So I'm making a blue white control deck and need a good finisher. Preferably not Baneslayer Angel because I think it's a terrible card. Any suggestions are welcome:
I guess I need some creatures, probably a Wrath of God or three. I was maybe thinking about Squadron Hawk, but this is for the casual table and I only have one JTMS. I also don't have any of the Swords, and don't really think I'm going to drop 15-20$ on one. If I do get Squadron Hawks then I would pick up some Loxodon Warhammer and what not for the Stoneforge package.
Any suggestions on where to go with this shell of a deck?
Umm, okay some strange logic there. Could you explain why your thinking about Squadron Hawk? It's a weenie creature and control decks absolutely do not want weenie creatures. Also I could understand if you say you don't want Baneslayer Angel because its insanely expensive or if you said because it is way overplayed and to trendy of a card but to say because its a terrible card is nuts. Stoneforge Mystic is another really strange option for a control deck. Control decks very rarely use equipments, I don't think I've seen a control deck use maybe more than one Sword of Fire and Ice and one Umezawa's Jitte and even thats rare.
Onto the deck. White / Blue control decks want basically seven things:
1. Bounce
2. Counters
3. Defensive Creatures
4. Draw
5. Removal
6. Sweepers
7. Win Condition
Now you don't necessarily need all seven, although I generally personally prefer to. For example, if you have enough removal than bounce isn't necessary and if you have enough removal + mass removal you may not need defensive creatures.
Onto each: Bounce:
Your best bets for bounce are Boomerang, Into the Roil, and Echoing Truth. And for mass bounce there is Wash Out, which is amazing against mono colored decks, and Evacuation, which is really good if your playing a very low creature count and your friends play a lot of aggro. Four to six pieces of bounce is usually good. But again, if you have enough spot removal, sweepers, and defensive creatures a lot of times bounce isn't necessary.
Counters:
I personally like to play eight to ten counters if I am playing white / blue control and ten to twelve counters if I am playing mono blue control. You definitely want four Counterspell like you have but if you want counter for non-creature spells I would replace your Spell Pierce for four Negate than if you play ten counters I would have the last two be Mana Leak since you seem to want to be on a budget, but if your willing to spend I'd make the last two Cryptic Command.
Defensive Creatures:
As far as defensive creatures go in white / blue there are basically four studs, Wall of Denial, Plumeveil, Fog Bank, and Guard Gomazoa. Personally I think Wall of Denial is an automatic four of and clearly the best as its toughness is awesome, it has flying, and shroud so it is insanely hard for your opponent to get off of the board. As far as the other three I like Plumeveil over Fog Bank and Guard Gomazoa. Another creature some people really like, but I am not personally fond of is Wall of Frost, also some people really like Wall of Omens. Six to ten defensive creatures is usually good.
Draw:
If your playing with a lot of fetch lands than I'd say that four Brainstorm is an automatic choice, but from what you said on your budget it doesn't look like your going to be playing with a lot of fetch lands so its not as good here. From the three draw spells you have listed I would go with a split of Preordain and Ponder. I also really like and would recommend Ancestral Vision, Compulsive Research, and Jace's Ingenuity. Also some people like using Consecrated Sphinx from the new set for added drawing power. Also, if you have one copy of Jace, the Mind Sculptor than definitely play it. Six to eight draw spells is usually a good number to get your deck going.
Removal:
I'm really not a fan of Journey to Nowhere on the budget front I would personally much rather play Condemn on budget removal though Oblivion Ring is golden. I usually like six to eight pieces of spot removal in a control build.
Sweepers: Wrath of God, I personally think two is the magic number for most control builds.
Win Condition:
On a budget, hell honestly off of a budget as well, Sphinx of Jwar Isle is by far the best win condition for a white / blue control build. A rather old school, but still very good, option for a win condition is Guile, however, if your using him you probably want to be packing twelve if not up to potentially fifteen counterspells. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Wurmcoil Engine, Celestial Colonnade and sometimes even Exalted Angel are other options I've seen used. You usually want four copies of your win condition, although with enough draw you can safely play less, and some people play up to six win conditions.
Umm, okay some strange logic there. Could you explain why your thinking about Squadron Hawk? It's a weenie creature and control decks absolutely do not want weenie creatures. Also I could understand if you say you don't want Baneslayer Angel because its insanely expensive or if you said because it is way overplayed and to trendy of a card but to say because its a terrible card is nuts. Stoneforge Mystic is another really strange option for a control deck. Control decks very rarely use equipments, I don't think I've seen a control deck use maybe more than one Sword of Fire and Ice and one Umezawa's Jitte and even thats rare.
4 Hawk/Stoneforge is the new rage in Standard. Everyone's playing it in almost every deck, from Boros to Quest to yes, UW Control. UW Control with the Hawk/Stoneforge package is performing the strongest right now due to its inevitability and card advantage.
With a greater card pool and actual card draw, I don't see it as needed. But that's why he is considering it.
Needs actual card draw, and more of it. Running 1 Vision is useless, and Impulse is better than Ponder/Preordain. I'd go with Fact or Fiction with Impulse.
More removal > walls. Walls aren't really needed at all when white has so many removal options.
Telekeinesis: LOL, Standard is so insanely pathetic if people are actually using Squadron Hawk and Stoneforge Mystic in UW control decks, honestly it sounded like one of the dumbest ideas I've ever seen in any thread on here I've ever seen.
Telekeinesis: LOL, Standard is so insanely pathetic if people are actually using Squadron Hawk and Stoneforge Mystic in UW control decks, honestly it sounded like one of the dumbest ideas I've ever seen in any thread on here I've ever seen.
U/W is one of the dominant control builds in Standard right now due to the inherent synergy between Squadron Hawk and Jace. When you throw a sword onto the hawk your tempo swings are huge.
And to be honest if you're not going to post helpful suggestions then you can stay out of my thread.
2x Stoneforge Mystic
Planeswalkers:
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Enchantments:
4x Oblivion Ring
3x Journey to Nowhere
4x See Beyond (or Preordain/Ponder)
Instants:
4x Counterspell
3x Brainstorm
4x Spell Pierce
3x Sejiri Refuge
I guess I need some creatures, probably a Wrath of God or three. I was maybe thinking about Squadron Hawk, but this is for the casual table and I only have one JTMS. I also don't have any of the Swords, and don't really think I'm going to drop 15-20$ on one. If I do get Squadron Hawks then I would pick up some Loxodon Warhammer and what not for the Stoneforge package.
Any suggestions on where to go with this shell of a deck?
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
Onto the deck. White / Blue control decks want basically seven things:
1. Bounce
2. Counters
3. Defensive Creatures
4. Draw
5. Removal
6. Sweepers
7. Win Condition
Now you don't necessarily need all seven, although I generally personally prefer to. For example, if you have enough removal than bounce isn't necessary and if you have enough removal + mass removal you may not need defensive creatures.
Onto each:
Bounce:
Your best bets for bounce are Boomerang, Into the Roil, and Echoing Truth. And for mass bounce there is Wash Out, which is amazing against mono colored decks, and Evacuation, which is really good if your playing a very low creature count and your friends play a lot of aggro. Four to six pieces of bounce is usually good. But again, if you have enough spot removal, sweepers, and defensive creatures a lot of times bounce isn't necessary.
Counters:
I personally like to play eight to ten counters if I am playing white / blue control and ten to twelve counters if I am playing mono blue control. You definitely want four Counterspell like you have but if you want counter for non-creature spells I would replace your Spell Pierce for four Negate than if you play ten counters I would have the last two be Mana Leak since you seem to want to be on a budget, but if your willing to spend I'd make the last two Cryptic Command.
Defensive Creatures:
As far as defensive creatures go in white / blue there are basically four studs, Wall of Denial, Plumeveil, Fog Bank, and Guard Gomazoa. Personally I think Wall of Denial is an automatic four of and clearly the best as its toughness is awesome, it has flying, and shroud so it is insanely hard for your opponent to get off of the board. As far as the other three I like Plumeveil over Fog Bank and Guard Gomazoa. Another creature some people really like, but I am not personally fond of is Wall of Frost, also some people really like Wall of Omens. Six to ten defensive creatures is usually good.
Draw:
If your playing with a lot of fetch lands than I'd say that four Brainstorm is an automatic choice, but from what you said on your budget it doesn't look like your going to be playing with a lot of fetch lands so its not as good here. From the three draw spells you have listed I would go with a split of Preordain and Ponder. I also really like and would recommend Ancestral Vision, Compulsive Research, and Jace's Ingenuity. Also some people like using Consecrated Sphinx from the new set for added drawing power. Also, if you have one copy of Jace, the Mind Sculptor than definitely play it. Six to eight draw spells is usually a good number to get your deck going.
Removal:
I'm really not a fan of Journey to Nowhere on the budget front I would personally much rather play Condemn on budget removal though Oblivion Ring is golden. I usually like six to eight pieces of spot removal in a control build.
Sweepers:
Wrath of God, I personally think two is the magic number for most control builds.
Win Condition:
On a budget, hell honestly off of a budget as well, Sphinx of Jwar Isle is by far the best win condition for a white / blue control build. A rather old school, but still very good, option for a win condition is Guile, however, if your using him you probably want to be packing twelve if not up to potentially fifteen counterspells. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Wurmcoil Engine, Celestial Colonnade and sometimes even Exalted Angel are other options I've seen used. You usually want four copies of your win condition, although with enough draw you can safely play less, and some people play up to six win conditions.
Deck:
5 Island
5 Plains
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Mystic Gate
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Counterspells
3 Negate
3 Mana Leak
Defensive Creatures: 7
4 Wall of Denial
3 Plumeveil
Draw: 7
2 Preordain
2 Ponder
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Condemn
Sweepers: 2
2 Wrath of God
Win Condition: 4
4 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
On the lands, I think Glacial Fortress is a lot better than Sejiri Refuge and its pretty budget friendly so used it.
Also, yes I know Jace, the Mind Sculptor can do more than draw, but thats what I use him for the most so thats where I classified him.
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"STAY CLEAR OF WHITE POWDER"
311 "Who's Got the Herb"
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With a greater card pool and actual card draw, I don't see it as needed. But that's why he is considering it.
Needs actual card draw, and more of it. Running 1 Vision is useless, and Impulse is better than Ponder/Preordain. I'd go with Fact or Fiction with Impulse.
More removal > walls. Walls aren't really needed at all when white has so many removal options.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
5 Island
5 Plains
2 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Flooded Strand
4 Hallowed Fountain
1 Tundra
3 Nimbus Maze
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Counterspell
2 Absorb
4 Mana Leak
Defenses (4):
4 Wall of Denial
Draw (5):
3 Preordain
2 Ponder
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sweepers (2):
2 Wrath of God
Win Conditions (4):
4 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Useful Stuff (3):
2 Angel's Grace
1 Umezawa's Jitte
"Do not regret growing older. It is a privilege denied to many."
If you want to buy yourself a turn or two, Orim's Chant >>>>>>>>>>> Angel's Grace.
Other than that, I'd just suggest the same thing I did in my last post, namely removal < walls, and needs more actual card draw (ie. Fact or Fiction).
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
What would you suggest I take out for more removal? I feel like some walls are needed.
"Do not regret growing older. It is a privilege denied to many."
spam.
blut
--------------------------------------
"STAY CLEAR OF WHITE POWDER"
311 "Who's Got the Herb"
--------------------------------------
U/W is one of the dominant control builds in Standard right now due to the inherent synergy between Squadron Hawk and Jace. When you throw a sword onto the hawk your tempo swings are huge.
And to be honest if you're not going to post helpful suggestions then you can stay out of my thread.
Onto my deck:
I have a few Battlegrace Angel that I'm going to use as my finisher. My Celestial Colonnade, Swords to Plowshares and Wall of Denial are all in different decks.
I do have Plumeveils that I'll probably use. I'll throw a decklist together after work today.
warning for backseat modding.
blut
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts