I have been tinkering around with the idea of this deck for a while now - essentially I want to stick down one rebel (and ideally Training Grounds) and then play draw-go for the rest of the match.
I think the Training Grounds is pretty much essential to the deck, as it makes recruiting rebels relatively cheap. I like the idea of the wishboard - I can see a desert coalition stumbling across a genie to thwart their foes! Dictate of Heliod is also pretty sweet in response to sweepers.
You have too many ETBT Lands, which will make you weak against aggro. Yes, I know it's Multiplayer but weakness is an invitation for attack. And if you insist on using ETBT Lands, there is way better than what you got. Emeria, the Sky Ruin, Sejiri Refuge/Temple of Enlightenment.
For a control deck you have no way to Wrath. I'd suggest Harsh Mercy though I am also fond of Rout and Martial Coup. Also, the nukes like Akroma's Vengeance/Planar Cleasing. You have a far easier way to rebuilding your resources so board wipes should theoretically favour you the most.
I don't like Wishboards. If you need X, then you're giving your opponent two outs to stop you. For example, you have no way to destroy Enchanments/Artifacts, not even main. Oblivion Stone seems like quite good.
I'd throw in a Changeling Hero. You can tutor it up in response to a wrath to save Lin-sivvi, who can then be used to rebuild the board.
A couple more pieces of countermagic might be nice too, since your Rebels can activate at instant speed, so you always have a mana sink if you leave counter mana up.
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I love the Changeling Hero idea - that's going in right away.
Harsh Mercy doesn't seem like it does much for me - everyone gets to keep at least their very best creature. I do like the idea of Rout since I can continue to live life in the fast lane.
You're most likely right about the wishboard as well - I'm essentially tacking on 2U to the cost of what I want to be playing in the first place.
Gaea's Cradle typically outclasses those cards, as it takes up no deck space and creates tons of mana without a tax. Not quite so budget, friendly, I'm afraid.
I think the Rule of Law is pretty much the best tech ever. It shuts down so many strategies I also love it in conjunction with my janky Amoeboid Changeling + Rebel Informer combo!
I've never understood Rebel decks that run fewer than 4 Lins. If she lives, mulligans are meaningless. If she dies, there isn't a single other card that you'd rather draw.
Brainstorm is very good in Rebel decks. I mostly bring this up because that card tends to be extremely overrated in casual decks. Again, there's very little reason to run fewer than 4 copies in these kinds of combo shells. Realistically speaking there aren't better cards to see in your opening hands/draws.
I don't like Crusade at all in this deck. You're not fighting that kind of fight I don't think. Whipcorder also seems very sketchy. This deck is already extremely mana intensive and tappers are notoriously bad in multiplayer. Whose creatures do you tap pre-combat? When? Why? There are no good answers to these kinds of questions.
I don't see a reason to run with 4 Sergeants and 3 Falcons. This isn't an aggro deck, it's a combo/card advantage deck. The Falcon fetches all of your combo pieces, Lin, Vanguard, Mirror Entity, everything. The only thing that Sergeant finds is the Falcon (realistically) so that it can go on to find those cards. I just don't understand the numbers in that sense. You should virtually always run 4 Brainstorms, 4 Falcons and 4 Lins before touching basically anything else. The "it's a 1 drop for Nykthos" argument doesn't outweigh the fact that you'd always rather go turn 2 Falcon or turn 3 Lin than turn 1 Sergeant.
Why so few combo pieces? I know that you have tutors... but still... I dunno, I would be running like 3 of each, a 3-2 split, something other than 1-1. Naturally drawing your combo in some % of your games is very relevant.
I'm not entirely convinced that the manabase wouldn't be stronger if it were mostly basics. Combo decks tend to win games where they cast spells for the first 4 turns of the game in my experience. I get why you might want things like Nykthos and Chancery but at the same time you need what? 4 mana to win the game? Were I playing your deck I would shuffle it up in Cockatrice or whatever using basics and test some goldfishes using those. I sincerely doubt that the non-Miren colorless and ETBT lands are significantly helping you out (but I could be wrong).
I took out Sergeant entirely after I took out Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Whipcorder. I think I was thinking of the combo as sort of second-place to the rest of the deck, instead of realizing that it's actually just better as a combo deck.
Looks good but I'm a bit worried about the land counts. This feels like a 24 mana source deck to me. Brainstorm is good but you can't actually cast it on turn 2 or 3 to smooth your draws. I'm not worried bout having Blue mana for turn 1, it basically doesn't do anything, but I still think that the deck could use 2 more Islands. Maybe cut a Greaves and a Riftwatcher or one of the combo pieces.
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong about the Azorius Guildgates. This deck doesn't really have turn 1 plays and your turn 2 or 3 are probably going to be somewhat free as well. Maybe you should just play the 4 Guildgates and 4 Tranquil Coves or whatever. I maintain that long-term 2-for-1s like Azorious Chancery and colorless lands such as Nykthos are relatively weak when you're trying to cast creatures and tutor others up on turns 2, 3 and 4 but the lack of 1 drops does make the mana fixing of "Guildgates" relatively free. I do think that speed and colored mana are important, that hasn't changed, but given that this isn't a 1 drop deck you may as well play something to do on that turn. It's the addition of TG that really throws a wrench into the equation. If it were just BS, whatever. You could play 8 Islands and never look back. The problem is that TG is very good in this list and you do want to cast earlier rather than later.
So maybe something like -2 cards, +2 lands, roll with:
What do you think about 2 Greaves and 2 Outriders? Greaves felt a little narrow to me so I figured cutting down to 2 would be fine given the plethora of Tutors for Outriders. Do you like the full 4 Greaves given its ability to speed up the search process?
About what I expected. I still think that single copies of the combo pieces is a mistake even though Lin is a powerful recursive tool. At some point the writing is on the wall and it literally boils down to "kill this person or we lose" and eating double Time Walks when that happens is no bueno. Naturally drawing your combo is also very relevant in my experience. Even if it's just something like a 3-2 split I still find that it helps a lot.
I've also tried Shield Dancer in the past, the problem is that 3 may as well be a million mana when you're also trying to tutor things up. Training Grounds (it wasn't around when I played a Rebel deck) clearly helps a lot but the card is almost worthless when its not in play. This is one of those cards that gives you an "AH HA!" moment when you first see it but then when you play with it you realize why no one else bothers to field it.
Greaves is a tough one. Even though this deck has a lot of tappers and even though it's technically a combo piece it's still not great unless everything else is assembled. It's also deceptively weak at enabling fast kills in the sense that you can't give your Task Force Haste and still target it with Condemn. Obviously the Haste helps your tutor critters but it makes the card worse than it might seem at first blush. It's also just useless in multiples. I like 2 but admittedly I don't have all that much testing to back that number up.
I'm inclined to agree with you about the lifegain rebels. I don't expect to face much aggro in multipler and I don't foresee taking the time to find them in lieu of attempting to combo off. I never actually ran those kinds of cards in my Rebel decks but our decks were real bad back then lol. Drawing "2 cards" a turn (i.e. drawstep + Rebel tutor) was good enough to be a top tier deck at the time :3.
I actually really like the Test of Endurance. Not because you need to draw/cast it, but because you can flash it to the table while tutoring a Rebel up after you've gained infinite life to "strongly encourage" a scoop (i.e. make it clear to them that you have inevitability). It may be win-more as all Hell but I have better things to do with my life that sit around and spend 30 minutes winning an unlosable game. In a perfect world people would just scoop (God knows I would) but that's not always how things play out lol.
In some universe there has to be that guy who can't win the game, but still Disenchants your Test of Endurance.
Oh for sure. You're not drawing dead when that happens though. You could even jam a Mistveil Plains in there or something if you were so inclined. Lin already prevents decking so you could just deck everyone and play actual 0 win conditions but that's so boring.
Don't forget the alt wincon of attacking with a dozen 10/10s courtesy of Mirror Entity. It's not like you need to block, and just about any one of your guys can snowball into an army.
Oh I'm aware, my point is simply that you're not really required to run anything like that.
I had to come back and tell you my experiences with this deck. I actually enjoy playing this particular variant, but I feel that I need to add 2 more Test of Endurance. Last game I played with it, I had over 2 million life, but one of my opponents removed it - twice! So we had a game that lasted for 2 hours, and I ended up dying from (of all things) POISON! It was a night to remember.
To be fair the idea is that since this deck has Mistveil Plains and shuffle effects you can normally explain to your opponents that they can't possibly win so they can scoop and give you the win. Dying to poison is extremely unfortunate but adding a bunch of relatively useless cards to the MD to play around those fringe losses seems kinda sketchy to me. I'm not saying that you're wrong to do so, I'm just saying that I personally wouldn't play around poison in my circles.
The deck works like a well oiled machine. It works in the exact same way every game - the only difference is the non-rebel cards you draw.
If you have Training Grounds and a Rebel searcher, the hand is a snap keep.
One of the things you'll love about the deck is that you play the game at instant speed.
The deck was definitely worth it for me to build - especially because the components are pretty cheap. I searched around and got the whole deck for under $20.
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I think the Training Grounds is pretty much essential to the deck, as it makes recruiting rebels relatively cheap. I like the idea of the wishboard - I can see a desert coalition stumbling across a genie to thwart their foes! Dictate of Heliod is also pretty sweet in response to sweepers.
As for the rebels themselves, Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero is clearly the most important. With her you can keep yourself at a healthy life with Children of Korlis. Defiant Vanguard is a very expensive Typhoid Rats but he basically gets the job done. Mirror Entity is one of the win conditions, and the Amoeboid Changeling + Rebel Informer package is mostly just cute.
4 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Ramosian Lieutenant
4 Defiant Falcon
4 Defiant Vanguard
1 Mirror Entity
1 Rebel Informer
1 Amoeboid Changeling
2 Children of Korlis
2 Dictate of Heliod
4 Cunning Wish
3 Arcane Denial
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Coastal Tower
4 Sejirii Steppe
8 Plains
1 Force of Will
1 Honorable Passage
1 Misdirection
1 Intuition
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Dominate
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
For a control deck you have no way to Wrath. I'd suggest Harsh Mercy though I am also fond of Rout and Martial Coup. Also, the nukes like Akroma's Vengeance/Planar Cleasing. You have a far easier way to rebuilding your resources so board wipes should theoretically favour you the most.
I don't know what Amoebold Changeling does.
I don't like Wishboards. If you need X, then you're giving your opponent two outs to stop you. For example, you have no way to destroy Enchanments/Artifacts, not even main. Oblivion Stone seems like quite good.
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A couple more pieces of countermagic might be nice too, since your Rebels can activate at instant speed, so you always have a mana sink if you leave counter mana up.
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Harsh Mercy doesn't seem like it does much for me - everyone gets to keep at least their very best creature. I do like the idea of Rout since I can continue to live life in the fast lane.
You're most likely right about the wishboard as well - I'm essentially tacking on 2U to the cost of what I want to be playing in the first place.
Maybe Cyclonic Rift or OOHHHHH.
Can I search up Nameless Inversion via my rebels? That would be sweeeet.
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I have updated my list as such:
4 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Defiant Falcon
2 Defiant Vanguard
2 Mirror Entity
1 Children of Korlis
1 Rebel Informer
2 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Thermal Glider
1 Nightwind Glider
1 Amoeboid Changeling
1 Changeling Hero
2 Rule of Law
4 Training Grounds
4 Arcane Denial
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Island
9 Plains
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
I think the Rule of Law is pretty much the best tech ever. It shuts down so many strategies I also love it in conjunction with my janky Amoeboid Changeling + Rebel Informer combo!
This iteration makes the deck a little more devotion focused. Thus, when I don't draw a Training Grounds the deck doesn't just fall flat on its ass.
To combo off, one needs Task Force + Outrider en-kor / Lightning Greaves + Condemn / Miren, the Moaning Well.
Alternatively, you can swarm the board with rebels and finish with Mirror Entity.
4 Ramosian Sergeant
3 Defiant Falcon
2 Defiant Vanguard
1 Children of Korlis
2 Aven Riftwatcher
2 Whipcorder
2 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
1 Mirror Entity
1 Outrider en-kor
1 Task Force
3 Crusade
4 Training Grounds
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Bound in Silence
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Azorius Guildgate
2 Island
8 Plains
2 Miren, the Moaning Well
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Brainstorm is very good in Rebel decks. I mostly bring this up because that card tends to be extremely overrated in casual decks. Again, there's very little reason to run fewer than 4 copies in these kinds of combo shells. Realistically speaking there aren't better cards to see in your opening hands/draws.
I don't like Crusade at all in this deck. You're not fighting that kind of fight I don't think. Whipcorder also seems very sketchy. This deck is already extremely mana intensive and tappers are notoriously bad in multiplayer. Whose creatures do you tap pre-combat? When? Why? There are no good answers to these kinds of questions.
I don't see a reason to run with 4 Sergeants and 3 Falcons. This isn't an aggro deck, it's a combo/card advantage deck. The Falcon fetches all of your combo pieces, Lin, Vanguard, Mirror Entity, everything. The only thing that Sergeant finds is the Falcon (realistically) so that it can go on to find those cards. I just don't understand the numbers in that sense. You should virtually always run 4 Brainstorms, 4 Falcons and 4 Lins before touching basically anything else. The "it's a 1 drop for Nykthos" argument doesn't outweigh the fact that you'd always rather go turn 2 Falcon or turn 3 Lin than turn 1 Sergeant.
Why so few combo pieces? I know that you have tutors... but still... I dunno, I would be running like 3 of each, a 3-2 split, something other than 1-1. Naturally drawing your combo in some % of your games is very relevant.
I'm not entirely convinced that the manabase wouldn't be stronger if it were mostly basics. Combo decks tend to win games where they cast spells for the first 4 turns of the game in my experience. I get why you might want things like Nykthos and Chancery but at the same time you need what? 4 mana to win the game? Were I playing your deck I would shuffle it up in Cockatrice or whatever using basics and test some goldfishes using those. I sincerely doubt that the non-Miren colorless and ETBT lands are significantly helping you out (but I could be wrong).
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I took out Sergeant entirely after I took out Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Whipcorder. I think I was thinking of the combo as sort of second-place to the rest of the deck, instead of realizing that it's actually just better as a combo deck.
For searchers I now have the full 4 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero + Defiant Falcon and a couple each of Amrou Scout and Defiant Vanguard.
Mostly I was trying to go hard on Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx with Crusade and the WW drops.
2 Amrou Scout
4 Defiant Falcon
2 Defiant Vanguard
1 Children of Korlis
2 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Mirror Entity
3 Outrider en-kor
3 Task Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Training Grounds
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Bound in Silence
13 Plains
2 Miren, the Moaning Well
I dunno, maybe I'm wrong about the Azorius Guildgates. This deck doesn't really have turn 1 plays and your turn 2 or 3 are probably going to be somewhat free as well. Maybe you should just play the 4 Guildgates and 4 Tranquil Coves or whatever. I maintain that long-term 2-for-1s like Azorious Chancery and colorless lands such as Nykthos are relatively weak when you're trying to cast creatures and tutor others up on turns 2, 3 and 4 but the lack of 1 drops does make the mana fixing of "Guildgates" relatively free. I do think that speed and colored mana are important, that hasn't changed, but given that this isn't a 1 drop deck you may as well play something to do on that turn. It's the addition of TG that really throws a wrench into the equation. If it were just BS, whatever. You could play 8 Islands and never look back. The problem is that TG is very good in this list and you do want to cast earlier rather than later.
So maybe something like -2 cards, +2 lands, roll with:
4x Island
4x Azorius Guildgate
4x Tranquil Cove
2x Miren, the Moaning Well
12 Blue on the draw is about what you need for 1 Blue source for turn 2-3.
18 White on the draw is about what you need for 2 White sources for turn 3.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
What do you think about 2 Greaves and 2 Outriders? Greaves felt a little narrow to me so I figured cutting down to 2 would be fine given the plethora of Tutors for Outriders. Do you like the full 4 Greaves given its ability to speed up the search process?
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I've also tried Shield Dancer in the past, the problem is that 3 may as well be a million mana when you're also trying to tutor things up. Training Grounds (it wasn't around when I played a Rebel deck) clearly helps a lot but the card is almost worthless when its not in play. This is one of those cards that gives you an "AH HA!" moment when you first see it but then when you play with it you realize why no one else bothers to field it.
Greaves is a tough one. Even though this deck has a lot of tappers and even though it's technically a combo piece it's still not great unless everything else is assembled. It's also deceptively weak at enabling fast kills in the sense that you can't give your Task Force Haste and still target it with Condemn. Obviously the Haste helps your tutor critters but it makes the card worse than it might seem at first blush. It's also just useless in multiples. I like 2 but admittedly I don't have all that much testing to back that number up.
I'm inclined to agree with you about the lifegain rebels. I don't expect to face much aggro in multipler and I don't foresee taking the time to find them in lieu of attempting to combo off. I never actually ran those kinds of cards in my Rebel decks but our decks were real bad back then lol. Drawing "2 cards" a turn (i.e. drawstep + Rebel tutor) was good enough to be a top tier deck at the time :3.
I actually really like the Test of Endurance. Not because you need to draw/cast it, but because you can flash it to the table while tutoring a Rebel up after you've gained infinite life to "strongly encourage" a scoop (i.e. make it clear to them that you have inevitability). It may be win-more as all Hell but I have better things to do with my life that sit around and spend 30 minutes winning an unlosable game. In a perfect world people would just scoop (God knows I would) but that's not always how things play out lol.
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2 Amrou Scout
4 Defiant Falcon
2 Defiant Vanguard
1 Mirror Entity
2 Outrider en-kor
3 Task Force
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Training Grounds
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Bound in Silence
1 Test of Endurance
4 Island
1 Sol Ring
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Tranquil Cove
2 Miren, the Moaning Well
I don't really see the need for 4! Bound in Silence, I'd often rather flash in Defiant Vanguard as a F U for targeting me, whereas the pre-combat Bound in Silence seems loose.
Oh for sure. You're not drawing dead when that happens though. You could even jam a Mistveil Plains in there or something if you were so inclined. Lin already prevents decking so you could just deck everyone and play actual 0 win conditions but that's so boring.
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Oh I'm aware, my point is simply that you're not really required to run anything like that.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Perfect name, more-or-less perfect deck :).
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
To be fair the idea is that since this deck has Mistveil Plains and shuffle effects you can normally explain to your opponents that they can't possibly win so they can scoop and give you the win. Dying to poison is extremely unfortunate but adding a bunch of relatively useless cards to the MD to play around those fringe losses seems kinda sketchy to me. I'm not saying that you're wrong to do so, I'm just saying that I personally wouldn't play around poison in my circles.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
4 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Defiant Falcon
4 Defiant Vanguard
2 Mirror Entity
2 Children of Korlis
2 Aven Riftwatcher
2 Rule of Law
4 Training Grounds
4 Arcane Denial
2 Cyclonic Rift
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Island
8 Plains
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
The deck works like a well oiled machine. It works in the exact same way every game - the only difference is the non-rebel cards you draw.
If you have Training Grounds and a Rebel searcher, the hand is a snap keep.
One of the things you'll love about the deck is that you play the game at instant speed.
The deck was definitely worth it for me to build - especially because the components are pretty cheap. I searched around and got the whole deck for under $20.