So more I read the guides the more I realize that I may have misjudged your intention. At first I thought you want to provide lists with the best card choices but now I think it's more provide suggestions to actually start to build multiplayer decks in the first place. You cover a lot of stuff in your guide and I agree with Xyx that it is in parts very wordy, but that could only be solved by changing to overall structure of the guides.
I don't know what I'm trying to accomplish at this point. I kinda want to show people how to build decks but at the same time I kinda like having lists around. Lists are very helpful for someone like me.
What I was missing in this guide is a discussion how blue changes in multiplayer. In 1:1 land blue has often a very reactive play style due to counterspells and tempo oriented play style due to short term answers. In multiplayer it's more swim with the flow style due to very flexible cards like Twincast, Bribery, Phantasmal Image, Gilded Drake and so on. Many multiplayer beginner have problems with that transition.
I kinda touch on this in my synergies and strategies section. Perhaps I need something that covers the color's strengths in multiplayer.
Another point is extra turns. This is the most insane win con blue has in multiplayer. If you can chain extra turns you most probably win the game. It doesn't need to be endless combos just 3-5 in a row, and a good build deck is so far ahead it can play archenemy from this point on.
Won't show up in the guide at any point. Ever. I'm vehemently opposed to time sinks that cause 1 player to hold the table up for unreasonably long periods of time. It's why you'll basically never see me pitch cards like Sylvan Library and Sensei's Divining Top. I would never encourage playing cards and decks that had a "Solitaire" mode in which it played with itself for significant periods of time. That isn't fun for anyone but you. I'm not opposed to Combo, Control, Prison, etc. decks in the slightest but I absolutely despise any deck that takes an eternity to let the next person play. I don't give a rat's ass about how fun or fair it is either. I might be biased because I play in huge FFA games but I mean I don't see how anyone could enjoy sitting at a 4 player game (or whatever) in which 1 person takes 6 extra turns throughout the game or something.
Now, let's be clear about something. I'm not bashing people who play with time sinks. I don't care what people play at all. It's of no concern to me. That being said, I can decide what I do and do not promote in these guides. They're mine and I can do whatever I want with them. I would personally feel bad if someone started with playing with tons of Time Walk effects because of something said by me. That would be a failure in my eyes. So yeah, you'll basically never see anything about mass Time Walks written by me. I do not encourage playing those kinds of cards at all. It has nothing to do with how good or bad they are; it has everything to do with keeping big games moving along.
I don't feel hypocritical about this either. Exsanguinate may end games but at least it ends them quickly. Every game needs to have a beginning and an end and I personally (it's an opinion, please keep that in mind) don't see the problem in promoting cards like Insurrection that do it in a short time-frame. It means you get to start the next one that much sooner. What I hate seeing are decks that "win" but take forever to do it. Basically Blue decks. You know, ones that will take extra turns and spin Tops for 45 minutes before winning. That is not my idea of a fun game of Magic. That's like having your fingernails pulled out one a time. I'm fine with quick shots to the head because at least everyone got to sit around, draw cards and cast spells. That's much better than sitting around and watching another guy do it.
Whether people agree or disagree with this point of view is of little concern to me. I've been playing in different metas for about 12 years now and I can truthfully say that the only time that games become "unfun" for myself and others is when someone is significantly stifling the flow of the game. We call them "floodgates." Sometimes it's just someone who just plain can't play very quickly, we're usually fine with that (we all sucked at some point, you gotta play to get better) but it does become a bit of an issue when someone "who knows better" is really holding back the game. I don't want to another meta to get stuck with some "floodgates" because of me. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
The first one is not just biggest power and toughness but actually what survives and wins games. Due to the fact that 5+ player struggle for the pole position you can never be sure that your game plan produces the biggest threat, so decks have at least some kind of mass removal. To come back to your list. The first halve of your creatures fails to produce big threats, the second half dies to the most played form of removal in multiplayer. Therefore the card list does not feature good multiplayer cards.
If it's one thing I've learned it's to not engage in pointless theoretical debates with people over the Internet. Virtually every Blue creature in existence is bad using the logic that you've provided. I don't care about absolute truths. I care about general rules of thumb. Frost Titan is a solid creature that you will generally be happy to play. The Sphinx is always going to be a 4 power flier for 4 and sometimes will have a very powerful and relevant ability. Hunted Phantasm isn't the biggest 3 drop in existence but it's typically "big enough" and it often buys you a friend. If you think that this type of advice is pointless that's fine. I don't care about trying to meet impossible high standards of only playing arbitrarily large or immortal creatures. I'm trying to give generically useful advice for anyone who's looking for it.
Still, if you want to provide us with a list of incredibly large and resilient Blue creatures, by all means. Remember, it must be the biggest thing played for its cost and it must survive Wraths. These are the criteria that you've decided upon after all. If your opinion has any real-world merit then said creatures should exist. Your argument is nonsensical otherwise. You're telling me to tell people to play creatures that don't exist at that point. Again, I don't care about pointless theoretical discussions that have no basis in reality. Jenny needs a creature curve TODAY. She doesn't need creatures that will be printed 20 years from now. Give me a list of creatures that I can show her in Blue that survive Wraths and that are huge for their cost.
But why on earth are you promoting other prison style decks like Stax.dec or Contamination. Even if they are only soft looks.
I gave you my metric. A Stax deck doesn't take forever to take its turns. It's usually doing something to cheat a prison effect and passing the turn. If you want to know where the disconnect is it's that I don't try and stop people from winning matches. Magic is a broken game and sometimes you need to play broken decks to beat the broken decks of other players. That sometimes means going turn 2 Reassembling Skeleton into a turn 3 Contamination.
I hope that everyone out there can appreciate the fact that sometimes people want to build and play with broken decks. We love whipping out Legacy-level combos and killing each other on turn 2 every now and then. Why the heck not? The only difference is that, all things being equal, I'd rather promote decks that at least let other people take turns. I don't really care what people do on those turns as long as the game isn't just 7 people waiting for 1 to finish his long-ass bloody turn. This is where the confusion lies in my mind. I'm not trying to police the world. When my meta wants to play fair decks we play fair decks. If we want to play aggro decks we play aggro decks. If we want to play broken decks we play broken decks. We moderate ourselves to keep things fun and interesting for everyone. If we have newbs then most of us are going to whip up some highlander concoction or provide them decks to use if they want. The point is that some % of the time you need that stupidly strong deck that "wins the game" on turn 3. When you do play Contamination it should basically be "you win the game" spell anyways so I mean it should just trigger concessions regardless.
Cards like Tanglewire slow down the game so much its not funny, especially if combined with cards like Goblin Welder .
I'm pretty sure I tell people to not play with Tangle Wire in my Black guide. Not sure what the Red one says. I doubt I have a TW deck listed there either. I don't think that I actually ever promote that card. I definitely don't promote Winter Orb and such either.
I promote cards like Contamination and Smokestack because they usually create a game state where people can concede without too much hesitation. Again, people need to understand that I'm not trying to moderate the world and I'm not trying to stop people from winning games. It's going to happen whether I intervene or not. I just prefer decks that give people the opportunity to A) take their turns and B) concede. Taking infinite turns should trigger concessions. A turn 2-3 Smokestack with fuel to supply it should do the same thing after a few turns. Playing a Time Stretch every other turn doesn't.
Also cards like Upheaval are very problematic on this scale because in a lot of cases the Upheaval must be played as an Evacuation and doesn't provide a fast route to winning the game but only slows it down. I know their is always the dilemma of where is the line when persistent control becomes a soft look and when is it okay, but shunning extra turns and promoting prison style control decks seems not the right balance.
I don't think I promote Upheaval anywhere in the guide. I certainly list cards such as it and Sunder but that's not saying much. My lists are used for many things, many of which are personal endeavors. Cards that I promote are things like Clones and Rhystic Study. These are always going to be good cards. Still, I'm going to list unfun ones like Sunder even if I don't plug a deck for it.
Puh where to start. I hope I don't come here to strong but in your guides you teach some fundamental characteristic of multiplayer games like 1:1 removal is bad and people should play mass removal if in need. Further you promote resilient creatures which are really difficult to beat like Wurmcoil Engine. So far so good but where you fail in my opinion, is in applying these format defining fundamentals to your own card lists. Like you said multiplayer is a maelstrom of mass removal and big threats. Therefore every deck must be prepared for it.
Not everyone plays with mass removal and not everyone plays with the best threats. People post lists here every day and a huge % of them post decks with no mass removal and plenty of small creatures. There are some people who "know better" and who play with "stronger" cards but that's not an absolute truth. I've played in enough metas with enough people to know that people are always pulling out whacky and weak decks. Every one does not, in fact, have to prepare for those kinds of cards.
This, again, is simply an instance of you creating an unrealistic representation of the real world. You're using a "what if" argument that assumes that everyone is perfectly rational and is only playing to maximize their overall win%. That's something that I try to do but I can guarantee you that I'm the exception and not the norm. It's pointless consideration to make in that sense because it's unrealistic. That's not how multiplayer Magic is played out in the real world. If you need proof simply peruse the hundreds of decks posted here on the forums. People happily play tons of spot removal and weak creatures in their lists. If you're arguing otherwise then you're objectively wrong. No one is arguing that some% of the time people are playing the best cards and ton of Wraths, but it's incredibly easy to find many more lists that don't.
Another point is, that you mistake properties a deck should have with card properties. For example a multiplayer deck should be resilient to be able to fight the attrition war by providing a constant stream of threats and answers. The most common way to achieve that, is lots and lots of card draw, supported by recursion or tutor engines. Its a misconception that though to kill creature lead to resilient multiplayer decks, because it's more a survival of the fittest. Over time only the working removal will survive and the hard to kill property will be useless. If Rout gets bad, because creatures with Persist/undying and so on survive, but Hallowed Burial does the job, than most players will transition towards the burial.
Umm... no kidding? Have you read the stuff that's actually written in my guides? Let's look at the first thing that I say in the Multiplayer Staples section:
"The most important thing that you'll want to acquire are sets of draw spells and/or engines that will ensure that you'll always have action going on in your games. Rhystic Study is my personal favorite, with Mystic Remora following close behind. The Remora won't work for everyone since every meta is different, but I'd be hard-pressed to find someone who couldn't field in their ~6 player games. Beyond that, your best bets are things like Thirst for Knowledge, Fact or Fiction, Jace's Ingenuity and Opportunity. Instant speed draw spells tend to be much more valuable than Sorcery speed ones, especially in multiplayer. Players will often pounce on weakness, and tapping out to do "nothing" certainly qualifies."
That's literally the first point of discussion.
Go look at my Black guide. Now check out the Green one. What do I say in my deck construction tips? I talk about how draw and recursion are important needs. When discussing creatures I put no emphasis at all on recursive creatures unless they're exceptionally strong. For example, my Black guide references Reassembling Skeleton and Stinkweed Imp a lot in the context of cards that are resilient to removal. Why? Because Lashwrithe and Bonehoard turn them both into huge threats and cards such as Helm of Possession and Attrition can always handle if if they aren't. If nothing else the Imp trades with anything. Still, I also take tons of of time to plug creatures such as Hunted Horror, Vampire Nighthawk and Phyrexian Obliterator. Everything that you're discussing here is stuff that I literally have written down in my guides. I haven't updated my Blue/White/Red ones yet but eventually they will. You're telling me to say stuff that I'm already saying. I don't get it.
Everyone plays fat dudes in multiplayer, because they are very cost efficient, considering the circumstance that you have to deal 40-60 damage to be able to win a multiplayer game, on average.
You're wrong. This, again, is just you speaking from a theoretical perspective. In an ideal world people would only play with threats that are large for their cost. We do not live in an ideal world. The Gruul deck near the top of the forums has Goblin Guide. The Black White deck has that 1/1 Lifelinker for 1. The Rebels deck probably has about 20 creatures with <=3 power. People play tons of small creatures even if it isn't optimal. I don't care about pointless theoretical discussions that have no basis in reality. What you're arguing here isn't how the world actually works.
So we are again in our little maelstrom. Only this time the fatties are competing and as we all know certain creatures survive better, and over time you have a field of Primeval Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, Kokusho, Consecrated Sphinx and so on. I'm not saying that everyone should only play those cards in their 6 mana slot, but that you have to compete against them.
I found this comment amusing. The other day you explained to us how you asked some newbs to read my initial paragraphs where I discuss this exact phenomenon. Here's the literal quote from my Black guide:
"4 and 6 CMC are the next thresholds that you should care about. I know that I'm skipping 5 but 5 and 7+ are just too awkwardly positioned in my mind. 4 is your first chance to cast an actual game-changer such as Lashwrithe, Mutilate, Phyrexian Obliterator, Syphon Mind, etc. If your deck doesn't have four to eight really good turn 4 plays then it better be slamming a Batterskull on turn 5 or something similar. You'll probably regret not having something if everyone else does otherwise. On that note, come prepared with at least four 6 CMC spells as well. You probably cannot beat Primeval Titan, Consecrated Sphinx, Wurmcoil Engine, etc. with some dorky 3-5 CMC creatures after all. More often than not you'll get crushed by some ginormous beast that creates infinite value for its owner. While I'm personally fond of playing up to eight 6+ drops, that should only be done if you do decide to roll with some ramp. Again, Worn Powerstone gets them out on turn 4 with a decent amount of consistency (every other game or so), so you can often cut back on 4 drops and focus on 6 drops if you with to pursue that strategy. Everyone should be doing wild and crazy things, but hey, there's a good chance that whipping out Kokusho, the Evening Stars, Massacre Wurms, Wurmcoil Engines, etc. every few turns will match it fairly evenly."
The Green one has something similar written. Check it out if you need proof.
Anyways, you said that the newbs found it pointless. Now here you are telling me to discuss it. Which is it? Again, everything that you're arguing is stuff that I'm already saying (and for good reason).
Frost Titan will lose this fight hard and it won't help to to make your deck more resilient because it just folds to mass removal and you won't have anything on the plus side ofter it is gone unlike the other examples.
Wurmcoil is like $10.00. Conq Sphinx is like 5. If you only list the SS tier cards with high price tags then you're basically alienating a huge % of your viewer base. Frost Titan isn't the best nor the cheapest creature ever printed but it's "relatively cheap" and "relative powerful" when compared to many reasonable alternatives. There are tons of metagames where any Titan, even Frosty, is perfectly fine at 6. They're often well above the curve as a matter of fact.
This card is actually a fine multiplayer card but it's not in the list of resilient creatures I was discussing.
That's a big problem. I don't think you understand the point of my lists. Like, I hope you realize that those cards are basically there because they have some unique or powerful effect. This is where you're really tripping up in my mind. You don't seem to appreciate the fact that Fleeting Image and Life from the Loam have a lot in common. In a vacuum neither card is particularly impressive. They don't do anything relevant or powerful after all. Still, let's say your Blue deck has Bonehoards or something. Like, maybe it has tons of pump and it just needs warm bodies. Suddenly cards like Image are somethings. Loam is the same way. It's a pretty terrible card in many Green decks but if you build with it in mind then you can do some completely absurd things. I like listing cool cards with unique attributes. They inspire me when I want to try new things or if I need creative ways to solve problems.
Like I said before you only have to meet your own standards.
I'm A) lazy and B) human. I routinely fail to meet my Standards when performing something. Everyone does. You're talking about me like I'm Deity incapable of fault. I most certainly am.
You cannot promote cards like Kokusho and ignore the effect of such cards on the format by giving an advice to play cards like Fleeting Image. And yes Kokusho and Co. are played by a lot of people.
Have you ever considered the idea that maybe the goal should be to pair the Image with Strata Scythe? What if you could blank all of the removal played by the Black deck and field equipment that make your creature really big? Why are you talking about it like I'm telling people to counter Kokopuffs with a 2/1 flier. I'm not. What I am doing is listing a creature that can shrug off most Wrath effects. Toss in some good equipment and suddenly the Control deck is having fits. You're thinking too linearly.
That exactly the super narrow point of view you show sometimes. You don't have to play such creatures. Hard to kill or recurring creatures are more the thing of black and green. Blue like any other color gains deck resilience by drawing cards. Therefore creatures like Muldrifter, Consecrated Sphinx, Sphinx of Lost Truths, Sphinx of Magosi or Sphinx of Uthuun give better deck resilience in blue than Argent Sphinx. Some of them can even compete against the common 6/6 dude from other colors. But thats most of the time not the way blue fights. Like i said in a post before blue gains parity/advantage not by destroying creatures or playing bigger ones but by copying or stealing them from it's opponents.
... really? Really? Let's quote my creature curve section. Let's look at what cards I tell people to play:
One comment that I constantly receive is that people play in metas where curving out with warm bodies is important to them/vital to their survival. It doesn't matter how big or small the creature is, they simply refuse to play without a fair number of early drops to durdle around and dissuade attackers. While I typically disagree with that mindset, and would rather take a bit of damage early on than play weak cards, I respect the fact that not everyone will agree with that philosophy. In this section, I'll post "cheap" (CMC wise) creatures that can fill your curve, but who also work fairly well in multiplayer. Some will be defensive; some will be offensive, and others a bit of both. This is basically the Coal's Notes of "what to play if anything." While I don't recommend playing some of these cards in general, I'd rather see people put Cosi's Trickster in their decks than Flying Men.
This is word-for-word what I have written. Do you see Fleeting Image anywhere? No, you don't. Do you see Conq Sphinx and Clones and Mulldrifter and all of that good ****? Yes, you do. Everything that you've just explained is exactly what I'm already saying. Beyond that all I can say is that you're very good at listing expensive creatures that cost 5+ mana. Sphinx of Uthuun is super but how does that help you beat a Goblin deck that's killing you on turn 4? Have you ever stopped and considered the possibility that Argent Sphinx is just plain one of Blue's biggest creatures at that CMC cost? I mean, it's basically that or a Clone effect. You can't just jam 5+ drops in your decks and expect to get there in every meta. You will need early plays. Like it or not that sometimes means playing big-ish and resilient-ish creatures.
My point is that you should not give Jenny a bad advice. If blue has no resilient creatures which can compete against commonly played threats/answers than don't write down the bad ones. You are sometimes so much focused on applying a fixed outline on every color that you miss the big picture and that is giving good advice by showing the overall good cards. Believe me the bad ones are found by every player alone.
This, again, is just you reading my lists and assuming that I'm saying "every creature listed here is playable in everything." When you read the actual section that discusses what creatures you should be playing in general then you'll see the "normal" ones that you can reasonable expect to be facing down.
So if I get this strait. When a player takes 15 min with extra turns its bad (which it is) because everyone else has to wait 15 min but if he locks everyone out so they cannot play for 15 min it's not.
Umm... sure? If people aren't conceding to an on-board "win" then that's their own fault lol. If the game isn't just over then those 15 minutes are, in my opinion, an actual game of Magic. Like, what am I missing here? Taking extra turns leaves a ton of uncertainty unless you can show something that allows you to take an unlimited number of them. It's hard to concede when you don't know how deep the player will go. With Prison decks it's easy. If they Contamination or Smokestack lock you out then you either have outs or you don't. If no one does then you just move on to the next game. It's easy because the win is on-board. There's no uncertainty. If there is it's because people have outs at which point you're playing an actual game of Magic.
It doesn't matter why people have to "skip" their turn or if they can at least draw a card. The point is if they can play the game and interact or are locked out by another player. Either this circumstance is bad in terms of don't use it or it is not.
I don't agree. If you can't interact then you concede because you've lost. If you can interact then it's still a game of Magic. It seems very cut and dry to me.
Thats totally fine with me but why on earth are you policing extra turns (and some other cards/strategies if I understand you correctly) if every group should find their way and your only goal is to find good cards for multiplayer. I would be okay either way, either list every broken/anti social strategies or leave out the most unfun ones. But this double standard bugs me.
Put your money where your mouth is and show us an actual quote of me policing extra turn effects in the guide itself. If you're not making this up it should be very easy to provide an instance of me doing it. Otherwise you're just a liar who's literally making stuff up. I want to know which it is. Show the world an actual quote of mine.
@Moderator: How, then, do I handle someone like this? He's making claims about me saying X but at the same time is refusing to provide actual quotes. He's fabricating lies in an attempt to wrongfully discredit me. Should I simply report that type of post for flaming? How am I not supposed to take libel personally? Why wouldn't it upset me? Would it not upset you if someone went on a public forum and made falsified claims about you? There's a reason why it's illegal.
I'm still waiting for my quote. Show me where I discuss extra turn effects and attempt to police them. I'm not letting this go. You're making these claims against me and I'm calling you out on them. If they're legitimate you should be able to prove it.
If you really think that the majority of the reader base will never expect a field of such cards, why you are discussing such a meta? As a reader, I expect from such statements like above, that every card in your list is not such a dorky card.
I maintain that your standards are impossibly high. Decks need curves that start before turn 5. If your argument is that people should just never play creatures that can't beat Wurmcoil Engine 1v1 then you're basically saying that 99.99999% of all creatures are unplayable. That isn't true in reality. You have to play with weakish early drops or else you will just die.
You said, It isn't in my list because i don't like them. But in your guide/discussion you say, I will list any card because I don't want to police anyone.
Quote me. This is getting really old. Show me actual quotes. I'm tired of having you put words in my mouth. If you're going to make claims about somethat I say, show a relevant quote. I'm through with this complete fabrication. It's nothing but a senseless personal attack on me. I'm still waiting for you to quote something that I say that can be considered "policing" of extra turn effects.
Again it's not about my opinion. I'm just pointing at huge inconsistencies in your arguments and discussion.
Except it's all fluff and no substance. You say that I list small dorky creatures. Provide better alternatives. You say that I police extra turn effects. Quote me on it. You say that in my guide I have something written along the lines of "I will list any card." Quote it.
Pending staff discussion I lock the thread, and will do so with any and all other threads where this kind of "you said [...]" - "No I didn't!" - "Yes, you did!" - "No" - "Yes" - "No!" conversation pops up.
edit: re-opened.
if you guys want to continue discussing the Guide, remain on the topic of the Guide. For more personal exchanges, there's other places.
Wondering if there is ever going to be an update to the Sample Decklists? I very much enjoy these articles and would like to see the Blue one fleshed out
Wondering if there is ever going to be an update to the Sample Decklists? I very much enjoy these articles and would like to see the Blue one fleshed out
All the guides are massively outdated and incomplete. I'll get on it... eventually :3.
Your guides are great reads. I would enjoy an update as well up to and including Theros!
I know it's a lot of work for you, as well as defending what you have written, but it's great info for people who want to play MP. I am pretty sure most people have taken away a ton of knowledge from these guides
Your guides are great reads. I would enjoy an update as well up to and including Theros!
I know it's a lot of work for you, as well as defending what you have written, but it's great info for people who want to play MP. I am pretty sure most people have taken away a ton of knowledge from these guides
That's the hope :). Hopefully I can find some time to update these things up to Theros in the near future.
I was considering Counterbalance for my Cube (would never run it in Constructed as I kinda like having friends). As it demands a significant price tag, I thought I'd get some outside opinion on the card. Any thoughts?
Normally I would consider $16 outwith the reach of my budget, but I'm coming up with ways to strengthen Blue; at the same time I have two players in my playgroup who approach counterspells with an almost diabolic glee.
I strongly recommend against it. First of all, CMCs tend to be far too varied in Cube in order to extract value from the card. This isn't Legacy where most decks start at 1 and end at 3. People are probably going to curve straight up to 7 and even if you manage to snag a spell every now and then you're basically just praying for significant value. Moreover, the card draws hate without actually improving your board position. This is obviously acceptable for powerful cards but a naked CB is realistically very weak yet it will (usually) still draw an insane amount of aggro. Casting weak cards that piss people off is a bad place to be because it makes for bad player experiences. Getting ganged-up on and losing for casting bad, do-nothing cards is going to lead to negative experiences for the people who draft the card. Still, people are somewhat forced to gang-up on you if they want to resolve their spells in peace. A blind CB shouldn't instill the fear the God into people, and it usually doesn't, but still something annoying that has to sit in the back on their minds. Given that Blue isn't the most defensive color to begin with it usually puts you in a rough position. In addition, the card eats a lot of time but not in the way that people are probably thinking. The act of flipping the top card of your library isn't especially time consuming but people who only consider that aren't looking at the big picture. When there's a CB in play people are just plain going to cast fewer spells (thus extending the game). Not only that, but people will spend more time thinking about whether or not to deploy them in the first place. Whereas you would never think twice about casting Harmonize (or whatever) normally when a CB's in play you're going to critically assess the pros and cons more carefully. Furthermore, support spells such as Brainstorm lose a lot of their luster in Limited environments when you cannot support them as reliably. Whereas Preordain and Impulse are always going to make the cut it's possible for Brainstorm to be too weak to maindeck which usually means that people won't go out of their way to draft the card highly. Finally, and most importantly, under no circumstances do I encourage adding Sensei's Divining Top to your Cube. I don't care about combos, synergies, power-level, nothing. None of that interests me in the slightest. What makes the card completely unplayable (again, this is all personal opinion) is that hemorrhages time like nothing else. Upkeep Top, Fetch Top, tutor Top, EOT Top, it never ends. Multiplayer games already take long enough as is without having one player take an extra 2 minutes per circuit to dick around doing nothing. Everyone likes the card Top, it gets first picked and maindecked 100% of the time, but I still think that it's among the worst cards that you could possibly leave in your Cube.
I'm normally quite a good judge of the quality of cards but I think I completely lost the ball on this one. Cheers!
Again, take everything that I say wit ha grain of salt. Time management is very important to someone like me who plays in big 8 player games but it could easily be meaningless for you. Also, as people have told me time and time before, sometimes it helps just to talk it out with someone else. You don't have to agree with them nor heed their advice but sometimes it helps to have your suspicions confirmed/denied. If nothing else you get to make a more informed decision so better or worse you can put more trust in it.
Incidentally I loathe Top. I use Crystal Ball sometimes when I want to give players more library manipulation in colourless. It's much weaker, but it's generally better for the game (and my budget).
Ball is fine. I can live with someone Scrying 2 once per circuit. The card isn't bonkers by any means, we're not talking about a card that will go in the first 5 picks, and it's certainly not "free" to maindeck the thing.
Any love for Curse of the Swine? It's kind of an MVP in my meta. Blanks the best X threats on the board, hits regenerators, indestructibles, threatening evaders, pesky utility critters... It's kind of like a plague wind for relevant creatures.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Here are the little self-imposed guidelines I'm working with for the multiplayer decks I've been building:
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!
Thanks for the updated guide. The multicolored sample decklists are a very welcome addition. One question about your Izzet Burn build: why the inclusion of Scab-Clan Berserker? Is it purely to punish opponents that try to disrupt you with counter-magic or removal? Or is there another angle I'm not seeing?
I know there are a ton of 4 CC clone effects, but one I didn't see on your list that is quite fun is Sakashima's Student. It can kill out of nowhere and can work with blink/bounce archetypes. Once again thanks for the guide
I know there are a ton of 4 CC clone effects, but one I didn't see on your list that is quite fun is Sakashima's Student. It can kill out of nowhere and can work with blink/bounce archetypes. Once again thanks for the guide
I didn't list a lot of the more marginal Clones and I'm not quite sure where to come down on the Student. It's substantially weaker than things like Phyrexian Metamorph and Clever Impersonator but you're correct that it can randomly "get people" so to speak.
Also, I'm still looking for comments/concerns/outbursts about the overall format of the guide. I'm sure that there's plenty of things that I could be doing better.
I don't know what I'm trying to accomplish at this point. I kinda want to show people how to build decks but at the same time I kinda like having lists around. Lists are very helpful for someone like me.
I kinda touch on this in my synergies and strategies section. Perhaps I need something that covers the color's strengths in multiplayer.
Won't show up in the guide at any point. Ever. I'm vehemently opposed to time sinks that cause 1 player to hold the table up for unreasonably long periods of time. It's why you'll basically never see me pitch cards like Sylvan Library and Sensei's Divining Top. I would never encourage playing cards and decks that had a "Solitaire" mode in which it played with itself for significant periods of time. That isn't fun for anyone but you. I'm not opposed to Combo, Control, Prison, etc. decks in the slightest but I absolutely despise any deck that takes an eternity to let the next person play. I don't give a rat's ass about how fun or fair it is either. I might be biased because I play in huge FFA games but I mean I don't see how anyone could enjoy sitting at a 4 player game (or whatever) in which 1 person takes 6 extra turns throughout the game or something.
Now, let's be clear about something. I'm not bashing people who play with time sinks. I don't care what people play at all. It's of no concern to me. That being said, I can decide what I do and do not promote in these guides. They're mine and I can do whatever I want with them. I would personally feel bad if someone started with playing with tons of Time Walk effects because of something said by me. That would be a failure in my eyes. So yeah, you'll basically never see anything about mass Time Walks written by me. I do not encourage playing those kinds of cards at all. It has nothing to do with how good or bad they are; it has everything to do with keeping big games moving along.
I don't feel hypocritical about this either. Exsanguinate may end games but at least it ends them quickly. Every game needs to have a beginning and an end and I personally (it's an opinion, please keep that in mind) don't see the problem in promoting cards like Insurrection that do it in a short time-frame. It means you get to start the next one that much sooner. What I hate seeing are decks that "win" but take forever to do it. Basically Blue decks. You know, ones that will take extra turns and spin Tops for 45 minutes before winning. That is not my idea of a fun game of Magic. That's like having your fingernails pulled out one a time. I'm fine with quick shots to the head because at least everyone got to sit around, draw cards and cast spells. That's much better than sitting around and watching another guy do it.
Whether people agree or disagree with this point of view is of little concern to me. I've been playing in different metas for about 12 years now and I can truthfully say that the only time that games become "unfun" for myself and others is when someone is significantly stifling the flow of the game. We call them "floodgates." Sometimes it's just someone who just plain can't play very quickly, we're usually fine with that (we all sucked at some point, you gotta play to get better) but it does become a bit of an issue when someone "who knows better" is really holding back the game. I don't want to another meta to get stuck with some "floodgates" because of me. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
If it's one thing I've learned it's to not engage in pointless theoretical debates with people over the Internet. Virtually every Blue creature in existence is bad using the logic that you've provided. I don't care about absolute truths. I care about general rules of thumb. Frost Titan is a solid creature that you will generally be happy to play. The Sphinx is always going to be a 4 power flier for 4 and sometimes will have a very powerful and relevant ability. Hunted Phantasm isn't the biggest 3 drop in existence but it's typically "big enough" and it often buys you a friend. If you think that this type of advice is pointless that's fine. I don't care about trying to meet impossible high standards of only playing arbitrarily large or immortal creatures. I'm trying to give generically useful advice for anyone who's looking for it.
Still, if you want to provide us with a list of incredibly large and resilient Blue creatures, by all means. Remember, it must be the biggest thing played for its cost and it must survive Wraths. These are the criteria that you've decided upon after all. If your opinion has any real-world merit then said creatures should exist. Your argument is nonsensical otherwise. You're telling me to tell people to play creatures that don't exist at that point. Again, I don't care about pointless theoretical discussions that have no basis in reality. Jenny needs a creature curve TODAY. She doesn't need creatures that will be printed 20 years from now. Give me a list of creatures that I can show her in Blue that survive Wraths and that are huge for their cost.
I gave you my metric. A Stax deck doesn't take forever to take its turns. It's usually doing something to cheat a prison effect and passing the turn. If you want to know where the disconnect is it's that I don't try and stop people from winning matches. Magic is a broken game and sometimes you need to play broken decks to beat the broken decks of other players. That sometimes means going turn 2 Reassembling Skeleton into a turn 3 Contamination.
I hope that everyone out there can appreciate the fact that sometimes people want to build and play with broken decks. We love whipping out Legacy-level combos and killing each other on turn 2 every now and then. Why the heck not? The only difference is that, all things being equal, I'd rather promote decks that at least let other people take turns. I don't really care what people do on those turns as long as the game isn't just 7 people waiting for 1 to finish his long-ass bloody turn. This is where the confusion lies in my mind. I'm not trying to police the world. When my meta wants to play fair decks we play fair decks. If we want to play aggro decks we play aggro decks. If we want to play broken decks we play broken decks. We moderate ourselves to keep things fun and interesting for everyone. If we have newbs then most of us are going to whip up some highlander concoction or provide them decks to use if they want. The point is that some % of the time you need that stupidly strong deck that "wins the game" on turn 3. When you do play Contamination it should basically be "you win the game" spell anyways so I mean it should just trigger concessions regardless.
I'm pretty sure I tell people to not play with Tangle Wire in my Black guide. Not sure what the Red one says. I doubt I have a TW deck listed there either. I don't think that I actually ever promote that card. I definitely don't promote Winter Orb and such either.
I promote cards like Contamination and Smokestack because they usually create a game state where people can concede without too much hesitation. Again, people need to understand that I'm not trying to moderate the world and I'm not trying to stop people from winning games. It's going to happen whether I intervene or not. I just prefer decks that give people the opportunity to A) take their turns and B) concede. Taking infinite turns should trigger concessions. A turn 2-3 Smokestack with fuel to supply it should do the same thing after a few turns. Playing a Time Stretch every other turn doesn't.
I don't think I promote Upheaval anywhere in the guide. I certainly list cards such as it and Sunder but that's not saying much. My lists are used for many things, many of which are personal endeavors. Cards that I promote are things like Clones and Rhystic Study. These are always going to be good cards. Still, I'm going to list unfun ones like Sunder even if I don't plug a deck for it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Not everyone plays with mass removal and not everyone plays with the best threats. People post lists here every day and a huge % of them post decks with no mass removal and plenty of small creatures. There are some people who "know better" and who play with "stronger" cards but that's not an absolute truth. I've played in enough metas with enough people to know that people are always pulling out whacky and weak decks. Every one does not, in fact, have to prepare for those kinds of cards.
This, again, is simply an instance of you creating an unrealistic representation of the real world. You're using a "what if" argument that assumes that everyone is perfectly rational and is only playing to maximize their overall win%. That's something that I try to do but I can guarantee you that I'm the exception and not the norm. It's pointless consideration to make in that sense because it's unrealistic. That's not how multiplayer Magic is played out in the real world. If you need proof simply peruse the hundreds of decks posted here on the forums. People happily play tons of spot removal and weak creatures in their lists. If you're arguing otherwise then you're objectively wrong. No one is arguing that some% of the time people are playing the best cards and ton of Wraths, but it's incredibly easy to find many more lists that don't.
Umm... no kidding? Have you read the stuff that's actually written in my guides? Let's look at the first thing that I say in the Multiplayer Staples section:
"The most important thing that you'll want to acquire are sets of draw spells and/or engines that will ensure that you'll always have action going on in your games. Rhystic Study is my personal favorite, with Mystic Remora following close behind. The Remora won't work for everyone since every meta is different, but I'd be hard-pressed to find someone who couldn't field in their ~6 player games. Beyond that, your best bets are things like Thirst for Knowledge, Fact or Fiction, Jace's Ingenuity and Opportunity. Instant speed draw spells tend to be much more valuable than Sorcery speed ones, especially in multiplayer. Players will often pounce on weakness, and tapping out to do "nothing" certainly qualifies."
That's literally the first point of discussion.
Go look at my Black guide. Now check out the Green one. What do I say in my deck construction tips? I talk about how draw and recursion are important needs. When discussing creatures I put no emphasis at all on recursive creatures unless they're exceptionally strong. For example, my Black guide references Reassembling Skeleton and Stinkweed Imp a lot in the context of cards that are resilient to removal. Why? Because Lashwrithe and Bonehoard turn them both into huge threats and cards such as Helm of Possession and Attrition can always handle if if they aren't. If nothing else the Imp trades with anything. Still, I also take tons of of time to plug creatures such as Hunted Horror, Vampire Nighthawk and Phyrexian Obliterator. Everything that you're discussing here is stuff that I literally have written down in my guides. I haven't updated my Blue/White/Red ones yet but eventually they will. You're telling me to say stuff that I'm already saying. I don't get it.
You're wrong. This, again, is just you speaking from a theoretical perspective. In an ideal world people would only play with threats that are large for their cost. We do not live in an ideal world. The Gruul deck near the top of the forums has Goblin Guide. The Black White deck has that 1/1 Lifelinker for 1. The Rebels deck probably has about 20 creatures with <=3 power. People play tons of small creatures even if it isn't optimal. I don't care about pointless theoretical discussions that have no basis in reality. What you're arguing here isn't how the world actually works.
I found this comment amusing. The other day you explained to us how you asked some newbs to read my initial paragraphs where I discuss this exact phenomenon. Here's the literal quote from my Black guide:
"4 and 6 CMC are the next thresholds that you should care about. I know that I'm skipping 5 but 5 and 7+ are just too awkwardly positioned in my mind. 4 is your first chance to cast an actual game-changer such as Lashwrithe, Mutilate, Phyrexian Obliterator, Syphon Mind, etc. If your deck doesn't have four to eight really good turn 4 plays then it better be slamming a Batterskull on turn 5 or something similar. You'll probably regret not having something if everyone else does otherwise. On that note, come prepared with at least four 6 CMC spells as well. You probably cannot beat Primeval Titan, Consecrated Sphinx, Wurmcoil Engine, etc. with some dorky 3-5 CMC creatures after all. More often than not you'll get crushed by some ginormous beast that creates infinite value for its owner. While I'm personally fond of playing up to eight 6+ drops, that should only be done if you do decide to roll with some ramp. Again, Worn Powerstone gets them out on turn 4 with a decent amount of consistency (every other game or so), so you can often cut back on 4 drops and focus on 6 drops if you with to pursue that strategy. Everyone should be doing wild and crazy things, but hey, there's a good chance that whipping out Kokusho, the Evening Stars, Massacre Wurms, Wurmcoil Engines, etc. every few turns will match it fairly evenly."
The Green one has something similar written. Check it out if you need proof.
Anyways, you said that the newbs found it pointless. Now here you are telling me to discuss it. Which is it? Again, everything that you're arguing is stuff that I'm already saying (and for good reason).
Wurmcoil is like $10.00. Conq Sphinx is like 5. If you only list the SS tier cards with high price tags then you're basically alienating a huge % of your viewer base. Frost Titan isn't the best nor the cheapest creature ever printed but it's "relatively cheap" and "relative powerful" when compared to many reasonable alternatives. There are tons of metagames where any Titan, even Frosty, is perfectly fine at 6. They're often well above the curve as a matter of fact.
That's a big problem. I don't think you understand the point of my lists. Like, I hope you realize that those cards are basically there because they have some unique or powerful effect. This is where you're really tripping up in my mind. You don't seem to appreciate the fact that Fleeting Image and Life from the Loam have a lot in common. In a vacuum neither card is particularly impressive. They don't do anything relevant or powerful after all. Still, let's say your Blue deck has Bonehoards or something. Like, maybe it has tons of pump and it just needs warm bodies. Suddenly cards like Image are somethings. Loam is the same way. It's a pretty terrible card in many Green decks but if you build with it in mind then you can do some completely absurd things. I like listing cool cards with unique attributes. They inspire me when I want to try new things or if I need creative ways to solve problems.
I'm A) lazy and B) human. I routinely fail to meet my Standards when performing something. Everyone does. You're talking about me like I'm Deity incapable of fault. I most certainly am.
Have you ever considered the idea that maybe the goal should be to pair the Image with Strata Scythe? What if you could blank all of the removal played by the Black deck and field equipment that make your creature really big? Why are you talking about it like I'm telling people to counter Kokopuffs with a 2/1 flier. I'm not. What I am doing is listing a creature that can shrug off most Wrath effects. Toss in some good equipment and suddenly the Control deck is having fits. You're thinking too linearly.
... really? Really? Let's quote my creature curve section. Let's look at what cards I tell people to play:
One comment that I constantly receive is that people play in metas where curving out with warm bodies is important to them/vital to their survival. It doesn't matter how big or small the creature is, they simply refuse to play without a fair number of early drops to durdle around and dissuade attackers. While I typically disagree with that mindset, and would rather take a bit of damage early on than play weak cards, I respect the fact that not everyone will agree with that philosophy. In this section, I'll post "cheap" (CMC wise) creatures that can fill your curve, but who also work fairly well in multiplayer. Some will be defensive; some will be offensive, and others a bit of both. This is basically the Coal's Notes of "what to play if anything." While I don't recommend playing some of these cards in general, I'd rather see people put Cosi's Trickster in their decks than Flying Men.
1 CMC
Cosi's Trickster
Enclave Cryptologist
Jace's Phantasm
Nephalia Smuggler
2 CMC
Phantasmal Image
Riptide Mangler
Augur of Bolas
Azure Mage, Jushi Apprentice, Keeper of the Mind
Coralhelm Commander: Even outside of merfolk decks this guy is a house.
Halimar Wavewatch
Lighthouse Chronologist
Ludevic's Test Subject
Mindshrieker
Merfolk Looter
Snapcaster Mage
Vedalken Mastermind
3 CMC
Callous Oppressor
Cryptoplasm
Dominating Licid
Hunted Phantasm
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Echo Mage
Fettergeist
Grand Architect
Illusory Angel
4 CMC
Clone, Phyrexian Metamorph, Sakashima the Impostor
Glen Elendra Archmage: Combos well with Sage of Fables but ultimately does a great job of stalling the action.
Talrand, Sky Summoner
Talrand's Invocation
Aura Thief
Chronozoa, Argent Sphinx
Master Transmuter
Anthroplasm
5 CMC
Aeon Chronicler
Beguiler of Wills
Body Double
Ixidron
Magus of the Future
Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Mulldrifter
Murder of Crows
Sturmgeist
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
6+ CMC
Consecrated Sphinx
Deadeye Navigator
Frost Titan
Arcanis the Omnipotent
Draining Whelk
Keiga, the Tide Star
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Guile
Geralf's Mindcrusher
Phyrexian Ingester
Sphinx of Uthuun
Stormtide Leviathan
Deep-Sea Kraken
This is word-for-word what I have written. Do you see Fleeting Image anywhere? No, you don't. Do you see Conq Sphinx and Clones and Mulldrifter and all of that good ****? Yes, you do. Everything that you've just explained is exactly what I'm already saying. Beyond that all I can say is that you're very good at listing expensive creatures that cost 5+ mana. Sphinx of Uthuun is super but how does that help you beat a Goblin deck that's killing you on turn 4? Have you ever stopped and considered the possibility that Argent Sphinx is just plain one of Blue's biggest creatures at that CMC cost? I mean, it's basically that or a Clone effect. You can't just jam 5+ drops in your decks and expect to get there in every meta. You will need early plays. Like it or not that sometimes means playing big-ish and resilient-ish creatures.
This, again, is just you reading my lists and assuming that I'm saying "every creature listed here is playable in everything." When you read the actual section that discusses what creatures you should be playing in general then you'll see the "normal" ones that you can reasonable expect to be facing down.
Umm... sure? If people aren't conceding to an on-board "win" then that's their own fault lol. If the game isn't just over then those 15 minutes are, in my opinion, an actual game of Magic. Like, what am I missing here? Taking extra turns leaves a ton of uncertainty unless you can show something that allows you to take an unlimited number of them. It's hard to concede when you don't know how deep the player will go. With Prison decks it's easy. If they Contamination or Smokestack lock you out then you either have outs or you don't. If no one does then you just move on to the next game. It's easy because the win is on-board. There's no uncertainty. If there is it's because people have outs at which point you're playing an actual game of Magic.
I don't agree. If you can't interact then you concede because you've lost. If you can interact then it's still a game of Magic. It seems very cut and dry to me.
Put your money where your mouth is and show us an actual quote of me policing extra turn effects in the guide itself. If you're not making this up it should be very easy to provide an instance of me doing it. Otherwise you're just a liar who's literally making stuff up. I want to know which it is. Show the world an actual quote of mine.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Thanks to GR @ Yavin IV Studios for the signature!
I'm still waiting for my quote. Show me where I discuss extra turn effects and attempt to police them. I'm not letting this go. You're making these claims against me and I'm calling you out on them. If they're legitimate you should be able to prove it.
I maintain that your standards are impossibly high. Decks need curves that start before turn 5. If your argument is that people should just never play creatures that can't beat Wurmcoil Engine 1v1 then you're basically saying that 99.99999% of all creatures are unplayable. That isn't true in reality. You have to play with weakish early drops or else you will just die.
No it really can't.
Quote me. This is getting really old. Show me actual quotes. I'm tired of having you put words in my mouth. If you're going to make claims about somethat I say, show a relevant quote. I'm through with this complete fabrication. It's nothing but a senseless personal attack on me. I'm still waiting for you to quote something that I say that can be considered "policing" of extra turn effects.
Except it's all fluff and no substance. You say that I list small dorky creatures. Provide better alternatives. You say that I police extra turn effects. Quote me on it. You say that in my guide I have something written along the lines of "I will list any card." Quote it.
infraction for ignoring mod request.
blut
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
edit: re-opened.
if you guys want to continue discussing the Guide, remain on the topic of the Guide. For more personal exchanges, there's other places.
All the guides are massively outdated and incomplete. I'll get on it... eventually :3.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I know it's a lot of work for you, as well as defending what you have written, but it's great info for people who want to play MP. I am pretty sure most people have taken away a ton of knowledge from these guides
That's the hope :). Hopefully I can find some time to update these things up to Theros in the near future.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I strongly recommend against it. First of all, CMCs tend to be far too varied in Cube in order to extract value from the card. This isn't Legacy where most decks start at 1 and end at 3. People are probably going to curve straight up to 7 and even if you manage to snag a spell every now and then you're basically just praying for significant value. Moreover, the card draws hate without actually improving your board position. This is obviously acceptable for powerful cards but a naked CB is realistically very weak yet it will (usually) still draw an insane amount of aggro. Casting weak cards that piss people off is a bad place to be because it makes for bad player experiences. Getting ganged-up on and losing for casting bad, do-nothing cards is going to lead to negative experiences for the people who draft the card. Still, people are somewhat forced to gang-up on you if they want to resolve their spells in peace. A blind CB shouldn't instill the fear the God into people, and it usually doesn't, but still something annoying that has to sit in the back on their minds. Given that Blue isn't the most defensive color to begin with it usually puts you in a rough position. In addition, the card eats a lot of time but not in the way that people are probably thinking. The act of flipping the top card of your library isn't especially time consuming but people who only consider that aren't looking at the big picture. When there's a CB in play people are just plain going to cast fewer spells (thus extending the game). Not only that, but people will spend more time thinking about whether or not to deploy them in the first place. Whereas you would never think twice about casting Harmonize (or whatever) normally when a CB's in play you're going to critically assess the pros and cons more carefully. Furthermore, support spells such as Brainstorm lose a lot of their luster in Limited environments when you cannot support them as reliably. Whereas Preordain and Impulse are always going to make the cut it's possible for Brainstorm to be too weak to maindeck which usually means that people won't go out of their way to draft the card highly. Finally, and most importantly, under no circumstances do I encourage adding Sensei's Divining Top to your Cube. I don't care about combos, synergies, power-level, nothing. None of that interests me in the slightest. What makes the card completely unplayable (again, this is all personal opinion) is that hemorrhages time like nothing else. Upkeep Top, Fetch Top, tutor Top, EOT Top, it never ends. Multiplayer games already take long enough as is without having one player take an extra 2 minutes per circuit to dick around doing nothing. Everyone likes the card Top, it gets first picked and maindecked 100% of the time, but I still think that it's among the worst cards that you could possibly leave in your Cube.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Again, take everything that I say wit ha grain of salt. Time management is very important to someone like me who plays in big 8 player games but it could easily be meaningless for you. Also, as people have told me time and time before, sometimes it helps just to talk it out with someone else. You don't have to agree with them nor heed their advice but sometimes it helps to have your suspicions confirmed/denied. If nothing else you get to make a more informed decision so better or worse you can put more trust in it.
Ball is fine. I can live with someone Scrying 2 once per circuit. The card isn't bonkers by any means, we're not talking about a card that will go in the first 5 picks, and it's certainly not "free" to maindeck the thing.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
• Must be cheap. Total price tag < $100, preferably < $50. Ideally ~$30. No one card greater than about ~$6
• Format: Modern (makes getting the cards somewhat easier for the play group, and almost all my cards are Modern-legal)
• Must be relatively interesting in 1:1 games. I don't need to win against Splinter Twin, but I should be able to play duels now and then
• Avoid instant-win combos; they only serve to make me target #1, and then the deck is worse than useless because I get killed first, every time
• Must have a funny name!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I plan to add more, I just wanted one for each color before I posted this. By the end of this week I'll have at least 2 for each color.
I'm still working hard on this guide for now but I actually have a fair amount of the Green one written up as well.
I'm also going to have to touch up the White guide a bit because I'm not especially proud of some of the sections.
The Black guide is unfortunately going to be a ways away :<. Green should hopefully be up within the next 2 weeks.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My 450ish 1vs1 cube
My 450ish 1vs1 cube
I didn't list a lot of the more marginal Clones and I'm not quite sure where to come down on the Student. It's substantially weaker than things like Phyrexian Metamorph and Clever Impersonator but you're correct that it can randomly "get people" so to speak.
Also, I'm still looking for comments/concerns/outbursts about the overall format of the guide. I'm sure that there's plenty of things that I could be doing better.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold