MTG Salvation

After seeing the new M15 slivers in action this weekend, I decided to draw upon the latest threads in the Standard (SliverBeats) and EDH forums (A guide to all things Sliver Overlord) along with a few dormant threads from this forum (Rainbow Sliver, Sliver Deck, and Some help on my multiplayer sliver deck) to start a new discussion on potentially two archetypes to play in today's 'pick the most efficient Sliver in print' approach.

Right now I'm looking at two shells: Bant control and 5-color aggro.





The Bant Control shell seems to be lacking a win con and it's not my area of expertise. Some advice and discussion would be great!

**Updated lists**

Seems like a crime to not include Psionic Sliver. With lifelink you're tapping them for 5 life a piece as well as taking out tons of creatures, especially once you get deathtouch online. With Dormant Sliver out you won't be attacking anyway. Sliver Hivelord or even Megantic Sliver keep your guys from killing themselves.

Your shells are kind of weird. The best sliver decks, to me, have the following ones:



Or something very very very very close to this. The simple fact of the matter is that turn 1 Galerider Sliver turn 2 "mana Sliver" turn 3 Hivelord is the stone nuts and any other draw will be worse. Beyond that you just need Crystalline Sliver for the "lock" and as long as you have Syphon Sliver losing won't be easy. The rest of the deck can be draw, pump, Eldrazi Monuments, etc. but I mean I would basically always play these cards. I like the sound of Psionic Sliver a lot, that seems sweet, and Dormant Sliver seems great too. That's a great way to flesh the deck out. Still, I mean, I wouldn't deviate from the "Core" which is what I've already listed.

For the record I don't think that Diffusion Sliver, Quick Sliver, Leeching Sliver and even Heart Sliver are remotely playable. None of these effects seem especially powerful to me. You even have Opaline Sliver in the Bant list. You do realize how insane Crystalline Sliver is right? That card is... unreal lol.

The fact you can run all of Prid3's shell (which is very solid) and still likely squeeze in 12x copies of Muscle Sliver is exciting. I would run at least one Harmonic Sliver and I doubt the usefulness of Venom Sliver; you're going for flying shrouded indestructible lifelinkers, ...deathtouch just seems greedy when you could be pumping or adding additional utility.

Quote from Giblets »

The fact you can run all of Prid3's shell (which is very solid) and still likely squeeze in 12x copies of Muscle Sliver is exciting.

Or whatever the Hell that you want. The card is absurd. It means that anything and everything is now viable. You want lords? Go for it. You want Dormant + Psionic? Go for it. Play anything. It all works now. Like I couldn't imagine playing something that didn't have 4 Galeriders 8 mana dorks and 4 Hivelords because that one draw is so disgustingly overpowered that it doesn't matter what the rest of your deck is. Slivers are, for the first time ever, a seriously competitive tribe in my mind.

CZ,

Your shell looks really fun. What would your additional cards be in your meta. I tend to face both Wraths and single removal effects while playing in a 4-5 man meta

I'd actually run a couple Reflecting Pools instead of Ancient Ziggurats and/or Rupture Spires. You'd only need 1 of the other 12+ lands that produce any color mana for it to work.

I was watching the Star City Games Legacy open last weekend with someone playing a slivers list with a mana base similar to what CZ posted and the guy had 2 Ancient Ziggurats in play that completely screwed him over because he couldn't use that mana to activate Mutavault or Sliver Hive.

Quote from H2O4Sho »

CZ,
Your shell looks really fun. What would your additional cards be in your meta. I tend to face both Wraths and single removal effects while playing in a 4-5 man meta

I always play 1 Steely Resolve in tribal decks and I'd still play it even with Crystallines. Harmonic Sliver can screw you over at times but it's not enough of a deterrent to stop me from running it. My favorite Sliver is Might Sliver because I can cast it on turn 3 and it helps me save on lords. I don't know if he's actually better than Megantic Sliver but I haven't played Slivers in a long time so I have no idea one way or another. I probably go up to 3 Homings and down to 3 Syphons from my proposed list. From there I'd add 2x Sentinel Sliver because I think that that card is insane. I'd play 1 Megantic to test out/tutor out but I wouldn't play more than that. Beyond that my bread is butter is usually cheap lords and card advantage. Syphon Mind works for me in my huge 7ish player games but I imagine that other cards could work too. It's too broken for me to omit in any Black deck though. Any extra slots would likely be used on smallish lords and a single Harmonic Sliver. The thing about me is that I don't really do decks. I just shuffle up and play whatever I want. The only constants in my lists are 4 card advantage spells (at least) and some broken "build-around-me" (such as Sliver Hivelord). If I find a shell that I like I'll re-use it but I mean the "filler" would change from game to game. Like I would 100% test versions with Dormant + Psionic because that seems sweet. Dormant Sliver can never be that bad because Necrotic Sliver is usually solid and the combo seems fun. I've played Dormant Sliver + Eldrazi Monument to great success in the past as well and I'd likely test 1-2 Monuments just to ensure that I could see the effect every game. Sliver Hive does make the Monument much easier to support after all.

What I will say is that there are Slivers that I don't like playing. Evasion (other than Galerider), protection (other than Crystalline), and marginal keyword (reach, flash, haste) Slivers will almost never make it into my decks. Tribal decks either reach a critical mass and win or lose to removal. The last thing that I find myself needing is random "silver bullets" that might offer small value in niche scenarios. That's why my decks always max out on protection and card advantage in the slots where most people run random 1-ofs. At the end of the day slamming Steely Resolve, Syphon Mind and/or Eldrazi Monument will prevent me from losing games whereas Heart Sliver will probably never win me any.

Quote from Decay57 »

I'd actually run a couple Reflecting Pools instead of Ancient Ziggurats and/or Rupture Spires. You'd only need 1 of the other 12+ lands that produce any color mana for it to work.

I was watching the Star City Games Legacy open last weekend with someone playing a slivers list with a mana base similar to what CZ posted and the guy had 2 Ancient Ziggurats in play that completely screwed him over because he couldn't use that mana to activate Mutavault or Sliver Hive.

I mean Pool is another $10.00 card which is basically the last thing that the deck needs. I don't think that Mutavaults are needed at all and activating the Hive is the least of your concerns when playing a tribal deck. Either you'll amass a strong board and win or you'll get removaled out and lose. In a duel you actually need to beat down with your 'Vaults but I mean in MP it's almost entirely win-more. When you are using your Vaults to attack/block it's probably because you got the game on lock (at least for the time being). I'm not saying that Spire is the best card or anything but it's basically free. The real "best" base probably does have Pool and Forbidden Orchard but I mean Spire is cheap and gets the job done.

Quote from Prid3 »

I mean Pool is another $10.00 card which is basically the last thing that the deck needs. I don't think that Mutavaults are needed at all and activating the Hive is the least of your concerns when playing a tribal deck. Either you'll amass a strong board and win or you'll get removaled out and lose. In a duel you actually need to beat down with your 'Vaults but I mean in MP it's almost entirely win-more. When you are using your Vaults to attack/block it's probably because you got the game on lock (at least for the time being). I'm not saying that Spire is the best card or anything but it's basically free. The real "best" base probably does have Pool and Forbidden Orchard but I mean Spire is cheap and gets the job done.

Reflecting Pool was reprinted in Conspiracy and is actually down to $3.25 now. So not too expensive as a 2-3 of.

Quote from Decay57 »

Quote from Prid3 »

I mean Pool is another $10.00 card which is basically the last thing that the deck needs. I don't think that Mutavaults are needed at all and activating the Hive is the least of your concerns when playing a tribal deck. Either you'll amass a strong board and win or you'll get removaled out and lose. In a duel you actually need to beat down with your 'Vaults but I mean in MP it's almost entirely win-more. When you are using your Vaults to attack/block it's probably because you got the game on lock (at least for the time being). I'm not saying that Spire is the best card or anything but it's basically free. The real "best" base probably does have Pool and Forbidden Orchard but I mean Spire is cheap and gets the job done.

Reflecting Pool was reprinted in Conspiracy and is actually down to $3.25 now. So not too expensive as a 2-3 of.

Ah good to know. I don't keep up with prices nearly as much as I used to.

Made some updates based on discussion.

I agree that ETB tapped lands are bad for Slivers and I wouldn't play them ever. Forbidden Orchard seems bad if Galerider isn't in play since we aren't using Trample.

Quote from calderstrake »

Made some updates based on discussion.

I agree that ETB tapped lands are bad for Slivers and I wouldn't play them ever. Forbidden Orchard seems bad if Galerider isn't in play since we aren't using Trample.

The downside of Forbidden Orchard is so so minimal in reality.

Another sliver deck I brewed last year that you could try is a combo sliver deck similar to the legacy combo elves deck. The strategy is to get Aluren and Dormant Sliver out while all your other slivers cost 3 or less.



Once you have Aluren and Dormant Sliver and Hibernation Sliver you should be able to draw and play your whole deck for free and then bounce the Dormant Sliver back to your hand and swing in with haste, lifelink, vigilance, trample, first strike etc.

Thanks Cz. Going to brew that bad boy up. Reflecting Pools seem mandatory for this deck and being cheap is a bonus. Appreciate the list

Quote from stylianos »

Great thread, I was also looking for a decent sliver deck. Prid3's list is awesome, but a bit pricey - do you think there is a way to have a strong sliver deck which is more budget-friendly. I dont mind getting 4 Hivelords, but the mana base is very expensive, also some of the other slivers.

Low estimate on my list is $200~ If you want to lower the price, just play with ETB tapped lands and omit the Mutavaults.

Wow, I was busy in July... how the heck did I miss this thread the first time around?
Am I the only one who thinks four Gemhides and four Manawefts is just the Department of Redundancy Department? Slivers are all about throwing a whole smegload of different abilities on all of your creatures at the same time. When you've got eight all adding the same ability...
If you've got lots of Armageddons running around in your meta, I can understand it, but I still don't think I'd run eight.
Prid3 is pretty much spot on, as usual, with his list, and I think the above is perfectly close enough to that to work well. Only a couple of cards I'd consider on top of that:

• Virulent Sliver makes for a great alternate win-con, and I haven't seen that mentioned in the thread yet. Would've given Calderstrak's Bant list in the OP a decent win method, too.
• I am fond of running Acidic Sliver in my lists, even if it's just a singleton. I have lost count of the times I've had attacking locked down (via Stasis, Ghostly Prison, Blazing Archon etc. etc.), and Acidic has bailed me out with an alternate win-con that can take out a control player.
• Once upon a time, I stumbled upon Dominaria's Judgment, which was good for a laugh in my current Sliver Overlord EDH deck. I don't recommend it for everyone, and you'd certainly only want one, but it is good for a laugh!

Other than that, Homing Sliver and Crystalline Sliver are the keys. Once they're on the table, everything becomes easy.

Quote from CadaverousBl00m »

Am I the only one who thinks four Gemhides and four Manawefts is just the Department of Redundancy Department? Slivers are all about throwing a whole smegload of different abilities on all of your creatures at the same time. When you've got eight all adding the same ability...
If you've got lots of Armageddons running around in your meta, I can understand it, but I still don't think I'd run eight.
Prid3 is pretty much spot on, as usual, with his list, and I think the above is perfectly close enough to that to work well.

Finally following up on this... Interesting to note, Cz does recommend 8x mana dorks as well. The redundancy is to ensure you get a hand with at least one possibly two so that you can turn three Hivelord if it's in your hand or get out multiple abilities. Also, they can be used as sac fodder to keep the ones with abilities online and take on the abilities of others at a very low CMC.

8 dorks is a no-brainer for me. Overlord is the best card in the deck and I'd aggressively mull for it every game. Since you get a free mull in MP and since going to 6 is "fine" that's 3 looks of 7-7-6 to find one. Since I'd want to keep EVERY starting hand with an OL I'd want 90% of my ~6+ card hands to be keepable. Since you can keep any hand with 2 lands and a mana Sliver and since you can probably win the majority of the games in which you resolve an OL I see no real reason to play fewer than 8.

I could be wrong but that's my justification.

Quote from Prid3 »

Overlord is the best card in the deck and I'd aggressively mull for it every game.

I assume you mean Hivelord, not Overlord, given that's what's in your list up the top of the post?
Yeah, if your entire aim in life is to get the WUBRG Gorilla onto the board, then I can see running eight.
I am just used to sticking a five-colour Sliver toolbox in these decks, and then aggressively fetching these things with Homing Sliver (I would much rather be running four Homies than eight Gemhides for this reason). But you're correct in that Homie is going to be making all this happen later than just ramping Hivelord onto the board on Turn 3 and smashing face. Two different Sliver strategies, I suppose.

Slivers lose to significant amounts of removal and combo but beat most fair decks to a bloody pulp. How much removal, both spot and mass, do you expect to be facing down? Will your Gemhide Slivers actually survive or do they figure to bite the dust immediately?

You don't need to play the manabase that I suggested by any means. I'm just too lazy to come up with something reasonable. I don't play 5 color decks period, let alone ones that want to cast a RWGUB spell on turn ~3. I also don't think that you're going to get that much help from people who actually play 5 color Slivers in multiplayer Constructed so you'll probably have to do most of the legwork yourself. My advice would be to download a goldfish program and test out some mana bases that you can actually afford, possibly using cards that you already own. It doesn't need to be perfect or anything but as long as it's playable then you should be fine. For what it's worth, I don't recommend running Artifacts because the 8 mana Slivers should be good enough and if you want to make room for spells it should probably be draw. You'll need more of that any anything else in my mind (unless you play a version with Dormant Sliver and Psionic Sliver, which is actually very reasonable).

Unless you expect you Gemhides to die right away, I suggest G/U lands, with the Sliverhives. Works just fine.

Quote from stylianos »

It's strange... The guys run spot removal and wraths in my meta - but they never gun down my Joraga Treespeakers in my green ramp deck. So I dont expect the manaslivers to die right away.

I don't consider that to be very strange. There's a very good reason why I tell people to test Joraga Treespeaker lol. The fact of the matter is that MP isn't a duel. You do not play spot removal to hinder a single opponent's gameplan. That's a horrendous, game-losing proposition that helps the free-riders who passively benefit from your generosity way more than it helps you. You can, however, play spot removal as defense against attackers. A lot of people understand that it's marginal at best but at the same time you can sometimes need a bit of it to avoid taking too much needless damage (at any stage of the game). Playing with spot removal and using it to kill attackers helps to dissuade attacks in current/future games since players can easily develop reputations as being "removal users." Using removal offensively doesn't usually make much sense, you're helping the table more than you're helping yourself, but as long as you use it defensively then you're still keeping #1 in mind.

If I'm trying to keep this modern legal would yall put diffusion sliver in place of crystalline sliver or should I fill the slots with others? I was thinking maybe constricting or venom just to cut down on people attacking me or to exile some people's big guys under indestructible guys.

Definitely not as ideal as crystalline haha