Thoughtseize [cashsieze] is "the best" discard spell, though Mind Twist and Hymn to Tourach are great in their own ways for their own reasons. I just prefer Duress because you don't lose the two life and I could care less about your creature spells. There are plenty of things out there that can deal with creatures, however, black can't deal with artifacts and enchantments. Also, discard is the way to get rid of nasty spells. If you're worried about creatures, then you need to change the main deck in general. I would suggest a more MBC build than a discard build myself.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
About creatures, I think it is normal to be worried of those when you play Discard, one is enough to kill you.
You need to be able to control the board (removals) too, because it's strictly impossible to completely prevent every sort of opponents to get a creature in play, particularly when you're on the draw (I hate Goblins!!).
That's what I am worried about. A bad first turn and a Goblin Guide ready to kill you.
What do you guys think about Nezumi Shortfang? Especially in my previously posted deck design. It can help with both discard and then racks when they don't have a hand, not to mention, once again it can be regened by Swarmward.
I'm trying to build a good discard deck. This is my intended deck so far. I was wondering if anyone had some criticisms on it. The idea is to discard their hand and burn them away with cards like rack, hellfire mongrel, lavaborn muse, ect. Also, the deck is at 70 cards but I'm not sure what to remove, thoughts?
You make your opponent drop stuff then draw stuff again? If you're looking for black draw, a good one (budget) would be phyrexian arena =)
For pure fun, how about Sorin Markov (pinger+finisher) or Liliana Vess (discard all his stuff, then use the ulti to steal all his creatures he dropped)?
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This should help people out who are addressing me in further posts: My name is Tenkai. It's not Tokobo. Thank you. =)
You make your opponent drop stuff then draw stuff again? If you're looking for black draw, a good one (budget) would be phyrexian arena =)
For pure fun, how about Sorin Markov (pinger+finisher) or Liliana Vess (discard all his stuff, then use the ulti to steal all his creatures he dropped)?
while your focus is Nyxathid your modus operandi is discard -> moved.
you def. need more than 18 lands if you want to actualy cast those PWs during a game. and if you add Lkae, that only means you need more lands too.
22 without Lake and 24 with Lake. I'd cut Sorin (too high cmc) and Nocturnus (wrong deck, it's like Megrim and that's sub-par in discard).
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Each reality is but the dream of another, and each sleeper a god unknowing.
We define the boundaries of reality; they don't define us.
You also have a few things like Spiteful Visions Although it isn't mono black(but it would fit in Mono Black), and it is not directly making someone draw a card.
I am on an iood tokuch so sorry for no tags. I have some questions about the cards. How would chittering rats, the patron, and the urborg help the deck?
so i went to the card shop and looked for what u suggested and they did not have crypt rats and swampyard but there were strip mines and hypnotic specters so instead of rack rats i can go with a non tribal path
Discard is just about keeping people honest. Those counter-control players always hoard the cards in their hands like they have something to hide. There's always someone holding mass removal and waiting for an opponent to overextend. It would be much easier on everyone not to worry about hands and just have to deal with the cards on the table. Then it would be closer to chess and there wouldn't be any surprises.
Here's my current deck:
I'm liking the Augur over Ravenous Rats. It's two cards instead of one, and you can use it as a blocker until you want to use it.
I'm trying the Inquisition in place of Duress after this happened to me too many times.
I'm debating putting in some Diabolic Edicts for creature removal. But so far, playing against aggressive creature decks means they dump their hands quickly and makes it easy to get a beefy Nyx.
The Grimoire/Words combo looks awesome in multiplayer, but it's a sure way to get everyone to try to kill me first. If only they made some new multiplayer format in which it was one player against the rest...
It turns out that building a proper discard deck is probably the toughest type of deck I tried to build so far... I tried many variation without succeeding building a very good discard decks.
EDH Deck: UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU GW Rhys the RedeemedWG WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Alright get rid of megrim like now honestly and I think you got something good going on but kick dark ritual to 4 also i personally prefer ravenous rats over rotting rats. As well as duress over smallpox and mutilate is also good. Check out my link for Liliana vess for advice or the primer discard deck.
About the dark ritual, I rescently reduce the count from 4 to 3, because, the deck is usually light in mana, and I'd rather not draw dark ritual when I don't need it.
Regarding the rats, I prefer the ravenous for single player game, but the rotting seems more effective in MP.
In case of Megrim, I use to run with just 4 quests and no Megrim, and I found that I was lacking winning condition, I think Megrim and the Quest work great together: if the player wants to play instead of keeping the cards because of Megrim, well he'll gets wacked by the Quest, if not, a discard may cause him to loose two more life.
---
Also, after thought, I think I will replace Nightshade Assassin
by Screeching Buzzard, it seems to be a better deal, ready to die and to force the discard.
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EDH Deck: UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU GW Rhys the RedeemedWG WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
I thought about putting Abyssal Nocturnus or Guul in it, but I couldn't find something to remove... Same for The Rack.
I thought about: The rack + Delirium Skeins, gets pretty nasty
So far I like all the cards in this deck. Now I agree, I'm not sure this is good enough. The Rack should probably go in!
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EDH Deck: UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU GW Rhys the RedeemedWG WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
That's what I am worried about. A bad first turn and a Goblin Guide ready to kill you.
Thanks a million to SB4 and High~Light Studios.
Also, ich habe gehoert du magst mudkipen.
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Lavaborn Muse
4 Hellfire Mongrels
4 Hellhole Rats
4 Hypnotic Specters
2 Nezumi Shortfang
2 Iliana Vess
4 The Rack
4 Blightning
4 Terminate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Raven's crime
2 Browbeat
4 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 terramorphic expansion
10 Swamps
6 mountains
I've considered putting in Rackling and Inquisition of kozilek. Would these be worth it?
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Abyssal Nocturnus
3 Ravenous Rats
3 Augur of Skulls
4 Mortivore
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mind Rot
4 Duress
3 Mind Shatter
Maybe give an idea of what your deck's objective are?
From your list I gather that it's a mono black aggro discard?
The rack might fit in there =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
i had it in there and i know it is a good damage dealer i just dont think it fit in there.:-/
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Abyssal Nocturnus
3 Ravenous Rats
3 Augur of Skulls
2 Mortivore
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mind Rot
4 Duress
3 Mind Shatter
1 Sorin Markov
1 Liliana Vess
You make your opponent drop stuff then draw stuff again? If you're looking for black draw, a good one (budget) would be phyrexian arena =)
For pure fun, how about Sorin Markov (pinger+finisher) or Liliana Vess (discard all his stuff, then use the ulti to steal all his creatures he dropped)?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Ty for the idea
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Abyssal Nocturnus
4 Ravenous Rats
4 Augur of Skulls
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mind Rot
3 Mind Shatter
2 Sorin Markov
2 Liliana Vess
Any land ideas for this deck or should i just go mono black lands?
But you might want to recur your lands with crucible of worlds and like.
More land ideas would be man lands like Mishra's Factory or Tomb of Urami or cycling lands i.e. Barren Moor or even the insane combo of Vampire Hexmage + Dark Depths with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I'll stick to all swamps.
There is some need for removal spells in case something does go through discards.
Sasky for the Sig.
I am in your [PACK]. Watching you... do... something.
you def. need more than 18 lands if you want to actualy cast those PWs during a game. and if you add Lkae, that only means you need more lands too.
22 without Lake and 24 with Lake. I'd cut Sorin (too high cmc) and Nocturnus (wrong deck, it's like Megrim and that's sub-par in discard).
The only ones I can think of are Sign in Blood and Fatal Lore.
You also have a few things like Spiteful Visions Although it isn't mono black(but it would fit in Mono Black), and it is not directly making someone draw a card.
Thanks a million to SB4 and High~Light Studios.
Also, ich habe gehoert du magst mudkipen.
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
2 funeral charm
4 unmake
yeah i have a lot to add and if i can find 4 strip mine i will make it to 18 lands
22 to go
-4 Unmake (better get faster removals)
-2 Funeral Charm (non-targeted, not really good)
Now, 28 to go.
+4 Chittering Rats
+4 Nezumi Shortfang
+4 The Rack
+4 Doom Blade / Smother...
+3 Swarmyard
+3 Skullsnatcher / Throat Slitter
+3 Crypt Rats (swarmyard + this = permanent board cleaned)
+2 Patron of the Nezumi
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Cheap 'n Effective
so i went to the card shop and looked for what u suggested and they did not have crypt rats and swampyard but there were strip mines and hypnotic specters so instead of rack rats i can go with a non tribal path
so the current deck list would look like this
4 strip mine
4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
4 the rack
4 ravenous rats
4 chittering rats
4 hypnotic specter
so there are 10 spaces left unless i cant count and im not sure if the shop has the shortfang so i did not add it
Here's my current deck:
4x Nezumi Shortfang
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nyxathid
4x Inquisition of Kozliek
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Geth's Grimoire
4x Words of Waste
I'm liking the Augur over Ravenous Rats. It's two cards instead of one, and you can use it as a blocker until you want to use it.
I'm trying the Inquisition in place of Duress after this happened to me too many times.
I'm debating putting in some Diabolic Edicts for creature removal. But so far, playing against aggressive creature decks means they dump their hands quickly and makes it easy to get a beefy Nyx.
The Grimoire/Words combo looks awesome in multiplayer, but it's a sure way to get everyone to try to kill me first. If only they made some new multiplayer format in which it was one player against the rest...
In my limited experience... no. He's still a 1/1 and he will die soon. The rat is a nice chump, but if this guy chumps then they get the card back.
Thanks a million to SB4 and High~Light Studios.
Also, ich habe gehoert du magst mudkipen.
Here is the latest revision:
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Screeching Buzzard
3 Rotting Rats
Winning factor:
3 Quest for the nihil stone
3 Megrim
Discard spells:
2 Honden of Night's Reach
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Smallpox
4 Funeral Charm
3 Dark Ritual
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Mutilate
Land:
18 Swamp
4 Bojuka Bog
3 Ravenous Rats
3 Duress
3 Last gasp
3 Persecute
3 Augur of Skulls
The main deck is a multiplayer oriented discard deck, the sideboard is there to change it to a 1vs1 discard deck:
Ravenous Rats <-> Rotting Rats or Augur of Skulls
Smallpox <-> Duress or Persecute
Mutilate <-> Last gasp
What do you think about it?
Any suggestion?
Thanks,
Kandjar
UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW
Garruk's Predators
Liliana's Corruption
Regarding the rats, I prefer the ravenous for single player game, but the rotting seems more effective in MP.
In case of Megrim, I use to run with just 4 quests and no Megrim, and I found that I was lacking winning condition, I think Megrim and the Quest work great together: if the player wants to play instead of keeping the cards because of Megrim, well he'll gets wacked by the Quest, if not, a discard may cause him to loose two more life.
---
Also, after thought, I think I will replace Nightshade Assassin
by Screeching Buzzard, it seems to be a better deal, ready to die and to force the discard.
UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW
Also, you should be running The Rack and Black Vise. WARNING: This could make your meta hate you.
EDIT:
Even meaner: Cursed Rack
"Do not regret growing older. It is a privilege denied to many."
I thought about putting Abyssal Nocturnus or Guul in it, but I couldn't find something to remove... Same for The Rack.
I thought about: The rack + Delirium Skeins, gets pretty nasty
So far I like all the cards in this deck. Now I agree, I'm not sure this is good enough. The Rack should probably go in!
UB Lazavm Dimir Mastermind BU
GW Rhys the RedeemedWG
WUG Derevi, Epyrial Tactitian GUW
WUG Roon of the Hidden RealmGUW
WBR Kaliaa of the VastRBW
WUB Sydri, Galvanic Genius BUW
Casual decks:
UB Ninja v2.1 BU
GU Simic's Fathom v0.9 UG
RGW Sarkhan's Seasoning v0.80 WGR
WR Chandra's Rebirth v0.3 RW