(edit: Since the thread was moved, I posted my deck list in a later post, if you are interested.)
Hi all,
I've been musing for a long time now about a change to one of my decks built around Unspeakable Symbol by including some copies of Transcendence. I recently got my hands on a full playset of that enchantment, so of course my mind is at it again. Problem is, I'm still missing that "perfect" third card for the "infinite" life combo, namely, the one that gets rid of Transcendence so that I can let all those life gain triggers resolve and go beyond 20 life without losing the game.
My best ideas right now are Auratog and Kami of Ancient Law (and its many functional identical brethren). However, I feel like I can do better. Yet, since I can't really define what "better" would mean for the deck, I'm having trouble searching the gatherer for the card to best all others in this regard. So maybe someone here has that ingenious idea that eludes me?
Criteria:
1) The card must fit a w/b deck.
2) The card must be able to remove Transcendence from the battlefield at a moment's notice (= instant timing).
3) It must do so requiring as little mana as possible, since Transcendence is likely to use up all my mana during the turn I play it (almost certainly all my white mana), and I don't want to give my opponent a whole turn to do nasty stuff with it on the field.
4) The card should be useful on its own. The more options it gives me the better.
5) I would like the card to be a creature, because the deck has been wanting for creatures ever since its first incarnation, and any changes to the deck are almost guaranteed to cut into the creature base. However, this is not strictly nessessary, but would certainly be a huge pro for the card.
Remove Enchantments has a hilariously overcomplicated wording, is useful for protecting your enchantments from sweepers (plus destroying auras your opponent(s) have put on your creatures or on their attacking creatures), and only costs 1 mana to cast.
Daru Sanctifier would let you respond to split second, so your opponent couldn't for example, use Sudden Spoiling to turn off your creature to prevent you from destroying Transcendence.
Mangara of Corondor needs to lose summoning sickness, but doesn't cost any mana to activate.
Black has its fair share of "sacrifice a permanent for effect" abilities too, which seems a better way to go than using a removal spell on your own stuff
There really aren't that many black cards that let you sacrifice an enchantment. Mostly it's sacrificing creatures, sacrificing lands, or the result of some effect (eg, "when ~ is dealt damage") instead of a cost, so it's not something you can do at instant speed without adding another card to the mix.
Also, adding to the list of options: Faith Healer will let you add 6 onto the amount of life you gain from the Transcendence triggers. (Of course, since we're talking "gain an arbitrary amount of life", adding 6 doesn't mean too much.) Renounce would function similarly in this deck.
Pious Evangel can be a soul sister or blood artist. Also lets you pay for more Unspeakable Symbol activations if you haven't drawn Transcendence yet.
Aura of Silence is pretty good artifact/enchantment hate, and can get rid of your Transcendence for free.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I like many of them, the top spot right now is held by Mangara. Since the thread was moved to the Casual forum, might as well post my deck list and see what others think about it.
With a much heavier focus on white mana, Beseech the Queen became worse than Diabolic Tutor most of the time, a card I don't want to run, so I cut it to make some room. I'd like to get some copies of Read the Bones into the deck for digging power.
(Edit: I decided to cut into the life gain portion of the deck, since comboing out will give me all the life I could ever need. So now I have 3 Read the Bones for digging, replacing the sole remaining Mourning Thrull and the two Spirit Loops. I should probably try to add the fourth copy as well.)
Damnation and Wrath of God were meta game choices when I last tinkered with the deck, but right now, I want to get the combo going. Meta game specifics can wait. I also have a bunch of other white and/or black sweepers available should they become nessessary.
Sadly, only two copies of PtE available for the forseeable future. Temporal Isolation was a sort of replacement for the missing two copies.
Playsets of Godless Shrine and Caves of Koilos are available for fixing this color intensive build. Other dual lands, not so much. They should suffice for now. I've gone up to three copies of the Caves, ut went down from 25 to 24 lands despite the increases of the mana curve. I think, the 25th land was a remainder of a previous 61 or 62 card test version. But I might have to add it again to get to 6 mana faster, we'll see. The deck should work well enough with 24 lands for testing purposes.
I went full out on the Transcendence combo with a full playset, because I might as well dive in completely. The combo will be a major focus now after all.
I mean.... Why not use Ronom Unicorn? 2 Mana and sac it whenever
Well, I am using it, kinda. The ones in the deck are called Kami of Ancient Law. And there are a bunch of other functionally identical cards, enough really, to load up the deck with like 20 or so. The question is, how many should I run, and what to cut for them.
Edit: But I might mix those up a bit, running several 1-ofs of them instead of a playset of one, in order to weaken hate cards like Cranial Extraction or Extirpate. It will have only a very small impact, but it doesn't cost me anything.
Because paying life means losing life, which triggers Transcendence to gain double that life. Basically, your life total will go up, wether you gain life or lose life. And if your life total ever reaches 20 or goes beyond, even in the middle of the resolution of a spell or ability, the "lose the game" trigger goes off, and it will resolve, even if your life total drops below 20 again, even if Transcendence leaves the game.
Loxodon seems very mana-intensive. Is it better than Spirit Loop?
Does this have to be Modern legal for some reason? Why 2 PtE and 2 Temporal Isolation instead of 4 Swords to Plowshares? You can even hit your own creature in a pinch to gain infinite life or avoid losing the game.
Loxodon seems very mana-intensive. Is it better than Spirit Loop?
In my experience, yes. The trample has been very important many times, and the +3 power boost is also quite significant. The two Warhammers replaced the other two Loops a long time ago, and I never regreted it.
Does this have to be Modern legal for some reason? Why 2 PtE and 2 Temporal Isolation instead of 4 Swords to Plowshares? You can even hit your own creature in a pinch to gain infinite life or avoid losing the game.
The deck isn't Modern legal as neither of the two main pieces is in a Modern legal set. PtE was simply the best removal at my disposal at the time. Interestingly, I never had any reason to aquire some StPs in the past, so I currently don't own any. But you have a point. Unlike many other decks of mine, this one can really use StP.
Well, trying to squeeze in a fourth copy of Read the Bones is at the top of my wish list right now. The only card I really need to get rather early is Unspeakable Symbol as the deck works even without Transcendence (though a lot better with, of course). Academy Rector looks interesting as a tutor, I will look into it.
I only need to abuse Transcendence once, because my life total will then go through the stratosphere. The key is to pay life to always keep your life total below 20, and at some point let one life gain trigger resolve to gain more life for more activations. Until you have A LOT of life gain triggers (and in between some activations of Unspeakable Symbol), then you can get rid of Transcendence and safely let those life gain triggers resolve. And because my life total will be astronomically high, blinking Transcendence with that much life will kill me when it returns. Plus, I don't really need it anymore. The life I gained though the combo should usually last me for the rest of the game, even if I give every creature I have 1000 counters.
In that case I suggest Angelic Purge (the direct approach) or Cataclysmic Gearhulk and/or Tragic Arrogance (which should both work if you have a second enchantment.) It's not super important that the solution is cheap, right? I mean, you have already cast Transcendence, so presumably you can wait until your next turn to combo out and then get rid of it. It's not like you're going to die to a little bit of damage.
It's important, that the means to remove Transcendence works with instant timing, because there are many life gain triggers on the stack, and I have to get rid of the enchantment before they resolve. So all those sorcery timing cards are out.
I tinkered with the deck some more and removed all four Children of Korlis. I replaced them with two more Kami lookalikes (I went with more spirits, because there is some synergy and antisynergy out there for that tribe, for example Rend Flesh) and two Marrow Bats to get some more redundancy of the combo pieces. Also, my removal now consists of four StPs. A possible 1-drop that keeps popping into my mind is Blood Celebrant as it can help me fix my mana and can work in place of the Symbol as a combo piece. A flying 4/1 regenerator seems more worthwhile at the moment, though. I have to see how it works out. I also squeezed in the fourth Read the Bones in place of a Swamp. Testing will show wether 23 lnds is enough.
Yes. But I have to get there first. Kitchen Finks is essentially a creature I can "regenerate" for 1 life, by putting a +1/+1 counter on it after it persists back. This makes it a very good blocker, and it's big enough to be a threat to whatever attacks me as well as to an opponent. The Warhammer is to undo all my self-inflicted life loss in the early game, as well as a means to get through with a big creature. After all, gaining "infinte" life is just a means to an end, I still have to win the game somehow. And that way is by attacking with large creatures. With an older version of the original deck I had many games where my large creatures were simply chump blocked turn after turn. There is also the possibility, that the combo won't go off, either by me not getting all the pieces together, or by an opponent disrupting it. I may also not have an Unspeakable Symbol by that time, and measly 1/1s and 2/2s won't cut it. "Measly" 4/1s and 5/2s with trample are much more of a threat.
In essence, the two cards are good by themseles but also have synergy with the rest of the deck. For example, Marrow Bats with a Hammer is a selfsustaining engine and no one can ignore a regenerating 7/1 lifelink trample flyer for long.
Hi all,
I've been musing for a long time now about a change to one of my decks built around Unspeakable Symbol by including some copies of Transcendence. I recently got my hands on a full playset of that enchantment, so of course my mind is at it again. Problem is, I'm still missing that "perfect" third card for the "infinite" life combo, namely, the one that gets rid of Transcendence so that I can let all those life gain triggers resolve and go beyond 20 life without losing the game.
My best ideas right now are Auratog and Kami of Ancient Law (and its many functional identical brethren). However, I feel like I can do better. Yet, since I can't really define what "better" would mean for the deck, I'm having trouble searching the gatherer for the card to best all others in this regard. So maybe someone here has that ingenious idea that eludes me?
Criteria:
1) The card must fit a w/b deck.
2) The card must be able to remove Transcendence from the battlefield at a moment's notice (= instant timing).
3) It must do so requiring as little mana as possible, since Transcendence is likely to use up all my mana during the turn I play it (almost certainly all my white mana), and I don't want to give my opponent a whole turn to do nasty stuff with it on the field.
4) The card should be useful on its own. The more options it gives me the better.
5) I would like the card to be a creature, because the deck has been wanting for creatures ever since its first incarnation, and any changes to the deck are almost guaranteed to cut into the creature base. However, this is not strictly nessessary, but would certainly be a huge pro for the card.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Daru Sanctifier would let you respond to split second, so your opponent couldn't for example, use Sudden Spoiling to turn off your creature to prevent you from destroying Transcendence.
Mangara of Corondor needs to lose summoning sickness, but doesn't cost any mana to activate.
Necrotic Sliver doesn't cost any white mana.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Seal of Cleansing: Kami, but not a creature
Patrician's Scorn: I know this card exists from playing Ad Nauseam lol
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
There really aren't that many black cards that let you sacrifice an enchantment. Mostly it's sacrificing creatures, sacrificing lands, or the result of some effect (eg, "when ~ is dealt damage") instead of a cost, so it's not something you can do at instant speed without adding another card to the mix.
Also, adding to the list of options:
Faith Healer will let you add 6 onto the amount of life you gain from the Transcendence triggers. (Of course, since we're talking "gain an arbitrary amount of life", adding 6 doesn't mean too much.) Renounce would function similarly in this deck.
Pious Evangel can be a soul sister or blood artist. Also lets you pay for more Unspeakable Symbol activations if you haven't drawn Transcendence yet.
Aura of Silence is pretty good artifact/enchantment hate, and can get rid of your Transcendence for free.
Teferi's Care and Arenson's Aura are functionally identical enchantment hate.
Infernal Tribute for card draw.
Claws of Gix for 1 generic mana total required to sacrifice the Transcendence.
Synod Sanctum can let you hide away Transcendence for later.
Despotic Scepter doesn't have a ton of use beyond this kind of interaction (or Threaten effects), but it's super cheap, so worth mentioning.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
First, the deck that this is based on:
7 Plains
13 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
1 Caves of Koilos
Creatures (18)
4 Children of Korlis
4 Vault Skirge
3 Mourning Thrull
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Necrotic Sliver
2 Path to Exile
2 Temporal Isolation
2 Spirit Loop
4 Unspeakable Symbol
3 Beseech the Queen
2 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Damnation
1 Wrath of God
And this is what the Transcendence version looks like at the moment:
7 Plains
10 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
3 Caves of Koilos
Creatures (19)
4 Children of Korlis
4 Vault Skirge
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Felidar Cub
1 Keening Apparition
1 Ronom Unicorn
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Path to Exile
2 Temporal Isolation
3 Read the Bones
4 Unspeakable Symbol
2 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Transcendence
With a much heavier focus on white mana, Beseech the Queen became worse than Diabolic Tutor most of the time, a card I don't want to run, so I cut it to make some room. I'd like to get some copies of Read the Bones into the deck for digging power.
(Edit: I decided to cut into the life gain portion of the deck, since comboing out will give me all the life I could ever need. So now I have 3 Read the Bones for digging, replacing the sole remaining Mourning Thrull and the two Spirit Loops. I should probably try to add the fourth copy as well.)
Damnation and Wrath of God were meta game choices when I last tinkered with the deck, but right now, I want to get the combo going. Meta game specifics can wait. I also have a bunch of other white and/or black sweepers available should they become nessessary.
Sadly, only two copies of PtE available for the forseeable future. Temporal Isolation was a sort of replacement for the missing two copies.
Playsets of Godless Shrine and Caves of Koilos are available for fixing this color intensive build. Other dual lands, not so much. They should suffice for now. I've gone up to three copies of the Caves, ut went down from 25 to 24 lands despite the increases of the mana curve. I think, the 25th land was a remainder of a previous 61 or 62 card test version. But I might have to add it again to get to 6 mana faster, we'll see. The deck should work well enough with 24 lands for testing purposes.
I went full out on the Transcendence combo with a full playset, because I might as well dive in completely. The combo will be a major focus now after all.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Well, I am using it, kinda. The ones in the deck are called Kami of Ancient Law. And there are a bunch of other functionally identical cards, enough really, to load up the deck with like 20 or so. The question is, how many should I run, and what to cut for them.
Edit: But I might mix those up a bit, running several 1-ofs of them instead of a playset of one, in order to weaken hate cards like Cranial Extraction or Extirpate. It will have only a very small impact, but it doesn't cost me anything.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Does this have to be Modern legal for some reason? Why 2 PtE and 2 Temporal Isolation instead of 4 Swords to Plowshares? You can even hit your own creature in a pinch to gain infinite life or avoid losing the game.
For a 3-card combo with 4-of each copy, you might have trouble assembling it with only 3 Read the Bones and no tutors. Enlightened Tutor? Idyllic Tutor? Academy Rector?
In my experience, yes. The trample has been very important many times, and the +3 power boost is also quite significant. The two Warhammers replaced the other two Loops a long time ago, and I never regreted it.
The deck isn't Modern legal as neither of the two main pieces is in a Modern legal set. PtE was simply the best removal at my disposal at the time. Interestingly, I never had any reason to aquire some StPs in the past, so I currently don't own any. But you have a point. Unlike many other decks of mine, this one can really use StP.
Well, trying to squeeze in a fourth copy of Read the Bones is at the top of my wish list right now. The only card I really need to get rather early is Unspeakable Symbol as the deck works even without Transcendence (though a lot better with, of course). Academy Rector looks interesting as a tutor, I will look into it.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4557651&postcount=1
TheWarden's Creative Commons Music Pick Project (Retired):
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=336498
It's important, that the means to remove Transcendence works with instant timing, because there are many life gain triggers on the stack, and I have to get rid of the enchantment before they resolve. So all those sorcery timing cards are out.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
7 Plains
9 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
3 Caves of Koilos
Creatures (19)
4 Vault Skirge
2 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Felidar Cub
2 Keening Apparition
1 Ronom Unicorn
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Marrow Bats
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Read the Bones
4 Unspeakable Symbol
2 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Transcendence
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
In essence, the two cards are good by themseles but also have synergy with the rest of the deck. For example, Marrow Bats with a Hammer is a selfsustaining engine and no one can ignore a regenerating 7/1 lifelink trample flyer for long.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)