I was reading Prid3’s Amonkhet review, and really like Nest of Scarabs to power Torment of Hailfire through Ashnod’s Altar. So I have a MBD shell of the following:
I have about 16-20 slots for creatures and other things to fit with Nest of Scarabs. What I’m struggling with is what else to use, knowing that I can’t always count on NoS/BSZ to generate a billion scarabs to then sacrifice for a game crushing spell. That’s the dream anyway, but it seems fragile even in a creature-heavy meta like mine. Obviously, Gary is a strong candidate for a MBD. Any suggestions?
Well, you should keep Nest of Scarabs in mind as a key card of the deck, so you need lots of stuff to put -1/-1 counters on creatures. Here are some cards, that I think could be useful: Skinrender Soul Snuffers Canker Abomination (either a cheap fatty or lots of -1/-1 counters to get tokens) Noxious Hatchling/Voracious Hatchling (can become big, and instantly generates 4 -1/-1 counters for scarabs) Midnight Banshee (lots of devotion and a serious threat all around) Carnifex Demon (dito) Grief Tyrant (instantly four -1/-1 counters ,and another 4 when it dies, preferably by sacrifice on the Altar)
Creatures with persist in general could be very useful for two sacrifices on the Altar plus a -1/-1 counter placed. Cauldron Haze could come in handy for that, too, and erases the need for persist creatures for this. Though lots of -1/-1 counters on your creatures will make this ineffective as persist only triggers if there is no such counter on the creature.
The thing about Nest of Scarabs + Black Sun's Zenith is that it doesn't really need help. People either have a Wrath or they lose. Even if they have a Wrath, no big deal, you're not even behind on resources and you still have your Nest around.
Does that work? They enter with the counters. If so, sweet.
Yes, due to this rule:
121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object that’s given counters as it enters the battlefield.
edit:
Similar to what I already mentioned, Grim Poppet also is removal and lots of -1/-1 counters. Two of those could go "infinte" with the counter placement by giving each other counters back and forth.
I had the same concern, to be honest. I totally concede what I’m about to say won’t hold up in a competitive metagame. As I’ve been thinking the interactions through, here is what I see. I have three wincons.
1.Nest of Scarabs and BSZ, as you stated. That alone will win some games.
2.Ashnod’s Altar, critters and Torment of Hailfire. Wrath, Mindtwist, and possibly damage all in one.
Both of these can blow up my opponents by themselves.
3. Recurring Nightmare and Gary. Depending on recursive creatures, can close out efficiently also.
The thing that excites me is that I can mix elements from all three wincons in some synergistic ways, enough that I may not need to have the four card combo you referred to. RN + Skinrender + NoS = reasonably strong targeted control and creature generation. Gary + ToH works well to force people to ditch more cards and sacrifice table position. ToH and BSZ wreck hands and life totals with critters stamped out. Those are just three examples and all three are stronger with resilient creatures and A’s A.
I’m going to play this first and see what works well in my meta and rotate out what doesn’t. The feedback from everyone gives me a lot to fall back on when the changes eventually happen and is appreciated. In the meantime, $40 gets me the rest of the cards I need, which is easily in my budget for a new decklist.
After extensive playtesting this weekend, I’m finding some things just didn’t mesh that well. BUT, and this is the exciting part, the following list does flow well and the added discard elements will further attack my opponents’ resources while renewing mine. Between Gary, the discard, and BSZ/Skinrender, there will be plenty-softened board states to make ToH more effective, and Gary or Nest of Scarabs remain in as primary finishers. Woot.
Played this last night, I didn’t win. But, didn’t see any discard, no Gary, didn’t get a major BSZ/NoS to land since an enemy took out NoS after Skinrender generated the first few scarabs. Even so, after BSZ cleared the board twice, a mere single Torment of Hailfire tore the enemy up as intended. Both players absorbed sacrifice and a bunch of damage. A second might have sealed the game. This sucker’s gonna win games in my group. I love it.
Played this for a second time. Unlike its debut, it won this time. I generated 24 scarabs off a BSZ, which another -1/-1 counter deck cast Soul Snuffers to kill them...bummer. But between BSZ, a Flamebreak from someone else, and the snuffers, board state was set up perfectly for the three Torment of Hailfires sitting in my hand. The first one dropped for x=8 due to a Mana Flare in play and it smashed hands and board positions and allowed a Bloodghast to kill one player, and then the second ToH dropped next turn for x=4 for the win. Fun ffa deck for my group’s level of play, but still haven’t seen Gary come out.
Sounds like Torment of Hailfire is your best card and is getting the most wins/best plays. One idea would be to get more defensive cards instead of Bloodghasts to ensure that you actually get to high mana. Anything from running some decent blockers or running Innocent Bloods and other AoE killing spells could work.
Well, to be fair to the other cards, ToH is doing so well because I’m holding it to later after my other control cards soften the board state. Once it drops, though, there doesn’t seem to be much resistance left with hands and boards smashed. If I can ever get Gray merchant and Liliana’s Specter to show up in my hand, that will suitably lessen how much I have to depend on ToH. Still, high marks for that card. It plays great in this shell.
So a bit of an update. Shuffled some cards around to re-make my Vintage discard/land destruct Dark Depths dueling deck. So I combined my two Gray Merchant decks, and managed to fit my two biggest synergies while still fitting Torment of Hailfire, Liliana’s Specter and support cards. Woot.
One real card draw card sems low to me...
Als the other parts seem good.
Hi Thijs1301, you raise a good point that I don’t have a snappy answer for, as one of the two source decks had Syphon Mind in the list along with Necropotence. It took some time to finally remove the Syphons to fit other things. This is basically a test to see if impact from synergies can overcome draw’s power, and it may not (even in my lower-powered meta). This is the part where Prid3 might chide me for being too greedy.
If you don’t mind, what would you remove personally to fit draw in (assume four slots) if this were your decklist?
4 Nest of Scarabs
4 Jet Medallion (or Charcoal Diamond)
4 Black Sun’s Zenith
2 Ashnod’s Altar
4 Torment of Hailfire
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Diabolic Tutor
23 Swamps (23ish)
1 Cabal Coffers (I only own 1)
I have about 16-20 slots for creatures and other things to fit with Nest of Scarabs. What I’m struggling with is what else to use, knowing that I can’t always count on NoS/BSZ to generate a billion scarabs to then sacrifice for a game crushing spell. That’s the dream anyway, but it seems fragile even in a creature-heavy meta like mine. Obviously, Gary is a strong candidate for a MBD. Any suggestions?
+4 Nether Shadow
+4 Bloodghast
+4 Skinrender
+4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
+1 Ashnod’s Altar
+1 Diabolic Tutor
+2 Buried Alive
Skinrender
Soul Snuffers
Canker Abomination (either a cheap fatty or lots of -1/-1 counters to get tokens)
Noxious Hatchling/Voracious Hatchling (can become big, and instantly generates 4 -1/-1 counters for scarabs)
Midnight Banshee (lots of devotion and a serious threat all around)
Carnifex Demon (dito)
Grief Tyrant (instantly four -1/-1 counters ,and another 4 when it dies, preferably by sacrifice on the Altar)
Creatures with persist in general could be very useful for two sacrifices on the Altar plus a -1/-1 counter placed. Cauldron Haze could come in handy for that, too, and erases the need for persist creatures for this. Though lots of -1/-1 counters on your creatures will make this ineffective as persist only triggers if there is no such counter on the creature.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
The thing about Nest of Scarabs + Black Sun's Zenith is that it doesn't really need help. People either have a Wrath or they lose. Even if they have a Wrath, no big deal, you're not even behind on resources and you still have your Nest around.
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Does that work? They enter with the counters. If so, sweet.
Yes, due to this rule:
121.6. Some spells and abilities refer to counters being put on an object. This refers to putting counters on that object while it’s on the battlefield and also to an object that’s given counters as it enters the battlefield.
edit:
Similar to what I already mentioned, Grim Poppet also is removal and lots of -1/-1 counters. Two of those could go "infinte" with the counter placement by giving each other counters back and forth.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
1.Nest of Scarabs and BSZ, as you stated. That alone will win some games.
2.Ashnod’s Altar, critters and Torment of Hailfire. Wrath, Mindtwist, and possibly damage all in one.
Both of these can blow up my opponents by themselves.
3. Recurring Nightmare and Gary. Depending on recursive creatures, can close out efficiently also.
The thing that excites me is that I can mix elements from all three wincons in some synergistic ways, enough that I may not need to have the four card combo you referred to. RN + Skinrender + NoS = reasonably strong targeted control and creature generation. Gary + ToH works well to force people to ditch more cards and sacrifice table position. ToH and BSZ wreck hands and life totals with critters stamped out. Those are just three examples and all three are stronger with resilient creatures and A’s A.
I’m going to play this first and see what works well in my meta and rotate out what doesn’t. The feedback from everyone gives me a lot to fall back on when the changes eventually happen and is appreciated. In the meantime, $40 gets me the rest of the cards I need, which is easily in my budget for a new decklist.
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bloodghast
4 Liliana’s Specter
4 Skinrender
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Nest of Scarabs
4 Charcoal Diamond
4 Black Sun’s Zenith
4 Torment of Hailfire
3 Syphon Mind
2 Recurring Nightmare
24 Swamps
Devotion Kills synergy 1: Gray Merchant, Demigod of Revenge, Bloodghast, Buried Alive.
Token synergy 2: Nest of Scarabs, BSZ, Skinrender.
Both synergies blend well along with ToH and the support cards. It’s not insta-win, but it’s going to win games in my group, for sure.
4 Bloodghast
4 Liliana’s Specter
4 Skinrender
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Demigod of Revenge
4 Dark Ritual
4 Nest of Scarabs
4 Black Sun’s Zenith
4 Torment of Hailfire
2 Buried Alive
2 Recurring Nightmare
1 Necropotence
24 Swamp
Als the other parts seem good.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
If you don’t mind, what would you remove personally to fit draw in (assume four slots) if this were your decklist?
Drop two swamps for Nykthos or Coffers?
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.