I have been playing Danger Room a bit using 6 card hands, 9 max, 20 life, separate decks and graveyards.
I have added some utility lands to my list and they seem usefulfun. I have also added a few land destruction cards to balance them out a bit.
I added lots of morph creatures but it seems like it is nearly impossible to predict which one you are against because of the lack of mana restrictions. I am considering taking all of them out.
I also have not included many cards that simply win if you have a lot of mana, such as X damage spells and falter effects. I am fine with slow token generators. I am a big fan of long, grindy games.
I use lots of cards that are blatantly better/worse than other cards in the box. ("Noooo, I drew the damn Minotaur again!!")
All of the cards that seem a bit underpowered are likely in the box due to nostalgia purposes.
I am a big fan of random legends that have useful, but not overpowered, abilities.
What do you think about the general balance of the box?
Are there any cards that you think are too powerful?
If you see any cards that you think I should add, please let me know. Thanks!
edit: I decided to remove the morphs. They were simply too difficult to play around and also, if someone just wanted to pick up the box and play with me, they had no clue what they had to play around.
overall the box looks like it would be pretty fun.
there are a couple of unfair cards I would suggest removing:
cone of flame (I saw immediately) - and anything else that is a non-symmetrical sweeper should be removed. cards that generate 2-for-1's are ok, cards that "do" or "potentially" generate a 3-for-1 should be removed. (cards like mulldrifter are also questionable because although you aren't directly winning off a 2/2 flier, the potential cards you could draw could/should come into some consideration off that assumption.)
card draw should be removed - in my opinion, you should avoid card draw as everything you should be boxing is already a live draw (few cases...reclamation sage, etc.); generating card advantage/disadvantage should be determined as much as possible based on what happens on board; counter wars are "stack battles" are fine (sticks with draw triggers (ex:looter il-kor/azure mage are fine as previously stated because there is an opportunity for the player to react to his/her situation accordingly)
I do like the inclusion of unique legends, but be mindful of cards like: jaya ballard, task mage... turning cards into additional incinerates "is good" regardless and great++ when players reach parity or beyond post turn 10+, ultimately it depends on the average x/"y" value of your creatures.
there are several cards that should/could be added:
example creatures:
grim lavamancer
dawnglare invoker
wight of precinct six
illusory angel
imperious perfect
eternal witness
warden of the eye > izzet chronarch
entomber exarch > gravedigger
(i'm just rambling off a few, there are several other cards I would consider [which would also be upgrades])
spells:
duress
flame slash
ghostly flicker
predator's howl
hindering light
(several other better cards to explore you're still not listing)
...feel free to review my box in sig; I haven't updated it for awhile but there are a few references you may like.
Thanks for the suggestions! I agree that the 3 for 1 cards like Cone of Flame are fairly brutal. I will probably remove them after they provide a few blowouts.
I like all of the suggestions you have provided. I actually have a list of around 200 more cards I want to try once I figure out which cards in the current box aren't too fun. Interestingly enough, every card you listed is on my list.
I like your box a lot. There are a lot of random commons that I did not know about. Thanks for the help!
Do any of you know any other forums/threads where this format is discussed? I would love to find people to discuss this great format with but this forum seems a bit dead. Thanks!
I also updated my list a bit to hopefully make it more fun. Thanks for looking!
i looked @ your list & noticed that you run lands & other potential mana ramp cards, such as kiora's follower in your BB/DR & thats supposedly a no no based on how the variant's creator described the idea. not hacking on you, just saying. i also noticed in the blurb when looking @ your list that you were looking to cut 50 cards, if you removed the lands, that would be a big start. you should also remove any card that says, "permanent" on it b/c another defining theory behind the format is not getting mana screwed & things that mess w/ permanents, obviously could be used to screw over your opponent's mana. another thing thats supposed to be intrinsic to the format is the exclusion of mythics but even he broke his own rule, the last time i saw his list, but that could be another place you could look for cuts... i'm not saying that some mythics arent ok, but i would caution against using mythics such as Olivia Voldaren; i believe she's just too good in this format. those are just a few quick things i noticed when looking @ your list, but take those for what they are b/c i'm not fussing @ you over them, just merely making observations. i agree w/ you that its a great format & never go anywhere w/o my BB/DR
Thanks for the reply. I don't care too much about what the "creator of the format" was thinking when outlining the "rules". In my mind, I am not playing by any sort of predefined deck building rules.
I have found that having relevant utility lands adds a decent amount of gameplay and makes for more interesting decisions. If there are going to be utility lands, there needs to be a way to remove those lands. I made a point to not include too many ways to manipulate the mana (destroy target permanent) for that reason. That being said, I have no problem with being able to cut off an opponent's mana of a specific color if you are lucky enough to get 3 land destruction cards. In my mind, that adds creates interesting gameplay because obviously being able to knock out 1/5th of your opponent's draws is huge. So far, in my limited playing, it has not happened. If it seems to happen too often, I can simply remove some of the land destruction cards.
The Danger Room I link to in post #103 has been updated and is fixing to expand by another 50-60 cards.
We'll typically play one or two games of this before moving on to more traditional games or EDH. This format has the added bonus of letting my group encounter a variety of cards - some from literally before their birth!
@noshadowkick - I like the idea of adding more individual landwalkers, like what you've done. Wood Sage seems to unreliable in this format. I'll be looting more ideas presently.
@ krichaiushii we've actually found that danger room/battle box plays very well as a multiplayer format & we're starting to like it better then EDH for those purposes. it really lends itself to some crazy game states!
@d0rsal - Do y'all share libraries and graveyards or keep independent ones? If the latter, I recommend trying the former, because it even makes discarding cards a delicious choice when you know someone else can and will use anything you pitch against you.
But yes, with everyone effectively playing 5 colors, it makes for crazy plays and states, and depending on final card mix, leads to inspiring players to try different cards in their more traditional decks.
Do you have a list posted somewhere?
Cheers!
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@kirichaiushii - yes we use the same graveyard, makes flashback cards really interesting
i dont have a list posted anywhere, i just have a spreadsheet of it on my comp @ home, i never thought anybody would ever care to look @ my card choices for my battlebox/danger room. you want me to email you?
@d0rsal - check your pm for my email address; I would love to compare notes.
Flashback in a shared gy is a hoot; Spider Spawning did some work last night, especially with Soul Warden in play - I ended up with about 50 life off of it as well as a formidable army of spiders.
A Bonehoard took the game, which has me thinking that Delirium and Backlash would be good adds - they aren't removal, but they do make all of Lhurgoyf-esque creatures a more dangerous proposition.
The most entertaining play was a Twisted Justice netting 34 cards (off the Bonehoard's Germ).
Cheers!
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If in the area, check out Gamers N Geeks and Mini War Games in Mobile, Alabama and Underhill's Games in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio.
We played another round tonight and for the first time, we had to pull out another stack of cards for the deck itself, as a Decree of Pain drew many cards.
Has anyone else had the problem of the person going first always winning any two player games? I have had a serious problem with the player going first always being on the aggression and the draw player always being on the defensive. The exception seems to be when the draw side plays a sweeper or the play side makes a serious blunder or gets a couple of bad draws in a row.
Has anyone else had the problem of the person going first always winning any two player games? I have had a serious problem with the player going first always being on the aggression and the draw player always being on the defensive. The exception seems to be when the draw side plays a sweeper or the play side makes a serious blunder or gets a couple of bad draws in a row.
Give the person who goes second a lotus petal to start the game.
I use regular magic rules with 4 card starting hands with lots of board sweepers. I also don't have too many "dead draws" such as 2 drop creatures that are only good in the early game. I have found that the lotus petal at the start is enough to make the game competitive because the 2nd player usually plays a 3 or 4 drop first.
You may be able to find the answer to your problem by asking why the first player always wins and then adjusting the box to do something about it.
I am using ben stark's list (among others). Usually there seems to be a tide of momentum from the play side that is never quite stopped without a sweeper. I considered adding more sweepers but that is not always the sort of game I want. I appreciate the feedback. What are your thoughts on planeswalkers?
I haven't tried them in my box (I have a high power one in my signature and also a lesser powered one slightly stronger than Starks). I imagine even the weak ones would be totally busted. I thought about adding a few of the worst ones but I haven't yet.
I saw you had lands in your box, do you shuffle them in or are they dealt out with the pack of gates and basics? If you do put them in the box itself, does the person who plays them still get to tap them for mana? This is something I have put some thought into allowing.
I shuffle them into the box like all of the other cards. You can only play one land per turn, either from the land pile or from your hand. They can tap for mana like other lands if that is what they do. I also added a few land destruction spells that another level of game play. There are a few cards that have additional costs of sacrificing lands, which is also fun. I like the ability to use all of the possible resources.
One other idea I had was to have a "bonus" land pile on the side, which is basically a pile of all of the special lands. After you have played your 10 normal lands, you could then get one of the special lands randomly from the pile. I haven't experimented with it yet but it seems like it could be fun.
I played around with that a bit. Tempo loss is brutal in this format so cards like wolf-run play a bit differently but I like the variety gained from adding utility lands. I play with a more commander oriented box, start with 40 life a piece, replaced the lands with a counter i.e. hearthstone, and start the counter at four. I think I managed to balance play by having both players have a special turn with access to four mana. I also allow the player to exile a card from their hand during their draw phase and instead draw two cards. I found ben stark's box a bit dull and I wanted to get the decisions away from color management. I think this format is incredible.
anyone tried (or knows about) a battle box for multiplayer? I would love to have a battle box ready for quick plays, and to be the first experience of ppl joining my group, but every list I saw until now is oriented to 1 vs 1.
I will probably start to design my own MP Battle box, but I wanted to ask first
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I have added some utility lands to my list and they seem usefulfun. I have also added a few land destruction cards to balance them out a bit.
I added lots of morph creatures but it seems like it is nearly impossible to predict which one you are against because of the lack of mana restrictions. I am considering taking all of them out.
I also have not included many cards that simply win if you have a lot of mana, such as X damage spells and falter effects. I am fine with slow token generators. I am a big fan of long, grindy games.
I use lots of cards that are blatantly better/worse than other cards in the box. ("Noooo, I drew the damn Minotaur again!!")
All of the cards that seem a bit underpowered are likely in the box due to nostalgia purposes.
I am a big fan of random legends that have useful, but not overpowered, abilities.
What do you think about the general balance of the box?
Are there any cards that you think are too powerful?
If you see any cards that you think I should add, please let me know. Thanks!
edit: I decided to remove the morphs. They were simply too difficult to play around and also, if someone just wanted to pick up the box and play with me, they had no clue what they had to play around.
http://deckstats.net/decks/26222/159263-battle-box
http://deckstats.net/decks/26222/159263-battle-box
If you see anything that needs to be added, please let me know.
there are a couple of unfair cards I would suggest removing:
cone of flame (I saw immediately) - and anything else that is a non-symmetrical sweeper should be removed. cards that generate 2-for-1's are ok, cards that "do" or "potentially" generate a 3-for-1 should be removed. (cards like mulldrifter are also questionable because although you aren't directly winning off a 2/2 flier, the potential cards you could draw could/should come into some consideration off that assumption.)
card draw should be removed - in my opinion, you should avoid card draw as everything you should be boxing is already a live draw (few cases...reclamation sage, etc.); generating card advantage/disadvantage should be determined as much as possible based on what happens on board; counter wars are "stack battles" are fine (sticks with draw triggers (ex:looter il-kor/azure mage are fine as previously stated because there is an opportunity for the player to react to his/her situation accordingly)
I do like the inclusion of unique legends, but be mindful of cards like: jaya ballard, task mage... turning cards into additional incinerates "is good" regardless and great++ when players reach parity or beyond post turn 10+, ultimately it depends on the average x/"y" value of your creatures.
there are several cards that should/could be added:
example creatures:
grim lavamancer
dawnglare invoker
wight of precinct six
illusory angel
imperious perfect
eternal witness
warden of the eye > izzet chronarch
entomber exarch > gravedigger
(i'm just rambling off a few, there are several other cards I would consider [which would also be upgrades])
spells:
duress
flame slash
ghostly flicker
predator's howl
hindering light
(several other better cards to explore you're still not listing)
...feel free to review my box in sig; I haven't updated it for awhile but there are a few references you may like.
I like all of the suggestions you have provided. I actually have a list of around 200 more cards I want to try once I figure out which cards in the current box aren't too fun. Interestingly enough, every card you listed is on my list.
I like your box a lot. There are a lot of random commons that I did not know about. Thanks for the help!
http://deckstats.net/decks/26222/159263-battle-box
If you see anything that needs to be added, please let me know.
I also updated my list a bit to hopefully make it more fun. Thanks for looking!
http://deckstats.net/decks/26222/159263-battle-box
If you see anything that needs to be added, please let me know.
I have found that having relevant utility lands adds a decent amount of gameplay and makes for more interesting decisions. If there are going to be utility lands, there needs to be a way to remove those lands. I made a point to not include too many ways to manipulate the mana (destroy target permanent) for that reason. That being said, I have no problem with being able to cut off an opponent's mana of a specific color if you are lucky enough to get 3 land destruction cards. In my mind, that adds creates interesting gameplay because obviously being able to knock out 1/5th of your opponent's draws is huge. So far, in my limited playing, it has not happened. If it seems to happen too often, I can simply remove some of the land destruction cards.
http://deckstats.net/decks/26222/159263-battle-box
If you see anything that needs to be added, please let me know.
We'll typically play one or two games of this before moving on to more traditional games or EDH. This format has the added bonus of letting my group encounter a variety of cards - some from literally before their birth!
@noshadowkick - I like the idea of adding more individual landwalkers, like what you've done. Wood Sage seems to unreliable in this format. I'll be looting more ideas presently.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
But yes, with everyone effectively playing 5 colors, it makes for crazy plays and states, and depending on final card mix, leads to inspiring players to try different cards in their more traditional decks.
Do you have a list posted somewhere?
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
i dont have a list posted anywhere, i just have a spreadsheet of it on my comp @ home, i never thought anybody would ever care to look @ my card choices for my battlebox/danger room. you want me to email you?
Flashback in a shared gy is a hoot; Spider Spawning did some work last night, especially with Soul Warden in play - I ended up with about 50 life off of it as well as a formidable army of spiders.
A Bonehoard took the game, which has me thinking that Delirium and Backlash would be good adds - they aren't removal, but they do make all of Lhurgoyf-esque creatures a more dangerous proposition.
The most entertaining play was a Twisted Justice netting 34 cards (off the Bonehoard's Germ).
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
later
Spider Spawning was important again, but despite a 43/43 Spellheart Chimera taking the game, the most impressive card was Hallowed Spiritkeeper, with Unearth as a runner up.
My group now prefers opening the night with a round of this before moving on to more traditional formats.
Changes now are piecemeal, rather than sweeping, but I feel that its at the 90% mark.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Give the person who goes second a lotus petal to start the game.
http://deckstats.net/decks/26222/159263-battle-box
If you see anything that needs to be added, please let me know.
You may be able to find the answer to your problem by asking why the first player always wins and then adjusting the box to do something about it.
http://deckstats.net/decks/26222/159263-battle-box
If you see anything that needs to be added, please let me know.
http://deckstats.net/decks/26222/159263-battle-box
If you see anything that needs to be added, please let me know.
One other idea I had was to have a "bonus" land pile on the side, which is basically a pile of all of the special lands. After you have played your 10 normal lands, you could then get one of the special lands randomly from the pile. I haven't experimented with it yet but it seems like it could be fun.
http://deckstats.net/decks/26222/159263-battle-box
If you see anything that needs to be added, please let me know.
I will probably start to design my own MP Battle box, but I wanted to ask first