically changed the way that people look at my Black decks. The "sit back and turtle up" plan is ludicrously inadequate when facing an opponent who can easily dome you for ~20 over the the course of 2-3 turns while gaining virtual infinite life in the process. It means that, all things being equal, people generally won't cut you much slack.
If anything that provides you with more incentive to build the "all removal" deck that just uses Phyrexian Arena and Gray Merchant of Asphodel as its Devotion component. The rest of the deck can be Innocent Bloods, Abyssal Gatekeepers, Mutilates, Crux of Fates and Decree of Pains which can all buy time until you Exsanguinate for the kill. Bösium Strip usually ends up doing God's work because doubling your mass removal in a deck that's already drawing 2+ cards per turn is nuts. I kinda don't like playing that style of deck nearly as much anymore since it doesn't make for especially interesting games but it's certainly effective.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My MBC deck is devotion based for the Grey Merchant aswell. For this reason I'm running perm's rather then spells or one-hit's like Abyssal Gatekeeper.
I'm also running Stinkweed Imp, Vengeful Pharaoh and Demigod of Revenge.
Due to the dredge mechanic, I generally find people I play with are wary of killing Stinky, so it's usually affords me some time, or I dredge....
Imp & Pharaoh just make sense together, and I find access to Imp can often make recursion choices like Oversold Cemetery more effective.
I was mostly explaining why I don't run the card myself. There's no such thing as a "perfect" MP deck as far as I'm concerned so the "why" matters a lot more than the "what" in my mind. As much as possible I'm just trying to cover the thought process behind my card choices and why I've omitted others.
For sure. It's not so much that people are wary of killing Stinky, it's moreso that it doesn't actually make any sense to do so. Trading with a "bad" threat that self-recurs and that significantly helps your opponent (Dredging 5 is close to drawing a card) is fairly nonsensical which is a compelling reason to run the card in the first place. Whereas people have played against and lost to Vampire Nighthawks in competitive formats no one gives a damn about a dinky little Dredger in the context of a non-Dredge deck. It's just another dumb Wall that should be ignored by and large.
What I will say is that when I play similar decks I usually go with the Buried Alive + Living Death route as opposed to full-on Devotion. I like binning a bunch of Demigods/Stinkys/Pharaohs and abusing Dredge to make my LDs insane. Living Death is a criminally underplayed card in general given its pricetag so people shouldn't need much of an excuse to field it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Ok, fair, the 1 extra Black pip isn't a make-or-break factor in the equation. The point remains that I love the Extort mechanic in large multiplayer games and that I personally have very little incentive to run anything other than the cheapest enablers for it. If they all have equally worthless bodies then costs and additional effects are what interest me and in this instance I just like being able to play with a legitimately good 1 drop. Again, I like to play 4ish one drops in my MP decks whenever possible but I don't want to run marginal crap that won't significantly impact the game. If I can trigger Extort twice I feel good, three I feel great and at 4 or more my 1 drop has probably made me a favorite to go on to win the game. I doubt that my average use-case of the card is 4 or more activations but I trigger the ability more than enough to extract (what I consider to be) meaningful value from the cards.
Also, Akroan Horse is all kinds of awesome XD.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
That said, I find Parasite is a card people consider an act of aggression for some stupid reason.
I don't play the card as it's a sure fire way for me to get ganged up on and taken down from turn 1.
My MB-Merchant deck is more a mixed strategy to try and avoid people working out my deck, the reason I do this is summed up below;
As for the Gray Merchant "problem," let's just say that it doesn't surprise me to read "btw Gray Merchant is banned in our meta." Paying 5 mana to win the game against any number of opponents using a single card is uhh... well let's just say that it's not exactly fair :). That being said I don't think that people should "never" be allowed to play with powerful Magic cards, especially ones that don't really see play in other formats. You wouldn't want to lose to a turn 1 Limited Resources every game but playing against it once a month probably won't make you quit the game. You're just plain never going to see someone reveal a Chancellor of the Spires on turn 0 only to cast Wight of Precinct Sixes, Nighthowlers, Mortivores, etc. for the rest of the game in other formats so I like playing these "multiplayer only" decks some % of the time (even if they are unfair).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Be nice, my decks aren't that bad :<!
I don't think that Gray Merchant is outright horrendous in "competitive" metas. Budget typically matters significantly more than any banned/restricted list and a lot of what MBD does is easy on the wallet while still being reasonably powerful. Necro does lend itself well to combo decks, that much is clear, but most of the good ones are going to set you back a lot of cash. Using Necro to draw ~10 cards so that you chain GMs isn't the powerful finisher imaginable but for someone looking to invest small amount of money into the game it's not a bad place to start.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I've also tried running Mutilates/Crux in the deck but it's terribly inconsistent. I draw it when I don't need it, and when I'm swarmed I'd rather have more beefy creatures on the board. Either run 8-12 removal or none at all I say. Thinking it's better to add both the Ophinomancer and Vampire Nighthawks. Not sure why I ever thought 2-3 board wipes/removal would be good out of 60 cards. -_-