I was wondering if many of you had done much playtesting with God-Pharaoh's Gift since it's been released. The card seems rife for casual play abuse and I've seen a few people mention it, but no one post a deck yet, unless I'm mistaken. I've been using it to some success in a U/B build and interested in using it in a U/R version. At seven mana, the card does a decent impression of Emeria, the Sky Ruin. While unable to continuously recur things and more vulnerable to removal, it does come with its own tutor-enabler in Gate to the Afterlife. Being colorless is also really neat since it can provide recursion to colors that don't normally have access to it. Please look at the deck lists below and let me know what you think.
The goal with both decks is to out value your opponents until you can start taking control of the board with flying, hasted 4/4's. There are some really neat interactions in both decks. Namely, cards like Mulldrifter, Grave Titan, and even Solemn Simulacrum.
The Blue Red deck is still incomplete, but I decided to post it anyway to stimulate conversation. Again, our goal is to out value are opponent, but this time with added power between Combustible Gearhulk and Inferno Titan. Cards like Faithless Looting also help quickly fill the graveyard for a quick Gate to the Afterlife activation.
Please tell me what you thin or whether you have done any testing of your own with the card. Personally, I'm looking to avoid using colors like White just because I already have an Emeria, the Sky Ruin deck, but whatever suits you.
Update:
I'm continuing to work on the Blue/Black version of the deck and, while somewhat expensive, it shows potential. I would like suggestions on how to shore up the aggro match-up, especially since I tend to be an early target in my meta.
Panharmonicon would be a fine addition for anyone interested in building he deck. I personally will not use it simply because I already have a Panharmonicon deck and want to avoid my decks becoming too similar. In the same vein, however, I decided to add a single Mimic Vat and an additional Trophy Mage as a backup plan. For these, I removed a Gate to the Afterlife and a Glint-Nest Crane.
Hostage Taker is performing really well, unfortunately I will probably have to wait until Ixalan rotates out of Standard to buy these affordably.
Cards I'm Considering: Fleshbag Marauder - I chose not to include these earlier because they haven't been performing as well for me as they used once did, but card advantage that helps activate Gate to the Afterlife while returning later as a bigger threat may be worth it. Abyssal Gatekeeper - Similarly to Fleshbag Marauder, this guy really helps to deter early aggro While providing graveyard fodder for Gate or Gift. Shriekmaw - Evasion? Check. Easy to use in the early game? Check. Helps activate Gate? Check. The only thing that I dislike about this card is the prevalence of black in my meta. Chart a Course - Okay, maybe I'm digging too deep into Standard, but it's a solid card and objectively better than Tormenting Voice in the red version. Evil Twin - Honestly any Clone variant is worth discussing.
The first deck lacks speed and focus. Where you have things like Thought Scour and Flesh Carver I'd want to to open every game with turn 2 Hedron Crab + Fetchland into Champion of Wits or something along those lines. I don't want to cast Solemn or Taker on turn 4, I want something like Mindwrack Demon or Argivian Restoration. Where you have dorky value 4 drops I'd have things like Animate Dead, Beacon of Unrest or Living Death that either bring speed, flexibility or raw power to my build. For example, I would never put Hapless Researcher in a "fair" deck but assuming that I had outs to Animate Dead a Grave Titan on turn 2 then I'd reconsider it. After all, it's not even that good at fueling Gate and it's nigh worthless to resurrect. Hedron Crab on the other hand can easily bin 9 cards in 2-3 turns. The Crab is utterly bonkers in this type of shell because the sheer volume of cards that it can mill is absurd and even its fail-case is still reasonable (it mills 3 cards + itself).
The Blue Red deck is still incomplete, but I decided to post it anyway to stimulate conversation. Again, our goal is to out value are opponent, but this time with added power between Combustible Gearhulk and Inferno Titan. Cards like Faithless Looting also help quickly fill the graveyard for a quick Gate to the Afterlife activation.
In regards to the Blue/Black our suggestions seem reasonable, but I've personally never had much luck with self-mill strategies. It seems like I always mill what I need. I realize a portion of that comes down to luck, but what advice can you offer to me about playing those types of decks.
In regards to the Blue/Black our suggestions seem reasonable, but I've personally never had much luck with self-mill strategies. It seems like I always mill what I need. I realize a portion of that comes down to luck, but what advice can you offer to me about playing those types of decks.
What you're saying doesn't make mathematical sense. You aren't more likely to mill Argivian Restoration than any other card in your deck. Some people mentally trick themselves into thinking "I'm so unlucky, I always mill over my Xs and opposed to my Ys" but those thoughts rarely have any basis in the real world. Argivian Restoration, as with every other 4-of in your deck, gets drawn and milled roughly 6.667% of time. Given that cards such as Temple of Deceit, Baleful Strix, Mulldrifter, Champion of Wits and more allow you to filter through extra cards every game it becomes exceeding likely to draw at least one at some point. For example, assuming a 7-card hand of turn 1 Temple, turn 2 Strix, turn 3 Champion/Drifter you get to see 15 cards by turn 4. Assuming 4x Argivian Restoration that gives you a 70% probability of drawing one or more by turn 4. And no, before anyone asks, "Hedron Crabs" don't change that math. You will (on average) mill non-Argivian Restoration cards at the expected rate of 93.334% and mill Argivian Restorations at the expected rate of 6.667%. For every scenario where you're less likely to draw one because one or more has already been milled there's going to be a throng of others where you're more likely to draw one because your deck has been "thinned" of unwanted draws. I get that it's easy to think/say "Look Pride you big dummy! I just milled one! Now I only have 3!" That feeling is normal, but it's also something that can only be said in pure hindsight. Again, no card is any more or less likely to be milled than any other. As such it's easy to overlook the 93.334% of milled cards that aren't Argivian Restoration and focus on the 6.667% of use cases where you do hit one. Still, when you objectively analyze the situation without using hindsight (that is to say using information that you had available to you at the time of making your decision) there's no compelling reason/argument/logic to indicate that you were more likely to mill an Argivian Restoration over GPG or any other card. Rather, the only claim that you could objectively make at the time is "my Hedron Crab is extremely likely to mill over cards that I actively want to bin and unlikely to mill the small % of cards that I'd like to draw." Knowing that you should be extremely happy to have it your deck and to mill as much as you possibly can with it. That isn't to say that it's impossible to mill over 3-4 Restorations (it can and will happen) but it's also not very likely. As such whenever I hear someone argue something to the tune of "I'm not lucky enough to make self-mill decks work" the only thing that that says to me is that the person either hasn't played many game with the deck or is overly-emphasizing negative outcomes even when they're being produced at the expected rate.
Note: as someone who's been playing Poker (Holdem, PLO, Omaha and Stud mostly), Pokemon, MTG, HS, Shadowverse and more for the past ~17 years I'm completely desensitized and mentally numb to bad-beat stories and rebuttals to statistical arguments. People like to believe that they're special flower who get the "bad luck" so that others can have the "good luck" but when you sit down and legitimately crunch the numbers (I'm talking Excel spreadsheets, not anecdotes) we generally find ourselves in the ballpark range of where we should be. Put it another way, there's a reason why you generally see the same faces at the top tables of any card game and "luck" has nothing to do with it. While this may seem like a rant directly solely at Ifloopthepig, it's not, because as someone who's been working/playing/gaming around card game players for the majority of my adult life I have to say that it blows my mind how often you hear these kinds of statements and arguments being made. I'm not suggesting that it doesn't feel bad to have your A-A cracked by 7-2 or to mill over 2x Argivian Restoration with your first Hedron Crab activation but I also know (and can objectively prove) that those scenarios don't (and won't) occur with any significant frequency. You just have to let them go and move on with your life as opposed to creating mental blockades for yourself. No one, and I do mean no one out there is too unlucky to play a self-mill/combo/synergy/whatever deck. You also shouldn't start playing A-A like a donkey just because yours get cracked every now and then (because guess what it happens thousands upon of thousands of times each day). Play smart and think smart, don't let superstition hold you back.
TL;DR "I mill what I need" never has and never will be real thing.
Thank you for your insight, and I realize how passionately you feel about certain issues so I don't think that your rant was directly solely at me. You defend your points with data and that's completely acceptable.
Perhaps I was unclear earlier when I described why I do not care for self-mill strategies. Yes, while it's true that it always seems like I mill what I need. You're right, statistically speaking, it's a moot point. What I should have said was "I don't really know how to play self-mill decks and so I don't have a lot of luck with them." This probably sounds nonsensical to you, but there are some types of decks that I don't know how to play and so I've never had much luck with them. Incidentally, I also can't play aggro decks. Granted, I've never used Hedron Crab which enables milling at no opportunity cost, but in the past when I've tried these types of decks, it always feels like when I'm spending mana self-milling my opponents are doing more efficient things and I get snowballed by people playing strong curves.
I'm not saying things like Solemn Simulacrum and Flesh Carver work for everyone and at the end of a game I'd rather topdeck a Living Death, but those cards seem to keep me alive in the midgame so that cards like Living Death can matter later. (Animate Dead is an exception to what I'm describing since it only costs two.)
So what I'm asking is "Do you have any suggestions on how to play these types of decks without being steamrolled by my opponents in the early and mid-game?"
Edit: I swapped out the Gate to the Afterlife with Argivian Restoration and the Glint-Nest Crane with Champion of Wits, and Thought Scour for Careful Study.. I've only played it against 1v1 decks, but I definitely am seeing GPG hit the board much more often. Thanks, Prid3.
The goal with both decks is to out value your opponents until you can start taking control of the board with flying, hasted 4/4's. There are some really neat interactions in both decks. Namely, cards like Mulldrifter, Grave Titan, and even Solemn Simulacrum.
The Blue Red deck is still incomplete, but I decided to post it anyway to stimulate conversation. Again, our goal is to out value are opponent, but this time with added power between Combustible Gearhulk and Inferno Titan. Cards like Faithless Looting also help quickly fill the graveyard for a quick Gate to the Afterlife activation.
4 Careful Study
3 Argivian Restoration
2 Beacon of Unrest
3 God-Pharaoh's Gift
Creatures (26)
4 Baleful Strix
3 Abyssal Gatekeeper
3 Champion of Wits
3 Mulldrifter
1 Disciple of Bolas
3 Hostage Taker
2 Shriekmaw
2 Grave Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sepulchral Primordial
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Sunken Hollow
5 Island
7 Swamp
2 God-Pharaoh's Gift
3 Faithless Looting
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Gate to the Afterlife
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Combustible Gearhulk
2 Inferno Titan
4 Mulldrifter
3 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Glint-Nest Crane
3 Myr Retriever
3 Hapless Researcher
Please tell me what you thin or whether you have done any testing of your own with the card. Personally, I'm looking to avoid using colors like White just because I already have an Emeria, the Sky Ruin deck, but whatever suits you.
Edit: Updated U/B decklist.
Looking at your idea Paradox Haze comes to mind.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Why does Paradox Haze come to mind? God-Pharaoh's Gift only activates at the beginning of combat.
RTFC, Thijs!
Panharmonicon?
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I'm continuing to work on the Blue/Black version of the deck and, while somewhat expensive, it shows potential. I would like suggestions on how to shore up the aggro match-up, especially since I tend to be an early target in my meta.
Panharmonicon would be a fine addition for anyone interested in building he deck. I personally will not use it simply because I already have a Panharmonicon deck and want to avoid my decks becoming too similar. In the same vein, however, I decided to add a single Mimic Vat and an additional Trophy Mage as a backup plan. For these, I removed a Gate to the Afterlife and a Glint-Nest Crane.
Hostage Taker is performing really well, unfortunately I will probably have to wait until Ixalan rotates out of Standard to buy these affordably.
Cards I'm Considering:
Fleshbag Marauder - I chose not to include these earlier because they haven't been performing as well for me as they used once did, but card advantage that helps activate Gate to the Afterlife while returning later as a bigger threat may be worth it.
Abyssal Gatekeeper - Similarly to Fleshbag Marauder, this guy really helps to deter early aggro While providing graveyard fodder for Gate or Gift.
Shriekmaw - Evasion? Check. Easy to use in the early game? Check. Helps activate Gate? Check. The only thing that I dislike about this card is the prevalence of black in my meta.
Chart a Course - Okay, maybe I'm digging too deep into Standard, but it's a solid card and objectively better than Tormenting Voice in the red version.
Evil Twin - Honestly any Clone variant is worth discussing.
I want to also begin brainstorming a Green/Blue version with Master Biomancer and Prime Speaker Zegana.
Thoughts?
Why bother with Gate at all? Why not play a Goblin Welder/Trash for Treasure/Dack Fayden/Daretti, Scrap Savant/Master Transmuter style deck that cheats GPG directly into play? Even if you don't draw a GCP, no matter, recur a Gearhulk or Sandstone Oracle instead.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
What you're saying doesn't make mathematical sense. You aren't more likely to mill Argivian Restoration than any other card in your deck. Some people mentally trick themselves into thinking "I'm so unlucky, I always mill over my Xs and opposed to my Ys" but those thoughts rarely have any basis in the real world. Argivian Restoration, as with every other 4-of in your deck, gets drawn and milled roughly 6.667% of time. Given that cards such as Temple of Deceit, Baleful Strix, Mulldrifter, Champion of Wits and more allow you to filter through extra cards every game it becomes exceeding likely to draw at least one at some point. For example, assuming a 7-card hand of turn 1 Temple, turn 2 Strix, turn 3 Champion/Drifter you get to see 15 cards by turn 4. Assuming 4x Argivian Restoration that gives you a 70% probability of drawing one or more by turn 4. And no, before anyone asks, "Hedron Crabs" don't change that math. You will (on average) mill non-Argivian Restoration cards at the expected rate of 93.334% and mill Argivian Restorations at the expected rate of 6.667%. For every scenario where you're less likely to draw one because one or more has already been milled there's going to be a throng of others where you're more likely to draw one because your deck has been "thinned" of unwanted draws. I get that it's easy to think/say "Look Pride you big dummy! I just milled one! Now I only have 3!" That feeling is normal, but it's also something that can only be said in pure hindsight. Again, no card is any more or less likely to be milled than any other. As such it's easy to overlook the 93.334% of milled cards that aren't Argivian Restoration and focus on the 6.667% of use cases where you do hit one. Still, when you objectively analyze the situation without using hindsight (that is to say using information that you had available to you at the time of making your decision) there's no compelling reason/argument/logic to indicate that you were more likely to mill an Argivian Restoration over GPG or any other card. Rather, the only claim that you could objectively make at the time is "my Hedron Crab is extremely likely to mill over cards that I actively want to bin and unlikely to mill the small % of cards that I'd like to draw." Knowing that you should be extremely happy to have it your deck and to mill as much as you possibly can with it. That isn't to say that it's impossible to mill over 3-4 Restorations (it can and will happen) but it's also not very likely. As such whenever I hear someone argue something to the tune of "I'm not lucky enough to make self-mill decks work" the only thing that that says to me is that the person either hasn't played many game with the deck or is overly-emphasizing negative outcomes even when they're being produced at the expected rate.
Note: as someone who's been playing Poker (Holdem, PLO, Omaha and Stud mostly), Pokemon, MTG, HS, Shadowverse and more for the past ~17 years I'm completely desensitized and mentally numb to bad-beat stories and rebuttals to statistical arguments. People like to believe that they're special flower who get the "bad luck" so that others can have the "good luck" but when you sit down and legitimately crunch the numbers (I'm talking Excel spreadsheets, not anecdotes) we generally find ourselves in the ballpark range of where we should be. Put it another way, there's a reason why you generally see the same faces at the top tables of any card game and "luck" has nothing to do with it. While this may seem like a rant directly solely at Ifloopthepig, it's not, because as someone who's been working/playing/gaming around card game players for the majority of my adult life I have to say that it blows my mind how often you hear these kinds of statements and arguments being made. I'm not suggesting that it doesn't feel bad to have your A-A cracked by 7-2 or to mill over 2x Argivian Restoration with your first Hedron Crab activation but I also know (and can objectively prove) that those scenarios don't (and won't) occur with any significant frequency. You just have to let them go and move on with your life as opposed to creating mental blockades for yourself. No one, and I do mean no one out there is too unlucky to play a self-mill/combo/synergy/whatever deck. You also shouldn't start playing A-A like a donkey just because yours get cracked every now and then (because guess what it happens thousands upon of thousands of times each day). Play smart and think smart, don't let superstition hold you back.
TL;DR "I mill what I need" never has and never will be real thing.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Perhaps I was unclear earlier when I described why I do not care for self-mill strategies. Yes, while it's true that it always seems like I mill what I need. You're right, statistically speaking, it's a moot point. What I should have said was "I don't really know how to play self-mill decks and so I don't have a lot of luck with them." This probably sounds nonsensical to you, but there are some types of decks that I don't know how to play and so I've never had much luck with them. Incidentally, I also can't play aggro decks. Granted, I've never used Hedron Crab which enables milling at no opportunity cost, but in the past when I've tried these types of decks, it always feels like when I'm spending mana self-milling my opponents are doing more efficient things and I get snowballed by people playing strong curves.
I'm not saying things like Solemn Simulacrum and Flesh Carver work for everyone and at the end of a game I'd rather topdeck a Living Death, but those cards seem to keep me alive in the midgame so that cards like Living Death can matter later. (Animate Dead is an exception to what I'm describing since it only costs two.)
So what I'm asking is "Do you have any suggestions on how to play these types of decks without being steamrolled by my opponents in the early and mid-game?"
Edit: I swapped out the Gate to the Afterlife with Argivian Restoration and the Glint-Nest Crane with Champion of Wits, and Thought Scour for Careful Study.. I've only played it against 1v1 decks, but I definitely am seeing GPG hit the board much more often. Thanks, Prid3.