A deck variation just popped up again that I find interesting. Generally, a vampire build has been the creature-type matters that has been leaned towards (if tribal were considered at all) in these builds. However, the new Mindblade Render looks to strongly push warrior as the type to use. And, after considering, it may very well be the best. I was wondering if there is any merit in Rogues, though.
Now, the draw engine is much worse. Right there that probably kills the deck idea. Still, the Rogues-matter prowl guys are tempting. Again, this is likely a dead-end. Stuff I enjoy: Snuff Outs helps get Energy with Gonti's Machinations, vehicles allow you to make use of your crappy one drops later and sandbag one for after the board wipe, Dark Ritual openings with Night Market Lookout and Smuggler's Copter, Oona's Blackguard or Sygg, River Cutthroat + one drop seem solid, a slow table could really get chewed up by Stinkdrinker Bandit damage or Oona's Blackguard discard, Auntie's Snitch as a discard for the Looter Scooter] and vehicles kind of allow it to block if you really need to. All said and done, freeing up space for at least one Gonti (who is a powerful), some generic draw playable off of Dark Ritual (Phyrexian Arena, Dark Prophecy, Gravestorm with Bojuka Bog and Nezumi Graverobber), and likely a couple more one drops is a necessity. The prowl guys need to show up on time for it to even be worth considering a rogue build. The biggest issue is that the prowl guys don't help much with the issues these types of decks have: bouncing back from board wipes and closing games. A prowl rogue that drained everyone's life might make leaning towards rogues worth it, but, assuming they don't print a rogue Mindblade Render, warriors seem to have the lead in tribal flavored aggro.
I think the most glaring issue with your deck in its present state is that it appears to be geared more towards one v. one than multiplayer. Cards like Auntie's Snitch are fine whenever you're facing a single player, but look quite anemic when you're starting down three.
Consider playing Grey Merchant of Asphodel. It's not a rogue but the effect is too powerful in a deck that wants to curve out.of It's the only way we get away with playing weak creatures like Pulse Tracker
Another issue you'll fine is that after the first board clear, these types of decks lose steam incredibly fast. Your draw engines help, but I like using Living Death, which are cheap right now from Iconic Masters, to get back in the game. Grim Haruspex is also worth considering.
Dark Ritual is terrible in aggro decks. You can't afford the 2-for-1. Swap it for 4x Throne of the God-Pharaoh. That card is BONKERS in this archetype. At first I thought that you'd only want ~2 but then I played with it and realized that I couldn't justify any fewer than 4. It's probably the single best multiplayer aggro card ever printed and you desperately want to draw one every game. Multiples suck, sure, but the first is so good that you have to risk it and Copters can loot excess copies away.
Don't play any ETBT lands like Leechridden Swamp. You're only going to consistently hit your first 2 drops with 19 lands so you cannot afford the tempo hit.
Cut the Harvester. If you're going to add a 3 drop it needs to be on Sulfuric Vortex's power-level. Harvester is many orders of magnitude too weak.
Dark Ritual is terrible in aggro decks. You can't afford the 2-for-1. Swap it for 4x Throne of the God-Pharaoh. That card is BONKERS in this archetype. At first I thought that you'd only want ~2 but then I played with it and realized that I couldn't justify any fewer than 4. It's probably the single best multiplayer aggro card ever printed and you desperately want to draw one every game. Multiples suck, sure, but the first is so good that you have to risk it and Copters can loot excess copies away.
I hate to give up the rit. because it can make for explosive openings, but I do see your point. I wondered how good the Throne was.
Don't play any ETBT lands like Leechridden Swamp. You're only going to consistently hit your first 2 drops with 19 lands so you cannot afford the tempo hit.
Tempo is huge. That is why I considered the rit. The question is whether 19 is too low, esp. With no .5 hosts from the rit.
Cut the Harvester. If you're going to add a 3 drop it needs to be on Sulfuric Vortex's power-level. Harvester is many orders of magnitude too weak.
I know you have tested Forsaken Wastes. Is that good enough?
Regardless, this build doesn't seem of comparable power to others. I think it is a dead end, as much as I like the Prowl guys for sheer vicious beatdown.
I think the most glaring issue with your deck in its present state is that it appears to be geared more towards one v. one than multiplayer. Cards like Auntie's Snitch are fine whenever you're facing a single player, but look quite anemic when you're starting down three.
Consider playing Grey Merchant of Asphodel. It's not a rogue but the effect is too powerful in a deck that wants to curve out.of It's the only way we get away with playing weak creatures like Pulse Tracker
Another issue you'll fine is that after the first board clear, these types of decks lose steam incredibly fast. Your draw engines help, but I like using Living Death, which are cheap right now from Iconic Masters, to get back in the game. Grim Haruspex is also worth considering.
I'll add card tags later. Hope this helps.
Well, like all of these really low to the ground aggro decks it looks to chew people up and steal wins here and there. It isn't geared to 1 v. 1, the one drops, throne, machinations, cuthroat all look to help against everybody else. If I continued tooling on the deck and kept the rituals, over Prid3's protests, I would have a deck that can very quicky headhunt people. If anyone still plays star or emperor this deck might work in such an environment.
The cutthroat and, apparently, the throne, are what makes this deck have a chance. Though I really like the machinations, too.
The Snitch is to power looter and to give a little tiny bit of recursion.
The only three mana card is Harvester and Prid3 suggests it is too week. The deck would have to be overhauled to support Grey Merchant and Living Death. Those work for your more long game deck. Grim Haruspex would suggest that I would be better off with Necropotenceesque cards or the warrior route. It's a shame, really, as the archetype just happens to be rogue heavy. Too bad the Siphoner is so shabby.
Cutting Harvester opens a slot for another land. 20-21 is fine. The big upside of MP is that you get a free mull and you always draw on your first turn. This makes cutting lands much more reasonable than in other formats. Flooding is really bad and screw isn't that likely.
Forsaken Wastes is trash. I did play it extensively back in the day but it's no Vortex. The problem is that people can just ignore it. After all, it's no better than a 3 CMC Pulse Tracker unless there's copious lifegain going around. And, if there is, then cards like Tainted Remedy are vastly superior.
Let me be clear; Dark Ritual is amazing if you draw exactly 1 on exactly turn 1. Every future copy is a mulligan. That's why it's bad in these types of decks. The highs are highs, but the (all too commons) lows are what kill the card in aggro decks.
How big are your games? Namely, what does Curtains' Call cost for you on average?
How big are your games? Namely, what does Curtains' Call cost for you on average?
4 to 5 players, generally.
If heavy life-gain were regular I don't know that I would even good around with this.
Re: ritual: the deck is already a greedy gimmick deck. I agree that you don't want to draw it, but two in your opener isn't the worst and the deck is already "greedy" in the sense that it is trying to steal wins. Low lows seem to be the name of the game and the deck with or without rituals seems opening hand dependent. It isnt negligible that those multiplayer mulls you talked about increase a ritual hand and that looted scooter can discard it. Again, not saying your wrong. It is just a deck that really needs some luck to begin with. I do understand that ritual exacerbates that variance - but, man, those highs!
Prid3, Siphoner question. Obviously it is way below mediocre for a Bob, which isn't great in multiplayer already... However, with the synergies (machinations and the prowl pumpers), and the lackluster evasion, is it playable?
Also, going deep here, but would Cover of Darkness help make it worth being constrained to tribal? Unlike the other cards it doesn't do damage however. Too bad it isn't a cantrip.
If you like the card and want to play it then go for it. Life's too short to worry about these types of things. All I'm saying is that I don't play DR in these aggro decks because I found the card to be extremely lackluster and/or game losing when I tested it. You say that 2 in the opener is good, but in my experience you open with 2-3 lands, 1-2 DRs and then one of your opening threats is killed by removal and you straight lose. It's "anti" luck in that sense because you don't win with a 2-3 threat hand in MP. You want 2 lands and 5 spells that kill people. Again, this is all my experience, but I'm Mr Monoblack so I've played these kinds of decks ad nauseam.
Still, the card can be broken. Sometimes you turn 1 DR to put 2-3 threats in play and then you jam a Throne on turn 2. Like if you go turn 1 Dark Ritual -> 3x "Pulse Trackers" (any flavour), turn 2 Throne of the God-Pharaoh you just win and it feels GREAT. I still don't play with it, but the highs are insanely high.
Prid3, Siphoner question. Obviously it is way below mediocre for a Bob, which isn't great in multiplayer already... However, with the synergies (machinations and the prowl pumpers), and the lackluster evasion, is it playable?
I've never played with or against that card outside of Standard. This is largely because I think that it's unplayable, but I don't have any formal testing under my belt. My gut tells me that it's bad, but I haven't played with it either way.
Also, going deep here, but would Cover of Darkness help make it worth being constrained to tribal? Unlike the other cards it doesn't do damage however. Too bad it isn't a cantrip.
You could try 1-2 and see how they fare. I prefer removal to evasion (Tyrant's Choice baby!) but it couldn't hurt to see how it does in a tribal list. On the surface I don't like the card because, as you said, it doesn't deal damage. This, to me, competes for the same slot as Throne and Throne is vastly superior. Or Ankh of Mishra. Or Winter Orb. Etc. There's too many "good cards" that it doesn't hold a candle to.
Also, let me put this another way. Pulse Tracker doesn't need to be able to attack everyone, it just needs to be able to attack someone. Whereas evasion just helps you hit one player better, removal not only clears blockers but it also removes the utility that it offers and/or helps with racing. After all, players can easily decide to start smacking you as opposed to each other. This is why I tend to prefer cards like Tyrant's Choice over things like Cover of Darkness.
Also, FWIW, the card that takes all of these dorky little aggro decks to the next level is Tymna the Weaver. It's the Black version of Edric, Spymaster of Trest in the sense that she's a ridonkulous draw engine that lets you rip into a new hand every other turn. The problem is obviously cost. Not only is Tymna expensive, but she also forces you to play things like Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire, Godless Shrine, Concealed Courtyard, etc. to support her. After all, ETBT lands are a deal-breaker and everything has to tap for Black as well. That's why I don't usually suggest her, but it's worth pointing out the fact that we do have access to a broken 3 CMC draw engine.
Also, FWIW, the card that takes all of these dorky little aggro decks to the next level is Tymna the Weaver. It's the Black version of Edric, Spymaster of Trest in the sense that she's a ridonkulous draw engine that lets you rip into a new hand every other turn. The problem is obviously cost. Not only is Tymna expensive, but she also forces you to play things like Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire, Godless Shrine, Concealed Courtyard, etc. to support her. After all, ETBT lands are a deal-breaker and everything has to tap for Black as well. That's why I don't usually suggest her, but it's worth pointing out the fact that we do have access to a broken 3 CMC draw engine.
Interesting. Yeah, mana base and the card is $10 a copy (and only foil :mad:) does make it something I don't want now, but I will put it on the list! Crazy good.
a copy (and only foil :mad:) does make it something I don't want now, but I will put it on the list! Crazy good.
Yep, both her and Kambal, Consul of Allocation fill that "Sulfuric Vortex levels of busted" requirement to justify running 3 drops in this archetype. Wish monoblack had more options :(.
4 Night Market Lookout
4 Pulse Tracker
3 Gonti's Machinations
2 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
2 Auntie's Snitch
4 Oona's Blackguard
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Stinkdrinker Bandit
4 Smuggler's Copter
1 Aethersphere Harvester
4 Snuff Out
19 Swamp
The land count is way too greedy and other considerations include Bitterblossom (singleton to run vehicles after inevitable board wipe and would activate Gonti's Machinations), Throne of the God-Pharoah (seems good with vehicles),Gonti, Lord of Luxury, Guul Draz Vampire (Unfortunately, the deck probably needs more one drops and he is the best I could find. He would activate quickly and runs a vehicle fine), Nezumi Graverobber, and Earwig Squad. Also, the Winter Orb and Springleaf Drum "combo" and Leechridden Swamp.
Now, the draw engine is much worse. Right there that probably kills the deck idea. Still, the Rogues-matter prowl guys are tempting. Again, this is likely a dead-end. Stuff I enjoy: Snuff Outs helps get Energy with Gonti's Machinations, vehicles allow you to make use of your crappy one drops later and sandbag one for after the board wipe, Dark Ritual openings with Night Market Lookout and Smuggler's Copter, Oona's Blackguard or Sygg, River Cutthroat + one drop seem solid, a slow table could really get chewed up by Stinkdrinker Bandit damage or Oona's Blackguard discard, Auntie's Snitch as a discard for the Looter Scooter] and vehicles kind of allow it to block if you really need to. All said and done, freeing up space for at least one Gonti (who is a powerful), some generic draw playable off of Dark Ritual (Phyrexian Arena, Dark Prophecy, Gravestorm with Bojuka Bog and Nezumi Graverobber), and likely a couple more one drops is a necessity. The prowl guys need to show up on time for it to even be worth considering a rogue build. The biggest issue is that the prowl guys don't help much with the issues these types of decks have: bouncing back from board wipes and closing games. A prowl rogue that drained everyone's life might make leaning towards rogues worth it, but, assuming they don't print a rogue Mindblade Render, warriors seem to have the lead in tribal flavored aggro.
I think the most glaring issue with your deck in its present state is that it appears to be geared more towards one v. one than multiplayer. Cards like Auntie's Snitch are fine whenever you're facing a single player, but look quite anemic when you're starting down three.
Consider playing Grey Merchant of Asphodel. It's not a rogue but the effect is too powerful in a deck that wants to curve out.of It's the only way we get away with playing weak creatures like Pulse Tracker
Another issue you'll fine is that after the first board clear, these types of decks lose steam incredibly fast. Your draw engines help, but I like using Living Death, which are cheap right now from Iconic Masters, to get back in the game. Grim Haruspex is also worth considering.
I'll add card tags later. Hope this helps.
Don't play any ETBT lands like Leechridden Swamp. You're only going to consistently hit your first 2 drops with 19 lands so you cannot afford the tempo hit.
Cut the Harvester. If you're going to add a 3 drop it needs to be on Sulfuric Vortex's power-level. Harvester is many orders of magnitude too weak.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I hate to give up the rit. because it can make for explosive openings, but I do see your point. I wondered how good the Throne was.
Tempo is huge. That is why I considered the rit. The question is whether 19 is too low, esp. With no .5 hosts from the rit.
I know you have tested Forsaken Wastes. Is that good enough?
Regardless, this build doesn't seem of comparable power to others. I think it is a dead end, as much as I like the Prowl guys for sheer vicious beatdown.
Well, like all of these really low to the ground aggro decks it looks to chew people up and steal wins here and there. It isn't geared to 1 v. 1, the one drops, throne, machinations, cuthroat all look to help against everybody else. If I continued tooling on the deck and kept the rituals, over Prid3's protests, I would have a deck that can very quicky headhunt people. If anyone still plays star or emperor this deck might work in such an environment.
The cutthroat and, apparently, the throne, are what makes this deck have a chance. Though I really like the machinations, too.
The Snitch is to power looter and to give a little tiny bit of recursion.
The only three mana card is Harvester and Prid3 suggests it is too week. The deck would have to be overhauled to support Grey Merchant and Living Death. Those work for your more long game deck. Grim Haruspex would suggest that I would be better off with Necropotenceesque cards or the warrior route. It's a shame, really, as the archetype just happens to be rogue heavy. Too bad the Siphoner is so shabby.
I appreciate both of your responses!
Forsaken Wastes is trash. I did play it extensively back in the day but it's no Vortex. The problem is that people can just ignore it. After all, it's no better than a 3 CMC Pulse Tracker unless there's copious lifegain going around. And, if there is, then cards like Tainted Remedy are vastly superior.
Let me be clear; Dark Ritual is amazing if you draw exactly 1 on exactly turn 1. Every future copy is a mulligan. That's why it's bad in these types of decks. The highs are highs, but the (all too commons) lows are what kill the card in aggro decks.
How big are your games? Namely, what does Curtains' Call cost for you on average?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
4 to 5 players, generally.
If heavy life-gain were regular I don't know that I would even good around with this.
Re: ritual: the deck is already a greedy gimmick deck. I agree that you don't want to draw it, but two in your opener isn't the worst and the deck is already "greedy" in the sense that it is trying to steal wins. Low lows seem to be the name of the game and the deck with or without rituals seems opening hand dependent. It isnt negligible that those multiplayer mulls you talked about increase a ritual hand and that looted scooter can discard it. Again, not saying your wrong. It is just a deck that really needs some luck to begin with. I do understand that ritual exacerbates that variance - but, man, those highs!
Prid3, Siphoner question. Obviously it is way below mediocre for a Bob, which isn't great in multiplayer already... However, with the synergies (machinations and the prowl pumpers), and the lackluster evasion, is it playable?
Also, going deep here, but would Cover of Darkness help make it worth being constrained to tribal? Unlike the other cards it doesn't do damage however. Too bad it isn't a cantrip.
If you like the card and want to play it then go for it. Life's too short to worry about these types of things. All I'm saying is that I don't play DR in these aggro decks because I found the card to be extremely lackluster and/or game losing when I tested it. You say that 2 in the opener is good, but in my experience you open with 2-3 lands, 1-2 DRs and then one of your opening threats is killed by removal and you straight lose. It's "anti" luck in that sense because you don't win with a 2-3 threat hand in MP. You want 2 lands and 5 spells that kill people. Again, this is all my experience, but I'm Mr Monoblack so I've played these kinds of decks ad nauseam.
Still, the card can be broken. Sometimes you turn 1 DR to put 2-3 threats in play and then you jam a Throne on turn 2. Like if you go turn 1 Dark Ritual -> 3x "Pulse Trackers" (any flavour), turn 2 Throne of the God-Pharaoh you just win and it feels GREAT. I still don't play with it, but the highs are insanely high.
I've never played with or against that card outside of Standard. This is largely because I think that it's unplayable, but I don't have any formal testing under my belt. My gut tells me that it's bad, but I haven't played with it either way.
You could try 1-2 and see how they fare. I prefer removal to evasion (Tyrant's Choice baby!) but it couldn't hurt to see how it does in a tribal list. On the surface I don't like the card because, as you said, it doesn't deal damage. This, to me, competes for the same slot as Throne and Throne is vastly superior. Or Ankh of Mishra. Or Winter Orb. Etc. There's too many "good cards" that it doesn't hold a candle to.
Also, let me put this another way. Pulse Tracker doesn't need to be able to attack everyone, it just needs to be able to attack someone. Whereas evasion just helps you hit one player better, removal not only clears blockers but it also removes the utility that it offers and/or helps with racing. After all, players can easily decide to start smacking you as opposed to each other. This is why I tend to prefer cards like Tyrant's Choice over things like Cover of Darkness.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Interesting. Yeah, mana base and the card is $10 a copy (and only foil :mad:) does make it something I don't want now, but I will put it on the list! Crazy good.
Yep, both her and Kambal, Consul of Allocation fill that "Sulfuric Vortex levels of busted" requirement to justify running 3 drops in this archetype. Wish monoblack had more options :(.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold