Dimir is my absolute favorite guild in the game of magic. I already have a mill deck but it isn't a Dimir deck in my opinion so this one is an attempt to do just that. It is based around milling only the cards that I see as a threat or as and inconvenience at any given time. I would use Wizened Snitches in order to make sure I know when to mill them a card or so. Dimir Infiltrator coupled with Helm of the Ghastlord will take care of anything I missed as well as giving me needed card draw to maintain my advantage. Szadek, Lord of Secrets is in there as the Parun of his guild. and Circu as the champion. I know this deck is big and I would like any feedback and suggestions on cuts or anything I may have missed. OR even if you think the entire ideal is unworkable
As I said before I didn't come up with this to be traditional mill. I did it to use control THROUGH MILLING and denial of cards. Psychic drain is in there for life gain if my ideal gets countered and or interrupted and I need hard mill and lifegain. Also im thinking of dropping memory sluice altogether. Let me know what yall think. I appreciate any help as always.
It is targeted mill rather than hard mill. I don't know how to explain it. I want it to be controlled quality rather than quantity. Damage with dimir infiltrator would be the second option.
i only own one glimpse and its in my mill deck linked in my signature. Im not sure if invisible stalker is affiliated with Dimir keeping with the hard theme of my thing. Tome scour is hard mill that's why I was going to drop memory sluice. I want the deck to be calculated in its milling..... I do however like the scepter.
as for psychic strike I wonder why you think it worse than perplex? I think the given option in perplex makes psychic strike the better option
Okay so i get you on that mill thing, dimir infiltrator though is not optimal unless, you can only transmute it for 1 other card and it is that draw/discard card, which isnt relevant to fetch. You can swich him out for things like invisible stalker
And let go of that card that counters and mills 2, keep mill and counter separate, its cheaper. For example, negate / counterspell, and some tips on mill is glimpse the unthinkabletome scour , these are nice to combo with isochron scepter
Nope. Ischron only works with instants.
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If nothing else, please put in Dimir Charm. It looks like it'd be awesome here AND it fits your Dimir theme.
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
If nothing else, please put in Dimir Charm. It looks like it'd be awesome here AND it fits your Dimir theme.
Dimir charm I like. I totally forgot about it..... what would you say for cuts? and do you even find merit to what I m trying to do? Also having seen lantern of insight I know I could use those rather than the snitches. Having said that im unsure if I would want to being as the snitches are one of my few real defenses from anything with wings
I would say, most of all, work on your lands. Even with 2 Dimir Signets, I'd have 24 lands, especially in a semi-control deck. You don't necessarily need expensive mana-fixing lands like Watery Grave, but you do need enough lands.
As for cuts: honestly, that depends on what your deck wants to do, beyond simply being a Dimir deck. Which, by the way, I think is actually a pretty cool idea for a deck: but it still doesn't tell you what the deck does. If you want to focus on mill, really double down on that. If you want Top Control, work more on the control aspects of the deck and take out most of the things that don't emphasize that aspect. (Also, would Dimir Machinations be good here, or too expensive?)
Dimir also has a variety of other things it can do: you could focus on cipher (btw, Paranoid Delusions would be good in a mill deck anyway even if you don't focus on this. Whispering Madness is cool too, although not if you move more in a control direction, since often it'll help your opponent more than you in such decks.) Cipher would also work with things like Circu, Dimir Lobotomist and Consuming Aberration. t
You could use lots of unblockables. This also works with cipher, and you could use your things like Helm of the Ghastlord with them.
Most of all, using true control I think would usually imply a LOT more removal and less creatures. A bit more removal might be good no matter what -- maybe an Aetherspouts? -- and you've already got some counterspells and card draw.
Regardless of what you decide, I'd take out Belltower Sphinx. It doesn't do enough to mill or to attack, and blocking isn't usually what you want to be doing with your valuable five-mana slot unless you've got a REALLY good blocker.
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Belltower sphinx is in there more as a denial blocker than anything. I don't havw anything to bloack flying and its there to make people not wanna go through the air even if they can kill him. % milled cards isn't small.
Im not sure of any other dimir affiliated unblockables.
I want this deck to be TARGETED MILL. More top control than anything. I want to deny them the intregal parts of their deck and make them try to win with their 2nd/3rd tier cards.
Think about it like taking the generals and the rest of the command structure out of the army and making all the privates try to win the war. I come from a military background so that's the best I can do to try to make it plain.
Like I said I have a Mill deck. Its in my sig im not trying to build a mass mill deck. My buddy found Horrifying Revelation which I like. Aetherspouts is interesting but not fitting for my theme I don't think.
Im not trying to shoot down everything people suggest im just trying to keep strict to my ideal and to Dimir
Maybe something like this but I don't know what to cut
Hey there, I would play more than 20 lands + 2x Dimir Signet here. I suggest starting with around 24 lands (+2 signets) as there is quite a bit of 4 drops, X-spells, and the curve ends at 7 mana. You could try adding either Duskmantle, House of Shadow and/or Nephalia Drownyard here. They fit the Dimir guild theme & the mill aspect of the deck.
The cards I would consider cutting first are Belltower Sphinx then Cathartic Adept/Vedalken Entrancer. With Belltower Sphinx, you don't get to choose when to mill your opponent; your opponent actually chooses when to mill themself. If they have a good card on top of their deck, they simply won't attack into/block/deal damage to Belltower Sphinx. Ultimately, they get to draw the card they want, which defeats the purpose of top-control.
Thanks for the reply crispy. The reason ive left cathardic is because I don't have anything else in the way of one drops in the deck as well as its mill component. Vedalken Entrancer has been one ive been debating dropping totally but for some reason I love that card. Might sideboard him to save personal face lol.
I like nightveil instead of Belltower. Belltower is another card I love. (most of these cards came from my first ever deck Dimir Intrigues)
Do you have any ideas on a decent 1-2 drop for the slot that fits the profile? Invisible Stalker has been suggested but idk if it fits dimir. Thoughts?
I know cutting spells for lands is hard, but you really need to if you want to be able to cast your other cool Dimir spells.
I might cut the Dimir Infiltrator. I know it's an awesome card -- seriously, I play it and love it, it blocks, attacks, and searches -- but here you don't have quite enough things to search for with it at two mana. Alternatively, you could cut the Helm of the Ghastlord -- it's an awesome card, but is a bit 'win-more' in that, although it's great when your board is ahead or at parity, it does very little when you're behind. (Here's an article about this from Level One: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/li/quadrant-theory-2014-08-20.
Also: If you want to remove their best cards, would you consider something like Stain the Mind to search for individual cards in their library and exile them? It could be used to directly get rid of their best cards, and Sadistic Sacrament kicked mills them enough to be a win con.
This looks like a really cool deck -- whatever you decide, it'll be interesting!
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"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Helm is the card I view as helping me to keep dominance. Using dimir infiltrator with helm will allow me to force them do discard cards I missed (if any) with my top control mindset. The only problem I see with things like stain the mind is it requires me to know what card to name. In my casual group decks are built destroyed and revamped sometimes one to two times in a day. My group other than myself doesn't mind tearing apart their decks and going a totally different direction. I however like to build around an ideal then im loathe to destroy them especially if I put money in them.
Sadistic Sacrament is nasty. I like it. It might fit but the BBB might be hard to do
To develop on that ideal though maybe Deathcult Rogue is a viable ideal?
Aye, BBB is really hard without expensive lands or skewing your land base towards it. Still, it'd be decent. Also, there are tons of other options for similar things -- I found a list in the MTG Salvation Wiki under "Capping". There are also several cards that make them reveal their hand, let you exile a card from it, and then search their library for and exile other cards from it (the flagship card for that type being Lobotomy).
By Deathcult Rogue as an 'ideal', do you mean do the forums think that it could be built around as a deck, or be put in this deck? I don't know how others would feel about this, but personally, I think that A) the unblockable deck is really cool, with things like Helm and cipher cards, but B) I really don't know if there's space in this deck. Maybe two decks?
My first deck that I really loved and worked to build was based on the awesome Gatecrash Dimir deck and was UBW cipher-extort, so I've always loved the Dimir colors. Good luck!
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Well im only sitting at 14 creatures. I figure I can make that 17. It woukd gimme another creature to use with helm rather than just infiltrator. Put one more helm in to make it 4 and have a better chance of drawing them.
I would use Extirpate but its damn expensive. Targeted mill then deny the use of that card as a whole.
Drop one infiltrator and add in 3 deathcults. Maybe I should drop one circu because I can transmute for him?
If yall had to choose one way to trim spells/artifacts what would it be?
Heres my final build. Ive ordered the cards I might need and will put it fully together soon. Thanks everyone for the help and if you have any last minute suggestions feel free to tell me! I really hope this works because my buddy says its terrible lol. I enjoy the ideal though.
2x Szadek, Lord of Secrets
3x Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
4x Wizened Snitches
3x Vedalken Entrancer
3x Lurking Informant
4x Dimir Infiltrator
4x Cathartic Adept
2x Belltower Sphinx
3x Clutch of the Undercity
3x Helm of the Ghastlord
3x Perplex
4x Memory Sluice
4x Psychic Drain
4x Consult the Necrosages
3x Psychic Strike
2x Dimir Signet
Lands: 20
4x Dimir Guildgate
8x Swamp
8x Island
As I said before I didn't come up with this to be traditional mill. I did it to use control THROUGH MILLING and denial of cards. Psychic drain is in there for life gain if my ideal gets countered and or interrupted and I need hard mill and lifegain. Also im thinking of dropping memory sluice altogether. Let me know what yall think. I appreciate any help as always.
as for psychic strike I wonder why you think it worse than perplex? I think the given option in perplex makes psychic strike the better option
Nope. Ischron only works with instants.
It ignores the actual mill goal and just works on the "top control" to prevent them from ever drawing anything good.
If nothing else, please put in Dimir Charm. It looks like it'd be awesome here AND it fits your Dimir theme.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Dimir charm I like. I totally forgot about it..... what would you say for cuts? and do you even find merit to what I m trying to do? Also having seen lantern of insight I know I could use those rather than the snitches. Having said that im unsure if I would want to being as the snitches are one of my few real defenses from anything with wings
1x Szadek, Lord of Secrets
3x Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
2x Vedalken Entrancer
4x Dimir Infiltrator
3x Cathartic Adept
3x Belltower Sphinx
3x Clutch of the Undercity
3x Helm of the Ghastlord
4x Psychic Drain
3x Consult the Necrosages
3x Psychic Strike
3x Dimir Charm
2x Dimir Signet
4x Lantern of Insight
3x Codex Shredder
Lands: 20
4x Dimir Guildgate
8x Swamp
8x Island
Maybe something like this but I don't know what to cut
As for cuts: honestly, that depends on what your deck wants to do, beyond simply being a Dimir deck. Which, by the way, I think is actually a pretty cool idea for a deck: but it still doesn't tell you what the deck does. If you want to focus on mill, really double down on that. If you want Top Control, work more on the control aspects of the deck and take out most of the things that don't emphasize that aspect. (Also, would Dimir Machinations be good here, or too expensive?)
Dimir also has a variety of other things it can do: you could focus on cipher (btw, Paranoid Delusions would be good in a mill deck anyway even if you don't focus on this. Whispering Madness is cool too, although not if you move more in a control direction, since often it'll help your opponent more than you in such decks.) Cipher would also work with things like Circu, Dimir Lobotomist and Consuming Aberration. t
You could use lots of unblockables. This also works with cipher, and you could use your things like Helm of the Ghastlord with them.
Most of all, using true control I think would usually imply a LOT more removal and less creatures. A bit more removal might be good no matter what -- maybe an Aetherspouts? -- and you've already got some counterspells and card draw.
Regardless of what you decide, I'd take out Belltower Sphinx. It doesn't do enough to mill or to attack, and blocking isn't usually what you want to be doing with your valuable five-mana slot unless you've got a REALLY good blocker.
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Im not sure of any other dimir affiliated unblockables.
I want this deck to be TARGETED MILL. More top control than anything. I want to deny them the intregal parts of their deck and make them try to win with their 2nd/3rd tier cards.
Think about it like taking the generals and the rest of the command structure out of the army and making all the privates try to win the war. I come from a military background so that's the best I can do to try to make it plain.
Like I said I have a Mill deck. Its in my sig im not trying to build a mass mill deck. My buddy found Horrifying Revelation which I like. Aetherspouts is interesting but not fitting for my theme I don't think.
Im not trying to shoot down everything people suggest im just trying to keep strict to my ideal and to Dimir
The cards I would consider cutting first are Belltower Sphinx then Cathartic Adept/Vedalken Entrancer. With Belltower Sphinx, you don't get to choose when to mill your opponent; your opponent actually chooses when to mill themself. If they have a good card on top of their deck, they simply won't attack into/block/deal damage to Belltower Sphinx. Ultimately, they get to draw the card they want, which defeats the purpose of top-control.
Cathartic Adept is going to be worse than Codex Shredder in most situations. I would play the 4th copy of Codex Shredder before playing Cathartic Adept since it has summoning sickness, and an activation cost of U. Vedalken Entrancer has the same disadvantages as Cathartic Adept.
Lastly, playing UB creatures over Belltower Sphinx/Cathartic Adept/Vedalken Entrancer (which are mono-U) would better synergize with Circu, Dimir Lobotomist & Helm of the Ghastlord. I think Nightveil Specter would be a nice addition here as it has the UB synergy, evasion which makes connecting with Helm of the Ghastlord easier, and of course the top-control element.
I like nightveil instead of Belltower. Belltower is another card I love. (most of these cards came from my first ever deck Dimir Intrigues)
Do you have any ideas on a decent 1-2 drop for the slot that fits the profile? Invisible Stalker has been suggested but idk if it fits dimir. Thoughts?
1x Szadek, Lord of Secrets
3x Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
4x Dimir Infiltrator
3x Cathartic Adept
3x Nightveil Specter
Spells: 19
3x Clutch of the Undercity
3x Helm of the Ghastlord
4x Psychic Drain
3x Consult the Necrosages
3x Psychic Strike
3x Dimir Charm
2x Dimir Signet
4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
Lands: 20
4x Dimir Guildgate
8x Swamp
8x Island
3x Vedalken Entrancer
3x Dimir Cutpurse
I have plenty of duskmantel. The problem is im having trouble slimming already to 60 if I add more land that gets even harder.
I might cut the Dimir Infiltrator. I know it's an awesome card -- seriously, I play it and love it, it blocks, attacks, and searches -- but here you don't have quite enough things to search for with it at two mana. Alternatively, you could cut the Helm of the Ghastlord -- it's an awesome card, but is a bit 'win-more' in that, although it's great when your board is ahead or at parity, it does very little when you're behind. (Here's an article about this from Level One: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/li/quadrant-theory-2014-08-20.
Also: If you want to remove their best cards, would you consider something like Stain the Mind to search for individual cards in their library and exile them? It could be used to directly get rid of their best cards, and Sadistic Sacrament kicked mills them enough to be a win con.
This looks like a really cool deck -- whatever you decide, it'll be interesting!
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Sadistic Sacrament is nasty. I like it. It might fit but the BBB might be hard to do
To develop on that ideal though maybe Deathcult Rogue is a viable ideal?
By Deathcult Rogue as an 'ideal', do you mean do the forums think that it could be built around as a deck, or be put in this deck? I don't know how others would feel about this, but personally, I think that A) the unblockable deck is really cool, with things like Helm and cipher cards, but B) I really don't know if there's space in this deck. Maybe two decks?
My first deck that I really loved and worked to build was based on the awesome Gatecrash Dimir deck and was UBW cipher-extort, so I've always loved the Dimir colors. Good luck!
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
I would use Extirpate but its damn expensive. Targeted mill then deny the use of that card as a whole.
Drop one infiltrator and add in 3 deathcults. Maybe I should drop one circu because I can transmute for him?
If yall had to choose one way to trim spells/artifacts what would it be?
1x Szadek, Lord of Secrets
3x Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
3x Dimir Infiltrator
3x Cathartic Adept
3x Nightveil Specter
3x Deathcult Rogue
Spells: 19
3x Clutch of the Undercity
3x Helm of the Ghastlord
4x Psychic Drain
3x Consult the Necrosages
3x Psychic Strike
3x Dimir Charm
2x Dimir Signet
4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
Lands: 20
4x Dimir Guildgate
8x Swamp
8x Island
3x Vedalken Entrancer
3x Dimir Cutpurse
1x Szadek, Lord of Secrets
3x Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
3x Dimir Infiltrator
3x Cathartic Adept
3x Nightveil Specter
2x Deathcult Rogue
Spells: 17
3x Clutch of the Undercity
3x Helm of the Ghastlord
3x Psychic Drain
3x Consult the Necrosages
3x Lobotomy
2x Dimir Charm
4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
Lands: 20
4x Dimir Guildgate
8x Swamp
8x Island
3x Vedalken Entrancer
3x Dimir Cutpurse
3x Psychic Strike
2x Dimir Signet
1x Helm of the Ghastlord
Heres my final build. Ive ordered the cards I might need and will put it fully together soon. Thanks everyone for the help and if you have any last minute suggestions feel free to tell me! I really hope this works because my buddy says its terrible lol. I enjoy the ideal though.