It needs help, but there it is. Any thoughts? Fracturing Gust and Reverent Silence are far from prevalent in my group, so I'm not concerned with such things.
Jace is nigh worthless since your early Prison effects won't protect him. Once you have a Sphere out he'll live but I mean you've already won the game at that point.
Luminarch Ascension is, in general, the best win condition in this style of deck. It + Sigil of the Empty Throne are where you want to be. I see no real reason to use Aetherling/Jaces. At most I would run 1 Aetherling as an "insurance policy."
Rhystic Study is a solid draw engine to consider. It works well with your other "tax" effects. Your current draw spells are obviously fine but I mean it's up to you.
I would run at least 1 Blind Obedience as another source of lifegain and a potential win condition. I also tend to always run at least 1 Karmic Justice and Story Circle,
The only draw engine a deck like this needs usually is Rhystic Study, which is on theme. I'd go 4 here and be done with my draw cards.
Also, I've found that this is the damn-near perfect deck for Pendrell Mists to make an appearance & it will usually do a lot of work for you, especially when used in conjunction with Rhystic Study. I'm a huge fan of Supreme Verdict, but I actually think I prefer Pendrell Mists here, to say nothing about the fact that it's on theme.
As Prid pointed out, I've found that Karmic Justice can be a beast here; it's the perfect card, as you're defense is enchantments. He's also spot-on with the Story Circle recommendation, as that can really, REALLY hurt decks that can't get rid of enchantments and/or decks that try and damage you via spells and not creatures. Story Circle alone has pretty much won me games before by just making me damn-near invulnerable...
If possible, the ideal card to run as a 2-of is Replenish, but that's a very expensive card(s).
I have constructed a deck with a similar strategy, although mine is RW. I have tested Luminarch Ascension as a win condition, and I believe if you are facing multiple opponents in a tough metagame, it will not be powerful enough. I can't speak to sigil of the empty throne - I never tested it. I ended up using Manabarbs as a win condition instead. My decklist looks like this:
Card advantage is a problem in this deck that I've yet to solve - it could be that I need to splash blue for rhystic study. A couple things on what I see above though:
- I don't like Arcane Denial. If you use that spell, you give your oponent card advantage over yourself, and that's never good. You'd be better off running straight counterspell or if you really want to hose someone down Power Sink.
- The story circle game plan is good if you are dead set on spending nothing on cards, but it has definite drawbacks. You can only choose one color at a time, you have to alocate mana to use it, and the mana alocated must be white. Force Bubble is a 50 cent rare that is absolutely amazing at preventing direct damage. There's no limitations on damage source, there's no need to allocate mana to it, it is a very effective card.
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I don't like Arcane Denial. If you use that spell, you give your oponent card advantage over yourself, and that's never good. You'd be better off running straight counterspell or if you really want to hose someone down Power Sink.
Yeah no. You're thinking about things all wrong. Multiplayer has nothing to do with card advantage or tempo. Both terms are nigh meaningless since it's virtually impossible to generate any significant amount of either. Your oppnents are collectively drawing more cards and generating more mana than you can possibly fathom and your only recourse is to turtle up and focus on yourself. Ignore their gameplans unless they're degenerate and focus on your own. Ignore how many cards they're drawing and focus on your own card quality + quantity. Don't worry about denying resources with say discard. It won't accomplish anything. Spend that time and mana furthering your goals and acquiring new resources for yourself. The reason why Arcane Denial is a good card is because it's easy to cast and it cantrips. The fact that the other player gets to draw 2 cards is irrelevant. The only spells that you care about about countering are things like Fracturing Gust and Exsanguinate that would kill you outright. The other 56 cards in that person's deck are meaningless but those exact cards are crippling. Arcane Denial gives you outs to game-losing spells without putting you too far behind on cards and it's good because you can always cycle it away on a trivial spell if needed. Whereas a Counterspell would literally rot in your hand for the vast majority of the game you can just cycle it away on a Swords to Plowshares or whatever to dig for a win condition/Replenish/more Spheres. You cannot for one second start thinking about the card in terms of straight card advantage because it doesn't reflect its value at all. Every land/creature/burn spell/artifact/enchantment in your opponents' decks have 0 value against you past a certain point. They can draw 2 or 5 or 10 of them and it won't change anything. As long as you can counter the 1 or 2 spells that affect you while still having the option to cycle dead copies away then what you actually have is a very worthwhile effect.
Force Bubble is a 50 cent rare that is absolutely amazing at preventing direct damage. There's no limitations on damage source, there's no need to allocate mana to it, it is a very effective card.
Which implies that people play Lighting Bolt over Exsanguinate. The card obviously works for you and your meta, I'm not suggesting otherwise, I'll just counter with obvious examples like Gray Merchant of Asphodel that completely bypass it. This is why I play Blind Obedience in my Prison decks. It's both a win condition and a way to get out of a "burn range" and it does so in a fashion that also beats mass lifeloss. If you're facing down burn or Earthquakes then the Bubble seems fine but if your meta is anything like mine and has seen the glorious Exsanguinate light then it's not always going to be good enough.
