I don't actually keep decks that I build. The nice thing about multiplayer is that there's no such thing as a perfect 60. You can always tweak and tune it to be a little bit better given your meta. What I usually do is build something that's more-or-less in line with what other people are doing. If other people are playing with old, powerful cards then I'll whip out Mana Vault, Vampiric Tutor, Sol Ring, Skullclamp, Demonic Tutor, Necropotence, Recurring Nightmare, etc. If other people are using combos then I'll play something that can potentially kill people on turn 3 or so too.
There's not really much that I can say beyond that. My "ideal" decklists just included overpowered cards that everyone already knows about. I'm not enlightening any minds when I say that Demonic Tutor and Skullclamp are good things to be playing. Most people are already well aware of that. What it boils down to, for me, is playing something on par with what other people are doing. I don't see the point in being the only person playing with Sol Ring/das Clamp because it's just not very fun. I could make a ton of mistakes and still easily win. I'd much rather play with Worn Powerstone or some other fair card if no one else is using anything obnoxiously powerful.
What I will say is that most of my decks are quite expensive but I mean I've collected the cards over 12 years so it's not very surprising. I usually play with 4x Damnation, 4xCabal Coffers, 2-3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, 1x Phyrexian Tower, 1x Volrath's Stronghold, 1x High Market and my creature base usually includes 4x Wurmcoil Engine or Kokusho, the Evening Star. Again, not blowing any minds here. Just play the good cards in large quantities. Still, I also usually play with random dorky spells such as Phthisis and Profane Command because I like just killing people with them lol. I dunno, most of my decks end up being very "highlander-esque" in the sense that I just play 34 powerful cards or whatever. I don't usually care what my 3, 4 and 6 drops are because all of the best options are very good. With respect to draw, we're Black, so most of the options are very good. It's kinda fun building decks that do "the same thing" every game without ever really doing "the same thing" twice.
I guess some sample decks would look something like:
I don't actually keep decks that I build. The nice thing about multiplayer is that there's no such thing as a perfect 60. You can always tweak and tune it to be a little bit better given your meta.
Do you still run some version of a discard/pox deck? Is it similar to what is already listed? Looks like a unique style of control that would do well in my meta.
Yes I do. I'm actually fooling around with Uba Mask now to see if I can do something cool with it. I still don't have a finished product that I can showcase though. I'd love to live the dream and go deep with Bazaar of Baghdad but that's not realistic lol. I like how it helps keep people at 0 cards, I like how it keeps me at 0 cards and I like how it can make draw spells usable in a deck that doesn't really want them otherwise.
But yeah, the lists in my guide are fairly up-to-date. You could obv jam Demonic/Vampiric Tutor, Top + Fetchlands and Sol Ring in them and such but that goes without saying in my mind.
How would an Extort deck compare to the drain-based and vampiric-drain decks? If one wanted to create a life damage deck, are there any distinguishing features between the two that should be taken into consideration?
So exort is a super amazing thing in multiplayer.
And Crypt Ghast is a must in the monoblackramptomassivedrainforgame decks.
Blind obedience is also great.
This is my current black deck for multiplayer. I'm calling it black Ice because black ice is deadly. and im just going to say my kill spells are just the creatures slipping and dying. or getting negative effects from the cold :B
http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/954985 kinda forgot how to post a deck list atm lol. my playgroup goes by allowing any cards in standard/modern/legacy. so no banned cards. all the cards in the sideboard are cards im considering. I managed to make a 7 player match last an hour. mainly because of some bad draws. ended up winning though lol
Also, depending on your meta, Memory Plunder could help you deal with artifacts and enchantments. Just wait and use someone's else Disenchant or Counterspell when and if you need it.
Memory Plunder has plenty of other uses too, so it's always a fun card to have.
Come to think of it, Graveborn Muse doesn't need other zombies but she combined just dandy with Gutless Ghoul. If she gets out of hand he just eats her.
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Wow. Just wow. I've been playing mono-black Multiplayer for a few months and thought I had it down more or less, but you've completely changed how I look at the game. I read some of your other stuff and you said you didn't like this guide, but it's fantastic. Tons of information for different kinds of decks. The repetition is good, it helps highlight the better cards and strategies. Love this guide. Love it. Definitely going to be referring back to it whenever I build a new deck. And so many new tricks! Boseiju, Who Shelters All! Finally no more counterspells! *rubs hands together excitedly*
Are there good alternative cards to ensnaring bridge to use for defense for the pox based deck?
Unfortunately there aren't any good budget alternatives. Noetic Scales does a decent "Moat" impression at times but it's clearly a significantly weaker card. The Abyss would be good but it's not affordable. Basically back when I played Bridges weren't like $10.00 or whatever they are now so this kind of deck was realistic to build. Nowadays... not so much. You can obviously just play more mass removal, Massacre and Barter in Bloods to go with Innocent and Smallpox perhaps, but that doesn't lock the game up like Bridge does. Meekstone is "okay" at times I guess but I mean you really need the Bridges if you want to have the best versions of the deck in my mind.
Why is the Chasm bad? If anything I'd think it'd work better with the Shrine since I don't rely on my lands for mana.
Because Chasm essentially takes up room you need for devotion generating permanents. 4x Chasm and 4x Nykthos is 8 cards that you don't want to see in multiples... that's a recipe for terrible draws. You basically have a 20 land list... which is terrible when you want to curve out every turn. You don't need Chasm anyway... You have creature blockers and 3x No Mercy...
Why is the Chasm bad? If anything I'd think it'd work better with the Shrine since I don't rely on my lands for mana.
Because Chasm essentially takes up room you need for devotion generating permanents. 4x Chasm and 4x Nykthos is 8 cards that you don't want to see in multiples... that's a recipe for terrible draws. You basically have a 20 land list... which is terrible when you want to curve out every turn. You don't need Chasm anyway... You have creature blockers and 3x No Mercy...
Basically this. The only thing that I'll add is that Chasm is especially bad in Nykthos decks because it transforms your list into something that's always going to be 100% all-in. If you can go 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop with a Nykthos out then you'll usually be able to afford losing a land. The problem, however, is that you don't always curve out perfectly and people won't always let you get away with murder. Mass removal, or even just plain spot removal, are real threats and you don't want to find yourself sitting with a Nykthos, Chasm and like 1-2 Swamps on turn 5 or 6 after a Wrath. Even if you have an Arena and an Ascension out you're still not in a great spot. Nykthos is a powerful Magic card but, like Sparticus highlighted, additional copies beyond the first are basically just Rituals. In that sense he's not far from the mark when he says that you're basically playing a 20 land deck that plays 4 self-Sinkholes. Even though you can basically always get value out of future copies of Nykthos, Exsanguinate is a real card after all, you still need a baseline amount of mana to support this kind of strategy. As such, I strong encourage you to cut back on the Chasms and get some more Swamps in there. You don't have to cut all of the Chasms if you don't want to but you definitely do not want to be playing 4. I would opt for 1-2 at first and adjust the number from there after you've seen it in action a few times.
If you're still not convinced, think about it like this. An easy way for a Nykthos deck to win games is to make all its early land drops, curve out into a Gray Merchant and then close the game out with an Exsanguinate. An easy way for a Nykthos decks to lose games s to get stuck on a 1-2 mana and never cast a relevant spell. You don't need luck to win games when you're emploing a powerful, linear, consistent strategy. You just need a solid, average draw. Chasm + Nykthos, in multiples, lead to very awkward/bad/unplayble draws.
I just noticed that you didn't create a sample Reanimator List. I use this Sticky as reference for what is good in Black Multiplayer and I realized that while you mention some Reanimator Options, you don't go into detail into how to really build that up.
The problem I have is that there just so much extra cards there that I feel it's better to just go Coffers and/or Crypt Ghast and windmill slam creatures onto the board without jumping through hoops. Perhaps Reanimation is only a good 1v1 strategy and hence your non-inclusion? If so, perhaps a mention. Or is it more of a garnish to your deck? Don't make them the focus, but a single copy of Strands of Night is good.
Reanimator is a very awkward strategy in many ways. First of all, the single best card in any Reanimator deck is Entomb. It costs $20.00, no one owns them and it serves no real purpose other than to cheat Griselbrand into play. If I wanted to pitch an actual "good" Reanimation deck it would basically have to play 4 of them which defeats the purpose of this style of guide. If the solution is just "throw money at the problem" then my message will only apply to 3-5% of my viewer base.
So, let's assume that I stick to my guns and not jam 20 dollar cards in my decks. What do I do? Tell people to play 4x Oona's Prowler, 4x Buried Alive and just hope to get there? Tell them to dick around with tutor chains such as Beseech the Queen for Buried Alive into Animate Dead? Why? It's now turn 5; why not just cast Worn Powerstone on turn 3 (or Crypt Ghast or Cabal Coffers or whatever) and hardcast those things? What happens when that creature then dies? Do you just lose the game? Or do I tell people to play Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and ensure that no one has fun?
Basically there a ton of reasons why I don't like talking about straight Reanimator. I am very much for playing singleton recursive engines such as Diabolic Servitude but in general I don't see a reason to tell people to play turn 4 Reanimator decks given that you can just hardcast your fatties at that stage of the game. So yes, in that sense you hit the nail on the head with your last statement. In general I think that it's just much better to play a rampy Control deck with sweep finishers that plays a few revival tools. Play Buried Alive if you want, the card is gas, but don't worry about making it your plan A for every game.
What I will say is that it's inexcusable for me to not have something listed. In fact, the vast majority of the decks in my guide are outdated pieces of crap. Half of the guide is an outdated piece of crap. That's why I rarely reply to this thread any more. It bothers me. My guides frustrate me to no end because I can't make them good. I know that they're bad and I keep trying to fix them but I can never get them to be what I want.
There's not really much that I can say beyond that. My "ideal" decklists just included overpowered cards that everyone already knows about. I'm not enlightening any minds when I say that Demonic Tutor and Skullclamp are good things to be playing. Most people are already well aware of that. What it boils down to, for me, is playing something on par with what other people are doing. I don't see the point in being the only person playing with Sol Ring/das Clamp because it's just not very fun. I could make a ton of mistakes and still easily win. I'd much rather play with Worn Powerstone or some other fair card if no one else is using anything obnoxiously powerful.
So yeah, not too sure how to answer that. I mean, you basically just play Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor and usually Necropotence in your otherwise powerful deck. If it has combos like Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage or Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience, so be it. If it's just using Skullclamp to draw cards with Bloodghast while Gravepact wrecks people that's fine too. Again, it's just about playing the most degenerate, overpowered spells and mindlessly riding them to victory. Still, that's just not very fun unless everyone is doing it.
What I will say is that most of my decks are quite expensive but I mean I've collected the cards over 12 years so it's not very surprising. I usually play with 4x Damnation, 4xCabal Coffers, 2-3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, 1x Phyrexian Tower, 1x Volrath's Stronghold, 1x High Market and my creature base usually includes 4x Wurmcoil Engine or Kokusho, the Evening Star. Again, not blowing any minds here. Just play the good cards in large quantities. Still, I also usually play with random dorky spells such as Phthisis and Profane Command because I like just killing people with them lol. I dunno, most of my decks end up being very "highlander-esque" in the sense that I just play 34 powerful cards or whatever. I don't usually care what my 3, 4 and 6 drops are because all of the best options are very good. With respect to draw, we're Black, so most of the options are very good. It's kinda fun building decks that do "the same thing" every game without ever really doing "the same thing" twice.
I guess some sample decks would look something like:
17x Swamp
4x Cabal Coffers
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x High Market
1x Volrath's Stronghold
0x Boseiju, Who Shelters All [if counters are a concern]
Creatures (13)
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Phyrexian Obliterator
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
2x Sepulchral Primordial
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
3x Innocent Blood
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
2x Charcoal Diamond
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Exsanguinate
3x Phyrexian Arena
1x Necropotence
4x Damnation
1x Mutilate
1x Syphon Mind
14x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x High Market
Creatures (16)
4x Bloodghast
2x Reassembling Skeleton
4x Wight of Precinct Six
4x Avatar of Woe
1x Sepulchral Primordial
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3x Innocent Blood
4x Skullclamp
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Gate to Phyrexia
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Buried Alive
2x Recurring Nightmare
3x Grave Pact
1x All is Dust
8x Swamp
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Dark Depths
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures (4)
4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Innocent Blood
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Consultation
2x Charcoal Diamond
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Grim Discovery
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Necropotence
2x Beseech the Queen
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Helm of Obedience
2x Massacre
6x Free Slots
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Do you still run some version of a discard/pox deck? Is it similar to what is already listed? Looks like a unique style of control that would do well in my meta.
But yeah, the lists in my guide are fairly up-to-date. You could obv jam Demonic/Vampiric Tutor, Top + Fetchlands and Sol Ring in them and such but that goes without saying in my mind.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
And Crypt Ghast is a must in the monoblackramptomassivedrainforgame decks.
Blind obedience is also great.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/954985 kinda forgot how to post a deck list atm lol. my playgroup goes by allowing any cards in standard/modern/legacy. so no banned cards. all the cards in the sideboard are cards im considering. I managed to make a 7 player match last an hour. mainly because of some bad draws. ended up winning though lol
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WRParfaitRW
What are the best options?
Aura Shards would be amazing, but splashing two colors might be too much.
In white, there is Oblivion Ring, Vindicate, Mortify, Disenchant, Revoke Existence, Aura Blast, Serenity, Allay, Patrician's Scorn , Ray of Distortion, Purify, Austere Command, and Merciless Eviction.
In green, Maelstrom Pulse, Naturalize, Back to Nature, Tranquil Grove, Stomp and Howl, Sundering Vitae, Pernicious Deed, Calming Verse, Mystic Melting, Slice in Twain, Tranquil Path.
In blue, Steal Enchantment and Aura Flux.
Or maybe it is better to use a creature that can be later revived - Kami of Ancient Law, War Priest of Thune, Wispmare, High Priest of Penance, Angel of Despair, Aura Thief.
Finally, assuming such a splash, are there any monocolored white or green cards with good synergy with a black deck?
Memory Plunder has plenty of other uses too, so it's always a fun card to have.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Unfortunately there aren't any good budget alternatives. Noetic Scales does a decent "Moat" impression at times but it's clearly a significantly weaker card. The Abyss would be good but it's not affordable. Basically back when I played Bridges weren't like $10.00 or whatever they are now so this kind of deck was realistic to build. Nowadays... not so much. You can obviously just play more mass removal, Massacre and Barter in Bloods to go with Innocent and Smallpox perhaps, but that doesn't lock the game up like Bridge does. Meekstone is "okay" at times I guess but I mean you really need the Bridges if you want to have the best versions of the deck in my mind.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
4 Thrull Parasite
4 Exsanguinate
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Necropotence
2 Phyrexian Reclamation
2 Dark Ritual
1 Bloodchief Ascension
3 No Mercy
4 Glacial Chasm
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
19 Swamp
How does this look? The idea is to ramp out with Shrine abuse and slam down a Gray Merchant to sweep the entire board at once.
Chasm is bad in Nykthos decks.
Run more 2 drops like Nantuko Shade, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Cuombajj Witches, etc. You need a BB spell on 2 to make Nykthos work.
Looks solid otherwise.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Because Chasm essentially takes up room you need for devotion generating permanents. 4x Chasm and 4x Nykthos is 8 cards that you don't want to see in multiples... that's a recipe for terrible draws. You basically have a 20 land list... which is terrible when you want to curve out every turn. You don't need Chasm anyway... You have creature blockers and 3x No Mercy...
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Basically this. The only thing that I'll add is that Chasm is especially bad in Nykthos decks because it transforms your list into something that's always going to be 100% all-in. If you can go 1 drop, 2 drop, 3 drop with a Nykthos out then you'll usually be able to afford losing a land. The problem, however, is that you don't always curve out perfectly and people won't always let you get away with murder. Mass removal, or even just plain spot removal, are real threats and you don't want to find yourself sitting with a Nykthos, Chasm and like 1-2 Swamps on turn 5 or 6 after a Wrath. Even if you have an Arena and an Ascension out you're still not in a great spot. Nykthos is a powerful Magic card but, like Sparticus highlighted, additional copies beyond the first are basically just Rituals. In that sense he's not far from the mark when he says that you're basically playing a 20 land deck that plays 4 self-Sinkholes. Even though you can basically always get value out of future copies of Nykthos, Exsanguinate is a real card after all, you still need a baseline amount of mana to support this kind of strategy. As such, I strong encourage you to cut back on the Chasms and get some more Swamps in there. You don't have to cut all of the Chasms if you don't want to but you definitely do not want to be playing 4. I would opt for 1-2 at first and adjust the number from there after you've seen it in action a few times.
If you're still not convinced, think about it like this. An easy way for a Nykthos deck to win games is to make all its early land drops, curve out into a Gray Merchant and then close the game out with an Exsanguinate. An easy way for a Nykthos decks to lose games s to get stuck on a 1-2 mana and never cast a relevant spell. You don't need luck to win games when you're emploing a powerful, linear, consistent strategy. You just need a solid, average draw. Chasm + Nykthos, in multiples, lead to very awkward/bad/unplayble draws.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Off the top of my head, I would build:
3x Leechridden Swamp
21x Swamp
10 Sorceries
4x Buried Alive
4x Mutilate
2x Exsanguinate
2x Strands of Night
2x Diabolic Servitude
22 Creatures
2x Sheodred, Whispering One
2x Kokusho, the Evening Star
2x Griselbrand
2x Sephulchral Primordial
3x Corpse Conniseur
3x Grey Merchant of Asphodel
4x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Stinkweed Imp
The problem I have is that there just so much extra cards there that I feel it's better to just go Coffers and/or Crypt Ghast and windmill slam creatures onto the board without jumping through hoops. Perhaps Reanimation is only a good 1v1 strategy and hence your non-inclusion? If so, perhaps a mention. Or is it more of a garnish to your deck? Don't make them the focus, but a single copy of Strands of Night is good.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
So, let's assume that I stick to my guns and not jam 20 dollar cards in my decks. What do I do? Tell people to play 4x Oona's Prowler, 4x Buried Alive and just hope to get there? Tell them to dick around with tutor chains such as Beseech the Queen for Buried Alive into Animate Dead? Why? It's now turn 5; why not just cast Worn Powerstone on turn 3 (or Crypt Ghast or Cabal Coffers or whatever) and hardcast those things? What happens when that creature then dies? Do you just lose the game? Or do I tell people to play Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and ensure that no one has fun?
Basically there a ton of reasons why I don't like talking about straight Reanimator. I am very much for playing singleton recursive engines such as Diabolic Servitude but in general I don't see a reason to tell people to play turn 4 Reanimator decks given that you can just hardcast your fatties at that stage of the game. So yes, in that sense you hit the nail on the head with your last statement. In general I think that it's just much better to play a rampy Control deck with sweep finishers that plays a few revival tools. Play Buried Alive if you want, the card is gas, but don't worry about making it your plan A for every game.
What I will say is that it's inexcusable for me to not have something listed. In fact, the vast majority of the decks in my guide are outdated pieces of crap. Half of the guide is an outdated piece of crap. That's why I rarely reply to this thread any more. It bothers me. My guides frustrate me to no end because I can't make them good. I know that they're bad and I keep trying to fix them but I can never get them to be what I want.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold