Probably, it's just not a card that I've ever fooled around with. My biggest issue with the card is that Primal Surge just does the job better in my mind. Obviously the advantage of the Wave is that you can fire on mini-waves as the game progresses. I fully appreciate the value in that. That being said I'm rather just jam a Surge and Concordant Crossroads in my all-permanent deck and call it a day. I dunno, maybe that's just me being too close-minded, I've just never seen a good Genesis Wave wave that's impressed me. Green just plain has better "fat" in my mind.
What do you think of cards like Sedge Scorpion? I feel they would be good throughout the game to deter attackers.
Maybe Tich IS CZ! Or at least I hope CZ asked permission to use Tich's work so liberally. Didn't read the end, but I certainly hope some credit can be given.
What do you think of cards like Sedge Scorpion? I feel they would be good throughout the game to deter attackers.
Maybe Tich IS CZ! Or at least I hope CZ asked permission to use Tich's work so liberally. Didn't read the end, but I certainly hope some credit can be given.
1 mana 1/1 "traders" (see Loyal Sentry, Typhoid Rats) are playable but they're never going to blow you away. The reality of the matter is that any warm body is probably good enough on turn 1 or 2 and the people playing Deathrite Shaman, Figure of Destiny, Thrull Parasite and Scavenging Ooze are getting the better end of the bargain. They deter attacks, sure, but "not losing" isn't the same thing as "winning" and there are plenty of cards that do both. Well, ok, not plenty but there's some :P. What it boils down to is that the best decks will never have them because if your best play is a 1/1 blocker then anyone who just goes Simic Signet into Forgotten Ancient or whatever is way ahead because they progressed their boards in meaningful ways wheres you wasted cards on blockers. Even though you can block that Taurean Mauler or whatever and threaten to trade with it the reality of the matter is that the guy ripping into more "good stuff" has an advantage over the person ripping into blockers.
Tich was jackass and I don't feel bad about ripping off his material. He can sue me to take this thread down if he wants but a joker like him doesn't deserve the credit for this kind of work.
What do you think of cards like Sedge Scorpion? I feel they would be good throughout the game to deter attackers.
Maybe Tich IS CZ! Or at least I hope CZ asked permission to use Tich's work so liberally. Didn't read the end, but I certainly hope some credit can be given.
Tich was jackass and I don't feel bad about ripping off his material. He can sue me to take this thread down if he wants but a joker like him doesn't deserve the credit for this kind of work.
I think you should go back to Tich; I had just gotten used to CZ. Are you every going to bother to do a multiplayer review of Journey into Nyx?
What do you think of cards like Sedge Scorpion? I feel they would be good throughout the game to deter attackers.
Maybe Tich IS CZ! Or at least I hope CZ asked permission to use Tich's work so liberally. Didn't read the end, but I certainly hope some credit can be given.
Tich was jackass and I don't feel bad about ripping off his material. He can sue me to take this thread down if he wants but a joker like him doesn't deserve the credit for this kind of work.
I think you should go back to Tich; I had just gotten used to CZ. Are you every going to bother to do a multiplayer review of Journey into Nyx?
In my defense I would have kept Cz but the new Curse site won't let me have a 2 character name. I haven't used the moniker "Tich" in a long time. It's short for Tichondrius (a much cooler name) who was a hero in Warcraft III. That should give you an idea of when I last used it. Then again maybe I should just use it because that's how a lot of people know me.
I thought about reviewing JOU I just don't know how much those reviews actually accomplish. Nor these guides for that matter.
I thought about reviewing JOU I just don't know how much those reviews actually accomplish. Nor these guides for that matter.
It depends on what you hope to accomplish. I find your reviews and guides to be be thought-provoking, comment starters, and useful for research. However, I am not the one doing the work! If they don't "pay," I certainly wouldn't push you to create them. Consider the question retracted.
I will say this. Unasked for commentary, so I hope I do not offend.
Most of your general attitudes about multiplayer are where your question derives from. You are a proponent of a small amount of cards being the entire playing pool. Go back through your posts and look at the trend. Discussion about card/deck ensues. You point out the optimum build or which cards are, generally, best. Many times you say something along the lines of X Goodstuffs is better than this so play that. Or, X does this better so this isn't fruitful. [Obvious exaggeration. However, I suspect with your mind, you are self-reflective enough to realize this is in the realm of accuracy.] You have even fairly defended it. Is that not why we are here? Why would I offer anything, but the best? You ask, rhetorically. Fair enough.
However, I posit that most players do not have a situation like yours. Based upon lurking for years here, and previously on the mothership's terrible forums, I have found your insight excellent, your ability to adapt to shifting metagames impeccable, and your humbleness in admitting when you are wrong about a card or deck admirable. You are largely a benign influence on discussion and add worthwhile information and perspective.
However, you have a blind spot; you judge multiplayer by your unique situation. Based upon your representation, your games are large and revolve around haymakers. This makes your games sound like (please emphasize the previous two words) largely a crap-shoot with combo/control decks duking it out with mid-rangy goodstuff/combo. [Note: I am aware that all groups gravitate towards this, to greater and lesser degrees, as the tripod of aggro-control-combo is broken. Instead of Conspiracy R & D should focus on ways to make more axis of attack profitable and attractive in multiplayer. Luckily, my experience differs from yours. I have had the luxury of being a part of 10 different metagmes over the years and everyone of those groups have had various individuals willing to fall on their sword to shake up the environment.]
Honestly, if I played with you I would probably attempt to create decks to drive you out of your rut. I know that isn't nice, and certainly doesn't support your philosophy of focusing upon winning, but it might be the best thing to happen to you as you would consider other, even sub-optimal, options.
Anyways there isn't much that I would even add. My basic deckbuilding philosophy is to buy a ton of good cards and then just play whatever I feel like whenever I feel like. Grave Pact + creatures, whether they recur or not, is just a stupidly powerful interaction. I rarely-if-ever bother fielding things like Reassembling Skeleton because I don't find a particular need to have them. They're very bad 1/1 do-nothings when you don't have a Pact out and when you do have a Pact out everything is good so that's not a strong argument to keep them around either. If your deck has Skullclamp, ok, sure, then it makes sense. Otherwise? I don't bother myself. I would just rather have Wight of Precinct Six/Nantuko Shade in my deck and have a card that will have value at many stages of the game.
Anyways, most of my GP decks look something along the lines of:
Another small point: I basically don't use Bonehoard any more. Nighthowler has wildly exceeded my expectations of the card. It's cheap, a creature (relevant for cards such as Oversold Cemetery), recurrable and it adds devotion. For all these reasons it's vastly exceeds Bonehoard's power-level in my experience. I think that it's a fantastic card and I'm thrilled to play with it in just about anything.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of your commentary and your deck is spot on. Please don't mistake me to be attacking your credentials of being largely correct about good card choices or how to effectively affect a table. In fact, please don't think I am attacking you in any way.
Does it every get boring, though? I would assume that you would seldom play a 3+ color deck. Creating an unwieldy mana-base when you can win with a streamlined mono-color deck cuts down win-percentage.
What this long and, again I apologize, unasked for commentary amounts to is that your ennui might derive from the fact that you externalize your metagame to be the metagames of everyone else. This leads you to only consider a, relatively, small card pool and deck shells to be worthwhile, and, because you promote stagnation of your own metagame by not attempting to shift it (as what you are doing works), this will not change. This will circumscribe what you have to say about the vast majority of cards and multiplayer topics.
What sucks is this: you are not wrong, you need not change, you owe nothing to no one, and you will continue to win, but your wisdom will become repetitious and your observations will become boring to you as, succinctly ("Finally!"), most comments boil down to "This is not as good as this 99% of the time" better known as "play mono-black."
P.S. This ramble got away from me. I love what you do. Your comment, though, touched upon something that I have thought about your posts a long time: I think it is unfortunate that so many enjoyable cards won't be played by you because they are not the best.
Good read. Your analysis was spot on and nothing that you said struck me as being "out of line." What I will say is that I have taken more steps to avoid stagnation than you seem to imply. 90% or more of the Magic that I play is Cube. I build and upgrade multiplayer Cubes and those comprise the vast majority of our games. This completely removes card availability from the equation and the "haymaker" nature of my Cubes also removes a lot of the advantage gained with skill. For better or for worse I'm losing more games than I ever have but I'm enjoying myself infinitely more. My days of oppressing my friends/brothers has long since ended and by no means do people look at me and sigh knowing that I'm "just going to win again like I always do." Cubing has revolutionized the way that I approach and view multiplayer Magic and so the vast majority of my testing and conclusions are drawn from Cube experiences. The reality of the matter is that my Grave Pact decks are rarely-if-ever optimally built masterpieces filled with 4-ofs. I just force mono-Black every single time (yes, for 12 years and counting) and so what I end up playing with a glorified EDH deck. I can still draw conclusions from the various archetypes however and so I don't feel too bad if I do a bit of extrapolation. Now, you asked me if it gets boring. Not for me no. I don't know who wrote my programming but they either did a really good or a really bad job because I don't get sick of things that I truly love. If you think that only pertains to Magic let's just say that you've never seen my Music collection. I've listened to certain Dragon Force songs over 2500 times since highschool and I still listen to them on a semi-regular basis. When I go out to eat I can get a burger, fries and Coke anywhere anytime 7 days a week 365 days a year for all I care.
You asked about multicolor decks. You're right; I'm 1 a one and done kind of guy. The only color pairing that I truly enjoy is RG because Kessig Wolf Run is just not a real card. Otherwise I greatly prefer mono-colored decks and let's just say that Nykthos + Gods + Devotion hasn't exactly helped on that front. As if I didn't need more of a reason to sleeve up 26 Swamps Wizards had to go and give me Gray Merchant and Erebos and all of that jazz. Anyways, there's nothing logical or rational about my preference to mono-colored decks. Well, it's somewhat logical in the sense that I don't have money to shell out for lands. What I can afford is 26 Mountains, some Taurean Maulers and some Mass Mutinys or whatever. I always consider the worth of my investment when I purchase magic cards which is why I tend to favor flexible, powerful enablers such as Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I buy 4 and play them in all of my decks because I am perfectly content to build my decks the day before I play them (or even right before the gang gets together). Anyways, what this means is that a long time ago I decided that the best use of money would be to grab flexible playables in every color that could fit in any number of decks. As a result my mana bases suck and I can't just play 3-4 color decks willy-nilly but I'll always come prepared with something packed with powerful haymakers.
With respect to mono-Black being the "top 1%" I have no real way of knowing how strong the color actually is. I would be playing mono-Black even if it was the weakest color combination to field in MP. I can't explain why it matters to me that I play mono-Black decks but it just does. There's no logic or rationale behind it. So yes, I sing its praises on the rooftops and I know the ins-and-outs of the color but I don't know for a fact that it's the color to be if you want to win. Frankly I think BG is a much more powerful color combination on average and if I truly wanted to maximize my win% then I'd focus on that combo more than I currently do. The Graveyard is a horrendously overpowered zone after all.
About my meta revolving around haymakers, I'm not sure if that's the best way to describe it. What I try to preach to players is that they typically need legitimate ways of ending games and that's much easier said than done in a multiplayer setting. Early on in my MP days we used to have games that would drag on for hours because people played with bad decks that had no real endgame which was fine at the time but eventually I couldn't help but think "there has to be better way to go about this." Since we Cube the vast majority of the time I can "force" people to play with cards like Cyclonic Rift, Phthisis, Hex and Mizzium Mortars which just so happen to end games (or take out a player at the very least) more often than not. By moving away from actual Wraths which only prolong the game and more towards "Plague Winds" and battlecruisers (see Sepulchral Primordial) games actually end in reasonable timeframes.
As much as you'd like to "drive me out of my rut" I can guarantee you that you'd fail. I don't play mono-Black because I think that it's optimal nor would I be turned-off if you started sending a little hate my way. I've always been a big believer in sideboards and you can bet your boots that I'd have my Big Black Binder of Black cards sitting near me and I wouldn't be shy about hating out your hate. A bit of back-and-forth is healthy in my experience as it keeps everyone honest. Otherwise it's far too easy to get away with murder.
As far "I win" combo is concerned, we don't employ it. There's no formal ban on it or anything but more of a general understanding. Every now and then something crops up in EDH but it's not something ridiculously OP that uses a general or whatever. More often than not it's something unintentional that just so happens to crop up. Anyways, this means that people are free to play Control, Ramp, Midrange, etc. without having to fear immediate loss on the 5-6th turn. People are welcome to play aggro if they so choose but let's just say that aggro died a long time ago... right around the time when I acquired my Damnations actually. Turn 2 mana rock into turn 3 Wrath just isn't beatable if your deck has a ton of 1-3 drops in it. I think that we have a very healthy meta as a result. Not too fast, not too slow, and not so competitive that everyone isn't winning games.
The next comment that I want to address concerns my games being crap shoots. That's by design. I am PROUD of the fact that anyone can win. The problem that we originally faced backed when we played Constructed/first started Cubing was that I won far too often. When I first built a Cube it was a solid foundation but it was too weak to negate the advantage of my playskill. I could extract more value from my resources and my win% was too high as a result. When you play Battlecruiser Magic anyone at any level can win which is how I personally like it. I think that having one player win far more than the others is toxic for a metagame and I refuse to be one of those people who intentionally plays poorly/plays weak decks/plays joke decks/kamikazes just to even things out. Not because I'm a psycho but because I don't believe for a second that the only solution involves gifting wins and humoring people. When I lose I lose knowing that I played my best with the best deck that I could possibly draft. I cannot for one second pin my loss on anything resembling a "hidden power-level." Building on that, when people beat me they beat me fair and square. People who're new to the game, don't own any cards and who barely understand the rules can walk away with their heads held high. That's something that I've strived to achieve for the better part of 5 years and I'm thrilled to find myself in said sphere. I'm not saying that I'm right and I could totally understand why people would want the best players to experience the most success. That's a perfectly reasonable argument. I personally never want to feel bad for winning but I'm not about to lose on purpose either and so this is the only solution that I've found for someone in my situation. Right or wrong it makes me happy and it makes everyone else happy as well and I don't intend to change anything. It's important to me that my losses are genuine because I am just not the kind of person who can do something poorly. I'm going to try my hardest and give it my all if I actually care about it.
Finally, I want to touch on your statement with regards the overall multiplayer card pool being small. I disagree with it in general because I don't believe for a second that the 4+ CMC cardpool is limited in any way shape or form. There's countless options at those CMCs and I personally believe that I do a good job at highlighting them and promoting them in my guides/posts. What does bother me is how few strong playables are located in the lower CMCs, especially on the creature front. Take Red for example. My Red curve tends to be Figure of Destiny into Kargan Dragonlord into Boros Reckoner/Taurean Mauler. Budget? **** no. Effective? Post me a better curve if you can. I'm not saying that you can only run those cards or anything but it drives me crazy how much weaker the alternatives are. Every time I play a card that isn't Kargan Dragonlord at 2 CMC in Red I sit there thinking about how I wish it were a Kargan Dragonlord. When I draw that 2 drop on turn 8 I can't help but think "why the Hell am I not playing Kargan Dragonlord?" I know that I'm obsessive and anal and whatever but it's just frustrating to have such a small quantity of solid playables none of which are budget. I would LOVE to have every Black/Green deck start with 4x Deathrite Shaman and 4x Scavenging Ooze but that's like $70.00 or something insane. Still, I mean, do you want to be playing the Green deck that doesn't have those cards against decks that do? Not really no. So yeah, I get that I'm always doom and gloom about the low-end of the curve because there's just so few creatures that I actively want to run at those CMCs. On a very fundamental level it bothers me that I can't just tell everyone to purchase 4x Scavenging Ooze and 4x Stoneforge Mystic and to play them in 100% of their Green/White decks. I would. My brain is telling me that anything else would be foolish. So yeah, in that sense I completely agree that I have a very narrow mindset when it comes to cheap creatures.
I thought about reviewing JOU I just don't know how much those reviews actually accomplish. Nor these guides for that matter.
Can't talk about other people, but I really enjoy your reviews (I'm constantly refreshing your blog hoping it shows up :P). I usually have a decent idea of what works and what doesn't but you usually explain the why or why not. This in turn gives insight towards other cards which is just great for me.
Having said that, YOU are the one doing the work, I'm just reaping the benefits. So what you have to ask yourself is do you get anything out of these guides?
Oh and while we are talking about you doing all the work, you should totally finish your cube building guide. This last post of yours was great insight on card choices in the cube. With haymakers leveling the playing field and speeding up the game. I was leaning towards that direction, but couldn't justify it completely and now I can. Thanks!
Under your Turbo Fog Control you list a Crystal Chime which doesn't seem to link to any card. I don't know if it is the site or you mispelt a card.
Your ramp decks are either mutli-coloured or tron/post. Possibly include just a regular mono-green, non-Lurking Predators-based deck? I guess creatures that go off of Forests or they care about how much GGG is in a card's CMC.
I've been working on a monogreen Commander deck and this was incredibly helpful.
Yes, it is a card that has always been juuuust beyond the cusp of playability in constructed formats. I think in multiplayer though, depending on the specific format, it seems far easier to pull off. 5-way games, it's a dream.
I'm planning on trying it out as a new orthogonalwin con in my main multiplayer green deck.
It only got back on my radar recently because it also happens to be a Reserved List card and has started rising. I didn't want to find them out of reach so I went ahead and finished my playset.
I'm not seeing why it's so good. Why is a 1-mana cheaper Dramatic Entrance suddenly a big deal? I've never seen anyone recommend it before.
First of all 1 mana is more than enough to make or break a card competitive. Compare Painful Truths to Concentrate or Utopia Sprawl to Rampant Growth. If a spell is determined to cost N and you get to play it for N-1 then you're ostensibly cheating the system. This is especially true in Green of all colors since the probability that you ramp within the first 3 turns of the game is exceptionally high. When you start treating it as a 3 drop as opposed to a 4 drop the card becomes that much more powerful. Beyond that it's merely a matter of fielding a critical mass of spells that matter. Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, Avenger of Zendikar, Green has no shortage of powerful minions to cheat out. While some are suggesting Progenitus that seems a bit short-sighted to me because are you going to plan on drawing them? How many are you playing? How are you casting them normally? Natural Order for a singleton Proggy makes sense but less so in this instance. I could somewhat understand Worldspine Wurm in a Sylvan Primordial deck but even then I'd want something like Sneak Attack as backup. Still, what's wrong with a turn 3 Sylvan Primordial off of a Wild Growth? It's not as though Green is flush with powerful, budget-minded 4 drops and while the Lure isn't free it's still somewhat affordable.
I'm not seeing why it's so good. Why is a 1-mana cheaper Dramatic Entrance suddenly a big deal? I've never seen anyone recommend it before.
First of all 1 mana is more than enough to make or break a card competitive. Compare Painful Truths to Concentrate or Utopia Sprawl to Rampant Growth. If a spell is determined to cost N and you get to play it for N-1 then you're ostensibly cheating the system. This is especially true in Green of all colors since the probability that you ramp within the first 3 turns of the game is exceptionally high. When you start treating it as a 3 drop as opposed to a 4 drop the card becomes that much more powerful. Beyond that it's merely a matter of fielding a critical mass of spells that matter. Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, Avenger of Zendikar, Green has no shortage of powerful minions to cheat out. While some are suggesting Progenitus that seems a bit short-sighted to me because are you going to plan on drawing them? How many are you playing? How are you casting them normally? Natural Order for a singleton Proggy makes sense but less so in this instance. I could somewhat understand Worldspine Wurm in a Sylvan Primordial deck but even then I'd want something like Sneak Attack as backup. Still, what's wrong with a turn 3 Sylvan Primordial off of a Wild Growth? It's not as though Green is flush with powerful, budget-minded 4 drops and while the Lure isn't free it's still somewhat affordable.
I agree with you on almost all of this post (Aside from the questionable value of 1-for-2ing yourself to cheat out an Avenger of Zendikar with a whopping 3 plant tokens to back it up) but still don't see why you wouldn't just want to jam a Thran Dynamo, Frontier Siege, or something similar on turn 3 if your deck is chock full of fatties. You aren't costing yourself a whole card just to get a creature out a half-turn sooner and it provides great value until someone else burns a card to get rid of it.
I agree with you on almost all of this post (Aside from the questionable value of 1-for-2ing yourself to cheat out an Avenger of Zendikar with a whopping 3 plant tokens to back it up) but still don't see why you wouldn't just want to jam a Thran Dynamo, Frontier Siege, or something similar on turn 3 if your deck is chock full of fatties. You aren't costing yourself a whole card just to get a creature out a half-turn sooner and it provides great value until someone else burns a card to get rid of it.
Avenger was a bad example but the point is mostly that is enables very interesting deckbuilding opportunities. It's basically a Show and Tell and since it's reasonably difficult to jam things like Sylvan Primordial and Worldspine Wurm on turn 3 that definitely piques my interest. I agree that jamming Dynamo provides you with more long-term value but it's also a full turn slower. The prospect of jamming a turn 3 Sylvan/Wurm is certainly powerful enough to warrant testing. After all, it's certainly conceivable that speed could trump most other variables and that jamming your threats a full sooner could yield a higher win %. This seems especially likely in larger metas (such as my own) given that Sylvan Primordial is routinely jamming 6-7 lands into play. At that point I don't care if I'm down a card because I'd rather have 11 mana than +1 cards in hand come turn 4. It could still be worse, I won't pretend to know otherwise, but I think that the card is definitely worth testing.
Hey, thank you for this guide and your other multiplayer guides. I've been using all of them to get a scope of what the relevant multiplayer cards are in their respective colors. To preface, my friends and I are hyper casual multiplayer MTG players that only play 60 card fun decks. Now that we've moved out all over the country, we've reconnected through Tabletop Simulator in an MTG mod that contains every card printed. We've revived our old decks from Middle School, made new ones, edited them with expensive cards, etc. We're having a blast, and we are playing Vintage with the exception of Power 9 being banned. This leads me to making an account and offering the following feedback:
There are contradictions between the times you say X > X and "I would put this in 100% of my decks if I had the money" and what is actually represented in the sample decks. You made a disclaimer that all of your decks are relatively budget, so I understand this completely.
An easy example would be looking at your first sample deck: Lurking Predators. You have no Primeval Titans in the deck, but you succinctly state that it is the best 7 drop in the game. Are they not in your sample deck because of budget in mind, or do the other cards listed synergize better?
What I mean is: I have the most fun doing mana ramp --> big things and big creatures, so I enjoy green a lot. My group meta right now has a ton of black, discards, etc. Scavenging ooze seems good for my meta, and you mention you would put 4 in your deck if you owned 4. Obstinate Baloth seems good for my meta as well. That being said, I have access to Primeval Titans, Scavenging Oozes, a Sol Ring, etc. Do you have any "dream" deck lists where budget isn't necessarily an issue? Can you link me an example of one? My ideal scenario is finding a high-potential and costly sample deck that I can tweak in certain areas to fit to my group meta. It's hard for me to commit time into building and iterating a deck without any experience in creature/spell/land balance -- I just really enjoy playing with my circle. Any direction would go a long way. Thank you!
An easy example would be looking at your first sample deck: Lurking Predators. You have no Primeval Titans in the deck, but you succinctly state that it is the best 7 drop in the game. Are they not in your sample deck because of budget in mind, or do the other cards listed synergize better?
100% budget. To be fair this guide is really freaking old and back when I made it Lurking Predators was $1.00 USD (I got my playset for 5 bucks) and Sylvan Primordial wasn't even printed. The guide and sample decks need a massive update.
What I mean is: I have the most fun doing mana ramp --> big things and big creatures, so I enjoy green a lot. My group meta right now has a ton of black, discards, etc. Scavenging ooze seems good for my meta, and you mention you would put 4 in your deck if you owned 4. Obstinate Baloth seems good for my meta as well. That being said, I have access to Primeval Titans, Scavenging Oozes, a Sol Ring, etc. Do you have any "dream" deck lists where budget isn't necessarily an issue? Can you link me an example of one? My ideal scenario is finding a high-potential and costly sample deck that I can tweak in certain areas to fit to my group meta. It's hard for me to commit time into building and iterating a deck without any experience in creature/spell/land balance -- I just really enjoy playing with my circle. Any direction would go a long way. Thank you!
Just so we're clear does Vintage imply typical Vintage restricted list except P9 is banned? I.e. only 1x Sol Ring and 1x Fastbond?
Also, are you looking for something that's purely monogreen or are you interested in other colors as well? If you want to know why I'm asking the biggest reason is Burgeoning. You've read the card and you have a brain so you can probably understand why I want to know if you're willing to splash colors like Blue and Red for Windfall and Wheel of Fortune. Turn 1 Burgeoning, turn 2 untap with 4-5 lands and cast Wheel of Fortune/Windfall/Time Spiral, turn 3 untap with 9 lands in play. Balanced :)! You obviously don't need draw 7s to make Burgeoning busted but I figured that I'd ask.
Wow, I cooked up dinner and am blown away by the response time here on an ancient thread haha. You hit the nail on the head on Vintage minus Power 9 (limit 1 restricted card per deck). I do not mind multicolored, I just like green fatties and enjoy green mana ramping. It's just so hard to build one!
Also, holy *****. Burgeoning seems so strong in multiplayer lol. I will definitely be putting one or more in my deck.
I love combos but not really infinites. The latter combo using Forbidden Orchard and Oath of Druids is my type of combo / interaction though. I do not care about budgets at all, so cards like Natural Order and 1x Sol Ring is what I'm looking to integrate. I've seen these cards while researching and I'm thinking "jesus, these seem so strong. Why aren't they in any of the samples?" I understand now that it's just outdated. I tried building my own, and I couldn't get past the Sorcery / Instants category without breaking 25 lol. They all seem so good so it's hard to know where to start without a foundation.
For more clarity about what sorts of interactions I like / don't like playing: I have a Valakut deck, a Owling mine deck, a Forbidden Orchard deck that uses Suture Priest and things like Blood Artist, and an affinity for artifacts deck. Our group meta has a few early infinites, but we generally switch out of those quickly. I have the most fun when there are interactions that affect others like Oath of Druids, that Wheel / Windfall / Time Spiral combo sounds right up my alley, or just getting huge fatties on the board. I want to start with a fatty green deck using Lurking Predators or whatever is not outdated, and I will eventually try to find / tweak an up to date vintage Eldrazi deck.
My group meta is very slow. People are afraid to attack because it causes aggro. We are in a transition period out of it, because some of our players have built really fast decks to punish defenseless, non-creature, slower decks. This has inspired a few graveyard decks, discard for damage, and other stuff. Things like Birds of Paradise is strong in my meta, mostly because my meta plays selfishly right now. Little board interaction until they complete what they want to do first. I want to sort of change things by starting to smacking people around with quick fatties, forcing people to put removal in their decks, etc.
Thank you again for helping out! If you're ever in LA I'll buy you a beer or three.
Let's start with a deck such as this for now. Green Sun Zenith makes it "feel" as though you have 8 copies of everything and makes legendaries such as Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary utterly insane. After all, you never have to worry about drawing multiples and a turn 2 Rofellos is ridiculously powerful. Dryad Arbor is there to turn Green Sun's Zenith into a Elvish Mystic for turn 1 (assuming that you don't have a BoP) and Lotus Cobra is there to abuse Fetchlands and landfall. Your eventual win condition is Kessig Wolf Run which pairs well with Xenagos, God of Revels. Is this close to what you're looking for as an initial build? We can still build fun combo decks but let's hammer this Lurking Predators deck out first.
If you're wondering why the deck is so creature-heavy that's what you want in a Lurking Predators list. I always play with 28-32 "hits" so we can't afford to keep cutting creatures if we want LP to kick butt.
Mana Crypt I'm on the fence about in "fair" decks. You don't have to lose many flips to find yourself totally screwed. I typically prefer it in truly unfair combo decks, ones that can kill it and/or ones with obscene amounts of lifegain. For example, we could add Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers to this list and with Urborg around Roots of Life becomes insane. Maybe the Oozes are enough though, I couldn't tell you really. My concern is that you said that your meta is light on removal so how big are they even getting?
This is exactly what I was looking for! I'm about to take this deck for a spin, I'll update you after I break it in. Can't thank you enough. Oozes should ramp up quickly, my meta is very heavy with decks and discarding. It doesn't really ramp from removal as much as discarding. If they're not getting much use, I'll look to switch it out.
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Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3372896
**** you.
Maybe Tich IS CZ! Or at least I hope CZ asked permission to use Tich's work so liberally. Didn't read the end, but I certainly hope some credit can be given.
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1 mana 1/1 "traders" (see Loyal Sentry, Typhoid Rats) are playable but they're never going to blow you away. The reality of the matter is that any warm body is probably good enough on turn 1 or 2 and the people playing Deathrite Shaman, Figure of Destiny, Thrull Parasite and Scavenging Ooze are getting the better end of the bargain. They deter attacks, sure, but "not losing" isn't the same thing as "winning" and there are plenty of cards that do both. Well, ok, not plenty but there's some :P. What it boils down to is that the best decks will never have them because if your best play is a 1/1 blocker then anyone who just goes Simic Signet into Forgotten Ancient or whatever is way ahead because they progressed their boards in meaningful ways wheres you wasted cards on blockers. Even though you can block that Taurean Mauler or whatever and threaten to trade with it the reality of the matter is that the guy ripping into more "good stuff" has an advantage over the person ripping into blockers.
Tich was jackass and I don't feel bad about ripping off his material. He can sue me to take this thread down if he wants but a joker like him doesn't deserve the credit for this kind of work.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I think you should go back to Tich; I had just gotten used to CZ. Are you every going to bother to do a multiplayer review of Journey into Nyx?
In my defense I would have kept Cz but the new Curse site won't let me have a 2 character name. I haven't used the moniker "Tich" in a long time. It's short for Tichondrius (a much cooler name) who was a hero in Warcraft III. That should give you an idea of when I last used it. Then again maybe I should just use it because that's how a lot of people know me.
I thought about reviewing JOU I just don't know how much those reviews actually accomplish. Nor these guides for that matter.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
It depends on what you hope to accomplish. I find your reviews and guides to be be thought-provoking, comment starters, and useful for research. However, I am not the one doing the work! If they don't "pay," I certainly wouldn't push you to create them. Consider the question retracted.
I will say this. Unasked for commentary, so I hope I do not offend.
Most of your general attitudes about multiplayer are where your question derives from. You are a proponent of a small amount of cards being the entire playing pool. Go back through your posts and look at the trend. Discussion about card/deck ensues. You point out the optimum build or which cards are, generally, best. Many times you say something along the lines of X Goodstuffs is better than this so play that. Or, X does this better so this isn't fruitful. [Obvious exaggeration. However, I suspect with your mind, you are self-reflective enough to realize this is in the realm of accuracy.] You have even fairly defended it. Is that not why we are here? Why would I offer anything, but the best? You ask, rhetorically. Fair enough.
However, I posit that most players do not have a situation like yours. Based upon lurking for years here, and previously on the mothership's terrible forums, I have found your insight excellent, your ability to adapt to shifting metagames impeccable, and your humbleness in admitting when you are wrong about a card or deck admirable. You are largely a benign influence on discussion and add worthwhile information and perspective.
However, you have a blind spot; you judge multiplayer by your unique situation. Based upon your representation, your games are large and revolve around haymakers. This makes your games sound like (please emphasize the previous two words) largely a crap-shoot with combo/control decks duking it out with mid-rangy goodstuff/combo. [Note: I am aware that all groups gravitate towards this, to greater and lesser degrees, as the tripod of aggro-control-combo is broken. Instead of Conspiracy R & D should focus on ways to make more axis of attack profitable and attractive in multiplayer. Luckily, my experience differs from yours. I have had the luxury of being a part of 10 different metagmes over the years and everyone of those groups have had various individuals willing to fall on their sword to shake up the environment.]
Honestly, if I played with you I would probably attempt to create decks to drive you out of your rut. I know that isn't nice, and certainly doesn't support your philosophy of focusing upon winning, but it might be the best thing to happen to you as you would consider other, even sub-optimal, options.
Consider this recent example:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of your commentary and your deck is spot on. Please don't mistake me to be attacking your credentials of being largely correct about good card choices or how to effectively affect a table. In fact, please don't think I am attacking you in any way.
Does it every get boring, though? I would assume that you would seldom play a 3+ color deck. Creating an unwieldy mana-base when you can win with a streamlined mono-color deck cuts down win-percentage.
What this long and, again I apologize, unasked for commentary amounts to is that your ennui might derive from the fact that you externalize your metagame to be the metagames of everyone else. This leads you to only consider a, relatively, small card pool and deck shells to be worthwhile, and, because you promote stagnation of your own metagame by not attempting to shift it (as what you are doing works), this will not change. This will circumscribe what you have to say about the vast majority of cards and multiplayer topics.
What sucks is this: you are not wrong, you need not change, you owe nothing to no one, and you will continue to win, but your wisdom will become repetitious and your observations will become boring to you as, succinctly ("Finally!"), most comments boil down to "This is not as good as this 99% of the time" better known as "play mono-black."
P.S. This ramble got away from me. I love what you do. Your comment, though, touched upon something that I have thought about your posts a long time: I think it is unfortunate that so many enjoyable cards won't be played by you because they are not the best.
You asked about multicolor decks. You're right; I'm 1 a one and done kind of guy. The only color pairing that I truly enjoy is RG because Kessig Wolf Run is just not a real card. Otherwise I greatly prefer mono-colored decks and let's just say that Nykthos + Gods + Devotion hasn't exactly helped on that front. As if I didn't need more of a reason to sleeve up 26 Swamps Wizards had to go and give me Gray Merchant and Erebos and all of that jazz. Anyways, there's nothing logical or rational about my preference to mono-colored decks. Well, it's somewhat logical in the sense that I don't have money to shell out for lands. What I can afford is 26 Mountains, some Taurean Maulers and some Mass Mutinys or whatever. I always consider the worth of my investment when I purchase magic cards which is why I tend to favor flexible, powerful enablers such as Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I buy 4 and play them in all of my decks because I am perfectly content to build my decks the day before I play them (or even right before the gang gets together). Anyways, what this means is that a long time ago I decided that the best use of money would be to grab flexible playables in every color that could fit in any number of decks. As a result my mana bases suck and I can't just play 3-4 color decks willy-nilly but I'll always come prepared with something packed with powerful haymakers.
With respect to mono-Black being the "top 1%" I have no real way of knowing how strong the color actually is. I would be playing mono-Black even if it was the weakest color combination to field in MP. I can't explain why it matters to me that I play mono-Black decks but it just does. There's no logic or rationale behind it. So yes, I sing its praises on the rooftops and I know the ins-and-outs of the color but I don't know for a fact that it's the color to be if you want to win. Frankly I think BG is a much more powerful color combination on average and if I truly wanted to maximize my win% then I'd focus on that combo more than I currently do. The Graveyard is a horrendously overpowered zone after all.
About my meta revolving around haymakers, I'm not sure if that's the best way to describe it. What I try to preach to players is that they typically need legitimate ways of ending games and that's much easier said than done in a multiplayer setting. Early on in my MP days we used to have games that would drag on for hours because people played with bad decks that had no real endgame which was fine at the time but eventually I couldn't help but think "there has to be better way to go about this." Since we Cube the vast majority of the time I can "force" people to play with cards like Cyclonic Rift, Phthisis, Hex and Mizzium Mortars which just so happen to end games (or take out a player at the very least) more often than not. By moving away from actual Wraths which only prolong the game and more towards "Plague Winds" and battlecruisers (see Sepulchral Primordial) games actually end in reasonable timeframes.
As much as you'd like to "drive me out of my rut" I can guarantee you that you'd fail. I don't play mono-Black because I think that it's optimal nor would I be turned-off if you started sending a little hate my way. I've always been a big believer in sideboards and you can bet your boots that I'd have my Big Black Binder of Black cards sitting near me and I wouldn't be shy about hating out your hate. A bit of back-and-forth is healthy in my experience as it keeps everyone honest. Otherwise it's far too easy to get away with murder.
As far "I win" combo is concerned, we don't employ it. There's no formal ban on it or anything but more of a general understanding. Every now and then something crops up in EDH but it's not something ridiculously OP that uses a general or whatever. More often than not it's something unintentional that just so happens to crop up. Anyways, this means that people are free to play Control, Ramp, Midrange, etc. without having to fear immediate loss on the 5-6th turn. People are welcome to play aggro if they so choose but let's just say that aggro died a long time ago... right around the time when I acquired my Damnations actually. Turn 2 mana rock into turn 3 Wrath just isn't beatable if your deck has a ton of 1-3 drops in it. I think that we have a very healthy meta as a result. Not too fast, not too slow, and not so competitive that everyone isn't winning games.
The next comment that I want to address concerns my games being crap shoots. That's by design. I am PROUD of the fact that anyone can win. The problem that we originally faced backed when we played Constructed/first started Cubing was that I won far too often. When I first built a Cube it was a solid foundation but it was too weak to negate the advantage of my playskill. I could extract more value from my resources and my win% was too high as a result. When you play Battlecruiser Magic anyone at any level can win which is how I personally like it. I think that having one player win far more than the others is toxic for a metagame and I refuse to be one of those people who intentionally plays poorly/plays weak decks/plays joke decks/kamikazes just to even things out. Not because I'm a psycho but because I don't believe for a second that the only solution involves gifting wins and humoring people. When I lose I lose knowing that I played my best with the best deck that I could possibly draft. I cannot for one second pin my loss on anything resembling a "hidden power-level." Building on that, when people beat me they beat me fair and square. People who're new to the game, don't own any cards and who barely understand the rules can walk away with their heads held high. That's something that I've strived to achieve for the better part of 5 years and I'm thrilled to find myself in said sphere. I'm not saying that I'm right and I could totally understand why people would want the best players to experience the most success. That's a perfectly reasonable argument. I personally never want to feel bad for winning but I'm not about to lose on purpose either and so this is the only solution that I've found for someone in my situation. Right or wrong it makes me happy and it makes everyone else happy as well and I don't intend to change anything. It's important to me that my losses are genuine because I am just not the kind of person who can do something poorly. I'm going to try my hardest and give it my all if I actually care about it.
Finally, I want to touch on your statement with regards the overall multiplayer card pool being small. I disagree with it in general because I don't believe for a second that the 4+ CMC cardpool is limited in any way shape or form. There's countless options at those CMCs and I personally believe that I do a good job at highlighting them and promoting them in my guides/posts. What does bother me is how few strong playables are located in the lower CMCs, especially on the creature front. Take Red for example. My Red curve tends to be Figure of Destiny into Kargan Dragonlord into Boros Reckoner/Taurean Mauler. Budget? **** no. Effective? Post me a better curve if you can. I'm not saying that you can only run those cards or anything but it drives me crazy how much weaker the alternatives are. Every time I play a card that isn't Kargan Dragonlord at 2 CMC in Red I sit there thinking about how I wish it were a Kargan Dragonlord. When I draw that 2 drop on turn 8 I can't help but think "why the Hell am I not playing Kargan Dragonlord?" I know that I'm obsessive and anal and whatever but it's just frustrating to have such a small quantity of solid playables none of which are budget. I would LOVE to have every Black/Green deck start with 4x Deathrite Shaman and 4x Scavenging Ooze but that's like $70.00 or something insane. Still, I mean, do you want to be playing the Green deck that doesn't have those cards against decks that do? Not really no. So yeah, I get that I'm always doom and gloom about the low-end of the curve because there's just so few creatures that I actively want to run at those CMCs. On a very fundamental level it bothers me that I can't just tell everyone to purchase 4x Scavenging Ooze and 4x Stoneforge Mystic and to play them in 100% of their Green/White decks. I would. My brain is telling me that anything else would be foolish. So yeah, in that sense I completely agree that I have a very narrow mindset when it comes to cheap creatures.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Can't talk about other people, but I really enjoy your reviews (I'm constantly refreshing your blog hoping it shows up :P). I usually have a decent idea of what works and what doesn't but you usually explain the why or why not. This in turn gives insight towards other cards which is just great for me.
Having said that, YOU are the one doing the work, I'm just reaping the benefits. So what you have to ask yourself is do you get anything out of these guides?
Oh and while we are talking about you doing all the work, you should totally finish your cube building guide. This last post of yours was great insight on card choices in the cube. With haymakers leveling the playing field and speeding up the game. I was leaning towards that direction, but couldn't justify it completely and now I can. Thanks!
My 450ish 1vs1 cube
Your ramp decks are either mutli-coloured or tron/post. Possibly include just a regular mono-green, non-Lurking Predators-based deck? I guess creatures that go off of Forests or they care about how much GGG is in a card's CMC.
I've been working on a monogreen Commander deck and this was incredibly helpful.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
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What the ******* Hell how have I never heard of this card until now?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'm planning on trying it out as a new orthogonal win con in my main multiplayer green deck.
It only got back on my radar recently because it also happens to be a Reserved List card and has started rising. I didn't want to find them out of reach so I went ahead and finished my playset.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
Not to mention, there's a big diff between 4 and 5 mana, especially in the color of ramp.
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
450-Card "Artificer's Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/artificer
Cubing in Indianapolis...send me a PM!!
First of all 1 mana is more than enough to make or break a card competitive. Compare Painful Truths to Concentrate or Utopia Sprawl to Rampant Growth. If a spell is determined to cost N and you get to play it for N-1 then you're ostensibly cheating the system. This is especially true in Green of all colors since the probability that you ramp within the first 3 turns of the game is exceptionally high. When you start treating it as a 3 drop as opposed to a 4 drop the card becomes that much more powerful. Beyond that it's merely a matter of fielding a critical mass of spells that matter. Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, Avenger of Zendikar, Green has no shortage of powerful minions to cheat out. While some are suggesting Progenitus that seems a bit short-sighted to me because are you going to plan on drawing them? How many are you playing? How are you casting them normally? Natural Order for a singleton Proggy makes sense but less so in this instance. I could somewhat understand Worldspine Wurm in a Sylvan Primordial deck but even then I'd want something like Sneak Attack as backup. Still, what's wrong with a turn 3 Sylvan Primordial off of a Wild Growth? It's not as though Green is flush with powerful, budget-minded 4 drops and while the Lure isn't free it's still somewhat affordable.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I agree with you on almost all of this post (Aside from the questionable value of 1-for-2ing yourself to cheat out an Avenger of Zendikar with a whopping 3 plant tokens to back it up) but still don't see why you wouldn't just want to jam a Thran Dynamo, Frontier Siege, or something similar on turn 3 if your deck is chock full of fatties. You aren't costing yourself a whole card just to get a creature out a half-turn sooner and it provides great value until someone else burns a card to get rid of it.
Avenger was a bad example but the point is mostly that is enables very interesting deckbuilding opportunities. It's basically a Show and Tell and since it's reasonably difficult to jam things like Sylvan Primordial and Worldspine Wurm on turn 3 that definitely piques my interest. I agree that jamming Dynamo provides you with more long-term value but it's also a full turn slower. The prospect of jamming a turn 3 Sylvan/Wurm is certainly powerful enough to warrant testing. After all, it's certainly conceivable that speed could trump most other variables and that jamming your threats a full sooner could yield a higher win %. This seems especially likely in larger metas (such as my own) given that Sylvan Primordial is routinely jamming 6-7 lands into play. At that point I don't care if I'm down a card because I'd rather have 11 mana than +1 cards in hand come turn 4. It could still be worse, I won't pretend to know otherwise, but I think that the card is definitely worth testing.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
There are contradictions between the times you say X > X and "I would put this in 100% of my decks if I had the money" and what is actually represented in the sample decks. You made a disclaimer that all of your decks are relatively budget, so I understand this completely.
An easy example would be looking at your first sample deck: Lurking Predators. You have no Primeval Titans in the deck, but you succinctly state that it is the best 7 drop in the game. Are they not in your sample deck because of budget in mind, or do the other cards listed synergize better?
What I mean is: I have the most fun doing mana ramp --> big things and big creatures, so I enjoy green a lot. My group meta right now has a ton of black, discards, etc. Scavenging ooze seems good for my meta, and you mention you would put 4 in your deck if you owned 4. Obstinate Baloth seems good for my meta as well. That being said, I have access to Primeval Titans, Scavenging Oozes, a Sol Ring, etc. Do you have any "dream" deck lists where budget isn't necessarily an issue? Can you link me an example of one? My ideal scenario is finding a high-potential and costly sample deck that I can tweak in certain areas to fit to my group meta. It's hard for me to commit time into building and iterating a deck without any experience in creature/spell/land balance -- I just really enjoy playing with my circle. Any direction would go a long way. Thank you!
100% budget. To be fair this guide is really freaking old and back when I made it Lurking Predators was $1.00 USD (I got my playset for 5 bucks) and Sylvan Primordial wasn't even printed. The guide and sample decks need a massive update.
Just so we're clear does Vintage imply typical Vintage restricted list except P9 is banned? I.e. only 1x Sol Ring and 1x Fastbond?
Also, are you looking for something that's purely monogreen or are you interested in other colors as well? If you want to know why I'm asking the biggest reason is Burgeoning. You've read the card and you have a brain so you can probably understand why I want to know if you're willing to splash colors like Blue and Red for Windfall and Wheel of Fortune. Turn 1 Burgeoning, turn 2 untap with 4-5 lands and cast Wheel of Fortune/Windfall/Time Spiral, turn 3 untap with 9 lands in play. Balanced :)! You obviously don't need draw 7s to make Burgeoning busted but I figured that I'd ask.
Do you like combos? Quick example: Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest creates infinite 1/1 attackers/blockers. Another example is Forbidden Orchard + Oath of Druids to jam fatties into play for free on turns 3 and beyond.
Do you care about budgets at all? As in, you want to see cards like Natural Order because you're playing online and so cost is irrelevant?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Also, holy *****. Burgeoning seems so strong in multiplayer lol. I will definitely be putting one or more in my deck.
I love combos but not really infinites. The latter combo using Forbidden Orchard and Oath of Druids is my type of combo / interaction though. I do not care about budgets at all, so cards like Natural Order and 1x Sol Ring is what I'm looking to integrate. I've seen these cards while researching and I'm thinking "jesus, these seem so strong. Why aren't they in any of the samples?" I understand now that it's just outdated. I tried building my own, and I couldn't get past the Sorcery / Instants category without breaking 25 lol. They all seem so good so it's hard to know where to start without a foundation.
For more clarity about what sorts of interactions I like / don't like playing: I have a Valakut deck, a Owling mine deck, a Forbidden Orchard deck that uses Suture Priest and things like Blood Artist, and an affinity for artifacts deck. Our group meta has a few early infinites, but we generally switch out of those quickly. I have the most fun when there are interactions that affect others like Oath of Druids, that Wheel / Windfall / Time Spiral combo sounds right up my alley, or just getting huge fatties on the board. I want to start with a fatty green deck using Lurking Predators or whatever is not outdated, and I will eventually try to find / tweak an up to date vintage Eldrazi deck.
My group meta is very slow. People are afraid to attack because it causes aggro. We are in a transition period out of it, because some of our players have built really fast decks to punish defenseless, non-creature, slower decks. This has inspired a few graveyard decks, discard for damage, and other stuff. Things like Birds of Paradise is strong in my meta, mostly because my meta plays selfishly right now. Little board interaction until they complete what they want to do first. I want to sort of change things by starting to smacking people around with quick fatties, forcing people to put removal in their decks, etc.
Thank you again for helping out! If you're ever in LA I'll buy you a beer or three.
FWIW the reason why I don't post many sample decks with cards like Burgeoning and Natural Order is purely cost.
I can help you build multiple decks but let's do this one at a time for now.
10x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Taiga
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Gaea's Cradle
Creatures (28)
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Lotus Cobra
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
4x Primeval Titan
2x Sylvan Primordial
2x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
4x Lurking Predators
Let's start with a deck such as this for now. Green Sun Zenith makes it "feel" as though you have 8 copies of everything and makes legendaries such as Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary utterly insane. After all, you never have to worry about drawing multiples and a turn 2 Rofellos is ridiculously powerful. Dryad Arbor is there to turn Green Sun's Zenith into a Elvish Mystic for turn 1 (assuming that you don't have a BoP) and Lotus Cobra is there to abuse Fetchlands and landfall. Your eventual win condition is Kessig Wolf Run which pairs well with Xenagos, God of Revels. Is this close to what you're looking for as an initial build? We can still build fun combo decks but let's hammer this Lurking Predators deck out first.
If you're wondering why the deck is so creature-heavy that's what you want in a Lurking Predators list. I always play with 28-32 "hits" so we can't afford to keep cutting creatures if we want LP to kick butt.
Mana Crypt I'm on the fence about in "fair" decks. You don't have to lose many flips to find yourself totally screwed. I typically prefer it in truly unfair combo decks, ones that can kill it and/or ones with obscene amounts of lifegain. For example, we could add Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers to this list and with Urborg around Roots of Life becomes insane. Maybe the Oozes are enough though, I couldn't tell you really. My concern is that you said that your meta is light on removal so how big are they even getting?
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