We’re sure everyone is tired of ideas for new formats posted practically on a day to day basis, but we’ve been working on this for some time and felt that, due to its design, this would be the most appropriate time to present it. The priority of this format is to avoid what we believe to be the primary pitfalls inherent to the nature of rotational and non-rotational formats. Also, this is absolutely NOT meant to be casual by any stretch as that too is a trap.
Format Pitfalls:
Rotational formats – By design are perpetuated via planned obsolescence. This forced change is meant to breed creativity and maintain interest through an ever evolving metagame. However, this design is often regarded with disdain as investments are reduced to a pittance from their price of entry and much beloved cards and decks become wholly unplayable, requiring reinvestment and replacement. The flaw of these formats is the static delineation of the subset card pool.
Non-rotational formats – By design are meant to protect investments through inclusion ad infinitum. The cards you have now might become monetarily worthless in an ever-expanding pool, but you can use them nonetheless. These formats tend to begin robust with broad variety, and occasionally get shaken-up by a mistake, but quickly become saturated by options increasingly incapable of replacing those previously presented. The flaw of these formats is that they tend to become solved, and anything that circumvents the solution is exercised.
Casual formats – There is no such thing.
How:
If this format is designed to avoid these pitfalls, then how do we go about doing that? After working on it for some time, we found the best solution to this would require a three-fold approach:
It must realign on a regular schedule (be rotational).
The size of the card pool must be large enough to exploit powerful options, yet small enough to allow creativity throughout its cycle (mimic “original” Extended).
The pool of cards must remain dynamic to avoid obsolescence (be partially random).
This gives us a rotational format to avoid stagnation, that’s roughly the size (by card pool) of pre-rotational Extended, and whose sets are determined via modified randomization. Hence the name of the format – Random Extend.
Implementation:
Being a take on Extended, we’ve decided the optimal number of sets to include would be roughly seven years’ worth of expansions plus two core sets and one supplemental set (to represent the three cores that would be available via bi-yearly release).
Realignment (i.e. rotation) will happen at the same time as standard (with the Fall set). The randomized sets will be chosen and posted here two weeks prior to that set’s release. The legal sets will be chosen in the following fashion:
One year’s worth of included expansion sets will always consist of the most current standard set released at rotation, its companion (Winter) set, and the following block (the Spring and Summer sets) as they become standard legal. These sets are automatically included so a standard player has a foot into the format as they do with all other formats. The previous standard sets that were released prior to the most recent rotation are not included because we didn’t want the same sets, purposefully, in the environment for two years in a row.
The other six years’ worth of included expansion sets will be selected via modified randomization (explained below). This will consist of between six to eight blocks depending upon the number of two and three set blocks selected. More specifically, it will always consist of between 15-18 individual sets.
Two core sets will be selected via modified randomization (explained below).
One supplemental set will be selected via modified randomization (explained below).
Modified Randomization:
The inaugural environment was determined with all blocks/cores/supplementals having an equal chance of inclusion. From this point forward, any time one is not selected, it will essentially have its name put in the randomizer an additional time. We decided to do it this way so each set will eventually get an opportunity to shine. Once a block/core/supplemental set is chosen, it will reset to having a single shot on the next randomization. The caveat to this being that the second block released in the current standard rotation will automatically be given one additional chance for selection since the sets therein will only exist in the environment for 5.5 and 2.5 months.
To maintain a lower variance in number of sets, we decided that if three to five blocks selected at random consist of only two sets, then one additional block will be selected. However, if all six blocks selected consist of only two sets, then two additional blocks will be selected. This will keep the number of randomly selected expansions between 15-18 rather than 12-18.
Legality:
The sets available for inclusion are only those advanced and expert sets released in 1995 and beyond. This excludes Homelands as it is not part of a block (and is all sorts of horrible). That makes the earliest block Ice Age, and the earliest core set 4th Edition. As for supplemental sets, no beginner sets will be included (i.e. no Portal or Starter sets). The currently selectable sets consist of the Commander, Conspiracy, and Planechase sets.
Coldsnap is included with the Ice Age block.
Chronicles is included with 4th Edition.
Timeshifted cards are included with the Time Spiral block.
Lorwyn/Morningtide and Shadowmoor/Eventide are considered two separate blocks.
All cards banned in Legacy are banned.
This was the simplest solution. We thought about just restricting them, but that might cause confusion and headaches. It’s better to be safe. And there would have been a turn two combo in the inaugural environment. It might have been ok, but not worth the risk.
Inclusions:
Now that all the reasoning is out of the way, and without further ado, here are the sets included in the inaugural Random Extend environment:
Standard:
Kaladesh / Aether Revolt (20-Jan-17)
Amonkhet (28-Apr-17) / Hour of Devastation (14-Jul-17)
Previous Blocks:
Ice Age / Alliances / Coldsnap
Tempest / Stronghold / Exodus
Mercadian Masques / Nemesis / Prophecy
Onslaught / Legions / Scourge
Champions of Kamigawa / Betrayers of Kamigawa / Saviors of Kamigawa
Shards of Alara / Conflux / Alara Reborn
Core Sets:
7th Edition
Magic 2010
Supplemental Sets:
Planechase 2012
Closing Thoughts:
I know the first environment is somewhat early set heavy, but so sayeth the randomizer. Please let us know what you think. If you try it out, please post deck lists. It would be exciting to see a developing metagame. Most importantly, have fun with it, and if you find any glaring issues, please bring it to our attention (e.g. it should rotate more/less often, contain more/fewer sets, etc.). Also, if you think of a better name than Random Extend, all ideas are welcome. That one was just low hanging fruit.
And yes, everyone says their "great idea" isn't "casual", but as far as I'm concerned, without having actually tested it themselves to see if it's viable... it's casual.
Somewhere in there, there must be a Storm deck, even if not as consistent as ANT or TES.
EDIT: This post just shows that, by copying the Legacy banlist, people are going to copy their favorite decks from Legacy where possible and make minor card slot adjustments to fit. It will still be semi-solved. People may just have to dip into tier 2 and tier 3 "solved" decks that actually match the sets.
Yes, Oath is what I meant. It's not an auto-win, but I don't see a reason to play anything else this rotation if it's openly available. Though that's me personally.
Aside from that, what would you suggest then if not the Legacy ban list? Selective unbanning would be a dicey proposition, because a card might be innocuous with one conglomeration of sets, but egregiously broken with another. And it's definitely not feasible to come up with a new list at every rotation based on the sets included. This leaves me under the impression that you believe they should be restricted instead (as originally planned). If so, I would certainly be fine with that. Though, if 4th Edition rotates in, it would open up Channel and Balance. Some may disapprove, but others would say that's what counterspells are for.
I don't think it's unhealthy for people to begin with established Legacy or Modern decks and tweak them to fit the scheme. It's only natural, and I think it would take a miracle combination of sets for them to be anywhere near as powerful as their progenitor. We could cut one block out and only do five random to strain resources even more, but I'd hesitate to consider more than that. Or we can restrict the randomization to include at most one or two pre-Modern blocks. However, the thought is that even if a deck does transfer nearly 1:1, it would only be legal until the next rotation.
It depends. Although the Legacy format as a whole draws from a large set of cards, on the individual level many top-tier Legacy decks can be approximated with just the right 3 blocks included. If any of these combinations are included by chance, a port is easy, especially considering the cardpool available from the other 4 selected blocks and 2 core sets. You'd expect the ported Legacy deck to outperform most other decks possible in the format, since it's already "solved" in a superset format. The chance of multiple top tier combinations appearing is very low, but the chance of at least one appearing is fairly high.
Ravnica + Time Spiral + Odyssey = Dredge (This one especially watch out for)
Odyssey + Tempest + (Urza's or 4th or 5th for Exhume/Animate Dead) = Reanimator
Tempest + Battle for Zendikar + Zendikar = Eldrazi Aggro
+ Mirrodin = Chalice of the Void too
{Ravnica OR Return to Ravinca} + {Zendikar OR Onslaught OR Khans} = fetch+shock manabases. It is not that unlikely to have some combination of those blocks included in the 7.
In this year's format, we are not lucky enough to have the dream manabases, but there are all the tools for blue-based control. Ideal win conditions are limited without Zendikar (Jace or Stoneforge), Innistrad (Miracles), Time Spiral (Goyf or Thopter+Sword), Return to Ravnica (RiP + Helm of Obedience), Shadowmoor (Painter + Grindstone), or Khans (delve stuff). But there is this hilariously stupid win condition
Blue control deck with a Storm finisher (infinite Tops into Brain Freeze).
Alternately, cut the silly combo for more removal and another win condition (e.g. Decree of Justice, Exalted Angel, Eternal Dragon).
The support for creatureless blue control is strong enough that if Oath of Druids wasn't banned, Oath would easily be the DTB. So I do support that ban.
Right as I started reading through that post I knew something was very amiss. I was thinking, none of these are supposed to be possible, what the hell happened. So, I dug around until I found my original notes from a few months ago... and I have no idea whatsoever where the Legacy ban list thing came from. I think it was because we thought it best to have as few things banned as possible (which is likely where we got the notion to restrict instead), but the original notes specify that the banned list is to include all cards that were banned the last time they were in the card pool of an Extended format (up to the inception of the Modern format), and all cards currently banned in Modern (with anything originally banned in both formats but since unbanned in Modern unbanned).
The thought behind that was there is a chance, all be it infinitesimal, that an actual old Extended format could become legal, and we wanted to prevent possible degenerate decks existent in those formats from reemerging. There is also a great deal of cross-over from that and the Legacy ban list that was meant to protect from the latter format as well. And, now that I think about it, that too might have been why we dropped the Extended list in favor of the Legacy list, so we could just point to that rather than listing everything out (how conveniently inconvenient). However, that still doesn't explain why the Modern list was cut.
Now, if we take the idea from the original notes, the list should look (in addition to the Modern list) more like the following:
What are your opinions if it were switched to that list instead?
Also, we've been reconsidering one year versus two years of Standard sets. The thought as described in the OP was to not have the same sets purposefully in two consecutive rotations in order to keep it more fresh. On the other hand, using one fewer random block and expanding to use the entire Standard format might help the format feel more unique and less like sub-Legacy/Modern... and the thought of playing Trix with Harmless Offering tickles me. Of course it's not possible without rigorous testing, but do you believe that would weaken it too much, or encourage a broader potential meta?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
We’re sure everyone is tired of ideas for new formats posted practically on a day to day basis, but we’ve been working on this for some time and felt that, due to its design, this would be the most appropriate time to present it. The priority of this format is to avoid what we believe to be the primary pitfalls inherent to the nature of rotational and non-rotational formats. Also, this is absolutely NOT meant to be casual by any stretch as that too is a trap.
Format Pitfalls:
Rotational formats – By design are perpetuated via planned obsolescence. This forced change is meant to breed creativity and maintain interest through an ever evolving metagame. However, this design is often regarded with disdain as investments are reduced to a pittance from their price of entry and much beloved cards and decks become wholly unplayable, requiring reinvestment and replacement. The flaw of these formats is the static delineation of the subset card pool.
Non-rotational formats – By design are meant to protect investments through inclusion ad infinitum. The cards you have now might become monetarily worthless in an ever-expanding pool, but you can use them nonetheless. These formats tend to begin robust with broad variety, and occasionally get shaken-up by a mistake, but quickly become saturated by options increasingly incapable of replacing those previously presented. The flaw of these formats is that they tend to become solved, and anything that circumvents the solution is exercised.
Casual formats – There is no such thing.
How:
If this format is designed to avoid these pitfalls, then how do we go about doing that? After working on it for some time, we found the best solution to this would require a three-fold approach:
This gives us a rotational format to avoid stagnation, that’s roughly the size (by card pool) of pre-rotational Extended, and whose sets are determined via modified randomization. Hence the name of the format – Random Extend.
Implementation:
Being a take on Extended, we’ve decided the optimal number of sets to include would be roughly seven years’ worth of expansions plus two core sets and one supplemental set (to represent the three cores that would be available via bi-yearly release).
Realignment (i.e. rotation) will happen at the same time as standard (with the Fall set). The randomized sets will be chosen and posted here two weeks prior to that set’s release. The legal sets will be chosen in the following fashion:
Modified Randomization:
The inaugural environment was determined with all blocks/cores/supplementals having an equal chance of inclusion. From this point forward, any time one is not selected, it will essentially have its name put in the randomizer an additional time. We decided to do it this way so each set will eventually get an opportunity to shine. Once a block/core/supplemental set is chosen, it will reset to having a single shot on the next randomization. The caveat to this being that the second block released in the current standard rotation will automatically be given one additional chance for selection since the sets therein will only exist in the environment for 5.5 and 2.5 months.
To maintain a lower variance in number of sets, we decided that if three to five blocks selected at random consist of only two sets, then one additional block will be selected. However, if all six blocks selected consist of only two sets, then two additional blocks will be selected. This will keep the number of randomly selected expansions between 15-18 rather than 12-18.
Legality:
The sets available for inclusion are only those advanced and expert sets released in 1995 and beyond. This excludes Homelands as it is not part of a block (and is all sorts of horrible). That makes the earliest block Ice Age, and the earliest core set 4th Edition. As for supplemental sets, no beginner sets will be included (i.e. no Portal or Starter sets). The currently selectable sets consist of the Commander, Conspiracy, and Planechase sets.
This was the simplest solution. We thought about just restricting them, but that might cause confusion and headaches. It’s better to be safe. And there would have been a turn two combo in the inaugural environment. It might have been ok, but not worth the risk.
Inclusions:
Now that all the reasoning is out of the way, and without further ado, here are the sets included in the inaugural Random Extend environment:
Standard:
Closing Thoughts:
I know the first environment is somewhat early set heavy, but so sayeth the randomizer. Please let us know what you think. If you try it out, please post deck lists. It would be exciting to see a developing metagame. Most importantly, have fun with it, and if you find any glaring issues, please bring it to our attention (e.g. it should rotate more/less often, contain more/fewer sets, etc.). Also, if you think of a better name than Random Extend, all ideas are welcome. That one was just low hanging fruit.
And yes, everyone says their "great idea" isn't "casual", but as far as I'm concerned, without having actually tested it themselves to see if it's viable... it's casual.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Hermit Druid would need some enablers to go-off on turn 2. And without Time Spiral block (Dread Return+Narcomoeba), Hermit Druid isn't that abusive.
Survival of the Fittest takes longer to go off.
---------------------
I think Storm is still possible. The cardpool contains:
Somewhere in there, there must be a Storm deck, even if not as consistent as ANT or TES.
EDIT: This post just shows that, by copying the Legacy banlist, people are going to copy their favorite decks from Legacy where possible and make minor card slot adjustments to fit. It will still be semi-solved. People may just have to dip into tier 2 and tier 3 "solved" decks that actually match the sets.
Aside from that, what would you suggest then if not the Legacy ban list? Selective unbanning would be a dicey proposition, because a card might be innocuous with one conglomeration of sets, but egregiously broken with another. And it's definitely not feasible to come up with a new list at every rotation based on the sets included. This leaves me under the impression that you believe they should be restricted instead (as originally planned). If so, I would certainly be fine with that. Though, if 4th Edition rotates in, it would open up Channel and Balance. Some may disapprove, but others would say that's what counterspells are for.
I don't think it's unhealthy for people to begin with established Legacy or Modern decks and tweak them to fit the scheme. It's only natural, and I think it would take a miracle combination of sets for them to be anywhere near as powerful as their progenitor. We could cut one block out and only do five random to strain resources even more, but I'd hesitate to consider more than that. Or we can restrict the randomization to include at most one or two pre-Modern blocks. However, the thought is that even if a deck does transfer nearly 1:1, it would only be legal until the next rotation.
Ravnica + Time Spiral + Odyssey = Dredge (This one especially watch out for)
Odyssey + Tempest + (Urza's or 4th or 5th for Exhume/Animate Dead) = Reanimator
Tempest + Battle for Zendikar + Zendikar = Eldrazi Aggro
+ Mirrodin = Chalice of the Void too
Mirrodin = Affinity (LOL)
+ Scars = better Affinity
Tempest + Mirrodin = Chalice Stompy shell (which color will depend on other blocks in rotation)
Mirage + Shards = Bant NO PRO
Tempest + Urza's + Zendikar = Sneak/Show Eldrazi shell
Tempest + Urza's + Mirrodin = Welder MUD
+ Scars = Forgemaster into Blightsteel
Ice Age + Kamigawa = CounterTop with Brainstorm, FoW, StP, Counterspell
+ Innistrad = CounterTop Miracles
+ R2R = CounterTop RiP+Helm
Ice Age + Zendikar + Scars = Stoneblade
{Ravnica OR Return to Ravinca} + {Zendikar OR Onslaught OR Khans} = fetch+shock manabases. It is not that unlikely to have some combination of those blocks included in the 7.
In this year's format, we are not lucky enough to have the dream manabases, but there are all the tools for blue-based control. Ideal win conditions are limited without Zendikar (Jace or Stoneforge), Innistrad (Miracles), Time Spiral (Goyf or Thopter+Sword), Return to Ravnica (RiP + Helm of Obedience), Shadowmoor (Painter + Grindstone), or Khans (delve stuff). But there is this hilariously stupid win condition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
3 Wrath of God
//Permanents: 10
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
//Combo: 4
2 Brain Freeze
2 Etherium Sculptor
//Lands: 22
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Island
4 Plains
2 Adarkar Wastes
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Daze
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Decree of Justice
2 Negate
1 Wrath of God
Blue control deck with a Storm finisher (infinite Tops into Brain Freeze).
Alternately, cut the silly combo for more removal and another win condition (e.g. Decree of Justice, Exalted Angel, Eternal Dragon).
The support for creatureless blue control is strong enough that if Oath of Druids wasn't banned, Oath would easily be the DTB. So I do support that ban.
The thought behind that was there is a chance, all be it infinitesimal, that an actual old Extended format could become legal, and we wanted to prevent possible degenerate decks existent in those formats from reemerging. There is also a great deal of cross-over from that and the Legacy ban list that was meant to protect from the latter format as well. And, now that I think about it, that too might have been why we dropped the Extended list in favor of the Legacy list, so we could just point to that rather than listing everything out (how conveniently inconvenient). However, that still doesn't explain why the Modern list was cut.
Now, if we take the idea from the original notes, the list should look (in addition to the Modern list) more like the following:
I believe these are the only cards banned in Legacy that would not be banned per this list:
With the most notable additions present on this list that are not on the Legacy list being those below:
What are your opinions if it were switched to that list instead?
Also, we've been reconsidering one year versus two years of Standard sets. The thought as described in the OP was to not have the same sets purposefully in two consecutive rotations in order to keep it more fresh. On the other hand, using one fewer random block and expanding to use the entire Standard format might help the format feel more unique and less like sub-Legacy/Modern... and the thought of playing Trix with Harmless Offering tickles me. Of course it's not possible without rigorous testing, but do you believe that would weaken it too much, or encourage a broader potential meta?