This is my first time on MTG Salvation and I would like to share my mini-project of the last few years. I have constructed five mono-colored decks for the multiplayer game-type "Star". The rules are described well in this article.
Each deck purposely includes two planeswalkers and their respective Theros God.
Several color hate cards are included, but I do not wish to use any cards that completely screw over their enemy colors (eg. Paladin en-Vec or Boiling Seas). (Also no intimidate, fear, etc.)
Each deck should be as balanced with the others as possible while still being super-powerful for a quick fun match for everyone.
These are the decks as they currently stand:
Each deck should be able to take on it's two enemies, but no card should be unanswerable (eg. Phyrexian Obliterator is only allowed because of Lignify).
I'm happy with how Blue, Black, Green and White have been playing but I feel the Red deck needs focus.
I'm considering adding Eidolon of the Great Revel and swapping Chandra Pyromaster for Chandra, the Firebrand. Combining Lightning Berserker, haste creatures like Ball Lightning or Spark Elemental and sweepers like Blasphemous Act, Pyroclasm and Starstorm could possibly work, clearing the field and then hitting hard.
Either way, I'm very interested to hear any opinions about the decks, suggestions for any cards I may not have thought of, and any help with the Red deck. Thanks in advance.
The Blue deck seems ridiculously underpowered to me. I'm surprised that the Red deck is the weak link. I literally don't understand how the Blue deck can win the game.
I would personally play a Red deck that' something closer to:
The main way the blue deck wins is by not letting anything hit you, using Walls, Propaganda and sigiled unblockables sending creatures back to their owner's hands (and in the Ghastlord's case, exiling them if you want too). It's a longer game for blue, but it definitely works.
I'm curious as to how you would change the blue deck without including anything with complete protection from a colour (eg. Master of Waves.)
I see the idea of combining your burn spells with your creatures. I guess now that I think about it, if the game is heading into the later stages, having a higher curve may be the best option, as we don't want to run out of gas against both opponents. The main problem would be that a lot of the creatures would just get bounced back. I guess Lightning Greaves would place well in the Red deck too.
The main way the blue deck wins is by not letting anything hit you, using Walls, Propaganda and sigiled unblockables sending creatures back to their owner's hands (and in the Ghastlord's case, exiling them if you want too). It's a longer game for blue, but it definitely works.
If it wins games, then it wins games. I would just not expect the Blue list to be able to compete with that the other colors are doing. Walls, evasive 1/1s and Auras aren't even good in most Limited formats let alone one where you have to defeat multiple opponents.
I'm curious as to how you would change the blue deck without including anything with complete protection from a colour (eg. Master of Waves.)
I would re-build it. I just don't think that playing with Walls, bounce, temporary effects, conditional defense, small creatures, etc. is very fun. To each their own, if people enjoy the deck then so be it, I would just much rather be the guy jamming Nighthawks and Obliterators than the one casting Wall of Frost.
I dunno, there are plenty of directions that you could take the deck really. I would just rather hand someone a pile of awesome, powerful cards. It's not even about the winrate really. I obviously have no idea how competitive all 5 decks are, the Black one just seems a whole Hell of a lot more fun. Your cards are big, powerful and do things. Nighthawk into Oblit into Gray Merchant is AWESOME. Compare that to 1/1s and Walls... it just seems weak (seems weak, I don't know if it actually is) and boring.
The main problem would be that a lot of the creatures would just get bounced back. I guess Lightning Greaves would place well in the Red deck too.
Or you just play more cards like Siege-Gang Commander, Zealous Conscripts and Urabrask the Hidden. As long as your 3+ CMC have ETB effects then bouncing isn't a concern. I mean, you can feel free to bounce Flametongue Kavu and/or Inferno Titan as much as you want heh. You could just axe the 5 drops that I proposed, jam some Siege-Gangs in those slots instead, problem solved.
Admittedly I just bought the Obliterators so I'm not sure whether they will be overpowered or not.
I guess the main thing to remember is that while the blue deck may not be as aggressive, it is specifically designed to take down the things that red and green will throw at them and doesn't have to worry about the other colours. Once you get Sigil of Sleep on Invisible Stalker, there's no stopping you. Add propaganda to the mix and you become nigh on impossible to attack (especially with multiples on the field).
The gudul lurkers could be taken out for an alternate win-con, (Nightveil Specters?) but without the massive defense (and trying other cards) I've found blue just isn't quick enough to take on Green and Red's onslaught. I have considered Merfolk, but Master of Waves has pro red.
I'd be very interested to see how you would structure an entire blue deck focused on fighting the red and green decks here, with or without the cards I've used. (Only mandatory inclusions being Thassa and two mono-blue planeswalkers).
Ultimately I want each deck to have a particular feel, theme and playstyle that fits with their colour and differentiates them from the others (rather than just putting the best cards of each in). Right now it's:
* blue being slower but more defensive and not letting the other players do things,
* red being quick and aggressive with damage spells and creatures,
* green being giant ramping and getting a ton of big threats out (or just Primalcrux with greaves on),
* white working all together as a team to become indestructible with late game recursion
* black superb at killing things but not always having the best defense.
Massing ETB effects sounds perfect for the Red deck (perhaps Thunder Dragon as a finisher). However, in the case of fighting the White Knights deck as well, I think more wither creatures would be good to take down the indestructibles along with blue's walls (of course most would have to have more than 2 toughness to avoid just being first striked).
So maybe something like this:
Or you just play more cards like Siege-Gang Commander, Zealous Conscripts and Urabrask the Hidden. As long as your 3+ CMC have ETB effects then bouncing isn't a concern. I mean, you can feel free to bounce Flametongue Kavu and/or Inferno Titan as much as you want heh. You could just axe the 5 drops that I proposed, jam some Siege-Gangs in those slots instead, problem solved.
Exactly what I came in here to say. You've got Purphoros... let's abuse him by making tokens. Siege-Gang should be first cab off the rank in this regard.
If you're determined to be running blue unblockable things, I'd imagine Deep-Sea Kraken and Tidal Kraken should probably be considered if you want to win games with unblockable stuff.
As a blue player I've got to agree that the blue deck would be terrible to play. The cards are just too weak.
I get you're theme of blue meddling but the meddling in this case is just hiding behind some very mediocare walls. You would be spending a lot of your time watching every one else play magic while you played solitarie.
Ultimately I want each deck to have a particular feel, theme and playstyle that fits with their colour and differentiates them from the others (rather than just putting the best cards of each in). Right now it's:
* blue being slower but more defensive and not letting the other players do things
That doesn't work in a format that's basically a giant race to the finish line.
I'm mostly trying to highlight powerful cards and potential options. It's just a pile of good cards that should be reasonably fun to pilot. This is the kind of deck that I would personally want to hand over to a newer player. I'm not very good at building "theme" decks in general because I'd rather just play piles of good-stuffs.
Massing ETB effects sounds perfect for the Red deck (perhaps Thunder Dragon as a finisher). However, in the case of fighting the White Knights deck as well, I think more wither creatures would be good to take down the indestructibles along with blue's walls (of course most would have to have more than 2 toughness to avoid just being first striked).
So maybe something like this:
I would not play the Ram-Gang over Boros Reckoner. If anything I would just remove the indestructible stuff from White. If a specific mechanic is forcing you drastically warp the way in you build the other decks then it's probably not very healthy for the format.
Firstly I'd just like to thank everyone, I really appreciate all of your advice and help.
Unfortunately I'm limiting the cards to only ones with modern bordering, so Callous Oppressor is a no go.
It was funny, I was thinking to myself, how would someone win with the deck you proposed? It seemed impossible. And then I realised. The idea is just to stall until you get something out they cannot handle. I've been playing Blue all wrong. So with a new mindset, I think this will work. And just for fun, I may be able to justify splurging on two cryptic commands (not snapcasters, not four, just two). Let's try this again.
So could something like this work? Sygg and Rhystic Study seem perfect for the format. I still think Propaganda is pretty good for the deck as it stops both opponents attacking you and gives you time, but card draw may be more important.
I would like to apologise for my previous comment. It probably seemed arrogant, insolent and dismissive of your ideas. I assure you this was not my intention. The truth is, you all know this game better than I, and that's why I've come for help.
I've decided I am willing to spend around $150 to $200 to fix the blue deck and make it competitive against the others. Given this, how would you construct it? Would you include Cryptic Commands, or something else entirely? I think spells like Flashfreeze, Encase in Ice and Tidebinder Mage seem perfect for the deck (just no complete protection from an enemy colour like Master of Waves), but you may disagree. I chose Æther Adept because she does exactly what Man-o'-war does, just with more devotion to blue.
I've decided I am willing to spend around $150 to $200 to fix the blue deck and make it competitive against the others. Given this, how would you construct it? Would you include Cryptic Commands, or something else entirely? I think spells like Flashfreeze, Encase in Ice and Tidebinder Mage seem perfect for the deck (just no complete protection from an enemy colour like Master of Waves), but you may disagree. I chose Æther Adept because she does exactly what Man-o'-war does, just with more devotion to blue.
My problem with Cryptic is that it's like a 50 or 60 dollar card. I would personally build something with Counterspells, Cyclonic Rifts, Dismisses, Fact or Fictions, etc. to avoid blowing half of my budget on 2 cards. They're good, don't get me wrong, I just don't think that they're irreplaceable.
With respect to the hosers, they're my least favorite aspect of your decks. I dislike the "I can profitably remove A + B's threats but cannot even touch C's or D's" style. I know, it's Star. You only have to defeat 2 specific opponents in order to win. That doesn't change the fact that I'd rather play with cards like Swords to Plowshares, Doom Blade, Lightning Bolt, etc. that provide me with options. If I can't race to victory I can still stop the other players from finishing too quickly.
For example, I don't like how just because White can go double Knight Exemplar that all of Black's removal has to be -/-. I would much rather see White not have that mechanic so the Black player can just use 4x Doom Blade and 4x Malicious Affliction (or whatever, Ultimate Price, Terror, it doesn't matter) and not have to bother with a bunch of Sudden Spoilings and such. That way you could actually jam in a draw spell like Underworld Connections (or even Syphon Mind) + 2 more Gray Merchants and have a deck that can go long.
The White deck? That removal is cute but I mean Swords to Plowshares is still king. Why hate on colors when there's a 1 CMC answer to everything? Path to Exile is also "fine" and even Condemn is basically just a hard removal spell. These decks mostly win by attacking after all.
With respect to the Blue deck I don't actually like Aether Adept at all. It's a small body and a moderate tempo play in the context of a multiplayer format. Bouncing one creature from one opponent doesn't win games, especially when you're not beating down. I also don't understand why the Devotion matters. You have 1 Thassa that you can't tutor for. Devotion matters what? 15% of your games? Also, again, I just don't like the dedicated hate. If you want to counter spells, 4x Counterspell and maybe 2x Dismiss is probably good enough. Play some Cyclonic Rifts and suddenly you don't need Flashfreezes. Encase in Ice? Again, it just feels boring to me. Your deck has no 4 drops so I'd rather play something like Shorecrasher Elemental in that slot. "Killing" 1 creature is "fine" but you also need to win. Or like, why Encase in Ice over Narcolepsy ever? I still think that you need more bodies, I just don't see any reason to run niche hate cards when there's "strictly better" (more-or-less) normal cards in most colors. I would just rather see these decks with "normal" removal so that people can interact with everyone. That's kind of how Star is supposed to be. You don't need to defeat everyone in order to win but if you literally cannot interact with other player's stuff then it's basically just a race.
I've thought a lot about what you said. Reading the article again, I now agree with you. In the example given, Blue was able to win so easily after defeating Green because Black and White did not have anything in hand to stop Blue and help Red out. In each of my deck's current state, I'd simply be ensuring this would happen. Thank you for helping me get the point.
On the subject of changing the white deck, now that I'm looking at effects that don't just hit two colors, swords is a must have. Prison Term could be fun too, as you could put it on any new creature you think will be a problem. Emeria, the Sky Ruin and Devouring Light seem good as well.
I'm curious how you would build the white deck, whether you'd go for a lifegain theme, or something else. Having only started playing since Theros, my knowledge is somewhat limited and so I don't always know which cards are the best ones to pick.
Edit: I do have a playset of Mother of Runes. Would she be a good fit? (I like protection as a theme for white.)
On the subject of changing the white deck, now that I'm looking at effects that don't just hit two colors, swords is a must have. Prison Term could be fun too, as you could put it on any new creature you think will be a problem. Emeria, the Sky Ruin and Devouring Light seem good as well.
I'm curious how you would build the white deck, whether you'd go for a lifegain theme, or something else. Having only started playing since Theros, my knowledge is somewhat limited and so I don't always know which cards are the best ones to pick.
Edit: I do have a playset of Mother of Runes. Would she be a good fit? (I like protection as a theme for white.)
It all boils down to budget for White. The lifegain decks are "fine" without Archangel of Thune and/or Serra Ascendant but they're very good if you have access to them. The biggest draw of the White lifegain decks is Well of Lost Dreams. It's a legitimately powerful White draw engine in a color that doesn't have much of anything else.
An example of a "basic" White deck might look something like:
It's built with a budget in mind and it's designed to be relatively interactive. I'm not saying that you need to run this exact 60 card iteration but this is more in-line with what I like to hand over to newer players.
The biggest draw of the White lifegain decks is Well of Lost Dreams. It's a legitimately powerful White draw engine in a color that doesn't have much of anything else.
And yet I barely even consider it. It just seems so clunky. Is it really that irreplaceable? Maybe I should try it in my Angelic Accord deck.
It's slow, clunky and bad in multiples. I don't like the card at all. The problem is that it's still the best option for lifegain-based White decks if you're in the market for a persistent card draw engine. White can obviously generate card advantage, ETB triggers and such take card of that, but that's true for every color. At some point you just plain need to draw extra cards (at least in my experience) and the alternatives are all worse. Well of Lost Dreams, if nothing else, has a high power-ceiling. There are tons of equally bad "Illuminated Folio" cards that can nab you an extra card every turn for 1-2 mana but most them cap out real low. The average use-case for the Well isn't that much higher but when the card shines it's easily the best one in your deck.
Trust me, if White had an "Outpost Siege" I would never run things like the Well and Mind's Eye but there just plain aren't good alternatives. EDIT: I should clarify this to say "budget alternatives." Land Tax + Scroll Rack is very strong but not easy on the old wallet :P.
So, went to a draft last night and played Star afterwards with some people there. The decks were still in their forms shown in the top post (except the dragons of Tarkir color hate cards).
Blue lost quickly (despite using an early counterspell on an ally's spell). The deck's strategy was simply too niche, and by the time he began playing the way the deck needed, it was already too late.
Phyrexian Obliterator was extremely powerful, and requires enough answers in the white and green decks to ensure there is no balancing problem. Grasp of Darkness was practically a dead draw in the black deck. Sudden Spoiling was awesome and should be kept, it was used to great effect by black to save another player from being disadvantageously killed off.
Despite everything I said about the red deck, it won the night with ease. While I do think making it more synergistic is important, and having spells like Mizzium Mortars is important to ensure they can last the late game (especially as we upgrade Blue and White) it seems it is doing just fine.
Regardless of whether the Knight Exemplar stays in the white deck, I still really like the interactions that Fiendslayer Paladin creates. It's protection from red and black's noncreature spells ensures that it's opponents have to use their creatures to deal with it. (I don't want cards overlapping between the decks other than maybe Nykthos, so Boros Reckoner should stay with Red.)
Green worked nicely, and nearly won, but ended up with blue gone and black on 1 life. Lignify was useful, but Beast Within may have been preferred as it leaves less toughness on the field to bash through. Three of each could work well.
Discussing the decks with a couple of the players, we worked up a possible new list for the blue deck.
While Frost Breath may not usually be seen as particularly strong, in Star I think it has the potential to be far more useful, tapping down each opponent's biggest threat respectively. Sleep was considered in the slot, but at sorcery speed and only hitting one opponent, it seemed less optimal.
Prid3, I have now taken the time to read your guides on Multiplayer deck building. Firstly thank you for writing them, I feel I have a much more informed view on what cards are best and have updated all the decks. (I even bought some Cryptics, as I had some extra money from public holiday rates.)
I also tried to build each deck with a focus on interactions that I thought would be fun for each player.
After reading your guide, the elves seemed too vulnerable to keep. Utopia Sprawl works better with Garruk and Nissa too. Primalcrux is still the #1 beater in my opinion though for a Nykthos themed deck.
In moving away from Knight Exemplar I wanted to have a focus on lifegain with enough removal to deal with the big threats Red and especially Black would bring out, while having Basilisk Collar as a way to really rack up some card advantage with the first strikers.
Please provide any advice or criticism on my new attempts, I hope to make these decks as good, fun and balanced as possible.
Edit: Yavimaya Hollow only has modern bordering online. Also changed the green deck to contain more permanents for Genesis Wave to hit.
Each deck purposely includes two planeswalkers and their respective Theros God.
Several color hate cards are included, but I do not wish to use any cards that completely screw over their enemy colors (eg. Paladin en-Vec or Boiling Seas). (Also no intimidate, fear, etc.)
Each deck should be as balanced with the others as possible while still being super-powerful for a quick fun match for everyone.
These are the decks as they currently stand:
22 Plains
Creatures (23)
4 Student of Warfare
3 Leonin Skyhunter
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Fiendslayer Paladin
4 Knight Exemplar
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
3 Sun Titan
2 Faith's Shield
3 Brave the Elements
4 Celestial Purge
4 Surge of Righteousness
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
22 Island
Creatures (18)
4 Gudul Lurker
3 Fog Bank
4 Invisible Stalker
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Wall of Frost
2 Ghastlord of Fugue
4 Counterspell
2 Polymorphist's Jest
3 Sigil of Sleep
4 Propaganda
3 Swiftfoot Boots
2 Bident of Thassa
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
22 Swamp
Creatures (19)
2 Vampire Hexmage
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Grave Titan
1 Reaper from the Abyss
4 Tragic Slip
4 Grasp of Darkness
4 Malicious Affliction
4 Sudden Spoiling
1 Corrupt
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Sorin Markov
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
20 Forest
Creatures (22)
2 Elvish Mystic
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Leatherback Baloth
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Vorapede
2 Primalcrux
1 Khalni Hydra
1 Archetype of Endurance
3 Autumn's Veil
2 Genesis Wave
4 Lignify
4 Lightning Greaves
Planeswalkers (2)
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
20 Mountain
Creatures (22)
2 Vexing Devil
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Stigma Lasher
2 Stormblood Berserker
2 Kargan Dragonlord
2 Boros Reckoner
2 Mindsparker
2 Chandra's Phoenix
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
2 Hellrider
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rending Volley
2 Thunderous Wrath
4 Traitorous Blood
Planeswalkers (2)
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Koth of the Hammer
Each deck should be able to take on it's two enemies, but no card should be unanswerable (eg. Phyrexian Obliterator is only allowed because of Lignify).
I'm happy with how Blue, Black, Green and White have been playing but I feel the Red deck needs focus.
I'm considering adding Eidolon of the Great Revel and swapping Chandra Pyromaster for Chandra, the Firebrand. Combining Lightning Berserker, haste creatures like Ball Lightning or Spark Elemental and sweepers like Blasphemous Act, Pyroclasm and Starstorm could possibly work, clearing the field and then hitting hard.
Either way, I'm very interested to hear any opinions about the decks, suggestions for any cards I may not have thought of, and any help with the Red deck. Thanks in advance.
I would personally play a Red deck that' something closer to:
23x Mountain
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Creatures(23)
3x Figure of Destiny
2x Stigma Lasher
2x Kargan Dragonlord
2x Boros Reckoner
2x Mindsparker
2x Taurean Mauler
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
4x Flametongue Kavu
2x Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
1x Scourge of Geier Reach
2x Inferno Titan
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Mizzium Mortars
2x Outpost Siege
Planeswalkers (2)
1x Chandra, Pyromaster
1x Koth of the Hammer
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'm curious as to how you would change the blue deck without including anything with complete protection from a colour (eg. Master of Waves.)
I see the idea of combining your burn spells with your creatures. I guess now that I think about it, if the game is heading into the later stages, having a higher curve may be the best option, as we don't want to run out of gas against both opponents. The main problem would be that a lot of the creatures would just get bounced back. I guess Lightning Greaves would place well in the Red deck too.
If it wins games, then it wins games. I would just not expect the Blue list to be able to compete with that the other colors are doing. Walls, evasive 1/1s and Auras aren't even good in most Limited formats let alone one where you have to defeat multiple opponents.
I would re-build it. I just don't think that playing with Walls, bounce, temporary effects, conditional defense, small creatures, etc. is very fun. To each their own, if people enjoy the deck then so be it, I would just much rather be the guy jamming Nighthawks and Obliterators than the one casting Wall of Frost.
There are a lot of ways to build Blue decks. One option is the Vedalken Engineer, Renowned Weaponsmith, Grand Architect, Treasure Mage style deck filled with Scuttling Doom Engines, Myr Battlepsheres, whatever. Another option is a basic "good stuffs" deck that has things like Azure Mage, Callous Oppressor, Control Magic, Fact or Fiction, Sturmgeist, Mulldrifter, Frost Titan, Opportunity and Diluvian Primordial. Monoblue Cloudpost is also a thing and plays similarly to the Vedalken Engineer decks.
I dunno, there are plenty of directions that you could take the deck really. I would just rather hand someone a pile of awesome, powerful cards. It's not even about the winrate really. I obviously have no idea how competitive all 5 decks are, the Black one just seems a whole Hell of a lot more fun. Your cards are big, powerful and do things. Nighthawk into Oblit into Gray Merchant is AWESOME. Compare that to 1/1s and Walls... it just seems weak (seems weak, I don't know if it actually is) and boring.
Or you just play more cards like Siege-Gang Commander, Zealous Conscripts and Urabrask the Hidden. As long as your 3+ CMC have ETB effects then bouncing isn't a concern. I mean, you can feel free to bounce Flametongue Kavu and/or Inferno Titan as much as you want heh. You could just axe the 5 drops that I proposed, jam some Siege-Gangs in those slots instead, problem solved.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I guess the main thing to remember is that while the blue deck may not be as aggressive, it is specifically designed to take down the things that red and green will throw at them and doesn't have to worry about the other colours. Once you get Sigil of Sleep on Invisible Stalker, there's no stopping you. Add propaganda to the mix and you become nigh on impossible to attack (especially with multiples on the field).
The gudul lurkers could be taken out for an alternate win-con, (Nightveil Specters?) but without the massive defense (and trying other cards) I've found blue just isn't quick enough to take on Green and Red's onslaught. I have considered Merfolk, but Master of Waves has pro red.
I'd be very interested to see how you would structure an entire blue deck focused on fighting the red and green decks here, with or without the cards I've used. (Only mandatory inclusions being Thassa and two mono-blue planeswalkers).
Ultimately I want each deck to have a particular feel, theme and playstyle that fits with their colour and differentiates them from the others (rather than just putting the best cards of each in). Right now it's:
* blue being slower but more defensive and not letting the other players do things,
* red being quick and aggressive with damage spells and creatures,
* green being giant ramping and getting a ton of big threats out (or just Primalcrux with greaves on),
* white working all together as a team to become indestructible with late game recursion
* black superb at killing things but not always having the best defense.
Massing ETB effects sounds perfect for the Red deck (perhaps Thunder Dragon as a finisher). However, in the case of fighting the White Knights deck as well, I think more wither creatures would be good to take down the indestructibles along with blue's walls (of course most would have to have more than 2 toughness to avoid just being first striked).
So maybe something like this:
21 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Creatures (22)
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Stigma Lasher
2 Kargan Dragonlord
2 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Urabrask the Hidden
2 Zealous Conscripts
2 Inferno Titan
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rending Volley
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Outpost Siege
Planeswalkers (2)
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Koth of the Hammer
As always thank you for all your help, it is greatly appreciated.
Exactly what I came in here to say. You've got Purphoros... let's abuse him by making tokens. Siege-Gang should be first cab off the rank in this regard.
If you're determined to be running blue unblockable things, I'd imagine Deep-Sea Kraken and Tidal Kraken should probably be considered if you want to win games with unblockable stuff.
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I get you're theme of blue meddling but the meddling in this case is just hiding behind some very mediocare walls. You would be spending a lot of your time watching every one else play magic while you played solitarie.
Blue has some great cards that meddle on a mass scale like Evacute, Mirrorweave or Curse of the swine. Even on a cheaper scale things like Man-o-war and Echoing Truth mess with peoples game plan.
I also can't see how you can win. The is nothing that causes any signifcant damage outside of the Ghastlord. The point of playing the long game is to drop bombs at the long game. Where are the Consecrated Sphinxs, Ætherlings, Frost Titans, Inkwell Leviathans, Keiga, the Tide Star.
Frost Titan and Diluvian Primordial are both a dollar. Deadeye Navigator? Also a buck :3. Blue can cast some scary stuff without breaking the bank ^^.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
That doesn't work in a format that's basically a giant race to the finish line.
Example Blue deck:
25x Island
Creatures (22)
4x Frostburn Weird
2x Azure Mage
4x Nightveil Specter
2x Callous Oppressor
1x Thassa, God of the Sea
2x Clever Impersonator
3x Mulldrifter
2x Frost Titan
2x Diluvian Primordial
4x Counterspell
2x Cyclonic Rift
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Bident of Thassa
1x Control Magic
2x Fact or Fiction
1x Future Sight
I'm mostly trying to highlight powerful cards and potential options. It's just a pile of good cards that should be reasonably fun to pilot. This is the kind of deck that I would personally want to hand over to a newer player. I'm not very good at building "theme" decks in general because I'd rather just play piles of good-stuffs.
I would not play the Ram-Gang over Boros Reckoner. If anything I would just remove the indestructible stuff from White. If a specific mechanic is forcing you drastically warp the way in you build the other decks then it's probably not very healthy for the format.
Thunder Dragon is almost strictly worse than Molten Primordial as a finisher.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Unfortunately I'm limiting the cards to only ones with modern bordering, so Callous Oppressor is a no go.
It was funny, I was thinking to myself, how would someone win with the deck you proposed? It seemed impossible. And then I realised. The idea is just to stall until you get something out they cannot handle. I've been playing Blue all wrong. So with a new mindset, I think this will work. And just for fun, I may be able to justify splurging on two cryptic commands (not snapcasters, not four, just two). Let's try this again.
25 Island
Creatures (15)
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Tidebinder Mage
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
4 Æther Adept
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Frost Titan
4 Counterspell
4 Flashfreeze
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Cryptic Command
4 Encase in Ice
2 Rhystic Study
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
So could something like this work? Sygg and Rhystic Study seem perfect for the format. I still think Propaganda is pretty good for the deck as it stops both opponents attacking you and gives you time, but card draw may be more important.
I've decided I am willing to spend around $150 to $200 to fix the blue deck and make it competitive against the others. Given this, how would you construct it? Would you include Cryptic Commands, or something else entirely? I think spells like Flashfreeze, Encase in Ice and Tidebinder Mage seem perfect for the deck (just no complete protection from an enemy colour like Master of Waves), but you may disagree. I chose Æther Adept because she does exactly what Man-o'-war does, just with more devotion to blue.
The cards I do not already own in the list above are:
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Cryptic Command
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Rhystic Study
My problem with Cryptic is that it's like a 50 or 60 dollar card. I would personally build something with Counterspells, Cyclonic Rifts, Dismisses, Fact or Fictions, etc. to avoid blowing half of my budget on 2 cards. They're good, don't get me wrong, I just don't think that they're irreplaceable.
With respect to the hosers, they're my least favorite aspect of your decks. I dislike the "I can profitably remove A + B's threats but cannot even touch C's or D's" style. I know, it's Star. You only have to defeat 2 specific opponents in order to win. That doesn't change the fact that I'd rather play with cards like Swords to Plowshares, Doom Blade, Lightning Bolt, etc. that provide me with options. If I can't race to victory I can still stop the other players from finishing too quickly.
For example, I don't like how just because White can go double Knight Exemplar that all of Black's removal has to be -/-. I would much rather see White not have that mechanic so the Black player can just use 4x Doom Blade and 4x Malicious Affliction (or whatever, Ultimate Price, Terror, it doesn't matter) and not have to bother with a bunch of Sudden Spoilings and such. That way you could actually jam in a draw spell like Underworld Connections (or even Syphon Mind) + 2 more Gray Merchants and have a deck that can go long.
The White deck? That removal is cute but I mean Swords to Plowshares is still king. Why hate on colors when there's a 1 CMC answer to everything? Path to Exile is also "fine" and even Condemn is basically just a hard removal spell. These decks mostly win by attacking after all.
With respect to the Blue deck I don't actually like Aether Adept at all. It's a small body and a moderate tempo play in the context of a multiplayer format. Bouncing one creature from one opponent doesn't win games, especially when you're not beating down. I also don't understand why the Devotion matters. You have 1 Thassa that you can't tutor for. Devotion matters what? 15% of your games? Also, again, I just don't like the dedicated hate. If you want to counter spells, 4x Counterspell and maybe 2x Dismiss is probably good enough. Play some Cyclonic Rifts and suddenly you don't need Flashfreezes. Encase in Ice? Again, it just feels boring to me. Your deck has no 4 drops so I'd rather play something like Shorecrasher Elemental in that slot. "Killing" 1 creature is "fine" but you also need to win. Or like, why Encase in Ice over Narcolepsy ever? I still think that you need more bodies, I just don't see any reason to run niche hate cards when there's "strictly better" (more-or-less) normal cards in most colors. I would just rather see these decks with "normal" removal so that people can interact with everyone. That's kind of how Star is supposed to be. You don't need to defeat everyone in order to win but if you literally cannot interact with other player's stuff then it's basically just a race.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I like the look of Shorecrasher Elemental. It'll curve nicely into Morphling, then to Frost Titan and/or Consecrated Sphinx and maybe a Keiga, the Tide Star (after all it could be fun to steal an Obliterator or something).
On the subject of changing the white deck, now that I'm looking at effects that don't just hit two colors, swords is a must have.
Prison Term could be fun too, as you could put it on any new creature you think will be a problem. Emeria, the Sky Ruin and Devouring Light seem good as well.
I'm curious how you would build the white deck, whether you'd go for a lifegain theme, or something else. Having only started playing since Theros, my knowledge is somewhat limited and so I don't always know which cards are the best ones to pick.
Edit: I do have a playset of Mother of Runes. Would she be a good fit? (I like protection as a theme for white.)
It all boils down to budget for White. The lifegain decks are "fine" without Archangel of Thune and/or Serra Ascendant but they're very good if you have access to them. The biggest draw of the White lifegain decks is Well of Lost Dreams. It's a legitimately powerful White draw engine in a color that doesn't have much of anything else.
An example of a "basic" White deck might look something like:
17x Plains
4x Myriad Landscape
2x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Creatures (23)
3x Mother of Runes
3x Syndic of Tithes
2x Serene master
4x Boros Reckoner
2x High Sentinels of Arashin
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
3x Archon of Justice
2x Sun Titan
2x Angel of Serenity
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Gift of Estates
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Comeuppance
2x Mass Calcify
It's built with a budget in mind and it's designed to be relatively interactive. I'm not saying that you need to run this exact 60 card iteration but this is more in-line with what I like to hand over to newer players.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
It's slow, clunky and bad in multiples. I don't like the card at all. The problem is that it's still the best option for lifegain-based White decks if you're in the market for a persistent card draw engine. White can obviously generate card advantage, ETB triggers and such take card of that, but that's true for every color. At some point you just plain need to draw extra cards (at least in my experience) and the alternatives are all worse. Well of Lost Dreams, if nothing else, has a high power-ceiling. There are tons of equally bad "Illuminated Folio" cards that can nab you an extra card every turn for 1-2 mana but most them cap out real low. The average use-case for the Well isn't that much higher but when the card shines it's easily the best one in your deck.
Trust me, if White had an "Outpost Siege" I would never run things like the Well and Mind's Eye but there just plain aren't good alternatives. EDIT: I should clarify this to say "budget alternatives." Land Tax + Scroll Rack is very strong but not easy on the old wallet :P.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Blue lost quickly (despite using an early counterspell on an ally's spell). The deck's strategy was simply too niche, and by the time he began playing the way the deck needed, it was already too late.
Phyrexian Obliterator was extremely powerful, and requires enough answers in the white and green decks to ensure there is no balancing problem. Grasp of Darkness was practically a dead draw in the black deck. Sudden Spoiling was awesome and should be kept, it was used to great effect by black to save another player from being disadvantageously killed off.
Despite everything I said about the red deck, it won the night with ease. While I do think making it more synergistic is important, and having spells like Mizzium Mortars is important to ensure they can last the late game (especially as we upgrade Blue and White) it seems it is doing just fine.
Regardless of whether the Knight Exemplar stays in the white deck, I still really like the interactions that Fiendslayer Paladin creates. It's protection from red and black's noncreature spells ensures that it's opponents have to use their creatures to deal with it. (I don't want cards overlapping between the decks other than maybe Nykthos, so Boros Reckoner should stay with Red.)
Green worked nicely, and nearly won, but ended up with blue gone and black on 1 life. Lignify was useful, but Beast Within may have been preferred as it leaves less toughness on the field to bash through. Three of each could work well.
Discussing the decks with a couple of the players, we worked up a possible new list for the blue deck.
24 Island
Creatures (7)
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
2 Frost Titan
4 Brainstorm
2 Mana Leak
4 Cyclonic Rift
4 Counterspell
4 Frost Breath
2 Cryptic Command
3 Propaganda
3 Rhystic Study
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
While Frost Breath may not usually be seen as particularly strong, in Star I think it has the potential to be far more useful, tapping down each opponent's biggest threat respectively. Sleep was considered in the slot, but at sorcery speed and only hitting one opponent, it seemed less optimal.
I also tried to build each deck with a focus on interactions that I thought would be fun for each player.
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
24 Island
Creatures (14)
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Cryptoplasm
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
3 Clever Impersonator
1 Keiga, the Tide Star
2 Consecrated Sphinx
4 Cyclonic Rift
4 Counterspell
3 Cryptic Command
4 Rhystic Study
4 Propaganda
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
The deck disrupts anything it doesn't want to deal with and clones everything from it's enemies stuff to it's allies as well.
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
22 Mountain
Creatures (24)
4 Figure of Destiny
2 Stigma Lasher
2 Kargan Dragonlord
2 Æther Membrane
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Urabrask the Hidden
1 Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
2 Zealous Conscripts
2 Inferno Titan
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mizzium Mortars
2 Outpost Siege
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Koth of the Hammer
I attempted to use the good cards in your primer and attempt to determine which I thought would be best in my star meta.
2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
20 Forest
Creatures (18)
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Predator Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Vorapede
3 Primalcrux
4 Beast Within
3 Genesis Wave
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Lightning Greaves
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
After reading your guide, the elves seemed too vulnerable to keep. Utopia Sprawl works better with Garruk and Nissa too. Primalcrux is still the #1 beater in my opinion though for a Nykthos themed deck.
24 Swamp
Creatures (21)
2 Vampire Hexmage
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
4 Doom Blade
4 Malicious Affliction
4 Syphon Mind
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Sorin Markov
This deck scares me just thinking about it.
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
21 Plains
Creatures (21)
2 Mother of Runes
2 Soul's Attendant
3 Soul Warden
4 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
3 Archangel of Thune
1 Sun Titan
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Brave the Elements
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Basilisk Collar
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
In moving away from Knight Exemplar I wanted to have a focus on lifegain with enough removal to deal with the big threats Red and especially Black would bring out, while having Basilisk Collar as a way to really rack up some card advantage with the first strikers.
Please provide any advice or criticism on my new attempts, I hope to make these decks as good, fun and balanced as possible.
Edit: Yavimaya Hollow only has modern bordering online. Also changed the green deck to contain more permanents for Genesis Wave to hit.