Hello all! I'm looking to build a few decks to teach my children to play Magic. My oldest is 4 right now, I'd like to start teaching her next year (or at worst when she's 6), but I'm getting a head start to have some time to pick up the necessary cards and tune the decks a little bit. I'd like the decks to be simple, fun to play against each other and flavorful. Since they'll be for kids, I would prefer to keep the budget fairly low, but I'm not opposed to throwing in a few 3-4$ cards if they're likely to really strike a chord with my children.
For the sake of simplicity, I'm thinking mono-colored decks, mostly based on creatures. However, I don't want the games to devolve into massive board stalls, so a little bit of removal and some evasion on creatures would be welcome. I've started putting together a summary of what each color does, in an attempt to build decks that will be more or less representative of each color's identity. Decklists would be greatly appreciated, but also just simple cards that I can use to build the decks myself would be excellent. Unfortunately my knowledge of the card pool is not deep enough to come up with 60 card decks full of easy to understand cards, so I'm turning to the community for help. Below I will list the types of cards I'm looking for along with an example or two to get the ball rolling in the right direction. Thanks very much in advance to anyone who can lend a hand to this project!
Simple spells to convey color identity: Giant Growth, Lightning Bolt, Unsummon
Epic spells with splashy but easy to understand effects: Might of Oaks, Overrun, Fact or Fiction
Also if anyone has any experience building decks for kids/beginners, I'd love some input of the "skeleton" I've put together, which is as follows:
I'll be happy to provide any further details concerning what I have in mind if anyone wants them in order to help, but for now I'll leave it at this since this post is already long and I tend to venture into wall-of-text territory when I'm enthusiastic about something!
I did a similar project about three years ago for my gaming club, using the club's own card collection. It limited me a lot, since the collection wasn't nearly as large as my own, but I ended up with 5 monocolored lists, that are all about equal in power, and play well against each other. I saved the lists simply because a lot of effort went into them (building, tuning, and playtesting). The actual forum thread doesn't exist anymore (it went into Nirvana along with the rest of the official Wizard forums a year ago), sadly, so I cannot link you to it to look at the process. But I can give you the final lists as an inspiration:
This deck highlighted green's ablity for mana ramp to get big creatures out earlier. It also uses several simple enhancing methods, so that the player can experience their pros and cons. Like all the other decks below, it has some nice synergies for the player to discover (like enchanting a regenrator with Lure, or putting a Horned Helm on a large creature) to show that card interactions can be much more powerful than the sum of their parts.
The control deck of the bunch. It uses library manipulation, card draw, and counterspells, many Wall like creatures and a big finisher. The classical make up for this type of deck.
This deck has a focus on graveyard interactions as well as sacrifice and simple creature destruction, the trademarks of black, along with some other commn black abilities. It contains a nice synergystic loop with Skull Catapult and two of either Gravedigger or Myr Servitor, which allows for a 2 damage shot every turn without spending a card.
This deck was the hardest for me to assemble, because white has so many different things it can do. In the end went with a first strike theme, along some other iconic white stuff. The synergies buried here are first strike with power enhancements, and preventing combat damage after first strike damage is done, making your creatures deal combat damage but not the opponent's.
The decks were designed to be beginner friendly, but were also meant as a base for a new player to tinker. So they didn't use the best of the best cards available in my club's card pool. In fact, I had to trim down the white deck's power to level more with the other four.
When building your own beginner decks, keep about 23-24 lands, less makes it more likely to get mana screwed. While mana flood isn't much fun either, it isn't nearly as frustrating as the opposite, so err more on the side of a flood. Also, don't restrict yourself to a set formula for all the decks. Instead set yourself a goal as to what the deck is about and what its main goals are, then choose cards accordingly. The different deck archetpes aren't bound to any color or color combination, but they need different setups, so the creature to noncreature ratio differs, etc. Furthermore, don't build the best of the best, but rather aim for a good base. A good beginner deck shows possibilities and gives the player hints as to how to make the deck more powerful, as well as different directions where he/she can take the deck. A beginner doesn't have the experience to decide which of two incomparable cards is better for a deck, but he/she can quite easily see a power upgrade when comparing a vanilla creature to a similar french vanilla creature.
Wow thanks a lot, this is going to be a super helpful base to spring off of. About my ratios, they're not set in stone at all, I just wanted to give myself some kind of jumping off point that made sense, and then tweak it as I build the decks. I've read a few articles about teaching kids/beginners to play, and there were several things which they recommended against that you used in your decks, so I'd like to get some insight on how these things were perceived by the kids which you taught:
- Were counterspells off-putting at all? I know I like them, but I've read in several places that it can be really frustrating for beginners to realize that the cool card they've been looking to cast doesn't get to enter the battlefield, because my card says "NO"
- Were activated abilities on creatures confusing, especially those that require tapping? Did the kids find it frustrating or difficult to choose between using those abilities and simply attacking with the creatures?
- What about non-basic lands? Did the kids appreciate having more options with them, or was it unfun for them to come into play tapped to reap "marginal" benefits (you and me can tell cycling on a land is good in case of flood, but would a beginner see it this way?)
- Are there any other general tips and tricks you remember that helped make the teaching easier? What things did the kids enjoy the most and the least? Also what age group were these decks built for?
Thanks again for your help, this is definitely a push in the right direction. I'd been struggling with themes that were simple yet fun for the decks, and yours are pretty spot-on, I just might steal a few!
The decks were built for older beginners, not little kids. As such, the cards could be a bit more complicated. Personally, I think, children are a lot smarter about these things then adults give them credit for. They just have to be easily understandable. So while you should avoid super complex cards and cards with lots and lots of rules text, you shouldn't restrict yourself too much either.
You have to present your kids with something they can be smart about. For example, when you play a vanilla creaure you can only attack and block with it, and that's pretty much it. There's not much you can be smart about. Otoh, a creature with an ability offers more uses, and if it is a tap ablity, you have to consider wether attacking with it or tapping it for its ability is the better course of action, and the timing is also relevant. You have to spinkle your decks with such things, that hint at the depth of the game, without throwing them into the deep waters right away. Just be moderate about it.
On nonbasic lands, you should include a few, in my opinion. Just by including them in such a preconstructed deck, a beginner gets to play with them, gets to experience their pros and cons. Even if they are just playing them anyway, they get to wonder, why these lands aren't just basics instead. Of course, this only works, if the deck is solidly built, where every card has its function. Because then, those lands must have a function as well, must be somehow better than basics.
Counterspells are a part of the game, and an important weapon in blue's arsenal. So I think it's best to let a beginner encounter them right away, so that they don't come as a nasty surprise. Yes, it can be frustrating to have your awesome/gamesaving spell get countered (that I know from countless personal experiences), but it also feels quite awesome to have the means to stop such a game breaking spell. And it feels really good to successfully bait the opponent to waste their only answer on a less important spell, only to follow it up with your game breaker. My blue deck contains 8 counterspells, and that may be a bit much, but I had beginners love this kind of game play from the get go. So while you could cut down on counterspells a bit, I don't think, that keeping them out entirely is a good idea.
Thanks a ton for your feedback! I just spent a good chunk of my afternoon brewing a green deck with the focus that your post gave me. If you're so inclined, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I already had pump spells in mind (loved those when I was younger) and I stole your idea of ramp. The pay-off of the deck is trample (I'm going to try to give each color some kind of evasion so that games don't end in board stalls), and I threw in some Spiders with Reach because I expect my finishers in Blue and White to be fliers (and probably a miser's Shivan Dragon in the red deck), so I didn't want the deck to be completely cold to that. Any advice is appreciated, I'm normally a deck tuner, not a builder, so it's entirely possible that my curve is completely messed up and non-functional. As soon as I have a second deck brewed up I'm going to throw them together on cockatrice and play them vs. each other to see if they play alright.
I tried to keep it flavorful too so it's engaging, so it has lots of elves and spiders, some cool looking beasts and couple centaurs (she LOVES horses).
Looks quite good actually, as a deck to teach someone. Still, I think, you can do better in some regards.
For example, since the deck is about ramping to big creatures with trample, you should run a few more creatures that are naturally big and already have trample, like the Rootbreaker Wurm. Though I would upgrade that as well to Duskdale Wurm or Plated Crusher. Or run a few Vulpine Goliaths for a slightly less expensive creature. (At this point in the game, 1 extra mana equals about three turns waiting.) And I would add a single copy of a creature that seems like an unstoppable juggernaut to get your kids excited when they draw it. I was thinking something like Silvos, Rogue Elemental, Kalonian Behemoth, Plated Slagwurm, Pelakka Wurm, or Terra Stomper (that one can reduce the fear of counterspells, because hey, it can't be countered!), a creature that is so over the top compared to the rest of the deck, that it inspires awe. That is where Goliath Spider fails. 8 mana is a lot, and the deck doesn't have enough ramp to reach that high. And for what? A simple 7/6 with an at that point rather unremarkable ability.
Another thing I would change is the Defiant Elf. Trample is really useless on a small creature, you have to make it big in order to matter at all. I'm sure you kids can figure that out. But a ramp and fatty deck isn't the kind of deck where you want to implement a Voltron subtheme, you simply don't have the room. Ramping to fatties and building a big Voltron creature both require card slots dedicated for doing just that. So there's less room for the other stuff the deck needs. Better to make Voltron into its own deck, maybe a white equipment deck. You also don't want to overload the deck with too many different themes. I kind of did that with my decks to show what the colors are able to do, but it isn't that much of a problem there, since I was building for older players. For kids, I think, it's better to keep a closer focus on one theme.
I also had another thought about lands. A big part of Magic is tweaking your decks. Exchanging cards in a tightly packed deck, however, is hard even for seasoned deckbuilders, I believe it will be even harder for children. Having slightly more lands in the deck than needed allows them to simply put in some more cards without breaking the mana balance of the deck. No one wants to add more lands, lands are boring, but they are nessessary. Going a bit above 60 cards is no big deal if you're just playing casually, and giving your kids a deck that can compensate for a few extra cards lets them play and experiment without having to think too much about boring lands.
There are ways to compensate a mana flood and lessen the frustration of drawing yet another land. Maybe you should try to add one or two cards that can do this, like Ursapine or Elder of Laurels. I'd avoid token creation for now, though, but you should adress that at some point.
Funny fact, that Goliath Spider was originally a Pelakka Wurm, but it seemed TOO unstoppable, like I would never have wanted to cast it against her if I was playing the Green deck because there's no coming back from that. Upon reflection though, the excitement value might be worth it, and I can just not cast my giant finisher too often if I happen to draw it so she doesn't get discouraged. Now I'm going to have to find something equally epic for the other colors too haha!
Aside from that, a few remarks and questions on your suggestions:
- I switched the Rootbreaker Wurms for Duskdales, I must have missed those when I gatherer-searched for big green tramplers
- How many 5cmc+ fatties would you run? I'm all for more fatties, but I don't want her to be stranded with things she can't cast in her hand too often
- I think I'm going to stay away from the more complex fatties for the time being, I don't want to throw too many keywords at her to begin with, there's already going to be a few different ones in each deck. They're all good candidates though, so I'm noting them and I'll probably pick some up so that she can add them in once she's gotten comfortable enough to start making tweaks.
- I see what you mean with the Voltron theme/Defiant Elf. I thought they'd be cool with the pump spells/blanchwood armor, but I'm scaling that back a little bit (more on this below) so I'm now looking for a new 1 drop to fill that slot
- Good point about mana sinks, I'm going to investigate that further
- I don't quite understand your thing about going above 60 cards. Are you saying I should just add more lands so that she can add more creatures without messing up the balance? That whole paragraph got me a little confused hahaha
Now some notes from my own playtesting, I goldfished the deck a little bit yesterday and came to the following conclusions:
- Too many awkward openers, full of 3 drops and Giant Growths and nothing to do on turns 1 and 2. I cut back Growth to 2 (still a fun effect that represents what green does, so I do want to keep a few), and cut the Blanchwood Armors (as per your Voltron theme comment)
- Since the focus is now even more on ramping to fatties (or a big boardstate + Overrun), I've augmented the ramp package a little bit, going to 4 Wood Elves/3 Cultivate. I'm debating whether I should add another ramp spell or two, probably at 2cmc to help smooth things over a little bit
- I got flooded A LOT, and since I'm putting in more ramp, I cut 1 forest, (now 20 forest/2 treetop village)
- Garruk's Companion was one of the first cards I put in the deck, it plays perfectly with the theme. Having played it now though, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't actually too good. I know a kid might not pick up on this right away, but yesterday I found it to be the best thing I could be doing under 6cmc pretty much all the time, so I was never incentivized to play my 3-4 drops if I could play him instead. So now I don't know if he's too good, the other cards around it are too bad, or if it just doesn't matter haha
- My changes helped a bit, but the curve still seems a bit wonky. I'm actually going to do some research on mana curves as soon as I have time to figure out what I should be doing. This is the first deck I've ever built completely from scratch so I'm still struggling to strike a balance
Lastly, a more general question, how do you feel about my numbers? By that I mean, I tried to build the deck without too many 4-of's because I figured to a kid, drawing several of the same thing isn't that exciting, even if it's good. At the same time, I don't want to go too far in the other direction for 2 reasons:
a) with too many different cards, the deck might become incoherent. Obviously this is not a competitive deck, but it still needs to accomplish its goal a reasonable amount of the time to be fun to play
b) having too many different cards might result in information overload. It'll be a lot easier to remember what each card does if there aren't too many different cards in the deck.
Do you have any thoughts on which direction to go to strike a balance of variety without injecting too much complexity?
I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but thanks again for all your input, it's really helping me a ton!
Funny fact, that Goliath Spider was originally a Pelakka Wurm, but it seemed TOO unstoppable, like I would never have wanted to cast it against her if I was playing the Green deck because there's no coming back from that. Upon reflection though, the excitement value might be worth it, and I can just not cast my giant finisher too often if I happen to draw it so she doesn't get discouraged. Now I'm going to have to find something equally epic for the other colors too haha!
Aside from that, a few remarks and questions on your suggestions:
- I switched the Rootbreaker Wurms for Duskdales, I must have missed those when I gatherer-searched for big green tramplers
- How many 5cmc+ fatties would you run? I'm all for more fatties, but I don't want her to be stranded with things she can't cast in her hand too often
- I think I'm going to stay away from the more complex fatties for the time being, I don't want to throw too many keywords at her to begin with, there's already going to be a few different ones in each deck. They're all good candidates though, so I'm noting them and I'll probably pick some up so that she can add them in once she's gotten comfortable enough to start making tweaks.
- I see what you mean with the Voltron theme/Defiant Elf. I thought they'd be cool with the pump spells/blanchwood armor, but I'm scaling that back a little bit (more on this below) so I'm now looking for a new 1 drop to fill that slot
- Good point about mana sinks, I'm going to investigate that further
- I don't quite understand your thing about going above 60 cards. Are you saying I should just add more lands so that she can add more creatures without messing up the balance? That whole paragraph got me a little confused hahaha
Now some notes from my own playtesting, I goldfished the deck a little bit yesterday and came to the following conclusions:
- Too many awkward openers, full of 3 drops and Giant Growths and nothing to do on turns 1 and 2. I cut back Growth to 2 (still a fun effect that represents what green does, so I do want to keep a few), and cut the Blanchwood Armors (as per your Voltron theme comment)
- Since the focus is now even more on ramping to fatties (or a big boardstate + Overrun), I've augmented the ramp package a little bit, going to 4 Wood Elves/3 Cultivate. I'm debating whether I should add another ramp spell or two, probably at 2cmc to help smooth things over a little bit
- I got flooded A LOT, and since I'm putting in more ramp, I cut 1 forest, (now 20 forest/2 treetop village)
- Garruk's Companion was one of the first cards I put in the deck, it plays perfectly with the theme. Having played it now though, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't actually too good. I know a kid might not pick up on this right away, but yesterday I found it to be the best thing I could be doing under 6cmc pretty much all the time, so I was never incentivized to play my 3-4 drops if I could play him instead. So now I don't know if he's too good, the other cards around it are too bad, or if it just doesn't matter haha
- My changes helped a bit, but the curve still seems a bit wonky. I'm actually going to do some research on mana curves as soon as I have time to figure out what I should be doing. This is the first deck I've ever built completely from scratch so I'm still struggling to strike a balance
Lastly, a more general question, how do you feel about my numbers? By that I mean, I tried to build the deck without too many 4-of's because I figured to a kid, drawing several of the same thing isn't that exciting, even if it's good. At the same time, I don't want to go too far in the other direction for 2 reasons:
a) with too many different cards, the deck might become incoherent. Obviously this is not a competitive deck, but it still needs to accomplish its goal a reasonable amount of the time to be fun to play
b) having too many different cards might result in information overload. It'll be a lot easier to remember what each card does if there aren't too many different cards in the deck.
Do you have any thoughts on which direction to go to strike a balance of variety without injecting too much complexity?
I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but thanks again for all your input, it's really helping me a ton!
- How many 5cmc+ fatties would you run? I'm all for more fatties, but I don't want her to be stranded with things she can't cast in her hand too often
It's hard to give exact numbers. Enough to get at least one fatty for 6+ mana per game, I think, so around 4-5 for that. I'd also include several midrange fatties for 4-5 mana.
- I think I'm going to stay away from the more complex fatties for the time being, I don't want to throw too many keywords at her to begin with, there's already going to be a few different ones in each deck. They're all good candidates though, so I'm noting them and I'll probably pick some up so that she can add them in once she's gotten comfortable enough to start making tweaks.
Good thinking. In that regard, I'd include only three different types of fatties: 1) big and dumb without any abilities, but bigger than other creatures of the same cost in the deck, 2) creatures that only have reach, 3) creatures that only have trample. And of course, the one epic creature that can be a bit more complex. For example, for 4 mana, I'd put in some Rumbling Baloths, Tangle Mantises, and Giant Spiders.
- I don't quite understand your thing about going above 60 cards. Are you saying I should just add more lands so that she can add more creatures without messing up the balance? That whole paragraph got me a little confused hahaha
Basically yes. It was just a thought on how to make tweaking the deck easier for your kids by removing some of the complex thinking this usually requires.
- Too many awkward openers, full of 3 drops and Giant Growths and nothing to do on turns 1 and 2. I cut back Growth to 2 (still a fun effect that represents what green does, so I do want to keep a few), and cut the Blanchwood Armors (as per your Voltron theme comment)
Actually, I think, 3 copies of Giant Growth would be the best number.
- Since the focus is now even more on ramping to fatties (or a big boardstate + Overrun), I've augmented the ramp package a little bit, going to 4 Wood Elves/3 Cultivate. I'm debating whether I should add another ramp spell or two, probably at 2cmc to help smooth things over a little bit
- Garruk's Companion was one of the first cards I put in the deck, it plays perfectly with the theme. Having played it now though, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't actually too good. I know a kid might not pick up on this right away, but yesterday I found it to be the best thing I could be doing under 6cmc pretty much all the time, so I was never incentivized to play my 3-4 drops if I could play him instead. So now I don't know if he's too good, the other cards around it are too bad, or if it just doesn't matter haha
It probably a better idea to put more ramping on the 1-2 mana slots. You could add another mana elf, like Elvish Mystic, for more than 4 mana dorks at 1 mana. You can also run Rampant Growth or Nature's Lore at 2 mana. With that, you get more emphasis on 3-4 mana creatures. You can also take the same approach of adding a slightly different creature, bigger but dumber, namely Kalonian Tusker.
Lastly, a more general question, how do you feel about my numbers? By that I mean, I tried to build the deck without too many 4-of's because I figured to a kid, drawing several of the same thing isn't that exciting, even if it's good. At the same time, I don't want to go too far in the other direction for 2 reasons:
a) with too many different cards, the deck might become incoherent. Obviously this is not a competitive deck, but it still needs to accomplish its goal a reasonable amount of the time to be fun to play
b) having too many different cards might result in information overload. It'll be a lot easier to remember what each card does if there aren't too many different cards in the deck.
Do you have any thoughts on which direction to go to strike a balance of variety without injecting too much complexity?
Actually, I do, and it ties into some of what I said in this post already. There are many funtionally identical or nearly identical cards, that pretty much only differ in name and artwork. Like Llanowar Elves/Elvish Mystic, or Stampeding Rhino/Fangren Hunter. You could also run a Rootbreaker Wurm alongside a Duskdale Wurm for a bit of easy to see better/worse card comparision. Different artwork, different names, different creature types, slightly different power/toughness, these are all things that introduce variety without adding complexity or sacrificing consistency.
Edit:
One more thought I had just now: The deck can easily run out of cards in hand to cast, putting the player into top deck mode. That's not so bad in and of itself, but your kids will appreciate the ability to draw more cards so that they get to play more stuff. Enter Harmonize as a very easy to understand effect with obvious benefits. Maybe add two cpies if you can fit them in.
So, I smoothed out the curve, and made quite a few decisions in the process, namely:
- Cut the Spider/Reach theme. I got to a point where I only had room for 2-3 Spiders and then they felt random rather than cohesive with the deck. It does mean the deck can no longer deal with Fliers (I also cut the Epic Confrontations for similar reasons) but after goldfishing it for a bit, I think it's better that way. The deck is surprisingly strong and consistently builds either a wide board or presents a scary fatty, and with all the trample running around seems like it will end games in relatively short order. At that point, if it can also deal with fliers, there's not much my other beginner decks will be able to throw at it that will stop it in its tracks (I won't be including Wrath of God or such in the other decks for now haha!)
- Threw in 2 Elvish Mystics and 2 Harmonize. I'd actually considered those cards but thought having 2 cards with different names and art that do the exact same thing might seem strange to a kid, and I couldn't find room for Harmonize.
- Made the ramp package easier to access, with 6x 1 mana dorks, 4x Rampant Growth and 4x Wood Elves. I wanted to keep Wood Elves even though it's 3 cmc ramp because it plays well into the deck's goal of building up an army (for eventual overruns) while ramping, and even brings the land into play untapped which allows her to discover that with the right sequencing she can play more spells in a turn.
- I ended up choosing to keep Garruk's Companion, but change the split to 2 Companion/4 Elvish Visionary to avoid Companion showing up too often and just being too good. Kalonian Tusker was something I'd considered, but it invalidates Centaur Courser even more and I really wanted to keep the centaurs in the deck. With the Revamped creature base, I found GC to be less "always strictly better" anyway, so it's been less of an issue, and it introduces the Trample theme on a smaller creature before all the ramp get her further up the chain.
- I couldn't find the space to put the 3rd Giant Growth back in, but I can always throw it in at a later time if testing shows that it would really be better.
- I also did not find a mana sink I was happy with, they all seemed a bit too complicated for the time being (aside from Treetop Village, which is not much of a mana sink per so but does help). I did note a few that I liked though, and I'll suggest them to my daughter once she's caught on to the game enough that they won't confuse her.
Overall I'm really happy with the result, the deck feels focused and strong without being too complicated. Now I only have to build 4 more hahaha! Thanks again for all your help. If you're not too tired of the project, I'll report back once I have another deck mostly built to get some feedback. Cheers!
I'm certainly up to give advice on your other decks as well.
In regards to this deck, after looking it over, I think, you have a lack of 5 mana creatures. Considering, that you plan to play a mana dork on turn 1, 4 Wood Elves make it quite likely to follow the dork with one of them on turn 2. Given a very realistic chance of getting 3 lands until turn 3, this means, you'll have 5 mana on turn 3 available quite often, but only a single Stampeding Rhino to continue that chain (besides using that mana to play two cheap creatures). Maybe a few more of Arborback Stomper, Spined Wurm/Feral Krushok and/or Hollowhenge Beast/Silverback Ape can solve this. You could lose a Vulpine Goliath and some Rampant Growths, to make room.
I also worry about the absolute lack of answers to flyers now. It means, that this deck has literally no way of dealing with an Air Elemental or other bigger flyer, or even a smaller one, that you might want to add to your other decks. Except being more agressive and attack, of course. Perfectly fine, but still, if your kid is facing such a flyer hitting him/her turn after turn without any hope of taking it down, that'll be kind of a downer. I wouldn't add something as just an answer to flyers, though green has lots of options for that, but maybe consider 1-2 copies of Icy Manipulator or Trip Noose. It adds a bit more complexity, yes, but should still be reasonable. And it adds a strategy element besides playing creatures and attacking with them, because these cards can be used both for offense (tapping down a potential blocker) and defense (keeping a creature from attacking). Another plus is, that it adds artifacts to the deck, something that could be a nice target for some red or white artifact destruction. When I was building my beginner decks, I made sure, that those things were included to a degree, hence why all of my decks have some artifacts/enchantments.
Yeah, I knew I had kind of a hole at 5 mana, but thought the 2 copies of Overrun would compensate. I'll try -1 Vulpine Goliath, -1 Rampant Growth for +2 Spined Wurm and see how that works out. For the flier thing, it's something I'll keep in mind as I build the decks, but for now the fliers I was going to put in are 5cmc or more, by which time this deck is curved out with fatties and the game is pretty much over. Once I have the decks built I'll playtest vs fliers and see how it works out in practice, and see if I need to put something back in to compensate this weakness.
As for artifacts/enchantments, I plan to have a few enchantments in some decks (definitely "anthems" in white) but since I'm hoping to teach her as soon as she can do some basic math for creature combat, I want to keep it simple and also avoid "dead" cards in the deck, like drawing your Shatter with no target for it. I plan to introduce this at a later time. One other thing to consider is that we are not native english speakers at home, but my cards are in english. Therefore I want to keep the card functions simple so that she can memorize most of them. She'll learn english as a second language but probably won't be able to read it well enough for another few years. That's part of the reason I liked focusing on keywords too, even if she can't "read" them, she'll eventually recognize the words and know what they mean, which she can't do with more extensive rules text.
I threw together a red deck, but in a few practice games vs. the green deck, it just get curb-stomped really hard. It's a fairly simple design based around haste and burn spells, with goblins for flavor and a Shivan Dragon as an epic finisher. Here's the list as it is now:
I might have just not been lucky, but I got mana screwed a lot, could not deal with the fatties the green deck ramped into, and wasn't fast enough to get in under them. I'm also unsure that Shivan Dragon is epic enough compared to Pelakka Wurm, and I couldn't think of an epic red spell that just wins the game like I had in green with Overrun. I think the shell has potential but it needs some love haha!
I think, the main reason why the red deck cannot stand up to the green one is the quite large amount of card advanage the later generates. It is able to pull up to 19 additional cards from the deck after all (half of them lands but still). Add the fact, that the red deck often needs to trade 2-for-1 to kill a fatty and that disparity grows.
If I had to choose a single easy to understand and iconic ability in red, I'd go with firebreathing (after Firebreathing). It's not an actual keyword, but many people I know and I myself as well, treat it as one. If you inlcude a bunch of different creatures that have that ability, your kid can easily recognize the ability just by looking at the cost, pay one R to make this creature stronger for a turn, do this as often as you want. It also acts as an evasion ability simply by threat of pumping mana into it and taking any potential blocker down. It also allows the weaker red ceatures to at least trade 1:1 with their much bigger green counterparts. Fiery Hellhound, Flame Spirit, Flamekin Brawler, etc. are simply creatures but they can invoke that fiery spirit of red. The Shivan Dragon ties nicely into this.
In regards to the burn spells, I'd avoid instants and sorceries with the same effect for the same cost, like Volcanic Hammer and Lightning Strike. In that example, I would either keep Volcanic Hammer as the only 2-mana burn spell, or use a combination of Lightning Strike and Searing Spear while cutting the Hammer. The reason for this is, that I suspect your kid to often try to cast Volcanic Hammer at non-sorery timing thinking it to be a Lightning Strike. One or two higher costed burn spells which deal a lot of damage, like Explosive Impact or Spreading Flames would at least give the deck a chance to burn a fatty away. I was also thinking about adding a single copy of Inferno. Yes, you said you didn't ant to run sweepers, but this spells is just so epic yet simple. Burn Everything! It might give the deck the breather it sometimes needs.
As always, these are really good ideas. Frankly, I hadn't even realized a bunch of common creatures would have firebreathing, I'll have to do more research and see how many decent ones I can dig up. I agree about the Volc Hammer/Lightning Strike thing. I wanted to have some of the burn be sorcery speed to simplify things and just ran out of decent 2cmc spells, so I ended up with that split, but I can't say I'm too happy with it either. I'll see of I just give in and make them all instants and if I can find another sorcery to complement Volcanic Hammer. I'll consider Inferno, I definitely don't want to play something like Wrath of God in the decks because it's a bit too efficient considering the power level I'm aiming for, but at 6cmc that problem kind of solves itself, it damages players which advances the deck's plan A, and it is pretty flavorful. I'll just have to see the fact that it burns the caster as well ends up being detrimental more often than not.
Do you think I should keep a bit of the haste theme in? It's fairly simple, very red, and I remember loving Ball Lightning as a younger player, it represents so much potential damage for just 3 mana! I'm going to be really busy over the next few days so it might take a bit longer than usual, but I'll definitely report back once I've implemented some changes and come up with a new iteration of the deck.
One last question, purely out of curiosity: how is it that you know so many "bad" cards. Don't get me wrong, your suggestions have been spot on for what I'm trying to do, but they're not exactly tournament all stars. I consider myself as having a pretty decent knowledge of the card pool; I could probably rattle off the cost/rules text of most Modern/Legacy staples, but I've found it difficult to come up with the sort of draft-level commons these decks need. Are you a much better gatherer-search ninja than I am, or is there another secret behind this deep knowledge?
A bit of haste probably won't hurt. But Ball Lightning is actually a card I wouldn't include. It's essentially just a high damage spell, but the actual damage it will do is unpredictable. A simpler card like Bathe in Dragonfire should be more consistent. But randomness is in the realm of red, so Ball Lighning isn't out of place here. There are haste creature with firebreathing, that you may want to include: Pyre Charger, Furnace Spirit, etc. So including haste will also increase your firebreathing options.
One last question, purely out of curiosity: how is it that you know so many "bad" cards. Don't get me wrong, your suggestions have been spot on for what I'm trying to do, but they're not exactly tournament all stars. I consider myself as having a pretty decent knowledge of the card pool; I could probably rattle off the cost/rules text of most Modern/Legacy staples, but I've found it difficult to come up with the sort of draft-level commons these decks need. Are you a much better gatherer-search ninja than I am, or is there another secret behind this deep knowledge?
I have been playing Magic since Onslaught, and bought booster boxes of pretty much every set since then (with a few exceptions). I was so into the game, that I had built dozens of different decks at a time from my evergrowing card collection, tinkering like a maniac. Naturally, I developed an almost encyclopedic knowledge of all the cards I owned and also those that I commonly played against. I was literaly the gatherer search engine equivalent of my playgroup. I could recite the entire texts (plus flavor texts!) of any card, or derive the name of a card simply by a vague description. Then I got into Limited, and got to play even more of the weaker cards in the sets. I actually played with pretty much every card I mentioned in this thread so far, and many more.
Also, yes, my gatherer-fu is excellent, if I dare say so myself. My Magic fanatism has cooled down over the last years and my card knowledge isn't as fantastic anymore, but I can find almost anything I want, if it exits, using gatherer. When I make these card suggestions, I almost always do a gatherer search for that kind of card beforehand, and select suitable candidates to propose.
I have been playing Magic since Onslaught, and bought booster boxes of pretty much every set since then (with a few exceptions). I was so into the game, that I had built dozens of different decks at a time from my evergrowing card collection, tinkering like a maniac. Naturally, I developed an almost encyclopedic knowledge of all the cards I owned and also those that I commonly played against. I was literaly the gatherer search engine equivalent of my playgroup. I could recite the entire texts (plus flavor texts!) of any card, or derive the name of a card simply by a vague description. Then I got into Limited, and got to play even more of the weaker cards in the sets. I actually played with pretty much every card I mentioned in this thread so far, and many more.
Also, yes, my gatherer-fu is excellent, if I dare say so myself. My Magic fanatism has cooled down over the last years and my card knowledge isn't as fantastic anymore, but I can find almost anything I want, if it exits, using gatherer. When I make these card suggestions, I almost always do a gatherer search for that kind of card beforehand, and select suitable candidates to propose.
Ah, that all makes a lot of sense. I used to know more cards from individual sets when I played standard (almost 15 years ago). Now that I don't have time to keep up with Standard and only play Modern and dabble in Legacy, cards that don't crack those formats often fly under my radar. Also, up until I started building these decks, I'd only ever used gatherer to search cards I already knew to check alternate printings and languages mostly. I'm starting to get the hang of the advanced search, but I'm definitely not a black belt in gatherer-fu.
Anyhow, I've overhauled the red deck. It's definitely better than it was, and has won a few games vs. the green deck, but I still don't feel it's quite where it needs to be. Here's the new list for reference:
So since the deck needed a serious boost in power level, I chose to replace the Volcanic Hammers (which were originally my first choice due to being sorcery) by Lightning Strike. I have 2 extra Lightning Bolts at home too, so I'm trying those out to complement Shock, which is still pretty weak overall (although it might fare better once I build other decks which don't contain enormous creatures). I kept Ball Lightning (even added a 2nd) because I love the flavor and feel of it, but I'm open to cutting it later if it becomes necessary.
I put in a lot a firebreathers, which has made the deck stronger, but also makes it a bit more awkward to decide how to spend your mana (pump vs. develop board/burn spells). I never drew the 1-of Inferno in the few practice games I ran, so I'm unsure as of yet if it's any good. I slotted in Magma Jet at 2cmc because the deck needs help with card flow/selection, so even getting a crappy rate for 2 damage seemed worth it. I also put in 1 Exquisite Firecraft, mostly because it's 3 mana for 4 damage which is a pretty good rate in mono-red. That slot could also be Flames of the Blood Hand. Frankly, both cards have text which is going to be irrelevant a lot of the time which kind of bothers me because it adds useless complexity like 90% of the time, but so far that's where I'm at.
I'm aware that there's a whole at 5 mana on the curve, but since a lot of the creatures are mana sinks I haven't found that to be too problematic thus far. As I said, it's definitely an improvement, but I'd gladly take more suggestions in order to make it a bit better still to bring it closer to 50/50 with the green deck. Also, in trying to make the deck stronger, I've gotten to a point where it contains 0 vanilla creatures. I hope that doesn't end up making it too overwhelming...
As an aside, I've started looking into the white deck (going for a weenies/first strike/glorious anthem theme), hopefully it measures up ok vs the other 2 decks once it's complete. I'll post a list once I have something more concrete put together. Cheers!
There may be a bit too many firebreathers right now. After all, the ability only really works later in the game and is kind of useless early on. I would complement them at the various mana costs with solid vanilla creatures, like Goblin Piker at 2, or Balduvian Barbarians at 3. I would also top of the mana curve at 5, with some of the biggest vanilla creatures red has to offer, like Earth Elemental, Fire Elemental, Bonebreaker Giant, Fomori Nomad, etc. Some creatures, that are good enough to stand against green's fatties, but aren't quite at their level. Big creatures are green's forte after all.
I'm uncertain about wether includig scry is such a good idea. The ability is simple enough for sure, but using it correctly, that's a lot harder. Your initial inclusion of Arc Lightning was a good idea, in my opinion, since it is a way for the deck to reap some card advantage, especially if green loads up the board with 1/1s. You could introduce your damage instants as "deal X damage to target creature/player", and your sorceries as "deal X damage divided among several targets". There is Forked Bolt at 1 mana, Flames of the Firebrand at 3 (if you want to add some variety to Arc Lightning), and Pyrotechnics at 5, along with Spreading Flames at 7, which I mentioned before. If you really want a 4 damage spell at 3 mana, Flame Javelin may be easier to understand and to explain (since in monored, the cost really only is RRR). Lightning Bolt is the pinacle of efficiency for red damage spells, it may be a better idea to leave it out for now. In general, it's probably a good idea to let all those spells hit creatures and players, just to avoid confusion about who/what can be hit by what.
Raging Goblin loses value really fast, and this deck is not going for aggro that hard. Another 1-drop with more late game relevance, or leaving it out altogether, may not be such a bad idea. How about Goblin Fireslinger instead? That one should be easy enough to understand and will have more impact later on.
As usual, you bring up some very good points. A few comments and questions:
- Goblin Piker was really miserable in my early playtesting because he doesn't survive a block by anything. Red finally got its first Grizzly Bear recently in Falkenrath Reaver, so I'll be trying that.
- If I stop the mana curve at 5 (which makes sense for a red deck, to be fair),it means cutting both Shivan Dragon and Inferno, so what's my exciting epic card?
- I like the idea of instant burn spells having one target and sorcery spells having multiple, it helps differentiate them, I'll be exploring that.
- You're right that scry might be a little more complicated to resolve that I'd realized. The deck really needs help with card flow though. Maybe having the multiple target burn spells with help it re-coup enough card advantage to mitigate this.
- I wasn't thrilled with adding Lightning Bolt either, but the deck needed so much help that even adding 2 bolts wasn't enough. I'll try a few Forked Bolt in that slot, but in the end, getting the decks to be more or less balanced is the most important aspect of all this, so if I have to, I'll put Lightning Bolt back in. Hopefully I can balance the decks without it.
- Goblin Fireslinger is something I hadn't thought of. I went for Raging Goblin because it was a "staple" of my terrible aggro decks when I started playing, but I have also found it lacking in actual games. I Gatherer-searched red 1-drops and a few others caught my eye, how do you feel about Goblin Balloon Brigade, Godo's Irregulars and Somberwald Vigilante ?
- Good call on Flame Javelin, I only searched burn spells up to cmc 4 so that never came up!
- I definitely agree that all the burn spells should hit both creatures and players for power/clarity.
- Goblin Piker was really miserable in my early playtesting because he doesn't survive a block by anything. Red finally got its first Grizzly Bear recently in Falkenrath Reaver, so I'll be trying that.
A piker and a bear aren't that different. So long as it trades with the other creature, a 2/1 or 2/2 has served its purpose in combat. You shouldn't expect either to survive combat. And in red pikers are the norm, a bear is the exception. That's the main reason, why I suggested Goblin Piker over Falkenrath Reaver. As a red vanilla creature, the Reaver is above average for its cost.
- If I stop the mana curve at 5 (which makes sense for a red deck, to be fair),it means cutting both Shivan Dragon and Inferno, so what's my exciting epic card?
Sorry about that, I was in a it of a rush at the time. I didn't mean for you to cut those two cards, but rather that the curve of the other creatures should top out at 5.
- I wasn't thrilled with adding Lightning Bolt either, but the deck needed so much help that even adding 2 bolts wasn't enough. I'll try a few Forked Bolt in that slot, but in the end, getting the decks to be more or less balanced is the most important aspect of all this, so if I have to, I'll put Lightning Bolt back in. Hopefully I can balance the decks without it.
It may also be, that the green deck is just too good at the moment. You could try to power it down a bit if the problem persists. In that regard, maybe exchange Elvish Visionary with Runeclaw Bears or such.
- Goblin Fireslinger is something I hadn't thought of. I went for Raging Goblin because it was a "staple" of my terrible aggro decks when I started playing, but I have also found it lacking in actual games. I Gatherer-searched red 1-drops and a few others caught my eye, how do you feel about Goblin Balloon Brigade, Godo's Irregulars and Somberwald Vigilante ?
I thought, the Irregulars and the Vigilante were a bit too complex for the purpose of the deck. The Balloon Brigade may work, but the ability could be confused with firebreathing due to its cost. Contemplating this a bit, Goblin Arsonist could work nicely and also adds a way to gain some card advanage.
- I decided not to include Goblin Fireslinger (although he might be the most consistent of the 3 options I was considering for pushing through damage) because he broke the burn rule of being able to go after creatures or players
- Goblin Arsonist has been great, he makes blocking awkward because he can often snipe a 1/1 on the way out, or combine with a burn spell to take out bigger creatures
- Similarly, Balloon Brigade being able to gain flying has helped prevent it from being completely irrelevant beyond turn 2 the way Raging Goblin often was, but since it requires spending a little mana, does not feel overpowered
- I cut back on the number of firebreathers but kept a few of the better ones, since they remain relevant late and act as good mana sinks
- I decided to keep Reaver over Piker, although you are absolutely right that it's above average for a red creature of that cost. To expand a bit on the thought process, all the 1/1's from the green deck that Piker was dying to had already generated some value before dying (acceleration from the dorks/Wood Elves, card drawn from Visionary), whereas Piker came into play, attacked once, died immediately and was basically 2 mana wasted most of the time. About Elvish Visionary becoming a Grizzly Bear, it's something I'll keep in mind, although I'm not 100% sure which is actually better in the deck, since it's a beatdown deck and the bear has a more relevant body
- The heavier emphasis on multi-target burn sorceries has been great, it provides flexibility and card advantage and allows the deck to come back from behind a little bit
- I cut the Ball Lightning in favor of 2 Flame Javelin. As you said, BL is basically just a burn spell that doesn't deal a fixed amount, and to help consistency, I figured 4 guaranteed damage might just be better
- I never drew Inferno in the practice games, but given that the deck is faster now and able to push more early damage through, it seems like a good fit, i.e. not too likely to finish yourself off when cast, and able to either win the game or enable a win from a topdecked burn spell later
- Flametongue Kavu is a boss. We never debated this card, I just feel like mentionning it, because I love it, it has a lot of nostalgia value for me, and just happens to be great
So, barring small tweaks, it looks like I've got 2 pretty functional decks!
Here's the shell I've been working on for a white deck. It doesn't have 60 cards for now (50), and I'm looking to plug some holes in the list before I start testing it. Here's what I have so far:
So, the idea here is a good old white weenie deck. The main keyword ability is First Strike, with a little bit of flying thrown in. I know Protection is a bit complicated, but I just might avoid playing this deck vs the black deck until she can understand, and then just break it down to "it can't be hurt by black magic or creatures" which I think is something a kid should be able to wrap her head around. The pay-offs are Glorious Anthem (could have used Honor of the Pure but I think that probably makes the deck too strong) and 3 Angels at the top of the curve. Inspiring Captain is like a 1-turn Anthem, so I feel it's a nice call back. Also, she may not realize it right away, but Capashen Knight sort of has Firebreathing. All the firebreathers in Red (that I included) only cost 1 to activate, whereas this is 2 mana, so it seems fair to bleed it into white at a reduced power level. Since I'm introducing enchantments in this deck with the Anthems, and because I don't want to give the deck insane good removal in like Path to Exile or Swords, I opted for Pacifism. It could also be Journey to Nowhere, but I think "this creature doesn't want to fight anymore" is easier to explain than the whole exile thing.
The are currently no 3-mana creatures, although Glorious Anthem partly fills the 3-drop slot. Ideally, I think the deck needs a few more creatures, a couple of instant/sorcery spells (didn't have much of an idea where I wanted to go with those), and I've kept 2-3 slots for more land, I just haven't decided what to run along with the Plains.
I'll be eager to hear your thoughts on how the Red deck came along and the White shell I have so far. Have a good day!
About Elvish Visionary becoming a Grizzly Bear, it's something I'll keep in mind, although I'm not 100% sure which is actually better in the deck, since it's a beatdown deck and the bear has a more relevant body
The card draw provided by the Visionary is way more relevant than the higher power/toughness of the Bears. Because it provides a body while also digging for the Overrun to profit from that body. Less card advantage will mkae the green deck weaker if you feel the need to power it down. Cards are, after all, the most valuable resource to have in the game.
Flametongue Kavu is a boss. We never debated this card, I just feel like mentionning it, because I love it, it has a lot of nostalgia value for me, and just happens to be great
It sure is great. I think, more copies of it would be too much, but you never put in more than 2. 2 is fine, so I never felt the need to adress this particular card.
In regards to your white deck:
3-4 global damage prevention spells, like Holy Day would work well together with first strike as I mentioned about my own white beginner deck, and could be used to twart a lethal Overrun from the green deck. Forfend would be of more use against red's burn spells, and Safe Passage even includes the player.
For the epic creature, I find Angel of Renewal to be lacking. I too would choose an angel, but my choice would be Angel of Retribution, because it features first strike as the main ability of the deck and is not too over-the-top. Alternatives include Archangel as a bigger version of Serra Angel, and Deathless Angel, which can save other creatures.
Right now, the deck goes more into midrange territory than white weenie aggro, so another land is probably needed.
You haven't build a black deck yet, so pro:black is unproblematic so far. But a black deck along the lines of the ones you've built will literally face an untouchable creature possibly as soon as turn 2 in White Knight. A similar problem would arise with Silver Knight against the red deck. Or with a Paladin en-Vec against both. Protection is, however, iconic for white. So if you want to include some, be sparse, and most importantly, adjust the other decks to at least have a hope of dealing with such a creature. The easiest way to do so is to include some artifact creatures or colorless sources of damage in both the red and black decks. There are a few (french) vanilla artifact creatures that can replace other (french) vanilla creatures in these decks. Examples are Alpha Myr/Bronze Sable/Field Creeper, Stone Golem, Lumengrid Gargoyle/Gold-Forged Sentinel, Obsianus Golem, Phyrexian Hulk, etc.
I'm a bit at a loss for 3-mana creatures for this deck. There are a number of 2/3s and 2/3 flyers, but a vanilla 2/3 seems too underwhelming, and flyers are quite the threat for the other decks right now, so you don't want to run too many of those either. 1/4s and other wall like creatures are too weak on their own. The best choice would be a 3/x first striker, in my opinion, but the only good choice for that is Porcelain Legionnaire, which is more of a 2-drop, and there it is freaking powerful. Maybe add a few Venerable Monks for life gain, or Kemba's Skyguards if the flying isn't too much for you.
So, I've got a first rough draft (that's actually 60 cards) of the white deck. Haven't had time to playtest it yet, I'll report again once I've got a few games in. For now, here's the list:
I went with your suggestions in regards to Holy Day (it seemed simpler/more intuitive than the other 2), Angel of Retribution and the 3 drops (stole Pegasus Charger from your own list, didn't want to put in too much lifegain to avoid crushing the red deck too hard).
I'm not sure about your land count comment, did you mean for me to go with 1 more than was in the list (up to 23) or one more than I suggested (the 22 in the list +3 in my comments +1 more, for 26 total) ? I went with 24 as a middle ground for now. I'd also like to find a non-basic to replace a few plains, but I'd like to keep them varied from deck to deck, any suggestions for white?
I agree about White Knight, but it's just so iconic I wanted to throw a few in. I'm only putting in 2, and I'll address them somehow when I build the black deck. For now that deck is actually the one I least know what I'll do with, so I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
So, I've got a first rough draft (that's actually 60 cards) of the white deck. Haven't had time to playtest it yet, I'll report again once I've got a few games in. For now, here's the list:
I went with your suggestions in regards to Holy Day (it seemed simpler/more intuitive than the other 2), Angel of Retribution and the 3 drops (stole Pegasus Charger from your own list, didn't want to put in too much lifegain to avoid crushing the red deck too hard).
I'm not sure about your land count comment, did you mean for me to go with 1 more than was in the list (up to 23) or one more than I suggested (the 22 in the list +3 in my comments +1 more, for 26 total) ? I went with 24 as a middle ground for now. I'd also like to find a non-basic to replace a few plains, but I'd like to keep them varied from deck to deck, any suggestions for white?
I agree about White Knight, but it's just so iconic I wanted to throw a few in. I'm only putting in 2, and I'll address them somehow when I build the black deck. For now that deck is actually the one I least know what I'll do with, so I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
All 2-color decks in Magic have a name given to them by their association with a “guild” on the plane of Ravnica. Decks made up of the Green/Black color pairing are known as “Golgari”. This deck is the fastest of the three decks; due to the fact the cards within it have a lower average converted mana cost (CMC), most costing 2-3 mana to cast.
A lot of the Elves have small power/toughness, but they are designed to get onto the battlefield quickly to overwhelm your opponents before they can get set up. Nath of the Gilt-Leaf will frustrate your opponent by making them discard a card at the beginning of your turn, and gets you a 1/1 Elf Warrior token in return. Greenweaver Druid helps provide the extra mana you need to keep pumping out creatures to put the pressure on your opponents. Use Wellwisher’s life gaining ability to make up for the fact your opponents creatures are often bigger than yours: you can afford to take some damage from their creatures by not blocking them, if you can gain that life right back! Speaking of gaining life, Essence Warden will gain you a tremendous amount, as you gain 1 life every time a creature comes in to play. If both copies of Essence Warden are out at once, every creature that comes into play will gain you 2 life! This life gaining ability includes your opponent’s creatures as well AND any token creatures that they make. Elvish Archdruid can provide an amazing amount of mana by adding green mana equal to the amount of elves you control (including your Elf tokens), and the Archdruid has the added bonus of making them all power/toughness +1/+1. Imperious Perfect can also add +1/+1 to your Elves, and can make an Elf Warrior token each turn. Scattershot Archer will help keep the opponent running the Blue/Red Thopter deck in check by tapping to do 1 point of damage to their 1/1 flying Thopter’s. Just beware, because those Thopter’s may not stay 1/1’s for very long due to cards such as Favorable Winds or Chief of the Foundry, at which point they are safely out of reach of the Scattershot Archer, so play him as soon as you can. Thornweald Archer’s deathtouch ability will protect you against your opponent’s biggest flyers like Niv-Mizzet or Sharding Sphinx in the Blue/Red deck. Creatures with deathtouch must only do a single point of damage to opposing creatures to kill them, which means that even a small 2/1 creature can bring down an opponents 4/4. You may be tempted to use a Thornweald Archer to block a Thopter token, but that would kill the Thornweald Archer as well, so it’s best to save these guys for your opponent’s biggest threats. Lys Alana Huntmaster will help you make Elf Warrior tokens, and Bramblewood Paragon makes sure that ALL Warriors (not just the tokens) come into play with a +1/+1 counter on them, granting them the trample ability as well. Lys Alana Bowmaster is another card to help to keep Thopter’s in check, as each time you play an Elf, it does 2 points of damage to a creature with flying, which most of the time will be enough to kill them. To round out your complement of creatures, while it’s not an Elf creature but rather a Beast, the deck includes two copies of Rampaging Baloth. A 6/6 creature with trample is fearsome enough, but he has the added benefit of creating 4/4 Beast tokens, just by simply playing a land!
Skyreaping can keep the skies clear of your opponent’s creatures. To determine your “devotion to green”, just count the number of green mana symbols in mana cost of all the creatures and enchantments that you have on the board, and Skyreaping will do that much damage to each flying creature! It is a sorcery card, so keep in mind it can only be played on your turn. Eyeblight Massacre makes all your opponents creatures get -2/-2, which will be enough to kill many of them, and those that aren’t killed immediately by it will be easier to kill with your Elves when you attack. Eyeblight Massacre will also be your best way to deal with Tajic, Blade of the Legion, a creature in the Red/White deck. Tajic has the ability “indestructible”, so he’s very hard to kill, but one way to remove indestructible creatures from the board is to reduce their toughness equal to 0, which kills the creature. Since Tajic is a 2/2, Eyeblight Massacre is enough to kill him! The card Doom Blade is a very easy way to kill any creature that belongs to an opponent. It’s fun to watch your opponent play a creature that costs 5 or 6 mana, then easily remove it with a 2 mana cost spell! It’s an instant so it can be played at almost any time. But remember, just because an opponent has a big creature on the board, if you’re involved in a three player game don’t waste the Doom Blade unless it’s attacking you. If it’s going after your OTHER opponent, let it happen and save the Doom Blade for when you need it most! Combine your Doom Blades and Eyeblight Massacre’s and your various Archers abilities with the enchantment Deathreap Ritual. At the end of ANY turn in which a creature died, you get to draw a card. Note, it’s just one card per turn, no matter how many creatures have died. If you really get in trouble, cast Death Frenzy, which gives all creatures (even your own) -2/-2. This may kill some of your creatures too, but can gain you 1 life for every creature that died.
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood is a land that taps for green mana, but often times its going to be far more useful to tap it instead to add a permanent +1/+1 counter to all green creatures that came into play that turn, even your tokens. Make sure not to tap this until you’re done playing creatures for that turn, or if you’re going to be making any Elf Warrior tokens! You can sacrifice (put into your graveyard) the land Blighted Woodland to search your library and put either a Forest or Swamp into play. Heres a tip: don’t sacrifice Blighted Woodland unless one (or both) of your Rampaging Baloth’s are in play, that way you also get two 4/4 beasts as well!
Finally, if you’ve not overwhelmed your opponents with all your Elves, your best win conditions (known as “win-cons”) are the sorcery Overrun and the creature Shaman of the Pack. There are 2 copies of each of these in the deck. Overrun gives all your creatures +3/+3 and trample until the end of the turn, so don’t cast it until you’ve got enough Elves on the board to take out your opponent(s). Shaman of the Pack does damage to an opponent equal to the number of Elves you have in play. You don’t even need to attack in order to win; simply playing the Shaman can kill an opponent, so make sure not to play them unless you have a good number of Elves on the board!
All 2-color decks in Magic have a name given to them by their association with a “guild” on the plane of Ravnica. Decks that are made up of the Red/Blue color pairing are known as “Izzet”. This deck falls in the middle of the three decks in terms of speed, due to the fact the cards contained have a typical converted mana cost (CMC) of 3 or 4.
This deck uses the power of flying mechanical creatures known as Thopter’s to attack your opponents in the air, thus making them difficult for them to be blocked. A great many of the creatures in the deck also bring a Thopter token along with them when they enter the battlefield, such as Whirler Rogue (he actually brings two tokens!), Aspiring Aeronaut, Thopter Engineer, Ghirapur Gearcrafter, and Pia and Kiran Nalaar, a duo that like the Whirler Rogue puts two Thopter tokens into play when cast. Your force of 1/1 Thopters may not scare your opponents much, but that’s before you play Favorable Winds, an enchantment that gives +1/+1 to all your flying creatures, or a Chief of the Foundry, an artifact creature that adds +1/+1 to other artifact creatures. You also have Gravitational Shift, an enchantment that grants all flying creatures +2 to power only, while simultaneously reducing power -2 to all creatures without flying. This -2 power does also affect your ground-based creatures, so you’ll need to decide when it’s to your advantage to play it. It’s probably worth it to make your few ground-based creatures -2 power if you look across the table and see an army of green Elves or red and white Soldiers coming for you! There are a few other Thopter’s in the deck as well: Pilgrim’s Eye is a flying artifact creature that lets you look through your deck and put an Island or Mountain into your hand, and then there’s the Ornithopter, one of the few cards in the game that has a 0 mana cost. He does come with a drawback though in that his power/toughness is a 0/2, which means if he attacks he’s not doing any damage (but, because of other cards such as Favorable Winds or Chief of the Foundry, Ornithopter can soon start inflicting damage). And, because he has 2 toughness, he’s able to block many of the smaller 1/1 Elves and Soldiers and live! You also have some strong multi-colored cards in the deck: Izzet Staticaster can save you from defeat when cast at the correct time. It’s a creature with Flash, which means it can be cast at any time, even when it’s your opponents turn or when you’re being attacked. Because he has Haste, the Izzet Staticaster can tap and utilize his ability the turn he comes into play. And what an ability it is, too, as tapping him can do 1 damage to a creature and all other creatures with the same name, a great way to deal with Elf Warrior and Soldier tokens. But beware, because those Elf Warrior and Soldier tokens often don’t stay 1/1’s for long, at which point they are out of reach of the Staticaster. Another multi-colored creature is Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Niv-Mizzet is the leader of the entire Izzet guild. A 4/4 dragon, he flies so he can also gain the benefits of Favorable Winds or Gravitational Shift, but he also does one damage to a creature or opponent whenever you draw a card. And, if you don’t want to tap him to attack, he can also be tapped to draw a card, thus doing a second point of damage in the same turn! Your final multi-colored creature is Reclusive Artificer. When he enters the battlefield, he does damage to any creature equal to the number of artifacts you control. This includes all artifacts, such as your Thopter tokens, regular Thopter’s such as Pilgrim’s Eye or Ornithopter, and non-creature artifacts like the Izzet Keyrune, your Silver-Inlaid Dagger’s or your Bident’s of Thassa.
Speaking of these three, your Izzet Keyrune’s are artifacts that can also tap for colored mana, helping you to afford your bigger spells quicker. Artifacts that tap for any kind of mana are referred to as “mana rocks”. This rock can also become a 2/1 artifact creature until the end of the turn. They don’t fly, but as they are artifacts they can have their power and toughness boosted by Chief of the Foundry. The also have one other ability: if, when they act as creatures, they damage an opponent, you have the option of first drawing and then discarding any card. This is what’s called a “may ability”; because it says “you may”; you can choose to do it or not. Drawing a card and immediately having to discard one card is what is known as “looting”, a common form of card draw in the color red. Silver-Inlaid Dagger is an artifact type known as Equipment. After paying the normal mana cost, the card goes on the table. Then you pay the stated Equip cost to attach that card to your creature. The Dagger adds 2 to the power of the creature it’s equipped to, BUT it can add 1 more power when equipped to a creature that’s a Human. Many of the creatures responsible for creating Thopter’s also happen to be humans! One nice thing about equipment is, even if the creature it’s equipped to should be killed, the equipment stays in play on the battlefield, ready to re-equip to the next creature. Your last artifact is the Bident of Thassa. This card acts as both an enchantment and an artifact, so it’s vulnerable to cards that destroy either. However, it can be a great source of card drawing, allowing you to draw cards whenever each of your creatures does combat damage to a player. Don’t forget about Niv-Mizzet’s ability: whenever you draw a card you can do an additional point of damage! So, if he’s on the table when your creatures are doing damage, you’re drawing cards AND doing MORE damage! Note, the Bident is also “Legendary”, which means that even though you have two copies in your deck, because it’s legendary only one copy can ever be out at a time.
Finally you have a few Instants. You can spring a little surprise with Unnerving Assault. It’s an instant, so you can play it at almost any time. You’ll see in the card’s mana cost a symbol that’s half blue and half red. That is referred to as “hybrid” mana, and it means you can cast the card with either red OR blue mana. But, due to what the card does, you get a bonus if you use both red AND blue mana when you cast it. Using both colors reduces you opponent’s creature’s power by 1, while increasing your creature’s power by 1. It can be used when you’re being attacked or when YOU attack, but make sure not to cast it until your opponent has declared their blockers, in order to get the most out of the surprise it’s creating. This card can completely change the outcome of the attack! Your last card is Lightning Bolt. In Magic’s 21 year history, this is considered one of the most powerful instants ever created. It can do 3 points of damage to either a creature or directly to a player. The fact that it costs just 1 red mana is what makes it so strong; it’s efficiency at its highest. You can cast it to do damage to an opponent, but chances are it’s better to use it on a creature. Don’t forget, if a big creature is attacking you (say a 4/4 Beast token, or Nath of the Gilt-Leaf from the green/black deck), you can block with a small 1/1 Thopter creature, then cast Lightning Bolt to do 3 more damage, thereby doing a total of 4 damage and killing your opponents attacker!
For the sake of simplicity, I'm thinking mono-colored decks, mostly based on creatures. However, I don't want the games to devolve into massive board stalls, so a little bit of removal and some evasion on creatures would be welcome. I've started putting together a summary of what each color does, in an attempt to build decks that will be more or less representative of each color's identity. Decklists would be greatly appreciated, but also just simple cards that I can use to build the decks myself would be excellent. Unfortunately my knowledge of the card pool is not deep enough to come up with 60 card decks full of easy to understand cards, so I'm turning to the community for help. Below I will list the types of cards I'm looking for along with an example or two to get the ball rolling in the right direction. Thanks very much in advance to anyone who can lend a hand to this project!
Vanilla Creatures: Grizzly Bear
French Vanilla Creatures: Raging Goblin, Elvish Archers, Garruk's Companion
Creatures with simple ETB effects: Elvish Visionary, Faerie Miscreant
Epic feeling creatures: Serra Angel, Shivan Dragon
Simple spells to convey color identity: Giant Growth, Lightning Bolt, Unsummon
Epic spells with splashy but easy to understand effects: Might of Oaks, Overrun, Fact or Fiction
Also if anyone has any experience building decks for kids/beginners, I'd love some input of the "skeleton" I've put together, which is as follows:
22 basic lands
10 simple spells
2 epic spells
16 simple creatures (vanilla, french vanilla)
8 mid-level creatures (multiple/more complicated keywords, simple ETB effects)
2 epic creatures
I'll be happy to provide any further details concerning what I have in mind if anyone wants them in order to help, but for now I'll leave it at this since this post is already long and I tend to venture into wall-of-text territory when I'm enthusiastic about something!
21 Forest
2 Slippery Karst
Creatures
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Vine Trellis
4 Gnarled Mass
3 Giant Spider
2 Tel-Jilad Exile
4 Spined Wurm
2 Spitting Spider
3 Enormous Baloth
3 Giant Growth
2 Naturalize
2 Horned Helm
2 Lure
2 Blanchwood Armor
This deck highlighted green's ablity for mana ramp to get big creatures out earlier. It also uses several simple enhancing methods, so that the player can experience their pros and cons. Like all the other decks below, it has some nice synergies for the player to discover (like enchanting a regenrator with Lure, or putting a Horned Helm on a large creature) to show that card interactions can be much more powerful than the sum of their parts.
21 Mountain
2 Smoldering Crater
Creatures
4 Frostling
3 Flamekin Brawler
4 Goblin Piker
4 Balduvian Barbarians
3 Talruum Minotaur
4 Shock
4 Volcanic Hammer
3 Giant Strength
2 Pillage
4 Lightning Blast
2 Blaze
A quite aggressive deck with lots of burn. The simplest of these decks in terms of card complexity, but it highlights many of red's strengths.
24 Island
Creatures
3 Wall of Air
1 Glacial Wall
4 Myr Quadropod
4 Air Elemental
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
2 Neurok Stealthsuit
4 Mana Leak
3 Boomerang
4 Cancel
3 Foresee
The control deck of the bunch. It uses library manipulation, card draw, and counterspells, many Wall like creatures and a big finisher. The classical make up for this type of deck.
22 Swamp
2 Polluted Mire
Creatures
4 Myr Servitor
4 Ravenous Rats
3 Severed Legion
2 Phyrexian Rager
3 Phyrexian Ghoul
4 Gravedigger
2 Mass of Ghouls
3 Raise Dead
2 Terror
3 Dark Banishing
2 Skull Catapult
1 Diabolic Tutor
3 Corrupt
This deck has a focus on graveyard interactions as well as sacrifice and simple creature destruction, the trademarks of black, along with some other commn black abilities. It contains a nice synergystic loop with Skull Catapult and two of either Gravedigger or Myr Servitor, which allows for a 2 damage shot every turn without spending a card.
21 Plains
2 Drifting Meadow
Creatures
2 Icatian Priest
2 Icatian Scout
4 Youthful Knight
2 White Knight
2 Master Decoy
3 Soldier Replica
3 Pegasus Charger
3 Serra Angel
2 Angel of Mercy
3 Holy Day
4 Pacifism
2 Disenchant
1 Glorious Anthem
2 Armored Ascension
2 Divine Transformation
This deck was the hardest for me to assemble, because white has so many different things it can do. In the end went with a first strike theme, along some other iconic white stuff. The synergies buried here are first strike with power enhancements, and preventing combat damage after first strike damage is done, making your creatures deal combat damage but not the opponent's.
The decks were designed to be beginner friendly, but were also meant as a base for a new player to tinker. So they didn't use the best of the best cards available in my club's card pool. In fact, I had to trim down the white deck's power to level more with the other four.
When building your own beginner decks, keep about 23-24 lands, less makes it more likely to get mana screwed. While mana flood isn't much fun either, it isn't nearly as frustrating as the opposite, so err more on the side of a flood. Also, don't restrict yourself to a set formula for all the decks. Instead set yourself a goal as to what the deck is about and what its main goals are, then choose cards accordingly. The different deck archetpes aren't bound to any color or color combination, but they need different setups, so the creature to noncreature ratio differs, etc. Furthermore, don't build the best of the best, but rather aim for a good base. A good beginner deck shows possibilities and gives the player hints as to how to make the deck more powerful, as well as different directions where he/she can take the deck. A beginner doesn't have the experience to decide which of two incomparable cards is better for a deck, but he/she can quite easily see a power upgrade when comparing a vanilla creature to a similar french vanilla creature.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
- Were counterspells off-putting at all? I know I like them, but I've read in several places that it can be really frustrating for beginners to realize that the cool card they've been looking to cast doesn't get to enter the battlefield, because my card says "NO"
- Were activated abilities on creatures confusing, especially those that require tapping? Did the kids find it frustrating or difficult to choose between using those abilities and simply attacking with the creatures?
- What about non-basic lands? Did the kids appreciate having more options with them, or was it unfun for them to come into play tapped to reap "marginal" benefits (you and me can tell cycling on a land is good in case of flood, but would a beginner see it this way?)
- Are there any other general tips and tricks you remember that helped make the teaching easier? What things did the kids enjoy the most and the least? Also what age group were these decks built for?
Thanks again for your help, this is definitely a push in the right direction. I'd been struggling with themes that were simple yet fun for the decks, and yours are pretty spot-on, I just might steal a few!
You have to present your kids with something they can be smart about. For example, when you play a vanilla creaure you can only attack and block with it, and that's pretty much it. There's not much you can be smart about. Otoh, a creature with an ability offers more uses, and if it is a tap ablity, you have to consider wether attacking with it or tapping it for its ability is the better course of action, and the timing is also relevant. You have to spinkle your decks with such things, that hint at the depth of the game, without throwing them into the deep waters right away. Just be moderate about it.
On nonbasic lands, you should include a few, in my opinion. Just by including them in such a preconstructed deck, a beginner gets to play with them, gets to experience their pros and cons. Even if they are just playing them anyway, they get to wonder, why these lands aren't just basics instead. Of course, this only works, if the deck is solidly built, where every card has its function. Because then, those lands must have a function as well, must be somehow better than basics.
Counterspells are a part of the game, and an important weapon in blue's arsenal. So I think it's best to let a beginner encounter them right away, so that they don't come as a nasty surprise. Yes, it can be frustrating to have your awesome/gamesaving spell get countered (that I know from countless personal experiences), but it also feels quite awesome to have the means to stop such a game breaking spell. And it feels really good to successfully bait the opponent to waste their only answer on a less important spell, only to follow it up with your game breaker. My blue deck contains 8 counterspells, and that may be a bit much, but I had beginners love this kind of game play from the get go. So while you could cut down on counterspells a bit, I don't think, that keeping them out entirely is a good idea.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I tried to keep it flavorful too so it's engaging, so it has lots of elves and spiders, some cool looking beasts and couple centaurs (she LOVES horses).
I'm calling it "Little Kid T-Ramp-le"
2 Defiant Elf
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Garruk's Companion
3 Wood Elves
3 Centaur Courser
2 Giant Spider
2 Plated Spider
1 Goliath Spider
1 Rootbreaker Wurm
2 Cultivate
2 Epic Confrontation
1 Might of Oaks
2 Overrun
2 Blanchwood Armor
2 Treetop Village
For example, since the deck is about ramping to big creatures with trample, you should run a few more creatures that are naturally big and already have trample, like the Rootbreaker Wurm. Though I would upgrade that as well to Duskdale Wurm or Plated Crusher. Or run a few Vulpine Goliaths for a slightly less expensive creature. (At this point in the game, 1 extra mana equals about three turns waiting.) And I would add a single copy of a creature that seems like an unstoppable juggernaut to get your kids excited when they draw it. I was thinking something like Silvos, Rogue Elemental, Kalonian Behemoth, Plated Slagwurm, Pelakka Wurm, or Terra Stomper (that one can reduce the fear of counterspells, because hey, it can't be countered!), a creature that is so over the top compared to the rest of the deck, that it inspires awe. That is where Goliath Spider fails. 8 mana is a lot, and the deck doesn't have enough ramp to reach that high. And for what? A simple 7/6 with an at that point rather unremarkable ability.
Another thing I would change is the Defiant Elf. Trample is really useless on a small creature, you have to make it big in order to matter at all. I'm sure you kids can figure that out. But a ramp and fatty deck isn't the kind of deck where you want to implement a Voltron subtheme, you simply don't have the room. Ramping to fatties and building a big Voltron creature both require card slots dedicated for doing just that. So there's less room for the other stuff the deck needs. Better to make Voltron into its own deck, maybe a white equipment deck. You also don't want to overload the deck with too many different themes. I kind of did that with my decks to show what the colors are able to do, but it isn't that much of a problem there, since I was building for older players. For kids, I think, it's better to keep a closer focus on one theme.
I also had another thought about lands. A big part of Magic is tweaking your decks. Exchanging cards in a tightly packed deck, however, is hard even for seasoned deckbuilders, I believe it will be even harder for children. Having slightly more lands in the deck than needed allows them to simply put in some more cards without breaking the mana balance of the deck. No one wants to add more lands, lands are boring, but they are nessessary. Going a bit above 60 cards is no big deal if you're just playing casually, and giving your kids a deck that can compensate for a few extra cards lets them play and experiment without having to think too much about boring lands.
There are ways to compensate a mana flood and lessen the frustration of drawing yet another land. Maybe you should try to add one or two cards that can do this, like Ursapine or Elder of Laurels. I'd avoid token creation for now, though, but you should adress that at some point.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Aside from that, a few remarks and questions on your suggestions:
- I switched the Rootbreaker Wurms for Duskdales, I must have missed those when I gatherer-searched for big green tramplers
- How many 5cmc+ fatties would you run? I'm all for more fatties, but I don't want her to be stranded with things she can't cast in her hand too often
- I think I'm going to stay away from the more complex fatties for the time being, I don't want to throw too many keywords at her to begin with, there's already going to be a few different ones in each deck. They're all good candidates though, so I'm noting them and I'll probably pick some up so that she can add them in once she's gotten comfortable enough to start making tweaks.
- I see what you mean with the Voltron theme/Defiant Elf. I thought they'd be cool with the pump spells/blanchwood armor, but I'm scaling that back a little bit (more on this below) so I'm now looking for a new 1 drop to fill that slot
- Good point about mana sinks, I'm going to investigate that further
- I don't quite understand your thing about going above 60 cards. Are you saying I should just add more lands so that she can add more creatures without messing up the balance? That whole paragraph got me a little confused hahaha
Now some notes from my own playtesting, I goldfished the deck a little bit yesterday and came to the following conclusions:
- Too many awkward openers, full of 3 drops and Giant Growths and nothing to do on turns 1 and 2. I cut back Growth to 2 (still a fun effect that represents what green does, so I do want to keep a few), and cut the Blanchwood Armors (as per your Voltron theme comment)
- Since the focus is now even more on ramping to fatties (or a big boardstate + Overrun), I've augmented the ramp package a little bit, going to 4 Wood Elves/3 Cultivate. I'm debating whether I should add another ramp spell or two, probably at 2cmc to help smooth things over a little bit
- I got flooded A LOT, and since I'm putting in more ramp, I cut 1 forest, (now 20 forest/2 treetop village)
- Garruk's Companion was one of the first cards I put in the deck, it plays perfectly with the theme. Having played it now though, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't actually too good. I know a kid might not pick up on this right away, but yesterday I found it to be the best thing I could be doing under 6cmc pretty much all the time, so I was never incentivized to play my 3-4 drops if I could play him instead. So now I don't know if he's too good, the other cards around it are too bad, or if it just doesn't matter haha
- My changes helped a bit, but the curve still seems a bit wonky. I'm actually going to do some research on mana curves as soon as I have time to figure out what I should be doing. This is the first deck I've ever built completely from scratch so I'm still struggling to strike a balance
Lastly, a more general question, how do you feel about my numbers? By that I mean, I tried to build the deck without too many 4-of's because I figured to a kid, drawing several of the same thing isn't that exciting, even if it's good. At the same time, I don't want to go too far in the other direction for 2 reasons:
a) with too many different cards, the deck might become incoherent. Obviously this is not a competitive deck, but it still needs to accomplish its goal a reasonable amount of the time to be fun to play
b) having too many different cards might result in information overload. It'll be a lot easier to remember what each card does if there aren't too many different cards in the deck.
Do you have any thoughts on which direction to go to strike a balance of variety without injecting too much complexity?
I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but thanks again for all your input, it's really helping me a ton!
Aside from that, a few remarks and questions on your suggestions:
- I switched the Rootbreaker Wurms for Duskdales, I must have missed those when I gatherer-searched for big green tramplers
- How many 5cmc+ fatties would you run? I'm all for more fatties, but I don't want her to be stranded with things she can't cast in her hand too often
- I think I'm going to stay away from the more complex fatties for the time being, I don't want to throw too many keywords at her to begin with, there's already going to be a few different ones in each deck. They're all good candidates though, so I'm noting them and I'll probably pick some up so that she can add them in once she's gotten comfortable enough to start making tweaks.
- I see what you mean with the Voltron theme/Defiant Elf. I thought they'd be cool with the pump spells/blanchwood armor, but I'm scaling that back a little bit (more on this below) so I'm now looking for a new 1 drop to fill that slot
- Good point about mana sinks, I'm going to investigate that further
- I don't quite understand your thing about going above 60 cards. Are you saying I should just add more lands so that she can add more creatures without messing up the balance? That whole paragraph got me a little confused hahaha
Now some notes from my own playtesting, I goldfished the deck a little bit yesterday and came to the following conclusions:
- Too many awkward openers, full of 3 drops and Giant Growths and nothing to do on turns 1 and 2. I cut back Growth to 2 (still a fun effect that represents what green does, so I do want to keep a few), and cut the Blanchwood Armors (as per your Voltron theme comment)
- Since the focus is now even more on ramping to fatties (or a big boardstate + Overrun), I've augmented the ramp package a little bit, going to 4 Wood Elves/3 Cultivate. I'm debating whether I should add another ramp spell or two, probably at 2cmc to help smooth things over a little bit
- I got flooded A LOT, and since I'm putting in more ramp, I cut 1 forest, (now 20 forest/2 treetop village)
- Garruk's Companion was one of the first cards I put in the deck, it plays perfectly with the theme. Having played it now though, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't actually too good. I know a kid might not pick up on this right away, but yesterday I found it to be the best thing I could be doing under 6cmc pretty much all the time, so I was never incentivized to play my 3-4 drops if I could play him instead. So now I don't know if he's too good, the other cards around it are too bad, or if it just doesn't matter haha
- My changes helped a bit, but the curve still seems a bit wonky. I'm actually going to do some research on mana curves as soon as I have time to figure out what I should be doing. This is the first deck I've ever built completely from scratch so I'm still struggling to strike a balance
Lastly, a more general question, how do you feel about my numbers? By that I mean, I tried to build the deck without too many 4-of's because I figured to a kid, drawing several of the same thing isn't that exciting, even if it's good. At the same time, I don't want to go too far in the other direction for 2 reasons:
a) with too many different cards, the deck might become incoherent. Obviously this is not a competitive deck, but it still needs to accomplish its goal a reasonable amount of the time to be fun to play
b) having too many different cards might result in information overload. It'll be a lot easier to remember what each card does if there aren't too many different cards in the deck.
Do you have any thoughts on which direction to go to strike a balance of variety without injecting too much complexity?
I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but thanks again for all your input, it's really helping me a ton!
It's hard to give exact numbers. Enough to get at least one fatty for 6+ mana per game, I think, so around 4-5 for that. I'd also include several midrange fatties for 4-5 mana.
Good thinking. In that regard, I'd include only three different types of fatties: 1) big and dumb without any abilities, but bigger than other creatures of the same cost in the deck, 2) creatures that only have reach, 3) creatures that only have trample. And of course, the one epic creature that can be a bit more complex. For example, for 4 mana, I'd put in some Rumbling Baloths, Tangle Mantises, and Giant Spiders.
Basically yes. It was just a thought on how to make tweaking the deck easier for your kids by removing some of the complex thinking this usually requires.
Actually, I think, 3 copies of Giant Growth would be the best number.
It probably a better idea to put more ramping on the 1-2 mana slots. You could add another mana elf, like Elvish Mystic, for more than 4 mana dorks at 1 mana. You can also run Rampant Growth or Nature's Lore at 2 mana. With that, you get more emphasis on 3-4 mana creatures. You can also take the same approach of adding a slightly different creature, bigger but dumber, namely Kalonian Tusker.
Actually, I do, and it ties into some of what I said in this post already. There are many funtionally identical or nearly identical cards, that pretty much only differ in name and artwork. Like Llanowar Elves/Elvish Mystic, or Stampeding Rhino/Fangren Hunter. You could also run a Rootbreaker Wurm alongside a Duskdale Wurm for a bit of easy to see better/worse card comparision. Different artwork, different names, different creature types, slightly different power/toughness, these are all things that introduce variety without adding complexity or sacrificing consistency.
Edit:
One more thought I had just now: The deck can easily run out of cards in hand to cast, putting the player into top deck mode. That's not so bad in and of itself, but your kids will appreciate the ability to draw more cards so that they get to play more stuff. Enter Harmonize as a very easy to understand effect with obvious benefits. Maybe add two cpies if you can fit them in.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Garruk's Companion
4 Wood Elves
3 Centaur Courser
2 Rumbling Baloth
1 Tangle Mantis
1 Stampeding Rhino
2 Vulpine Goliath
1 Duskdale Wurm
1 Pelakka Wurm
4 Rampant Growth
2 Harmonize
1 Might of Oaks
2 Overrun
20 Forest
2 Treetop Village
So, I smoothed out the curve, and made quite a few decisions in the process, namely:
- Cut the Spider/Reach theme. I got to a point where I only had room for 2-3 Spiders and then they felt random rather than cohesive with the deck. It does mean the deck can no longer deal with Fliers (I also cut the Epic Confrontations for similar reasons) but after goldfishing it for a bit, I think it's better that way. The deck is surprisingly strong and consistently builds either a wide board or presents a scary fatty, and with all the trample running around seems like it will end games in relatively short order. At that point, if it can also deal with fliers, there's not much my other beginner decks will be able to throw at it that will stop it in its tracks (I won't be including Wrath of God or such in the other decks for now haha!)
- Threw in 2 Elvish Mystics and 2 Harmonize. I'd actually considered those cards but thought having 2 cards with different names and art that do the exact same thing might seem strange to a kid, and I couldn't find room for Harmonize.
- Made the ramp package easier to access, with 6x 1 mana dorks, 4x Rampant Growth and 4x Wood Elves. I wanted to keep Wood Elves even though it's 3 cmc ramp because it plays well into the deck's goal of building up an army (for eventual overruns) while ramping, and even brings the land into play untapped which allows her to discover that with the right sequencing she can play more spells in a turn.
- I ended up choosing to keep Garruk's Companion, but change the split to 2 Companion/4 Elvish Visionary to avoid Companion showing up too often and just being too good. Kalonian Tusker was something I'd considered, but it invalidates Centaur Courser even more and I really wanted to keep the centaurs in the deck. With the Revamped creature base, I found GC to be less "always strictly better" anyway, so it's been less of an issue, and it introduces the Trample theme on a smaller creature before all the ramp get her further up the chain.
- I couldn't find the space to put the 3rd Giant Growth back in, but I can always throw it in at a later time if testing shows that it would really be better.
- I also did not find a mana sink I was happy with, they all seemed a bit too complicated for the time being (aside from Treetop Village, which is not much of a mana sink per so but does help). I did note a few that I liked though, and I'll suggest them to my daughter once she's caught on to the game enough that they won't confuse her.
Overall I'm really happy with the result, the deck feels focused and strong without being too complicated. Now I only have to build 4 more hahaha! Thanks again for all your help. If you're not too tired of the project, I'll report back once I have another deck mostly built to get some feedback. Cheers!
In regards to this deck, after looking it over, I think, you have a lack of 5 mana creatures. Considering, that you plan to play a mana dork on turn 1, 4 Wood Elves make it quite likely to follow the dork with one of them on turn 2. Given a very realistic chance of getting 3 lands until turn 3, this means, you'll have 5 mana on turn 3 available quite often, but only a single Stampeding Rhino to continue that chain (besides using that mana to play two cheap creatures). Maybe a few more of Arborback Stomper, Spined Wurm/Feral Krushok and/or Hollowhenge Beast/Silverback Ape can solve this. You could lose a Vulpine Goliath and some Rampant Growths, to make room.
I also worry about the absolute lack of answers to flyers now. It means, that this deck has literally no way of dealing with an Air Elemental or other bigger flyer, or even a smaller one, that you might want to add to your other decks. Except being more agressive and attack, of course. Perfectly fine, but still, if your kid is facing such a flyer hitting him/her turn after turn without any hope of taking it down, that'll be kind of a downer. I wouldn't add something as just an answer to flyers, though green has lots of options for that, but maybe consider 1-2 copies of Icy Manipulator or Trip Noose. It adds a bit more complexity, yes, but should still be reasonable. And it adds a strategy element besides playing creatures and attacking with them, because these cards can be used both for offense (tapping down a potential blocker) and defense (keeping a creature from attacking). Another plus is, that it adds artifacts to the deck, something that could be a nice target for some red or white artifact destruction. When I was building my beginner decks, I made sure, that those things were included to a degree, hence why all of my decks have some artifacts/enchantments.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
As for artifacts/enchantments, I plan to have a few enchantments in some decks (definitely "anthems" in white) but since I'm hoping to teach her as soon as she can do some basic math for creature combat, I want to keep it simple and also avoid "dead" cards in the deck, like drawing your Shatter with no target for it. I plan to introduce this at a later time. One other thing to consider is that we are not native english speakers at home, but my cards are in english. Therefore I want to keep the card functions simple so that she can memorize most of them. She'll learn english as a second language but probably won't be able to read it well enough for another few years. That's part of the reason I liked focusing on keywords too, even if she can't "read" them, she'll eventually recognize the words and know what they mean, which she can't do with more extensive rules text.
I threw together a red deck, but in a few practice games vs. the green deck, it just get curb-stomped really hard. It's a fairly simple design based around haste and burn spells, with goblins for flavor and a Shivan Dragon as an epic finisher. Here's the list as it is now:
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piker
2 Fervent Cathar
2 Goblin Chariot
1 Ball Lightning
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Shivan Dragon
4 Volcanic Hammer
2 Lightning Strike
3 Arc Lightning
2 Lightning Blast
2 Blaze
2 Smoldering Crater
I might have just not been lucky, but I got mana screwed a lot, could not deal with the fatties the green deck ramped into, and wasn't fast enough to get in under them. I'm also unsure that Shivan Dragon is epic enough compared to Pelakka Wurm, and I couldn't think of an epic red spell that just wins the game like I had in green with Overrun. I think the shell has potential but it needs some love haha!
If I had to choose a single easy to understand and iconic ability in red, I'd go with firebreathing (after Firebreathing). It's not an actual keyword, but many people I know and I myself as well, treat it as one. If you inlcude a bunch of different creatures that have that ability, your kid can easily recognize the ability just by looking at the cost, pay one R to make this creature stronger for a turn, do this as often as you want. It also acts as an evasion ability simply by threat of pumping mana into it and taking any potential blocker down. It also allows the weaker red ceatures to at least trade 1:1 with their much bigger green counterparts. Fiery Hellhound, Flame Spirit, Flamekin Brawler, etc. are simply creatures but they can invoke that fiery spirit of red. The Shivan Dragon ties nicely into this.
In regards to the burn spells, I'd avoid instants and sorceries with the same effect for the same cost, like Volcanic Hammer and Lightning Strike. In that example, I would either keep Volcanic Hammer as the only 2-mana burn spell, or use a combination of Lightning Strike and Searing Spear while cutting the Hammer. The reason for this is, that I suspect your kid to often try to cast Volcanic Hammer at non-sorery timing thinking it to be a Lightning Strike. One or two higher costed burn spells which deal a lot of damage, like Explosive Impact or Spreading Flames would at least give the deck a chance to burn a fatty away. I was also thinking about adding a single copy of Inferno. Yes, you said you didn't ant to run sweepers, but this spells is just so epic yet simple. Burn Everything! It might give the deck the breather it sometimes needs.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Do you think I should keep a bit of the haste theme in? It's fairly simple, very red, and I remember loving Ball Lightning as a younger player, it represents so much potential damage for just 3 mana! I'm going to be really busy over the next few days so it might take a bit longer than usual, but I'll definitely report back once I've implemented some changes and come up with a new iteration of the deck.
One last question, purely out of curiosity: how is it that you know so many "bad" cards. Don't get me wrong, your suggestions have been spot on for what I'm trying to do, but they're not exactly tournament all stars. I consider myself as having a pretty decent knowledge of the card pool; I could probably rattle off the cost/rules text of most Modern/Legacy staples, but I've found it difficult to come up with the sort of draft-level commons these decks need. Are you a much better gatherer-search ninja than I am, or is there another secret behind this deep knowledge?
I have been playing Magic since Onslaught, and bought booster boxes of pretty much every set since then (with a few exceptions). I was so into the game, that I had built dozens of different decks at a time from my evergrowing card collection, tinkering like a maniac. Naturally, I developed an almost encyclopedic knowledge of all the cards I owned and also those that I commonly played against. I was literaly the gatherer search engine equivalent of my playgroup. I could recite the entire texts (plus flavor texts!) of any card, or derive the name of a card simply by a vague description. Then I got into Limited, and got to play even more of the weaker cards in the sets. I actually played with pretty much every card I mentioned in this thread so far, and many more.
Also, yes, my gatherer-fu is excellent, if I dare say so myself. My Magic fanatism has cooled down over the last years and my card knowledge isn't as fantastic anymore, but I can find almost anything I want, if it exits, using gatherer. When I make these card suggestions, I almost always do a gatherer search for that kind of card beforehand, and select suitable candidates to propose.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Ah, that all makes a lot of sense. I used to know more cards from individual sets when I played standard (almost 15 years ago). Now that I don't have time to keep up with Standard and only play Modern and dabble in Legacy, cards that don't crack those formats often fly under my radar. Also, up until I started building these decks, I'd only ever used gatherer to search cards I already knew to check alternate printings and languages mostly. I'm starting to get the hang of the advanced search, but I'm definitely not a black belt in gatherer-fu.
Anyhow, I've overhauled the red deck. It's definitely better than it was, and has won a few games vs. the green deck, but I still don't feel it's quite where it needs to be. Here's the new list for reference:
4 Flamekin Brawler
4 Pyre Charger
2 Dragon Hatchling
2 Fiery Hellhound
2 Flametongue Kavu
2 Ball Lightning
1 Shivan Dragon
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
1 Exquisite Firecraft
1 Explosive Impact
1 Inferno
2 Smoldering Crater
So since the deck needed a serious boost in power level, I chose to replace the Volcanic Hammers (which were originally my first choice due to being sorcery) by Lightning Strike. I have 2 extra Lightning Bolts at home too, so I'm trying those out to complement Shock, which is still pretty weak overall (although it might fare better once I build other decks which don't contain enormous creatures). I kept Ball Lightning (even added a 2nd) because I love the flavor and feel of it, but I'm open to cutting it later if it becomes necessary.
I put in a lot a firebreathers, which has made the deck stronger, but also makes it a bit more awkward to decide how to spend your mana (pump vs. develop board/burn spells). I never drew the 1-of Inferno in the few practice games I ran, so I'm unsure as of yet if it's any good. I slotted in Magma Jet at 2cmc because the deck needs help with card flow/selection, so even getting a crappy rate for 2 damage seemed worth it. I also put in 1 Exquisite Firecraft, mostly because it's 3 mana for 4 damage which is a pretty good rate in mono-red. That slot could also be Flames of the Blood Hand. Frankly, both cards have text which is going to be irrelevant a lot of the time which kind of bothers me because it adds useless complexity like 90% of the time, but so far that's where I'm at.
I'm aware that there's a whole at 5 mana on the curve, but since a lot of the creatures are mana sinks I haven't found that to be too problematic thus far. As I said, it's definitely an improvement, but I'd gladly take more suggestions in order to make it a bit better still to bring it closer to 50/50 with the green deck. Also, in trying to make the deck stronger, I've gotten to a point where it contains 0 vanilla creatures. I hope that doesn't end up making it too overwhelming...
As an aside, I've started looking into the white deck (going for a weenies/first strike/glorious anthem theme), hopefully it measures up ok vs the other 2 decks once it's complete. I'll post a list once I have something more concrete put together. Cheers!
I'm uncertain about wether includig scry is such a good idea. The ability is simple enough for sure, but using it correctly, that's a lot harder. Your initial inclusion of Arc Lightning was a good idea, in my opinion, since it is a way for the deck to reap some card advantage, especially if green loads up the board with 1/1s. You could introduce your damage instants as "deal X damage to target creature/player", and your sorceries as "deal X damage divided among several targets". There is Forked Bolt at 1 mana, Flames of the Firebrand at 3 (if you want to add some variety to Arc Lightning), and Pyrotechnics at 5, along with Spreading Flames at 7, which I mentioned before. If you really want a 4 damage spell at 3 mana, Flame Javelin may be easier to understand and to explain (since in monored, the cost really only is RRR). Lightning Bolt is the pinacle of efficiency for red damage spells, it may be a better idea to leave it out for now. In general, it's probably a good idea to let all those spells hit creatures and players, just to avoid confusion about who/what can be hit by what.
Raging Goblin loses value really fast, and this deck is not going for aggro that hard. Another 1-drop with more late game relevance, or leaving it out altogether, may not be such a bad idea. How about Goblin Fireslinger instead? That one should be easy enough to understand and will have more impact later on.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
- Goblin Piker was really miserable in my early playtesting because he doesn't survive a block by anything. Red finally got its first Grizzly Bear recently in Falkenrath Reaver, so I'll be trying that.
- If I stop the mana curve at 5 (which makes sense for a red deck, to be fair),it means cutting both Shivan Dragon and Inferno, so what's my exciting epic card?
- I like the idea of instant burn spells having one target and sorcery spells having multiple, it helps differentiate them, I'll be exploring that.
- You're right that scry might be a little more complicated to resolve that I'd realized. The deck really needs help with card flow though. Maybe having the multiple target burn spells with help it re-coup enough card advantage to mitigate this.
- I wasn't thrilled with adding Lightning Bolt either, but the deck needed so much help that even adding 2 bolts wasn't enough. I'll try a few Forked Bolt in that slot, but in the end, getting the decks to be more or less balanced is the most important aspect of all this, so if I have to, I'll put Lightning Bolt back in. Hopefully I can balance the decks without it.
- Goblin Fireslinger is something I hadn't thought of. I went for Raging Goblin because it was a "staple" of my terrible aggro decks when I started playing, but I have also found it lacking in actual games. I Gatherer-searched red 1-drops and a few others caught my eye, how do you feel about Goblin Balloon Brigade, Godo's Irregulars and Somberwald Vigilante ?
- Good call on Flame Javelin, I only searched burn spells up to cmc 4 so that never came up!
- I definitely agree that all the burn spells should hit both creatures and players for power/clarity.
Thanks again for all your helpful suggestions!
A piker and a bear aren't that different. So long as it trades with the other creature, a 2/1 or 2/2 has served its purpose in combat. You shouldn't expect either to survive combat. And in red pikers are the norm, a bear is the exception. That's the main reason, why I suggested Goblin Piker over Falkenrath Reaver. As a red vanilla creature, the Reaver is above average for its cost.
Sorry about that, I was in a it of a rush at the time. I didn't mean for you to cut those two cards, but rather that the curve of the other creatures should top out at 5.
It may also be, that the green deck is just too good at the moment. You could try to power it down a bit if the problem persists. In that regard, maybe exchange Elvish Visionary with Runeclaw Bears or such.
I thought, the Irregulars and the Vigilante were a bit too complex for the purpose of the deck. The Balloon Brigade may work, but the ability could be confused with firebreathing due to its cost. Contemplating this a bit, Goblin Arsonist could work nicely and also adds a way to gain some card advanage.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
3 Goblin Balloon Brigade
3 Pyre Charger
3 Falkenrath Reaver
2 Fier Hellhound
2 Flametongue Kavu
2 Fire Elemental
1 Shivan Dragon
2 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Strike
3 Arc Lightning
2 Flame Javelin
1 Inferno
2 Smoldering Crater
So, my choices:
- I decided not to include Goblin Fireslinger (although he might be the most consistent of the 3 options I was considering for pushing through damage) because he broke the burn rule of being able to go after creatures or players
- Goblin Arsonist has been great, he makes blocking awkward because he can often snipe a 1/1 on the way out, or combine with a burn spell to take out bigger creatures
- Similarly, Balloon Brigade being able to gain flying has helped prevent it from being completely irrelevant beyond turn 2 the way Raging Goblin often was, but since it requires spending a little mana, does not feel overpowered
- I cut back on the number of firebreathers but kept a few of the better ones, since they remain relevant late and act as good mana sinks
- I decided to keep Reaver over Piker, although you are absolutely right that it's above average for a red creature of that cost. To expand a bit on the thought process, all the 1/1's from the green deck that Piker was dying to had already generated some value before dying (acceleration from the dorks/Wood Elves, card drawn from Visionary), whereas Piker came into play, attacked once, died immediately and was basically 2 mana wasted most of the time. About Elvish Visionary becoming a Grizzly Bear, it's something I'll keep in mind, although I'm not 100% sure which is actually better in the deck, since it's a beatdown deck and the bear has a more relevant body
- The heavier emphasis on multi-target burn sorceries has been great, it provides flexibility and card advantage and allows the deck to come back from behind a little bit
- I cut the Ball Lightning in favor of 2 Flame Javelin. As you said, BL is basically just a burn spell that doesn't deal a fixed amount, and to help consistency, I figured 4 guaranteed damage might just be better
- I never drew Inferno in the practice games, but given that the deck is faster now and able to push more early damage through, it seems like a good fit, i.e. not too likely to finish yourself off when cast, and able to either win the game or enable a win from a topdecked burn spell later
- Flametongue Kavu is a boss. We never debated this card, I just feel like mentionning it, because I love it, it has a lot of nostalgia value for me, and just happens to be great
So, barring small tweaks, it looks like I've got 2 pretty functional decks!
Here's the shell I've been working on for a white deck. It doesn't have 60 cards for now (50), and I'm looking to plug some holes in the list before I start testing it. Here's what I have so far:
4 Tundra Wolves
4 Youthful Knight
2 Capashen Knight
2 White Knight
2 Inspiring Captain
2 Serra Angel
1 Angel of Renewal
4 Glorious Anthem
22 Plains
So, the idea here is a good old white weenie deck. The main keyword ability is First Strike, with a little bit of flying thrown in. I know Protection is a bit complicated, but I just might avoid playing this deck vs the black deck until she can understand, and then just break it down to "it can't be hurt by black magic or creatures" which I think is something a kid should be able to wrap her head around. The pay-offs are Glorious Anthem (could have used Honor of the Pure but I think that probably makes the deck too strong) and 3 Angels at the top of the curve. Inspiring Captain is like a 1-turn Anthem, so I feel it's a nice call back. Also, she may not realize it right away, but Capashen Knight sort of has Firebreathing. All the firebreathers in Red (that I included) only cost 1 to activate, whereas this is 2 mana, so it seems fair to bleed it into white at a reduced power level. Since I'm introducing enchantments in this deck with the Anthems, and because I don't want to give the deck insane good removal in like Path to Exile or Swords, I opted for Pacifism. It could also be Journey to Nowhere, but I think "this creature doesn't want to fight anymore" is easier to explain than the whole exile thing.
The are currently no 3-mana creatures, although Glorious Anthem partly fills the 3-drop slot. Ideally, I think the deck needs a few more creatures, a couple of instant/sorcery spells (didn't have much of an idea where I wanted to go with those), and I've kept 2-3 slots for more land, I just haven't decided what to run along with the Plains.
I'll be eager to hear your thoughts on how the Red deck came along and the White shell I have so far. Have a good day!
The card draw provided by the Visionary is way more relevant than the higher power/toughness of the Bears. Because it provides a body while also digging for the Overrun to profit from that body. Less card advantage will mkae the green deck weaker if you feel the need to power it down. Cards are, after all, the most valuable resource to have in the game.
It sure is great. I think, more copies of it would be too much, but you never put in more than 2. 2 is fine, so I never felt the need to adress this particular card.
In regards to your white deck:
3-4 global damage prevention spells, like Holy Day would work well together with first strike as I mentioned about my own white beginner deck, and could be used to twart a lethal Overrun from the green deck. Forfend would be of more use against red's burn spells, and Safe Passage even includes the player.
For the epic creature, I find Angel of Renewal to be lacking. I too would choose an angel, but my choice would be Angel of Retribution, because it features first strike as the main ability of the deck and is not too over-the-top. Alternatives include Archangel as a bigger version of Serra Angel, and Deathless Angel, which can save other creatures.
Right now, the deck goes more into midrange territory than white weenie aggro, so another land is probably needed.
You haven't build a black deck yet, so pro:black is unproblematic so far. But a black deck along the lines of the ones you've built will literally face an untouchable creature possibly as soon as turn 2 in White Knight. A similar problem would arise with Silver Knight against the red deck. Or with a Paladin en-Vec against both. Protection is, however, iconic for white. So if you want to include some, be sparse, and most importantly, adjust the other decks to at least have a hope of dealing with such a creature. The easiest way to do so is to include some artifact creatures or colorless sources of damage in both the red and black decks. There are a few (french) vanilla artifact creatures that can replace other (french) vanilla creatures in these decks. Examples are Alpha Myr/Bronze Sable/Field Creeper, Stone Golem, Lumengrid Gargoyle/Gold-Forged Sentinel, Obsianus Golem, Phyrexian Hulk, etc.
I'm a bit at a loss for 3-mana creatures for this deck. There are a number of 2/3s and 2/3 flyers, but a vanilla 2/3 seems too underwhelming, and flyers are quite the threat for the other decks right now, so you don't want to run too many of those either. 1/4s and other wall like creatures are too weak on their own. The best choice would be a 3/x first striker, in my opinion, but the only good choice for that is Porcelain Legionnaire, which is more of a 2-drop, and there it is freaking powerful. Maybe add a few Venerable Monks for life gain, or Kemba's Skyguards if the flying isn't too much for you.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
4 Tundra Wolves
4 Youthful Knight
3 Capashen Knight
2 White Knight
2 Venerable Monk
2 Pegasus Charger
2 Inspiring Captain
2 Serra Angel
1 Angel of Retribution
3 Pacifism
4 Glorious Anthem
24 Plains
I went with your suggestions in regards to Holy Day (it seemed simpler/more intuitive than the other 2), Angel of Retribution and the 3 drops (stole Pegasus Charger from your own list, didn't want to put in too much lifegain to avoid crushing the red deck too hard).
I'm not sure about your land count comment, did you mean for me to go with 1 more than was in the list (up to 23) or one more than I suggested (the 22 in the list +3 in my comments +1 more, for 26 total) ? I went with 24 as a middle ground for now. I'd also like to find a non-basic to replace a few plains, but I'd like to keep them varied from deck to deck, any suggestions for white?
I agree about White Knight, but it's just so iconic I wanted to throw a few in. I'm only putting in 2, and I'll address them somehow when I build the black deck. For now that deck is actually the one I least know what I'll do with, so I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
4 Tundra Wolves
4 Youthful Knight
3 Capashen Knight
2 White Knight
2 Venerable Monk
2 Pegasus Charger
2 Inspiring Captain
2 Serra Angel
1 Angel of Retribution
3 Pacifism
4 Glorious Anthem
24 Plains
I went with your suggestions in regards to Holy Day (it seemed simpler/more intuitive than the other 2), Angel of Retribution and the 3 drops (stole Pegasus Charger from your own list, didn't want to put in too much lifegain to avoid crushing the red deck too hard).
I'm not sure about your land count comment, did you mean for me to go with 1 more than was in the list (up to 23) or one more than I suggested (the 22 in the list +3 in my comments +1 more, for 26 total) ? I went with 24 as a middle ground for now. I'd also like to find a non-basic to replace a few plains, but I'd like to keep them varied from deck to deck, any suggestions for white?
I agree about White Knight, but it's just so iconic I wanted to throw a few in. I'm only putting in 2, and I'll address them somehow when I build the black deck. For now that deck is actually the one I least know what I'll do with, so I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
LANDS (24):
-- Jungle Hollow x3
-- Vivid Grove
-- Vivid Marsh
-- Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
-- Temple of the False God
-- Blighted Woodland
-- Blighted Fen
-- Fertile Thicket
-- Mortuary Mire
-- Forest x8
-- Swamp x5
CREATURES (23):
-- Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
-- Shaman of the Pack x2
-- Greenweaver Druid x2
-- Wellwisher x2
-- Elvish Archdruid x2
-- Scattershot Archer x2
-- Thornweald Archer x2
-- Essence Warden x2
-- Lys Alana Huntmaster x2
-- Bramblewood Paragon
-- Lys Alana Bowmaster
-- Imperious Perfect
-- Dwynen’s Elite
-- Rampaging Baloth x2
INSTANTS/SORCERIES (12):
-- Skyreaping x2
-- Eyeblight Massacre x2
-- Overrun x2
-- Doom Blade x3
-- Naturalize
-- Harmonize
-- Death Frenzy
ENCHANTMENTS (1):
-- Deathreap Ritual
All 2-color decks in Magic have a name given to them by their association with a “guild” on the plane of Ravnica. Decks made up of the Green/Black color pairing are known as “Golgari”. This deck is the fastest of the three decks; due to the fact the cards within it have a lower average converted mana cost (CMC), most costing 2-3 mana to cast.
A lot of the Elves have small power/toughness, but they are designed to get onto the battlefield quickly to overwhelm your opponents before they can get set up. Nath of the Gilt-Leaf will frustrate your opponent by making them discard a card at the beginning of your turn, and gets you a 1/1 Elf Warrior token in return. Greenweaver Druid helps provide the extra mana you need to keep pumping out creatures to put the pressure on your opponents. Use Wellwisher’s life gaining ability to make up for the fact your opponents creatures are often bigger than yours: you can afford to take some damage from their creatures by not blocking them, if you can gain that life right back! Speaking of gaining life, Essence Warden will gain you a tremendous amount, as you gain 1 life every time a creature comes in to play. If both copies of Essence Warden are out at once, every creature that comes into play will gain you 2 life! This life gaining ability includes your opponent’s creatures as well AND any token creatures that they make. Elvish Archdruid can provide an amazing amount of mana by adding green mana equal to the amount of elves you control (including your Elf tokens), and the Archdruid has the added bonus of making them all power/toughness +1/+1. Imperious Perfect can also add +1/+1 to your Elves, and can make an Elf Warrior token each turn. Scattershot Archer will help keep the opponent running the Blue/Red Thopter deck in check by tapping to do 1 point of damage to their 1/1 flying Thopter’s. Just beware, because those Thopter’s may not stay 1/1’s for very long due to cards such as Favorable Winds or Chief of the Foundry, at which point they are safely out of reach of the Scattershot Archer, so play him as soon as you can. Thornweald Archer’s deathtouch ability will protect you against your opponent’s biggest flyers like Niv-Mizzet or Sharding Sphinx in the Blue/Red deck. Creatures with deathtouch must only do a single point of damage to opposing creatures to kill them, which means that even a small 2/1 creature can bring down an opponents 4/4. You may be tempted to use a Thornweald Archer to block a Thopter token, but that would kill the Thornweald Archer as well, so it’s best to save these guys for your opponent’s biggest threats. Lys Alana Huntmaster will help you make Elf Warrior tokens, and Bramblewood Paragon makes sure that ALL Warriors (not just the tokens) come into play with a +1/+1 counter on them, granting them the trample ability as well. Lys Alana Bowmaster is another card to help to keep Thopter’s in check, as each time you play an Elf, it does 2 points of damage to a creature with flying, which most of the time will be enough to kill them. To round out your complement of creatures, while it’s not an Elf creature but rather a Beast, the deck includes two copies of Rampaging Baloth. A 6/6 creature with trample is fearsome enough, but he has the added benefit of creating 4/4 Beast tokens, just by simply playing a land!
Skyreaping can keep the skies clear of your opponent’s creatures. To determine your “devotion to green”, just count the number of green mana symbols in mana cost of all the creatures and enchantments that you have on the board, and Skyreaping will do that much damage to each flying creature! It is a sorcery card, so keep in mind it can only be played on your turn. Eyeblight Massacre makes all your opponents creatures get -2/-2, which will be enough to kill many of them, and those that aren’t killed immediately by it will be easier to kill with your Elves when you attack. Eyeblight Massacre will also be your best way to deal with Tajic, Blade of the Legion, a creature in the Red/White deck. Tajic has the ability “indestructible”, so he’s very hard to kill, but one way to remove indestructible creatures from the board is to reduce their toughness equal to 0, which kills the creature. Since Tajic is a 2/2, Eyeblight Massacre is enough to kill him! The card Doom Blade is a very easy way to kill any creature that belongs to an opponent. It’s fun to watch your opponent play a creature that costs 5 or 6 mana, then easily remove it with a 2 mana cost spell! It’s an instant so it can be played at almost any time. But remember, just because an opponent has a big creature on the board, if you’re involved in a three player game don’t waste the Doom Blade unless it’s attacking you. If it’s going after your OTHER opponent, let it happen and save the Doom Blade for when you need it most! Combine your Doom Blades and Eyeblight Massacre’s and your various Archers abilities with the enchantment Deathreap Ritual. At the end of ANY turn in which a creature died, you get to draw a card. Note, it’s just one card per turn, no matter how many creatures have died. If you really get in trouble, cast Death Frenzy, which gives all creatures (even your own) -2/-2. This may kill some of your creatures too, but can gain you 1 life for every creature that died.
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood is a land that taps for green mana, but often times its going to be far more useful to tap it instead to add a permanent +1/+1 counter to all green creatures that came into play that turn, even your tokens. Make sure not to tap this until you’re done playing creatures for that turn, or if you’re going to be making any Elf Warrior tokens! You can sacrifice (put into your graveyard) the land Blighted Woodland to search your library and put either a Forest or Swamp into play. Heres a tip: don’t sacrifice Blighted Woodland unless one (or both) of your Rampaging Baloth’s are in play, that way you also get two 4/4 beasts as well!
Finally, if you’ve not overwhelmed your opponents with all your Elves, your best win conditions (known as “win-cons”) are the sorcery Overrun and the creature Shaman of the Pack. There are 2 copies of each of these in the deck. Overrun gives all your creatures +3/+3 and trample until the end of the turn, so don’t cast it until you’ve got enough Elves on the board to take out your opponent(s). Shaman of the Pack does damage to an opponent equal to the number of Elves you have in play. You don’t even need to attack in order to win; simply playing the Shaman can kill an opponent, so make sure not to play them unless you have a good number of Elves on the board!
LANDS (24):
-- Swiftwater Cliffs x3
-- Vivid Creek
-- Vivid Crag
-- Halimar Depths
-- Temple of the False God
-- Skyline Cascade
-- Blighted Cataract
-- Island x7
-- Mountain x8
CREATURES (22):
-- Whirler Rogue x2
-- Sharding Sphinx x2
-- Aspiring Aeronaut x2
-- Chief of the Foundry x2
-- Pilgrim’s Eye x2
-- Ornithopter x2
-- Thopter Engineer x2
-- Ghirapur Gearcrafter x2
-- Reclusive Artificer x2
-- Izzet Staticaster x2
-- Pia and Kiran Nalaar
-- Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
INSTANTS (4):
-- Unnerving Assault x2
-- Lightning Bolt x2
ENCHANTMENTS (4):
-- Gravitational Shift
-- Thopter Spy Network
-- Favorable Winds x2
ARTIFACTS (6):
-- Izzet Keyrune x2
-- Bident of Thassa x2 (also counts as an Enchantment)
-- Silver-Inlaid Dagger x2
All 2-color decks in Magic have a name given to them by their association with a “guild” on the plane of Ravnica. Decks that are made up of the Red/Blue color pairing are known as “Izzet”. This deck falls in the middle of the three decks in terms of speed, due to the fact the cards contained have a typical converted mana cost (CMC) of 3 or 4.
This deck uses the power of flying mechanical creatures known as Thopter’s to attack your opponents in the air, thus making them difficult for them to be blocked. A great many of the creatures in the deck also bring a Thopter token along with them when they enter the battlefield, such as Whirler Rogue (he actually brings two tokens!), Aspiring Aeronaut, Thopter Engineer, Ghirapur Gearcrafter, and Pia and Kiran Nalaar, a duo that like the Whirler Rogue puts two Thopter tokens into play when cast. Your force of 1/1 Thopters may not scare your opponents much, but that’s before you play Favorable Winds, an enchantment that gives +1/+1 to all your flying creatures, or a Chief of the Foundry, an artifact creature that adds +1/+1 to other artifact creatures. You also have Gravitational Shift, an enchantment that grants all flying creatures +2 to power only, while simultaneously reducing power -2 to all creatures without flying. This -2 power does also affect your ground-based creatures, so you’ll need to decide when it’s to your advantage to play it. It’s probably worth it to make your few ground-based creatures -2 power if you look across the table and see an army of green Elves or red and white Soldiers coming for you! There are a few other Thopter’s in the deck as well: Pilgrim’s Eye is a flying artifact creature that lets you look through your deck and put an Island or Mountain into your hand, and then there’s the Ornithopter, one of the few cards in the game that has a 0 mana cost. He does come with a drawback though in that his power/toughness is a 0/2, which means if he attacks he’s not doing any damage (but, because of other cards such as Favorable Winds or Chief of the Foundry, Ornithopter can soon start inflicting damage). And, because he has 2 toughness, he’s able to block many of the smaller 1/1 Elves and Soldiers and live! You also have some strong multi-colored cards in the deck: Izzet Staticaster can save you from defeat when cast at the correct time. It’s a creature with Flash, which means it can be cast at any time, even when it’s your opponents turn or when you’re being attacked. Because he has Haste, the Izzet Staticaster can tap and utilize his ability the turn he comes into play. And what an ability it is, too, as tapping him can do 1 damage to a creature and all other creatures with the same name, a great way to deal with Elf Warrior and Soldier tokens. But beware, because those Elf Warrior and Soldier tokens often don’t stay 1/1’s for long, at which point they are out of reach of the Staticaster. Another multi-colored creature is Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind. Niv-Mizzet is the leader of the entire Izzet guild. A 4/4 dragon, he flies so he can also gain the benefits of Favorable Winds or Gravitational Shift, but he also does one damage to a creature or opponent whenever you draw a card. And, if you don’t want to tap him to attack, he can also be tapped to draw a card, thus doing a second point of damage in the same turn! Your final multi-colored creature is Reclusive Artificer. When he enters the battlefield, he does damage to any creature equal to the number of artifacts you control. This includes all artifacts, such as your Thopter tokens, regular Thopter’s such as Pilgrim’s Eye or Ornithopter, and non-creature artifacts like the Izzet Keyrune, your Silver-Inlaid Dagger’s or your Bident’s of Thassa.
Speaking of these three, your Izzet Keyrune’s are artifacts that can also tap for colored mana, helping you to afford your bigger spells quicker. Artifacts that tap for any kind of mana are referred to as “mana rocks”. This rock can also become a 2/1 artifact creature until the end of the turn. They don’t fly, but as they are artifacts they can have their power and toughness boosted by Chief of the Foundry. The also have one other ability: if, when they act as creatures, they damage an opponent, you have the option of first drawing and then discarding any card. This is what’s called a “may ability”; because it says “you may”; you can choose to do it or not. Drawing a card and immediately having to discard one card is what is known as “looting”, a common form of card draw in the color red. Silver-Inlaid Dagger is an artifact type known as Equipment. After paying the normal mana cost, the card goes on the table. Then you pay the stated Equip cost to attach that card to your creature. The Dagger adds 2 to the power of the creature it’s equipped to, BUT it can add 1 more power when equipped to a creature that’s a Human. Many of the creatures responsible for creating Thopter’s also happen to be humans! One nice thing about equipment is, even if the creature it’s equipped to should be killed, the equipment stays in play on the battlefield, ready to re-equip to the next creature. Your last artifact is the Bident of Thassa. This card acts as both an enchantment and an artifact, so it’s vulnerable to cards that destroy either. However, it can be a great source of card drawing, allowing you to draw cards whenever each of your creatures does combat damage to a player. Don’t forget about Niv-Mizzet’s ability: whenever you draw a card you can do an additional point of damage! So, if he’s on the table when your creatures are doing damage, you’re drawing cards AND doing MORE damage! Note, the Bident is also “Legendary”, which means that even though you have two copies in your deck, because it’s legendary only one copy can ever be out at a time.
Finally you have a few Instants. You can spring a little surprise with Unnerving Assault. It’s an instant, so you can play it at almost any time. You’ll see in the card’s mana cost a symbol that’s half blue and half red. That is referred to as “hybrid” mana, and it means you can cast the card with either red OR blue mana. But, due to what the card does, you get a bonus if you use both red AND blue mana when you cast it. Using both colors reduces you opponent’s creature’s power by 1, while increasing your creature’s power by 1. It can be used when you’re being attacked or when YOU attack, but make sure not to cast it until your opponent has declared their blockers, in order to get the most out of the surprise it’s creating. This card can completely change the outcome of the attack! Your last card is Lightning Bolt. In Magic’s 21 year history, this is considered one of the most powerful instants ever created. It can do 3 points of damage to either a creature or directly to a player. The fact that it costs just 1 red mana is what makes it so strong; it’s efficiency at its highest. You can cast it to do damage to an opponent, but chances are it’s better to use it on a creature. Don’t forget, if a big creature is attacking you (say a 4/4 Beast token, or Nath of the Gilt-Leaf from the green/black deck), you can block with a small 1/1 Thopter creature, then cast Lightning Bolt to do 3 more damage, thereby doing a total of 4 damage and killing your opponents attacker!