Out of curiosity how has Luminarch Ascension consistently failed you? It dies to the same things that Manabarbs dies to and when you're taking 0 damage with no ability to ever take damage then it's as good anything at closing the game out. I could see why the YOLO turn 2 Ascension might not always work but I mean even then it usually dominates when it happens in our games. I dunno, that's one card that always feels like a "no brainer" to me. The real decisions, in my mind, are how many Karmic Justices to play, how many Blind Obediences, how many Imperial Masks, etc. Like Manabarbs is just as bad when cast early on, it literally has no value at all, whereas Ascension always has backdoor applications with *** and the good old turn 1 E.Tutor turn 2 Ascension usually works too. I dunno, it seems strange to me that you're splashing for such a seemingly weak card as opposed to something like Enchantress's Presence.
Wow, guys! I apologize profusely for not returning to this post. I never figured it would gain any traction and I can see that some good stuff has happened since I was absent due to my own ignorance. I've updated the list based on this post, as the original I created was getting taken to pound town.
Does this look more like an enchantment prison deck or what? I decided I needed some gain life to negate any early bird shenanigans. The ram is good until I'm up and running but it's no longer needed once I'm online so it's also expendable to the mists or verdicts. Thoughts? Hope to hear from you guys that posted early on!
Thoughts on replacing Ajani's Mantra with Condemn or Swords to Plowshares? The early game is rough. It's cheap removal that gets rid of the biggest threat, and let's face it, this kind of deck has the long game against nearly everything. It's either that or the Leyline of Sanctity to beat out mill/burn (burn for those pesky 1v1 casual games). Just throwing around ideas. I have a couple Blind Obedience in my binder so I can replace 2 Ajani's Mantra. I do feel like it's the weakest card in the deck, so what's the plan? I really like the Nyx-Fleece Ram as he blocks well early on to get me to the longer game. Wall of Denial? Porphyry Nodes? Wall of Tears? Fog Bank?
I still don't think you need any Supreme Verdicts. At best, run 2, but you'll stymie most creature decks as soon as a single Pendrell Mists comes down in conjunction with Prison/Propaganda.
I'd lose Nyx-Fleece Ram, as you don't want to have to spend any mana once Mists comes online.
Prid is right about Blind Obedience, especially in this deck. It slows down your opponents and often yields excellent life gains.
I'm in thought about needed a full 4 of Luminarch Ascension, as I would think 3 would likely be enough, but I go back and forth.
Still like to see Karmic Justice in here (it's as close to ideal in this deck as any--someone wants to play Back to Nature? You'll utterly decimate him right back..) and I'm also raising an eyebrow at the lack of Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere.
My version ran Aura of Silence, as I wanted a way to deal my own Pendrell Mists once I went for the win with Luminarch (if needed). Once you get 2+ into play, creatures start to become very taxing.
I think you're right about the Supreme Verdicts. I see that drawing one before I'm set is good, but any time late in the game it's just a dead draw. I also see the point about Nyx-Fleece Ram. I'm actually leaning towards running no verdicts, and running something like this to control the early board:
I found Overburden and think it plays right in my wheelhouse. Does this look good? I plan to buy the deck Friday and I really want it to be near perfect when I do. It looks super durdley so I think it will do well. I just wanted that deck everyone dreads hitting the table once a night. Really wish Innocent Blood was white...
I think you're right about the Supreme Verdicts. I see that drawing one before I'm set is good, but any time late in the game it's just a dead draw.
So it's the best draw in your deck on turn 4 and the worst draw in your deck when you can't possibly lose the game? How is any of that a strike against the card again?
Like I said above, I go back and forth between like 2 vs. none. I can see the pros and cons of each. I've played this deck (well, close to it) several times and it's worked well with no need for a sweeper, but sweepers are often good in general so, your mileage may vary.
Looks solid. I've never run Condemn in my versions before. The way I play these is that I usually run 4 O-Ring/Detention Sphere (you're running a solid 3) and deal with "problems" with this card. I tend to move away from Instant based, defensive cards (as they usually aren't as flexible--the only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Beast Within).
I guess you're running it as you want to handle early game threats, which is reasonable. I still favor Swords to Plowshares in this situation, as exile is often a better answer then back into someone's library, but that's fine. I'd still like Blind Obedience more than either (see comment below)
I found Overburden and think it plays right in my wheelhouse.
That's an interesting find. It definitely seems to fit the theme. Hell, give it a shot and see how that works I suppose. It might be overkill. Once Sphere of Safety is online, in a deck that's nothing but enchantments, you're usually home free from creature based attacks, especially when you consider that you'll likely have a few Propaganda/Prison enchantment type effects
Also, consider what's going to happen when you go for your win-con as well, especially when you consider that you might have a few Pendrell Mists in play.
One card that I seldom mention (because it isn't very good), but MIGHT be worthy in this deck is Copy Enchantment. In a deck like this, it actually might warrant a spot.
How about Leyline of Sanctity? Is targeted damage/lifeloss common/a concern in your meta? If so, that's a consideration.
Solitary Confinement is a card I've been kicking around here as well. I've never seen Rhystic Study do as much work as it does in this deck (& it's usually a rock-star on it's own), so this is card I've been considering...
The #1 thing that I'd still like to see is something like Blind Obedience. It's on theme, can come down round 2, and gives you some lifegain, which is almost always welcome in MP, especially since you might take some hits before you get set up
This will depend greatly on how much card draw you're pulling, but I play both with Blind Obedience & a single Words of Worship. Words can gain life surprisingly quickly with something like Rhystic Study.
Another card I'm quite fond of is Island Sanctuary for early game if someone lands a back-breaking beatstick really early.
I like Swords to Plowshares more as well, but I already have the Condemn and I'm trying to save myself the whole 12 bucks it would cost me for swords. Already found on average it's going to be around 3 dollars a card for nearly the entire deck minus lands and the 10 cards I already have. Recently found out Ghostly Prison is 8 doll hairs each. It's upsetting because it's something that's necessary for the deck but not used outside prison. Just something I thought of if the deck doesn't land.
So far, I've seen so many cards I want to use and I'm trying to make a list from all the cards that I've found or that have been suggested. Even Amazon where I buy my cards was suggesting things when I was pricing it. That's how I found Porphyry Nodes and Overburden. I actually considered a words card, but the one I wanted is off color. That was my plan when I first came up with this idea: to use Words of War.
Now that I'm going to use Pendrell Mists It just seems counter productive to play the Luminarch Ascension. It seems ludicrous but what about Azor's Elocutors as a singleton alternate win? If I go with Words of Worship I get Test of Endurance. Just throwing ideas around that seem like a fun way to close out a game at this point since I think the core of the deck is solid.
Nah, you'll be fine. This deck doesn't need Enlightened Tutor. You should be running the full 4 of Rhystic. You should draw one within a reasonable period of time
I like Swords to Plowshares more as well, but I already have the Condemn and I'm trying to save myself the whole 12 bucks it would cost me for swords. Already found on average it's going to be around 3 dollars a card for nearly the entire deck minus lands and the 10 cards I already have.
Oh yeah, just run Condemn then. It isn't THAT much better!
Recently found out Ghostly Prison is 8 doll hairs each. It's upsetting because it's something that's necessary for the deck but not used outside prison.
I think you might be able to get them a little cheaper if you don't get the near-mint ones, but yeah, crazy how Prison is so expensive.
No, you'll be fine. Note that this was exactly what I was referring to above as well. When you are going for your win, you can torch multiples, if need be, of Pendrell Mists with a single Detention Sphere (I like to go 4 here. Seldom do I draw a card like this and not have anything to bomb with it...also note that exile is good). Further, by that time, you'll likely will be able to afford the upkeep cost anyways. I guess what I'm saying is, you'll be fine.
It seems ludicrous but what about Azor's Elocutors as a singleton alternate win?
Never needed more than Luminarch or Sigil of the Empty Throne. In a deck like this though, I prefer the former. Just before your turn, you load your board with a bunch of angels, then start laying waste to people. No need to mess around
So basically you're saying try it as is. Haha I'm not even 100% the Sphere of Safety is necessary. Between Pendrell Mists, Overburden, Ghostly Prison, and Propaganda, opposing mana will be super taxed. I plan to use it just in case someone can make 20 mana for some reason and the random Vindicates flying around.
You vastly overestimate the value of cards like Propaganda and drastically underestimate the oppression that Sphere of Safety provides. You need to play with the deck some more at this point to get a better feel for what it does and doesn't need.
You should also cut an Overburden for a land or something. If your deck is drawing dead until it hits 3 mana then you need to hit 3 mana on turn 3 every game. You will lose games miserably to mana screw but the "all defense" deck with plenty of draw engines rarely struggles to survive when it floods out a bit.
One thing I'll say is that these decks are always easier to beat than people give credit for insofar as players have heads on their shoulders. It's great for stomping all over newbs but I haven't seen these kinds of decks experience that much success once people are keyed-in on the strategy. The only thing that people have to do to counter this archetype is to play 1 mid-sized creature and turn it sideways at the Prison player early on. Propaganda et al. are not Moats and they don't magically stop 2-4 drops from attacking. If people pressure you early on (aka while the actually can) they can take you low enough to make you a non-factor. You'll either die to random burn/Exsanguinates/etc. or you can be finished off with a hit from a big critter. Coupled with the fact that Back to Nature into big attacks crushes you the deck is far from bullet-proof. If you're thinking that a Propaganda into Pendrell Mists is GG then you're either inexperienced with the deck or your meta is very weak. That line loses miserably to people playing a 2-4 drop and attacking you with it for a couple of turns. Prison decks are always way weaker than people initially expect so don't expect this list to just God crush the table every game. A combination of inconsistent draws, slow startup, enormous aggro generation (aka people hate Prison decks) and slow kill conditions means that these decks are far more vulnerable than they may first appear to be.
To give you an idea UW prison isn't even playable for someone like me. It's too slow and inconsistent to actually survive the aggro that it rightfully generates. The Prison decks that I need to play employ Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl to power out faster + stronger Sphere of Safetys. These kinds of decks are VEEEEEEEEEEEEERY different when they play from "a turn ahead" whereas I find them to be easily beatable if their first "scary" play is hitting on turn 5 or later. Like, if you don't hit 5 land drops in 5 turns and cast a Sphere (which is going to happen way more frequently than you probably imagine) I'd fully expect this deck to outright lose the game. Maybe not the first time you whip it out but by the 4th or 5th I wouldn't expect to be given much mercy. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed with how beatable this specific archetype actually is.
So basically you're saying try it as is. Haha I'm not even 100% the Sphere of Safety is necessary. Between Pendrell Mists, Overburden, Ghostly Prison, and Propaganda, opposing mana will be super taxed. I plan to use it just in case someone can make 20 mana for some reason and the random Vindicates flying around.
I guess I'm confused...
I asked some questions above, as well as strongly recommended Blind Obedience. I love lifegain in these types of decks, as you could take some hits before you get really set up. I guess the card is too expensive??; I never really said play it as is though...
In any case...
With 24 land, you have ~86% chance of drawing 3 or more land by turn 3. That increases to ~88% if you run 25 land. With the way my meta plays and the way I see things, I wouldn't, but you decide if you need to add an additional land or not.
Sphere of Safety is clearly the safest of the bunch. With what this deck is doing, as soon as it gets played, no creature is going to attack you...lol. And it just progressively gets stronger and stronger here. But, I suppose it is possible to work this deck without it. It has the potential to be a royal PITA to play against regardless.
EDIT: I screwed up. Overburden is nontoken creatures only. Looks to work near-perfectly here, particularly early game and especially with Luminarch Ascension and Pendrell Mists. It comes down as early as round 2 and it is most definitely going to slow down anyone trying to play 3cmc+ creatures/multiple creatures (this is a wonderful thing for a prison deck). It looks to work really well here.
T2=Overburden, T3=Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, T4=Ghostly Prison/Propaganda/Pendrell Mists is pretty much a tits play. If someone wants to play creatures, this is going to cripple their development. It will also be a struggle (if not impossible) to attack you early, to say nothing about develop and attack you at the same time. Further, you still potentially have Detention Sphere and Condemn backing you up even further.
Yeah, let 'er rip...
If it were me, I'm thinking I'd go the full 4 of Detention Sphere, remove the Condemn and then add some Copy Enchantments. In this way, I should have a lot of flexibility. I can torch problems with Sphere, I can load up on Prison/Propaganda effects on T4-T6 (if needed), or basically do whatever I want to... I would also look to add some enchantments that give me life.
Saying the deck seems too slow out the gate is exactly why I want some more draw. You both seem to love Blind Obedience but other than the gain life, the rest of it is irrelevant. My meta is not a hasty one. People play black aggro, rock, midrange aggro, creature hate. I just don't value pinging my opponent for one when I need the life gain earlier on to get me to the later game. That's the only reason I wanted a card like Ajani's Mantra to help negotiate those early turns. 3 or 4 life early on can really make a difference in stabilizing or not. I know it's a weak card. I'm sure people aren't happy about running Nyx-Fleece Ram in their Sphinx's Revelation decks but it's an evil they have to accept. How do I justify holding my cards an extra turn to drain for 1 life? Maybe I'm just not seeing the power of the card, but it seems weaker even than just gaining a life a turn or running Sun Droplets. I have trouble wrapping my mind around the power of the card as you guys both have clearly played with it more than me. My only experience with the card is in a Sphinx's Revelation deck and while it was powerful there, I was running cheap removal and several cards a turn so it turned games quickly. So how does one play this card effectively in a deck like this one? Do you guys have a list in mind staying U/W? I don't have any simic or selesnya duals and have no desire to play those combinations. I'm new to prison decks as I usually play midrange or mono black control. I don't want to come off as dismissive to your ideas, so please don't take it as that. I just want a deck that will do decent out the gate and I plan to buy it this weekend to have for our get together next week. Thank you guys for all the input as I obviously need guidance.
You are severely underestimating the lifegain from Blind Obedience. Read the card carefully... you gain life EQUAL TO the lifeloss from pinging EVERY opponent for 1. READ: if you have 4 opponents, each loses a life and you gain 4. If you have 5 opponents, each loses a life and you gain 5. This is SO MUCH better than Sun Droplet, Ajani's Mantra, Nyx-Fleece Ram et al...
You are severely underestimating the lifegain from Blind Obedience. Read the card carefully... you gain life EQUAL TO the lifeloss from pinging EVERY opponent for 1. READ: if you have 4 opponents, each loses a life and you gain 4. If you have 5 opponents, each loses a life and you gain 5. This is SO MUCH better than Sun Droplet, Ajani's Mantra, Nyx-Fleece Ram et al...
THIS times 10....
You say that the life gain is all that it's good for--the rest is irrelevant.
Well, the life gain ALONE is why you should run it (& why I would run it/run it). You can gain X life (where X is the number of opponents) practically every time you cast a spell. I'm guessing it's no less than 4. Repeatable 4 life, from practically every spell you cast, from a 2cmc enchantment, which is on theme, is about as good as it gets.
This can also be a life-saver if you get beat on a few times before your defense is set up
I'm a turd. I didn't read the text for extort. Haha, so now I understand why it's so powerful in multiplayer. So the real question is, what do I cut? It's pretty darn good haha. I feel like the southpark episode spoofing human centipede. "Why won't it read!"
So yeah... I like all the cards I have in here but now I feel like it's too superb to pass up.
I'm a turd. I didn't read the text for extort. Haha, so now I understand why it's so powerful in multiplayer. So the real question is, what do I cut? It's pretty darn good haha. I feel like the southpark episode spoofing human centipede. "Why won't it read!"
So yeah... I like all the cards I have in here but now I feel like it's too superb to pass up.
When in doubt, shave. Run 3 of everything instead of 4 and after a few games you'll have a better feel for what cards you want to see more and which you wouldn't mind seeing a bit less. I literally refuse to play the same deck twice and I'll always make at least one substitution if only to potentially test a card out. I want to draw a Prison/Ganda on turn 3 every game but I don't really want to draw 2-3 of them normally. For that you only need to run about 6-7 (combined) copies of the cards and use some simple mulligan sense. I apply this logic to most of my decks which is why you'll see things like 4x Necrogen Mists and 2-3x Bottomless Pit or 4x Sylvan Primordial and 2-3x Primeval Titan in my decks. You don't need the full 8 redundant copies to have a very consistent deck. 6-7 copies + smart mulligan decisions is "good enough" to get you there in a large % of your games.
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Sphere of Safety
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Detention Sphere
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Aetherling
4 Trade Secrets
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Tidings
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple of Enlightenment
7 Plains
9 Island
It needs help, but there it is. Any thoughts? Fracturing Gust and Reverent Silence are far from prevalent in my group, so I'm not concerned with such things.
Luminarch Ascension is, in general, the best win condition in this style of deck. It + Sigil of the Empty Throne are where you want to be. I see no real reason to use Aetherling/Jaces. At most I would run 1 Aetherling as an "insurance policy."
Rhystic Study is a solid draw engine to consider. It works well with your other "tax" effects. Your current draw spells are obviously fine but I mean it's up to you.
I would run at least 1 Blind Obedience as another source of lifegain and a potential win condition. I also tend to always run at least 1 Karmic Justice and Story Circle,
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Also, I've found that this is the damn-near perfect deck for Pendrell Mists to make an appearance & it will usually do a lot of work for you, especially when used in conjunction with Rhystic Study. I'm a huge fan of Supreme Verdict, but I actually think I prefer Pendrell Mists here, to say nothing about the fact that it's on theme.
As Prid pointed out, I've found that Karmic Justice can be a beast here; it's the perfect card, as you're defense is enchantments. He's also spot-on with the Story Circle recommendation, as that can really, REALLY hurt decks that can't get rid of enchantments and/or decks that try and damage you via spells and not creatures. Story Circle alone has pretty much won me games before by just making me damn-near invulnerable...
If possible, the ideal card to run as a 2-of is Replenish, but that's a very expensive card(s).
And I'd never, ever run Counterspell in MP. At a minimum, run something like Arcane Denial, Dismiss or something.
.
Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
Exactly. My personal favorite is Forbid, but these work as well.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Wrath of God
2x Replenish
1x Pithing Needle
1x Elixir of Immortality
3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Ghostly Prison
1x Force Bubble
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Sphere of Law
3x Manabarbs
2x Sphere of Safety
4x Boros Guildgate
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Mountain
11x Plains
Card advantage is a problem in this deck that I've yet to solve - it could be that I need to splash blue for rhystic study. A couple things on what I see above though:
- I don't like Arcane Denial. If you use that spell, you give your oponent card advantage over yourself, and that's never good. You'd be better off running straight counterspell or if you really want to hose someone down Power Sink.
- The story circle game plan is good if you are dead set on spending nothing on cards, but it has definite drawbacks. You can only choose one color at a time, you have to alocate mana to use it, and the mana alocated must be white. Force Bubble is a 50 cent rare that is absolutely amazing at preventing direct damage. There's no limitations on damage source, there's no need to allocate mana to it, it is a very effective card.
RUG Canadian Threshold RUG
BRG Jund BRG
GRW Marath, Will of the Wild GRW
Yeah no. You're thinking about things all wrong. Multiplayer has nothing to do with card advantage or tempo. Both terms are nigh meaningless since it's virtually impossible to generate any significant amount of either. Your oppnents are collectively drawing more cards and generating more mana than you can possibly fathom and your only recourse is to turtle up and focus on yourself. Ignore their gameplans unless they're degenerate and focus on your own. Ignore how many cards they're drawing and focus on your own card quality + quantity. Don't worry about denying resources with say discard. It won't accomplish anything. Spend that time and mana furthering your goals and acquiring new resources for yourself. The reason why Arcane Denial is a good card is because it's easy to cast and it cantrips. The fact that the other player gets to draw 2 cards is irrelevant. The only spells that you care about about countering are things like Fracturing Gust and Exsanguinate that would kill you outright. The other 56 cards in that person's deck are meaningless but those exact cards are crippling. Arcane Denial gives you outs to game-losing spells without putting you too far behind on cards and it's good because you can always cycle it away on a trivial spell if needed. Whereas a Counterspell would literally rot in your hand for the vast majority of the game you can just cycle it away on a Swords to Plowshares or whatever to dig for a win condition/Replenish/more Spheres. You cannot for one second start thinking about the card in terms of straight card advantage because it doesn't reflect its value at all. Every land/creature/burn spell/artifact/enchantment in your opponents' decks have 0 value against you past a certain point. They can draw 2 or 5 or 10 of them and it won't change anything. As long as you can counter the 1 or 2 spells that affect you while still having the option to cycle dead copies away then what you actually have is a very worthwhile effect.
Which implies that people play Lighting Bolt over Exsanguinate. The card obviously works for you and your meta, I'm not suggesting otherwise, I'll just counter with obvious examples like Gray Merchant of Asphodel that completely bypass it. This is why I play Blind Obedience in my Prison decks. It's both a win condition and a way to get out of a "burn range" and it does so in a fashion that also beats mass lifeloss. If you're facing down burn or Earthquakes then the Bubble seems fine but if your meta is anything like mine and has seen the glorious Exsanguinate light then it's not always going to be good enough.
Out of curiosity how has Luminarch Ascension consistently failed you? It dies to the same things that Manabarbs dies to and when you're taking 0 damage with no ability to ever take damage then it's as good anything at closing the game out. I could see why the YOLO turn 2 Ascension might not always work but I mean even then it usually dominates when it happens in our games. I dunno, that's one card that always feels like a "no brainer" to me. The real decisions, in my mind, are how many Karmic Justices to play, how many Blind Obediences, how many Imperial Masks, etc. Like Manabarbs is just as bad when cast early on, it literally has no value at all, whereas Ascension always has backdoor applications with *** and the good old turn 1 E.Tutor turn 2 Ascension usually works too. I dunno, it seems strange to me that you're splashing for such a seemingly weak card as opposed to something like Enchantress's Presence.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Sphere of Safety
4 Rhystic Study
4 Luminarch Ascension
4 Pendrell Mists
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Ajani's Mantra
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Azorius Guildgate
4 Glacial Fortress
8 Island
8 Plains
Does this look more like an enchantment prison deck or what? I decided I needed some gain life to negate any early bird shenanigans. The ram is good until I'm up and running but it's no longer needed once I'm online so it's also expendable to the mists or verdicts. Thoughts? Hope to hear from you guys that posted early on!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'd lose Nyx-Fleece Ram, as you don't want to have to spend any mana once Mists comes online.
Prid is right about Blind Obedience, especially in this deck. It slows down your opponents and often yields excellent life gains.
I'm in thought about needed a full 4 of Luminarch Ascension, as I would think 3 would likely be enough, but I go back and forth.
Still like to see Karmic Justice in here (it's as close to ideal in this deck as any--someone wants to play Back to Nature? You'll utterly decimate him right back..) and I'm also raising an eyebrow at the lack of Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere.
My version ran Aura of Silence, as I wanted a way to deal my own Pendrell Mists once I went for the win with Luminarch (if needed). Once you get 2+ into play, creatures start to become very taxing.
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Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
3 Detention Sphere
4 Propaganda
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Sphere of Safety
4 Rhystic Study
4 Pendrell Mists
3 Luminarch Ascension
2 Karmic Justice
4 Overburden
24 land
I found Overburden and think it plays right in my wheelhouse. Does this look good? I plan to buy the deck Friday and I really want it to be near perfect when I do. It looks super durdley so I think it will do well. I just wanted that deck everyone dreads hitting the table once a night. Really wish Innocent Blood was white...
So it's the best draw in your deck on turn 4 and the worst draw in your deck when you can't possibly lose the game? How is any of that a strike against the card again?
It's worse than it looks and it doesn't look especially good. Wall of Denial, Nyx-Fleece Ram, etc. all do more for the deck early on.
So am I!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Like I said above, I go back and forth between like 2 vs. none. I can see the pros and cons of each. I've played this deck (well, close to it) several times and it's worked well with no need for a sweeper, but sweepers are often good in general so, your mileage may vary.
Looks solid. I've never run Condemn in my versions before. The way I play these is that I usually run 4 O-Ring/Detention Sphere (you're running a solid 3) and deal with "problems" with this card. I tend to move away from Instant based, defensive cards (as they usually aren't as flexible--the only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Beast Within).
I guess you're running it as you want to handle early game threats, which is reasonable. I still favor Swords to Plowshares in this situation, as exile is often a better answer then back into someone's library, but that's fine. I'd still like Blind Obedience more than either (see comment below)
That's an interesting find. It definitely seems to fit the theme. Hell, give it a shot and see how that works I suppose. It might be overkill. Once Sphere of Safety is online, in a deck that's nothing but enchantments, you're usually home free from creature based attacks, especially when you consider that you'll likely have a few Propaganda/Prison enchantment type effects
Also, consider what's going to happen when you go for your win-con as well, especially when you consider that you might have a few Pendrell Mists in play.
One card that I seldom mention (because it isn't very good), but MIGHT be worthy in this deck is Copy Enchantment. In a deck like this, it actually might warrant a spot.
How about Leyline of Sanctity? Is targeted damage/lifeloss common/a concern in your meta? If so, that's a consideration.
Solitary Confinement is a card I've been kicking around here as well. I've never seen Rhystic Study do as much work as it does in this deck (& it's usually a rock-star on it's own), so this is card I've been considering...
The #1 thing that I'd still like to see is something like Blind Obedience. It's on theme, can come down round 2, and gives you some lifegain, which is almost always welcome in MP, especially since you might take some hits before you get set up
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Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
Another card I'm quite fond of is Island Sanctuary for early game if someone lands a back-breaking beatstick really early.
I like Swords to Plowshares more as well, but I already have the Condemn and I'm trying to save myself the whole 12 bucks it would cost me for swords. Already found on average it's going to be around 3 dollars a card for nearly the entire deck minus lands and the 10 cards I already have. Recently found out Ghostly Prison is 8 doll hairs each. It's upsetting because it's something that's necessary for the deck but not used outside prison. Just something I thought of if the deck doesn't land.
So far, I've seen so many cards I want to use and I'm trying to make a list from all the cards that I've found or that have been suggested. Even Amazon where I buy my cards was suggesting things when I was pricing it. That's how I found Porphyry Nodes and Overburden. I actually considered a words card, but the one I wanted is off color. That was my plan when I first came up with this idea: to use Words of War.
Now that I'm going to use Pendrell Mists It just seems counter productive to play the Luminarch Ascension. It seems ludicrous but what about Azor's Elocutors as a singleton alternate win? If I go with Words of Worship I get Test of Endurance. Just throwing ideas around that seem like a fun way to close out a game at this point since I think the core of the deck is solid.
Nah, you'll be fine. This deck doesn't need Enlightened Tutor. You should be running the full 4 of Rhystic. You should draw one within a reasonable period of time
Oh yeah, just run Condemn then. It isn't THAT much better!
I think you might be able to get them a little cheaper if you don't get the near-mint ones, but yeah, crazy how Prison is so expensive.
No, you'll be fine. Note that this was exactly what I was referring to above as well. When you are going for your win, you can torch multiples, if need be, of Pendrell Mists with a single Detention Sphere (I like to go 4 here. Seldom do I draw a card like this and not have anything to bomb with it...also note that exile is good). Further, by that time, you'll likely will be able to afford the upkeep cost anyways. I guess what I'm saying is, you'll be fine.
Never needed more than Luminarch or Sigil of the Empty Throne. In a deck like this though, I prefer the former. Just before your turn, you load your board with a bunch of angels, then start laying waste to people. No need to mess around
No, not here. See comment above.
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Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
You should also cut an Overburden for a land or something. If your deck is drawing dead until it hits 3 mana then you need to hit 3 mana on turn 3 every game. You will lose games miserably to mana screw but the "all defense" deck with plenty of draw engines rarely struggles to survive when it floods out a bit.
One thing I'll say is that these decks are always easier to beat than people give credit for insofar as players have heads on their shoulders. It's great for stomping all over newbs but I haven't seen these kinds of decks experience that much success once people are keyed-in on the strategy. The only thing that people have to do to counter this archetype is to play 1 mid-sized creature and turn it sideways at the Prison player early on. Propaganda et al. are not Moats and they don't magically stop 2-4 drops from attacking. If people pressure you early on (aka while the actually can) they can take you low enough to make you a non-factor. You'll either die to random burn/Exsanguinates/etc. or you can be finished off with a hit from a big critter. Coupled with the fact that Back to Nature into big attacks crushes you the deck is far from bullet-proof. If you're thinking that a Propaganda into Pendrell Mists is GG then you're either inexperienced with the deck or your meta is very weak. That line loses miserably to people playing a 2-4 drop and attacking you with it for a couple of turns. Prison decks are always way weaker than people initially expect so don't expect this list to just God crush the table every game. A combination of inconsistent draws, slow startup, enormous aggro generation (aka people hate Prison decks) and slow kill conditions means that these decks are far more vulnerable than they may first appear to be.
To give you an idea UW prison isn't even playable for someone like me. It's too slow and inconsistent to actually survive the aggro that it rightfully generates. The Prison decks that I need to play employ Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl to power out faster + stronger Sphere of Safetys. These kinds of decks are VEEEEEEEEEEEEERY different when they play from "a turn ahead" whereas I find them to be easily beatable if their first "scary" play is hitting on turn 5 or later. Like, if you don't hit 5 land drops in 5 turns and cast a Sphere (which is going to happen way more frequently than you probably imagine) I'd fully expect this deck to outright lose the game. Maybe not the first time you whip it out but by the 4th or 5th I wouldn't expect to be given much mercy. I think you'll be unpleasantly disappointed with how beatable this specific archetype actually is.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I guess I'm confused...
I asked some questions above, as well as strongly recommended Blind Obedience. I love lifegain in these types of decks, as you could take some hits before you get really set up. I guess the card is too expensive??; I never really said play it as is though...
In any case...
With 24 land, you have ~86% chance of drawing 3 or more land by turn 3. That increases to ~88% if you run 25 land. With the way my meta plays and the way I see things, I wouldn't, but you decide if you need to add an additional land or not.
Sphere of Safety is clearly the safest of the bunch. With what this deck is doing, as soon as it gets played, no creature is going to attack you...lol. And it just progressively gets stronger and stronger here. But, I suppose it is possible to work this deck without it. It has the potential to be a royal PITA to play against regardless.
EDIT: I screwed up. Overburden is nontoken creatures only. Looks to work near-perfectly here, particularly early game and especially with Luminarch Ascension and Pendrell Mists. It comes down as early as round 2 and it is most definitely going to slow down anyone trying to play 3cmc+ creatures/multiple creatures (this is a wonderful thing for a prison deck). It looks to work really well here.
T2=Overburden, T3=Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, T4=Ghostly Prison/Propaganda/Pendrell Mists is pretty much a tits play. If someone wants to play creatures, this is going to cripple their development. It will also be a struggle (if not impossible) to attack you early, to say nothing about develop and attack you at the same time. Further, you still potentially have Detention Sphere and Condemn backing you up even further.
Yeah, let 'er rip...
If it were me, I'm thinking I'd go the full 4 of Detention Sphere, remove the Condemn and then add some Copy Enchantments. In this way, I should have a lot of flexibility. I can torch problems with Sphere, I can load up on Prison/Propaganda effects on T4-T6 (if needed), or basically do whatever I want to... I would also look to add some enchantments that give me life.
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Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
THIS times 10....
You say that the life gain is all that it's good for--the rest is irrelevant.
Well, the life gain ALONE is why you should run it (& why I would run it/run it). You can gain X life (where X is the number of opponents) practically every time you cast a spell. I'm guessing it's no less than 4. Repeatable 4 life, from practically every spell you cast, from a 2cmc enchantment, which is on theme, is about as good as it gets.
This can also be a life-saver if you get beat on a few times before your defense is set up
Further, it's also an alt win-con.
Extort is NASTY in MP.
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Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
So yeah... I like all the cards I have in here but now I feel like it's too superb to pass up.
When in doubt, shave. Run 3 of everything instead of 4 and after a few games you'll have a better feel for what cards you want to see more and which you wouldn't mind seeing a bit less. I literally refuse to play the same deck twice and I'll always make at least one substitution if only to potentially test a card out. I want to draw a Prison/Ganda on turn 3 every game but I don't really want to draw 2-3 of them normally. For that you only need to run about 6-7 (combined) copies of the cards and use some simple mulligan sense. I apply this logic to most of my decks which is why you'll see things like 4x Necrogen Mists and 2-3x Bottomless Pit or 4x Sylvan Primordial and 2-3x Primeval Titan in my decks. You don't need the full 8 redundant copies to have a very consistent deck. 6-7 copies + smart mulligan decisions is "good enough" to get you there in a large % of your games.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold