I am thinking of a mono red Kiln Fiend deck which is a variant to the U/R Kiln Fiend. The idea is that it'll be more aggressive on the Kiln Fiend end. This is the main draft decklist below. Thoughts or improvements?
This deck looks less aggressive on the Kiln Fiend front! You still need cheap cantrips to have fuel for Kiln Fiend, otherwise it won't swing for lethal.
Flamekin Harbinger is fine I guess if you're using it to get Kiln Fiends, but the other elementals seem really terrible (except maybe a 1-of Nova Chaser to fetch with Harbinger when you just need to end the game and are out of spells).
EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't even realize Nova Chaser doesn't have haste. Even Championing a Harbinger to potentially get a 2nd tutor, it still seems bad. Ball Lightning instead?
With Gitaxian Probe, I thought it is banned in Modern. Would Renegade tactics or Gut shot be a good substitute? Apart from drawing cards, I found there are times when it is just about getting the damage through. Or just lack of 1 more red mana or card to get Kiln Fiend to finish the game
You didn't specify Modern legal. This is the Casual forum, not the Modern forum, so not all decks here need to be Modern legal. Did you mean to post here?
What is the purpose of building this deck?
-Modern FNM?
-Modern Tournament?
-kitchen table gameplay with friends playing competitive Modern decks?
-kitchen table gameplay with friends playing homebrews?
That will impact card choices and deck viability.
Would Renegade tactics or Gut shot be a good substitute? Apart from drawing cards, I found there are times when it is just about getting the damage through. Or just lack of 1 more red mana or card to get Kiln Fiend to finish the game
None of these options really match what Probe can do. Without Probe or Blue, I would try to play the red cantrips then: Magmatic Insight, Faithless Looting. At least they help you dig into more gas, threats, burn, or whatever you need to win. A deck like this has low threat density and needs cantrips to find cards. Tactics doesn't really count because you can't play it on turn 1 to set up your future plays (needs a legal target).
Yeah, I alluded to that in my other comment: "Even Championing a Harbinger to potentially get a 2nd tutor, it still seems bad."
The problem is that play is too slow for an aggro deck. You cast Harbinger to find Chaser. On turn 4-6 (depending on when you draw the 4th land), you cast Chaser championing Harbinger (though if they have removal then you lose BOTH Harbinger and Chaser). Next turn (turn 5-7) opponent kills it before you can attack for 10 trample. Harbinger comes back finding another elemental (Kiln Fiend?). Next turn (turn 6-8) you draw and play that elemental. Next turn (turn 7-9) you get to attack with that creature. If it's Kiln Fiend, you may not even have enough spells to deal much damage with it yet, because you used up 2 draws getting elementals.
The problem with this line of play is that is you're creating no pressure for 4 turns. You're also giving up 2 draw steps to get those elementals instead of potentially other useful cards. A deck like this can't afford to deal no damage for that many turns and go to the lategame, because any midrange or control deck will just take control and stomp you.
Bedlam Reveler is a better lategame play than Nova Chaser. You can't get 2-for-1'd by removal in response to Champion and it draws you into more gas immediately.
With Thing in Ice, the U/R deck has it as a second finisher. Ball Lightning would be a good replacement.Any other thoughts?
It started with a 'casual' group of friends. Most of them compete in modern FNM and some local game - so it's a competitive group. I am thinking of drafting it for the upcoming local modern tournament too.
Correction here, there's no scenario where you actually lose both (unless for some reason you want to). It's not like an Oblivion Ring where the target is chosen when the enter-the battlefield ability goes on the stack, instead with Champion you only decide whether or not to sacrifice a creature when the enter-the-battlefield ability resolves. If the Nova Chaser is already dead at this point you're obviously not going to choose to sacrifice a creature to it.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't played against Champion much before and made an honest mistake. Just so you know, that's not how the 2-for-1 happens. You never kill the Nova Chaser. You Shock the Flamekin Harbinger with Nova Chaser's Champion on the stack. When the Champion resolves, there are no other Elementals and he has to sacrifice the Nova Chaser to itself (remember, this deck has low creature count and he's tutoring for Nova Chaser only when his Kiln Fiend plan failed).
This is the same way you beat Mistbind Clique in Lorwyn Standard Faeries. Instead of trying to kill the Clique directly or having your lands tapped, you just Volcanic Fallout away his other Faeries in response to Champion. Clique will disappear too.
- Ground Rift vs Assault Strobe ? Ground Rift gets damage through for the prowess creatures - but Assault Strobe gets double strike. Or should I have a mix?
Ground Rift only triggers Prowess once. The storm copies aren't "cast", just put on the stack. It's very bad in your list, worse than Renegade Tactics. I mentioned Ground Rift because it's good with Nivmagus Elemental (you can exile each storm copy to add +2/+2). Nivmagus is one option for a secondary win condition. But if you're not playing Nivmagus, don't play Ground Rift.
Here's a Nivmagus list I used to pilot ages ago, before Gitaxian Probe was banned and before Thing in the Ice was printed. I'm posting it just to show how Ground Rift is supposed to work in Kiln Fiend decks.
This deck uses Infect and/or Double Strike to one-shot people. Free spells help pump Kiln Fiend and build storm for Ground Rift, which can then feed storm copies to Nivmagus to grow it very large. Black was needed at the time because Temur Battlerage hadn't been printed yet and Tainted Strike gave you another way to one shot people. A monored version of this should be possible, though it's probably better to just play mono red with burn and the Prowess creatures. This deck is high variance.
I was suggesting Ball Lightning to replace Nova Chaser as a 1-of, as a tutorable Elemental finisher with trample and haste, only if you were also running 4 Flamekin Harbinger anyway. But it doesn't replace Thing in the Ice as your secondary threat. And Bedlam Reveler is probably a better finisher.
Good secondary threats to replace Thing in the Ice in monored:
I am thinking of a mono red Kiln Fiend deck which is a variant to the U/R Kiln Fiend. The idea is that it'll be more aggressive on the Kiln Fiend end. This is the main draft decklist below. Thoughts or improvements?
fyi: link to U/R Kiln Fiend http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13662&d=280490&f=MO
3 Forked Bolt
4 Temur Battle Rage
3 Flame Slash
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
2 Renegade Tactics
2 Apostle's Blessing
2 Smokebraider
2 Young Pyromancer
4 Flamekin Harbinger
2 Nova Chaser
2 Incandescent Soulstoke
4 Kiln Fiend
22 Mountains
Flamekin Harbinger is fine I guess if you're using it to get Kiln Fiends, but the other elementals seem really terrible (except maybe a 1-of Nova Chaser to fetch with Harbinger when you just need to end the game and are out of spells).
EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't even realize Nova Chaser doesn't have haste. Even Championing a Harbinger to potentially get a 2nd tutor, it still seems bad. Ball Lightning instead?
4 Flamekin Harbinger
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Kiln Fiend
1 Ball Lightning
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
3 Magmatic Insight
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Temur Battle Rage
3 Fireblast
19 Mountain
Thanks, those are valid points.
With Gitaxian Probe, I thought it is banned in Modern. Would Renegade tactics or Gut shot be a good substitute? Apart from drawing cards, I found there are times when it is just about getting the damage through. Or just lack of 1 more red mana or card to get Kiln Fiend to finish the game
With Nova Chaser, there is an ETB trick with it. When it comes to play, I exile Flamekin Harbinger. If the opponent removes Nova Chaser - and Flamekin Harbinger comes back to play, I could tutor another elemental.
With Thing in Ice, the U/R deck has it as a second finisher. Ball Lightning would be a good replacement.Any other thoughts?
You didn't specify Modern legal. This is the Casual forum, not the Modern forum, so not all decks here need to be Modern legal. Did you mean to post here?
What is the purpose of building this deck?
-Modern FNM?
-Modern Tournament?
-kitchen table gameplay with friends playing competitive Modern decks?
-kitchen table gameplay with friends playing homebrews?
That will impact card choices and deck viability.
None of these options really match what Probe can do. Without Probe or Blue, I would try to play the red cantrips then: Magmatic Insight, Faithless Looting. At least they help you dig into more gas, threats, burn, or whatever you need to win. A deck like this has low threat density and needs cantrips to find cards. Tactics doesn't really count because you can't play it on turn 1 to set up your future plays (needs a legal target).
Yeah, I alluded to that in my other comment: "Even Championing a Harbinger to potentially get a 2nd tutor, it still seems bad."
The problem is that play is too slow for an aggro deck. You cast Harbinger to find Chaser. On turn 4-6 (depending on when you draw the 4th land), you cast Chaser championing Harbinger (though if they have removal then you lose BOTH Harbinger and Chaser). Next turn (turn 5-7) opponent kills it before you can attack for 10 trample. Harbinger comes back finding another elemental (Kiln Fiend?). Next turn (turn 6-8) you draw and play that elemental. Next turn (turn 7-9) you get to attack with that creature. If it's Kiln Fiend, you may not even have enough spells to deal much damage with it yet, because you used up 2 draws getting elementals.
The problem with this line of play is that is you're creating no pressure for 4 turns. You're also giving up 2 draw steps to get those elementals instead of potentially other useful cards. A deck like this can't afford to deal no damage for that many turns and go to the lategame, because any midrange or control deck will just take control and stomp you.
Bedlam Reveler is a better lategame play than Nova Chaser. You can't get 2-for-1'd by removal in response to Champion and it draws you into more gas immediately.
In monored, your best bet for back-up earlygame kill conditions are probably Prowess creatures: Monastery Swiftspear, Soul-Scar Mage, Abbot of Keral Keep. You could also try Nivmagus Elemental (which would involve changing the spells and running stuff like Ground Rift).
For a later finisher, Bedlam Reveler seems like the best choice.
It started with a 'casual' group of friends. Most of them compete in modern FNM and some local game - so it's a competitive group. I am thinking of drafting it for the upcoming local modern tournament too.
My current list is below. Some of my additional thoughts
- Ground Rift vs Assault Strobe ? Ground Rift gets damage through for the prowess creatures - but Assault Strobe gets double strike. Or should I have a mix?\
-Young Pyromancer vs Abbot of Keral Keep ? The Young Pyromancer is nice to create an army but Abbot has many combo with Ball Lightning or other cantrips
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Burst Lightning
3 Faithless Looting
3 Magmatic Insight
4 Ground Rift
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Young Pyromancer
4 Flamekin Harbinger
2 Abbot of Keral Keep
1 Ball Lightning
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Kiln Fiend
19 Mountains
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't played against Champion much before and made an honest mistake. Just so you know, that's not how the 2-for-1 happens. You never kill the Nova Chaser. You Shock the Flamekin Harbinger with Nova Chaser's Champion on the stack. When the Champion resolves, there are no other Elementals and he has to sacrifice the Nova Chaser to itself (remember, this deck has low creature count and he's tutoring for Nova Chaser only when his Kiln Fiend plan failed).
This is the same way you beat Mistbind Clique in Lorwyn Standard Faeries. Instead of trying to kill the Clique directly or having your lands tapped, you just Volcanic Fallout away his other Faeries in response to Champion. Clique will disappear too.
Ground Rift only triggers Prowess once. The storm copies aren't "cast", just put on the stack. It's very bad in your list, worse than Renegade Tactics. I mentioned Ground Rift because it's good with Nivmagus Elemental (you can exile each storm copy to add +2/+2). Nivmagus is one option for a secondary win condition. But if you're not playing Nivmagus, don't play Ground Rift.
Here's a Nivmagus list I used to pilot ages ago, before Gitaxian Probe was banned and before Thing in the Ice was printed. I'm posting it just to show how Ground Rift is supposed to work in Kiln Fiend decks.
4 Flamekin Harbinger
4 Nivmagus Elemental
4 Kiln Fiend
//Spells: 30
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mutagenic Growth
4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ground Rift
3 Tainted Strike
3 Assault Strobe
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
4 Mountain
3 Duress
3 Gut Shot
3 Dismember
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Shattering Spree
This deck uses Infect and/or Double Strike to one-shot people. Free spells help pump Kiln Fiend and build storm for Ground Rift, which can then feed storm copies to Nivmagus to grow it very large. Black was needed at the time because Temur Battlerage hadn't been printed yet and Tainted Strike gave you another way to one shot people. A monored version of this should be possible, though it's probably better to just play mono red with burn and the Prowess creatures. This deck is high variance.
This is my new mix. Basically I tried to find common themes with the BR and UR version.
I am a bit unsure between Magmatic Insight vs Tormenting Voice . Would discarding a land be an issue?
Also, I added Pyroclasm , which serves as a board clear effect. This is something that Thing in Ice transform does.
Creatures 14
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Ball Lightning
2 Flamekin Harbinger
Draws 8
4 Faithless Looting
2 Magmatic Insight
2 Tormenting Voice
Spells 20
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Apostle's Blessing
4 Temur Battle Rage
4 Burst Lightning
4 Mutagenic Growth
2 Pyroclasm
Land 18
18 Mountain
Needing opinion on how to replace Thing in Ice in mono red. These are my options:
1. 4x Ball Lightning
2. 2x Ball Lightning + 2x Flamekin Harbinger
3. Option 1 or option 2 with Pyroclasm to board clear
4. 4x Young Pyromancer
What do you all think?
I was suggesting Ball Lightning to replace Nova Chaser as a 1-of, as a tutorable Elemental finisher with trample and haste, only if you were also running 4 Flamekin Harbinger anyway. But it doesn't replace Thing in the Ice as your secondary threat. And Bedlam Reveler is probably a better finisher.
Good secondary threats to replace Thing in the Ice in monored: