I'll be adding the third votes to both vengeful dreams and wall of omens. Wall is great but we just need space. Omens I was indifferent towards but FTW's arguments have convinced me it isn't worth a spot. I have adjusted the basic count as a 6-2 split. I believe with our wraths needing double white 2 plains is an acceptable number.
I think we can do away with a few snapcaster mages honestly. I'd say we want at least 1 for gifts packages but its not something we want to see a lot of. Dig through time will usually be eating up our yard and even though our instant and sorcery count is high cards like Force of will are kind of a nonbo. That said I'm going to vote to cut 3 Snapcasters leaving 1 for gifts packages. It is possible that we actually want to leave 2 but I'm voting three for now, I can always vote to keep 1 if others think 2 is right.
I'd also like to voice that I think Frantic Search is fantastic for this deck. It fuels delve, digs for combo pieces, and can be an accelerant if we have any bounce lands in play.
While it's true that the 4th Gifts ungiven is pretty bad that doesn't change the fact that we want to see Gifts every game. I think 4 is the right number just to increase how often we see it. Plus redundant Gifts can just be pitched to frantic search or force of will.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
I also vote against 8 Seat of the Synod so that we aren't cheating. Those should probably be Islands or some kind of UW dual. We want at least 1 Plains or Hallowed Fountain, otherwise Flooded Strand really sucks!
Seat is only there as a placeholder for the land base.... it's not meant to be a serious addition.....
I know... This was my joking way of reminding people we needed to add the real manabase before we cut down to 60 and finish the deck. Gumgod, thanks for adding Hallowed Fountains!
I will also vote against Sphinx's Revelation. We need space, and it is by far the slowest draw option. We already have 4 Ponder, 4 DTT, Frantic Seach, Gifts, and Snapcaster...
I agree 4 Snapcaster is excessive. It's kind of a non-bo with Force of Will and Dig Through Time. I think we want at least 2 though. A 2nd copy in the list makes the 2nd Gifts that much better, enabling so many more piles. Also, there should be no shortage of good targets for it (Counterspell, Ponder, wraths, Noxious Revival, Gifts). 2-3 Snapcasters is probably where we want to be, if we have the space. I'll vote to cut 1 copy for now.
Since we need more cuts, I'll vote down 2 Frantic Search too. Yes, it can fuel Delve or accelerate mana, but it's also card disadvantage, and we don't have that much stuff we can abuse in the graveyard. With 4 Gifts, we'll have a Gifts to spare to tutor Alignment to the graveyard.
Scrabbling ClawsIS A RENAMEDPhyrexian Furnace. Is there a reason to argue over different versions of the same card? granted the Furnace specifically calls for precision removal, the claws don't
The existence of Furnace in the list would mean both players are forced to keep their graveyards in order for the whole game. It's just a pain.
What's the reason to defend the worse one? Sentimental attachment to the suggestion?
There aren't many cards that even manipulate graveyards, than care around graveyard order. Search for Survivors is one of the few cards that even shuffle graveyards. Where this deck doesn't need to worry about graveyard manipulation outside of exiling the Alignemnt- to which i'll concede the Claws are 'better'- we really don't need either to stick around past the cursory exile. so, imo, the second ability is still better than using it's original ability. The net draw is always a premium option.
I've already conceded defending the furnace- it is the nature of GMaD; many of you modern players proclaim the newer cards as "strictly better" than older ones because the scope of the game has changed. The only "sentimental attachment" i have with the card is it's Legacy origins, i had no idea that the Claws even existed.
I just don't like cards being removed because they're a "strictly better" option out there that wasn't added, and people aren't fully considering the aspects of the cards added to the deck.
I'm honestly surprised that Enlightened Tutor/Idlyic tutor didn't get added for the opportune fetch.
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SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
I just don't like cards being removed because they're a "strictly better" option out there that wasn't added, and people aren't fully considering the aspects of the cards added to the deck.
For what it's worth, I voted to remove the furnace because I didn't think it was necessary. I would have voted against scrabbling claws at that point too. I don't think they should have ever gotten rid of graveyard order matters. Poor Nether Shadow will never be printed again.
Even though I added it I'll also vote to cut Sphinx's Rev by 2. I'm going to adjust my vote on Snapcaster to -2. Again as FTW said the second snapcaster gives us more Gift pile options for the second or third gifts.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
There aren't many cards that even manipulate graveyards, than care around graveyard order.
The issue was not that cards might manipulate graveyard order. It's that human beings could. Casual players do not always maintain proper graveyard order. Some cards with multiple effects and/or sacrifice costs require cards to enter the graveyard in a certain order. Players do not always do this carefully, causing the graveyard order to be wrong from the beginning. Sometimes players grab cards out of graveyards to look at them, consider reanimation options, or plan Delving, and they don't always return the cards to the correct spot. Normally, it doesn't matter in casual.
Including a "graveyard order matters" card in the deck forces all players to be vigilant about graveyard order in case the card ever hits the table. That adds another dimension of anal-retentiveness to the game without enhancing the fun. I think that's why Wizards removed "graveyard order matters" in the first place, no? When there's a functional equivalent that doesn't care about graveyard order, using the equivalent avoids this hassle.
I remember rampant cheating with Nether Shadow, leading to silly arguments about when things died a few turns ago. It's not easy to police graveyard order, since it may involve backtracking several turns, and (at least for me) tracking graveyard order adds no fun to the game. It's possible other players enjoy it.
I just don't like cards being removed because they're a "strictly better" option out there that wasn't added, and people aren't fully considering the aspects of the cards added to the deck.
we really don't need either to stick around past the cursory exile. so, imo, the second ability is still better than using it's original ability. The net draw is always a premium option.
If someone added Cancel, you seriously wouldn't suggest Counterspell instead? The "strictly better" case isn't just about interacting with opponent's graveyard manipulation in some corner cases. It also relates to comboing off. Claws can use either the first or second ability to exile Alignment. Furnace can usually only use the second ability.
Why would the first ability matter? The net draw is not always the best option. The first ability doesn't need mana. As I said before, sometimes being able to exile Alignment without paying an extra mana is more relevant than getting to draw a card. It really depends on the game state, how much counterspell mana you need to leave up, and how much pressure you have to win this turn instead of next turn. Mana is a valuable resource. There's no reason to waste it if you don't have to. Claws lets you decide whether drawing a card or saving a mana is better. Furnace doesn't. That's a relevant strategic difference that comes from "fully considering" how the card will perform in the deck.
Anyway, this is all irrelevant since Furnace was voted out (and Claws probably would have been too). I just wouldn't be so quick to dismissing disagreement as a bunch of pesky new players not thinking things through. That is not always the case.
Back on topic, further cuts seem difficult. With 4 Ponder and other draw spells and 4 Azorius Chancery, do we need 24 lands? Maybe we could drop 2.
Trying so hard to stay on topic, I'm going to vote against two lands just to trim the numbers. As FTW1987 mentioned that we have ponder to help us find the lands in the early turns.
I'll vote against 1 snapcaster. Casting it is so much value, but we need to cut numbers to get to 60. Combining the votes and removing one. (2 @ -1 and 1 @ -2)
I tried to ignore it in my last post because it seemed like trolling, but in response to "many of you modern players", I have to give my two cents. My first cards were Revised Edition and I keep a thread about 93/94 going. Please don't assume that because I'm not familiar with one card that I only know new cards. Furnace was a neat card, and so were the dreams cycle cards, but there's no room for them in this deck. It's not personal, it's not because they are old, they were just not needed.
I played from Tempest to Mirrodin. As i stated prior, i didn't know that Claws existed as I don't scour spoilers of the new sets when they come out.
If someone added Cancel, you seriously wouldn't suggest Counterspell instead?
Depends on availability and budget. Why not run Foil in place of Force of Will? I run "strictly worse" cards in my decks because I'm not willing to spend a lot of money on cards for a casual deck [I run Gaea's Cradle in my Elf deck, and that's pretty much the most expensive card in any of my decks.]
Back on topic, further cuts seem difficult. With 4 Ponder and other draw spells and 4 Azorius Chancery, do we need 24 lands? Maybe we could drop 2.
Since i haven't contributed to the cutting phase, I do agree that this shouldn't be a mana intensive deck. Voting out two land slots.
Voting against a copy of Snapcaster Mage. What do we plan on flashing back? Gifts? Search? It's a nifty mechanic, but it's not truly vital.
Also voting against Auramancer. Do we have variants of Monk Idealist for Gifts to fetch? All in all, I dislike running single copies of cards that effectively do the same thing. [That's something i don't like about Gifts Ungiven oriented decks. lots of singletons.] why not just run multiples of either?
SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
We run 1 Auramancer and 1 Monk Idealist so we can Gifts for both at the same time if necessary. Gifts Ungiven requires the cards to have different names so if you ran 2 Auramancer instead you wouldn't be able to grab both at once.
I'll vote to cut two lands. I think we have plenty of cards to smooth out our draws and bounce lands are kind of 2 lands in 1 anyways so I feel like we can skimp on them a little.
I'll also vote to cut 1 Frantic Search. I believe 3 is the correct number for this effect.
That leaves us with 61 cards and I still think the last cut should be a second snapcaster mage.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
I'm going to vote against a copy of Frantic Search so we can call this deck done. The untap mechanic of Frantic search is really powerful in combo decks that can make extra mana with their lands (like high tide), and free looting is quite powerful, but I think it's one of the weaker cards in the deck as it currently stands. Third vote, cut.
I think we can do away with a few snapcaster mages honestly. I'd say we want at least 1 for gifts packages but its not something we want to see a lot of. Dig through time will usually be eating up our yard and even though our instant and sorcery count is high cards like Force of will are kind of a nonbo. That said I'm going to vote to cut 3 Snapcasters leaving 1 for gifts packages. It is possible that we actually want to leave 2 but I'm voting three for now, I can always vote to keep 1 if others think 2 is right.
I'd also like to voice that I think Frantic Search is fantastic for this deck. It fuels delve, digs for combo pieces, and can be an accelerant if we have any bounce lands in play.
While it's true that the 4th Gifts ungiven is pretty bad that doesn't change the fact that we want to see Gifts every game. I think 4 is the right number just to increase how often we see it. Plus redundant Gifts can just be pitched to frantic search or force of will.
1 Auramancer
1 Monk Idealist
4 Snapcaster Mage (1 @ -3)
Instants (24):
4 Force of Will
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Noxious Revival
4 Dig Through Time (1 @ - 1)
4 Counterspell
4 Frantic Search (1 @ -2)
4 Gifts Ungiven (1 @ -1)
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Ponder
1 Day of Judgment (1 @ -1)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Enchantments (6):
4 Hedron Alignment
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
Lands (24):
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Flooded Strand
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Auramancer
1 Monk Idealist
4 Snapcaster Mage (1 @ -3)
Instants (24):
4 Force of Will
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Noxious Revival
4 Dig Through Time (1 @ - 1)
4 Counterspell
4 Frantic Search (1 @ -2)
4 Gifts Ungiven (1 @ -1)
2 Sphinx's Revelation (1 @ -2)
4 Ponder
1 Day of Judgment (1 @ -1)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Enchantments (6):
4 Hedron Alignment
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
Lands (24):
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Flooded Strand
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
2 Plains
I know... This was my joking way of reminding people we needed to add the real manabase before we cut down to 60 and finish the deck. Gumgod, thanks for adding Hallowed Fountains!
I will also vote against Sphinx's Revelation. We need space, and it is by far the slowest draw option. We already have 4 Ponder, 4 DTT, Frantic Seach, Gifts, and Snapcaster...
I agree 4 Snapcaster is excessive. It's kind of a non-bo with Force of Will and Dig Through Time. I think we want at least 2 though. A 2nd copy in the list makes the 2nd Gifts that much better, enabling so many more piles. Also, there should be no shortage of good targets for it (Counterspell, Ponder, wraths, Noxious Revival, Gifts). 2-3 Snapcasters is probably where we want to be, if we have the space. I'll vote to cut 1 copy for now.
Since we need more cuts, I'll vote down 2 Frantic Search too. Yes, it can fuel Delve or accelerate mana, but it's also card disadvantage, and we don't have that much stuff we can abuse in the graveyard. With 4 Gifts, we'll have a Gifts to spare to tutor Alignment to the graveyard.
1 Auramancer
1 Monk Idealist
4 Snapcaster Mage (1 @ -3, 1 @ -1)
Instants (24):
4 Force of Will
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Noxious Revival
4 Dig Through Time (1 @ - 1)
4 Counterspell
4 Frantic Search (2 @ -2)
4 Gifts Ungiven (1 @ -1)
2 Sphinx's Revelation (2 @ -2)
4 Ponder
1 Day of Judgment (1 @ -1)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Enchantments (6):
4 Hedron Alignment
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
Lands (24):
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Flooded Strand
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
2 Plains
There aren't many cards that even manipulate graveyards, than care around graveyard order. Search for Survivors is one of the few cards that even shuffle graveyards. Where this deck doesn't need to worry about graveyard manipulation outside of exiling the Alignemnt- to which i'll concede the Claws are 'better'- we really don't need either to stick around past the cursory exile. so, imo, the second ability is still better than using it's original ability. The net draw is always a premium option.
I've already conceded defending the furnace- it is the nature of GMaD; many of you modern players proclaim the newer cards as "strictly better" than older ones because the scope of the game has changed. The only "sentimental attachment" i have with the card is it's Legacy origins, i had no idea that the Claws even existed.
I just don't like cards being removed because they're a "strictly better" option out there that wasn't added, and people aren't fully considering the aspects of the cards added to the deck.
I'm honestly surprised that Enlightened Tutor/Idlyic tutor didn't get added for the opportune fetch.
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
1 Auramancer
1 Monk Idealist
4 Snapcaster Mage (1 @ -2, 1 @ -1)
Instants (22):
4 Force of Will
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Noxious Revival
4 Dig Through Time (1 @ - 1)
4 Counterspell
4 Frantic Search (2 @ -2)
4 Gifts Ungiven (1 @ -1)
4 Ponder
1 Day of Judgment (1 @ -1)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Enchantments (6):
4 Hedron Alignment
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Flooded Strand
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
2 Plains
The issue was not that cards might manipulate graveyard order. It's that human beings could. Casual players do not always maintain proper graveyard order. Some cards with multiple effects and/or sacrifice costs require cards to enter the graveyard in a certain order. Players do not always do this carefully, causing the graveyard order to be wrong from the beginning. Sometimes players grab cards out of graveyards to look at them, consider reanimation options, or plan Delving, and they don't always return the cards to the correct spot. Normally, it doesn't matter in casual.
Including a "graveyard order matters" card in the deck forces all players to be vigilant about graveyard order in case the card ever hits the table. That adds another dimension of anal-retentiveness to the game without enhancing the fun. I think that's why Wizards removed "graveyard order matters" in the first place, no? When there's a functional equivalent that doesn't care about graveyard order, using the equivalent avoids this hassle.
... I've been playing since before Phyrexian Furnace was printed.
I remember rampant cheating with Nether Shadow, leading to silly arguments about when things died a few turns ago. It's not easy to police graveyard order, since it may involve backtracking several turns, and (at least for me) tracking graveyard order adds no fun to the game. It's possible other players enjoy it.
If someone added Cancel, you seriously wouldn't suggest Counterspell instead? The "strictly better" case isn't just about interacting with opponent's graveyard manipulation in some corner cases. It also relates to comboing off. Claws can use either the first or second ability to exile Alignment. Furnace can usually only use the second ability.
Why would the first ability matter? The net draw is not always the best option. The first ability doesn't need mana. As I said before, sometimes being able to exile Alignment without paying an extra mana is more relevant than getting to draw a card. It really depends on the game state, how much counterspell mana you need to leave up, and how much pressure you have to win this turn instead of next turn. Mana is a valuable resource. There's no reason to waste it if you don't have to. Claws lets you decide whether drawing a card or saving a mana is better. Furnace doesn't. That's a relevant strategic difference that comes from "fully considering" how the card will perform in the deck.
Anyway, this is all irrelevant since Furnace was voted out (and Claws probably would have been too). I just wouldn't be so quick to dismissing disagreement as a bunch of pesky new players not thinking things through. That is not always the case.
Back on topic, further cuts seem difficult. With 4 Ponder and other draw spells and 4 Azorius Chancery, do we need 24 lands? Maybe we could drop 2.
I'll vote against 1 snapcaster. Casting it is so much value, but we need to cut numbers to get to 60. Combining the votes and removing one. (2 @ -1 and 1 @ -2)
1 Auramancer
1 Monk Idealist
3 Snapcaster Mage (1 @ -1)
Instants (22):
4 Force of Will
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Noxious Revival
4 Dig Through Time (1 @ - 1)
4 Counterspell
4 Frantic Search (2 @ -2)
4 Gifts Ungiven (1 @ -1)
4 Ponder
1 Day of Judgment (1 @ -1)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Enchantments (6):
4 Hedron Alignment
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Flooded Strand
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
2 Plains
I tried to ignore it in my last post because it seemed like trolling, but in response to "many of you modern players", I have to give my two cents. My first cards were Revised Edition and I keep a thread about 93/94 going. Please don't assume that because I'm not familiar with one card that I only know new cards. Furnace was a neat card, and so were the dreams cycle cards, but there's no room for them in this deck. It's not personal, it's not because they are old, they were just not needed.
I played from Tempest to Mirrodin. As i stated prior, i didn't know that Claws existed as I don't scour spoilers of the new sets when they come out.
Depends on availability and budget. Why not run Foil in place of Force of Will? I run "strictly worse" cards in my decks because I'm not willing to spend a lot of money on cards for a casual deck [I run Gaea's Cradle in my Elf deck, and that's pretty much the most expensive card in any of my decks.]
Since i haven't contributed to the cutting phase, I do agree that this shouldn't be a mana intensive deck. Voting out two land slots.
Voting against a copy of Snapcaster Mage. What do we plan on flashing back? Gifts? Search? It's a nifty mechanic, but it's not truly vital.
Also voting against Auramancer. Do we have variants of Monk Idealist for Gifts to fetch? All in all, I dislike running single copies of cards that effectively do the same thing. [That's something i don't like about Gifts Ungiven oriented decks. lots of singletons.] why not just run multiples of either?
1 Auramancer (1 @-1)
1 Monk Idealist
3 Snapcaster Mage (2 @ -1)
Instants (22):
4 Force of Will
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Noxious Revival
4 Dig Through Time (1 @ - 1)
4 Counterspell
4 Frantic Search (2 @ -2)
4 Gifts Ungiven (1 @ -1)
4 Ponder
1 Day of Judgment (1 @ -1)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Enchantments (6):
4 Hedron Alignment
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Flooded Strand
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
2 Plains
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
I'll vote to cut two lands. I think we have plenty of cards to smooth out our draws and bounce lands are kind of 2 lands in 1 anyways so I feel like we can skimp on them a little.
I'll also vote to cut 1 Frantic Search. I believe 3 is the correct number for this effect.
That leaves us with 61 cards and I still think the last cut should be a second snapcaster mage.
1 Auramancer (1 @-1)
1 Monk Idealist
3 Snapcaster Mage (1 @ -1)
Instants (21):
4 Force of Will
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Noxious Revival
4 Dig Through Time (1 @ - 1)
4 Counterspell
3 Frantic Search (2 @ -1)
4 Gifts Ungiven (1 @ -1)
4 Ponder
1 Day of Judgment (1 @ -1)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Enchantments (6):
4 Hedron Alignment
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Flooded Strand
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
1 Plains
1 Auramancer (1 @-1)
1 Monk Idealist
3 Snapcaster Mage (1 @ -1)
Instants (20):
4 Force of Will
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Noxious Revival
4 Dig Through Time (1 @ - 1)
4 Counterspell
2 Frantic Search
4 Gifts Ungiven (1 @ -1)
4 Ponder
1 Day of Judgment (1 @ -1)
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
Enchantments (6):
4 Hedron Alignment
1 Propaganda
1 Ghostly Prison
4 Temple of Enlightenment
4 Flooded Strand
4 Azorius Chancery
4 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
1 Plains
1. RabidVacin
2. Quendalon
3. FTW1987
4. kamakazi339
5. GumgodMTG
6. BlackVise
7. Selvaxri
Voted to remove cards in cutting phase:
8. GumgodMTG
9. kamakazi339
10. FTW1987
11. Selvaxri
Sending PM now.