I've recently moved to another city and found a group of players there who play Free For All (FFA) once a week (4 to 6 players).
There is only one House rules: All deck are rareless.
Since I've never played a FFA game before, I'm looking for advice to create a new deck to be effective on this multiplayer setting.
Usually the decks played on their FFA are: Tokens, Aggro (one full Artifact, one Elf, one Slivers, but only when there are only 4 players, no one plays aggro with more than 4), a really annoying control deck with Spy Kit and Echoing Truth (return all creatures to hand) and a deck based on Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
There are one or two decks that have OTK combos, but they aren't usually used.
I was expecting to create something with Blue (to scry / draw cards and counterspell), Green (some creatures and searching for lands on the library to accelerate the game), Black (destroy creature, animate dead) and Red (control burns divided between creatures).
Blue is a must. And so is Green. I'm not sure I want to keep Black this time around, though. I could drop it for Red or use 4 colors.
Yes, I know, Red. On a FFA. I already know the odds, but hear me out:
Since a lot of those decks are based on really weak creatures (1 resistance, 2 at best) with really annoying effects (gaining life, buying cards, summoning tokens, generating mana), I was expecting to use some spells like Arc Lightning (2 damage) or Forked Bolt (3 damage) for control. I already know that I'm not going to create a full burn deck on a FFA because, well, I have 80 to 120 hit points to burn, instead of regular 20, but on this scenario, it sounds interesting to me. Also, no one uses red cards on their FFA.
Since I have 20 lands on deck, plus 3 Cultivate and 3 Yavimaya Elders, that not only it accelerates my game, but allows me to choose which basic lands I need, I expect to have a lot of lands. And since my deck isn't really heavy on the mana curve, I'll probably end my turns with A LOT of untapped lands on the field.
I have low mana devotion on all colours, so the best part of those cards is that I can choose which land I require based on my hand and the cards on play. This gives me a lot of versatility to work with, even more so when paired with Mystical Speculation's Scry 3.
I can send cards to the bottom as much as I want. When I want I can shuffle the library on demand.
So, back to the point: I was considering to use cards with Buyback, like Mystical Speculation (scry) or Shattering Pulse (destroy artifacts).
I don't really know good Flashback cards, but maybe those are an option too. What I'm trying to say is that I need cards to spend all those lands I've accelerated. I've even considered using cheap cards with buyback paired with cards with Storm.
Now, the major problems I'm facing with this deck so far:
1) I can't rely on red burn damage for two reasons: As I said, I have 80 to 120 hit points to burn on a FFA, not 20 like a duel. Also, that pulls a lot of aggro on multiplayer. So I need new Green or Red creatures to make it work.
2) I'm lacking creatures and I don't have a clue about what i should use. It would be great to have creatures with synergy with the other cards on the deck (like Cinder Pyromancer, that untaps everytime I cast a red spell).
3) I'm really vulnerable to creatures. Maybe problem 2 will solve this. Maybe I should use walls? Also, I can't gain/recover HP.
4) I need cards to spend that huge amount of untapped lands I'll have. Cards with Buyback are interesting, so I can use them every round, instead of using it only once.
If you can give any advice of cards for that deck, I would be really thankful!
Thank you in advance for reading all of this!
Red can give you quite the tools for some board control in the form of lesser sweepers (which are usually uncommon), like Firespout (an uncommon in Shadowmoor) or Savage Twister. There are many others. Flame wave, Slice and Dice, and Pyrohemia are also uncommon and can take out bigger stuff, too. A lot of cards actually damage all players/opponents equally, so burning out everyone is not impossible, even without rares, especially if you build towards it (eg. Sulfurous Blast, Volcanic Fallout). For example, Pyrohemia and enrage creatures from Ixalan are a match made in heaven/hell, like combining it with Sun-crowned Hunters or Snapping Sailback. Green has plenty of cards to increase your life total to break that synergy even more. Ravenous Daggertooth with a toughness raising equipment would be a good call for that.
Walls are a good way to convince the other players to go for someone else without looking threatening. Lightning-Rig Crew has a big butt, and can gradually reduce all opponents to ash. You don't even need to play other pirates (though playing some makes the card better obviously). My favorite red wall is Aether Membrane.
Red can be a force to reckon with in multiplayer FFA. It's just that one shot burn spells are less effective the more players there are. But good spot removal is never a waste in any format.
Even with 6 land search cards, playing only 20 lands is not enough. You expect to have plenty of mana later in the game, but it won't be as much as you think with this few lands, and not that early either. With those numbers you still need at the very least 22, and I'd start building with 23. Those few more lands make it much more likely, that you can play a land searcher on turn 3, and it helps with color fixing, too. The key is to include ways to use excess mana. But being too greedy and cutting into your land base will hurt your deck far more than the few extra nonland cards will help it.
I'm not sure what your intended strategy is. You mentioned quite a number of cards and effects to aid your strategy, whatever it may turn out to be. But, what IS your goal? How to you plan on winning? How do you want to take out the other players? You have to answer that first, otherwise you'll just end up with a pile of cards without focus.
I'm not sure what your intended strategy is. You mentioned quite a number of cards and effects to aid your strategy, whatever it may turn out to be. But, what IS your goal? How to you plan on winning? How do you want to take out the other players? You have to answer that first, otherwise you'll just end up with a pile of cards without focus.
At first, my idea was to use Green creatures to deal damage, paired with Red's control (with lesser sweepers, as you said) and blue's scry/draw cards. My last deck used Pestilence to do damage to all creatures the same way you recommended Pyrohemia.
Now, you're giving me a lot of good ideas with the Enrage mechanic. I've played MtG when Tempest was released and only now I'm picking up the game again. I wasn't even aware of that mechanic yet. Now the damage my creatures will take won't be a problem, will be a desired mechanic and I really enjoy it.
I could use Enraged creatures and damage them all with spells like Pyrohemia or Lightning-Rig Crew to activate the Enrage effects. I could Arc Lightning two 1/1 creatures and even Enrage a Ravenous Daggertooth for extra health that turn, or Enrage Sun-Crowned Hunters to deal more 3 damage that turn for free. Or increase Snapping Sailback's power and resistance.
A lot of cards actually damage all players/opponents equally, so burning out everyone is not impossible, even without rares, especially if you build towards it (eg. Sulfurous Blast, Volcanic Fallout)
What worries me is the number of cards I'll use doing it. A lot of players have life drain mechanics (with cards like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Basilica Screecher or even lifelink). I'm afraid I'll reach a point where I simply can't outdamage someone's already high health pool If I don't have big, reliable creatures that can attack every turn.
Also, hitting all players pulls A LOT of aggro and I'm afraid I'll be focused from the very first rounds. As you said, maybe walls are the way to go, offering me protecting from those early control burn spells. Aether Membrane really is amazing !
Red can be a force to reckon with in multiplayer FFA. It's just that one shot burn spells are less effective the more players there are. But good spot removal is never a waste in any format.
I really don't see that happening in my games. As I said, even if I could damage all players at once, one Gray Merchant of Asphodel I can't counter gives someone 40 HP (hitting 5 players for 8 damage). I'm not sure I'll have enough cards on the deck to kill this guy, unless I use Fanning the Flames with buyback spending all my mana every round. Of course this only works against one target, to finish him off.
Even with 6 land search cards, playing only 20 lands is not enough. You expect to have plenty of mana later in the game, but it won't be as much as you think with this few lands, and not that early either. With those numbers you still need at the very least 22, and I'd start building with 23. Those few more lands make it much more likely, that you can play a land searcher on turn 3, and it helps with color fixing, too. The key is to include ways to use excess mana. But being too greedy and cutting into your land base will hurt your deck far more than the few extra nonland cards will help it.
Now I'm not following. If I start my deck with 23 lands, I'll only have 37 cards to divide between blue's counterspells, scry and draw cards, red's burn and green's creatures. Also, from the cards I've already read, my dedication to a color will be 1, maybe 2.
I'm not sure I'll have enough cards on the library to do so many things on one round (unless I use a lot of buyback cards, which is also a good strategy).
From what I've seen, I can't see Burn as a real threat on the game. Unless I can summon a lot of Cinder Pyromancers and use something like Seething Anger (4 mana cost), Searing Touch(5 mana cost) or Haze of Rage(4 mana cost) to untap them and use the effect many times each round. Enrage sounds like way more reliable.
Now that I think of it, If i had enraged creatures that I can damage with Pyrohemia, I could also use Haze of Rage multiple times each round to buff them up. Since it has Storm, first time I cast it it will give +1/+0, second time +2/+0 and last time +3/+0, increasing +6/+0 for all enraged creatures. This could be a really nice strategy (considering I have 12 untaped mana on the game).
If enrage is the way you want to go, with Sun-Crowned Hunters as a key piece, you can get a similar effect in other creatures, namely Spitemare and Coalhauler Swine, probably some others. Since those creatures are themselves dealing damage, all you have to do to stay ahead in the damage race is give them lifelink or similar. Loxodon Warhammer was an uncommon when it debuted in Mirrodin, Spirit Loop is an aura that returns to your and should the creature die and it stacks with other copies of itself. And more options should be available. Going white could actually be a good idea for this kind of deck. I had built a w/r Pyrohemia enrage deck long before enrage was a thing and it works quite well, with Wall of Hope gaining me life. In an earlier version of that deck I also used Dromad Purebred. Going white also gives you Bellowing Aegisaur to make your creatures bigger.
In regards to Gray Merchant of Asphodel, sure, that player will get a lot of life, but you won't have to reduce it all by yourself again. That's actually true for the entire FFA game, the other players will hit each other, too, so not all damage has to come from you.
And my point about the land count is tempo. To reach 3 lands by turn 3 consistently, and possibly 4 lands by turn 4, 20 lands just won't cut it. All your awesome cards won't do anything if you don't have the mana, and don't have it on time. It has been established over the last decade of the game, that a 60 card deck that isn't overly aggressive needs about 24 lands to function properly. One simply cannot afford to wait several turns for that 4th land drop anymore, the game advances too fast for that nowadays. If you want your deck to be any good, a solid land base is nessessary. So don't be greedy with your lands, you'll just cripple your deck from the get go. If you find, that you want to cram too many things into your deck, cut some of those, not the land count. You will have to let go of some ideas to make others work. Just use the ones you cut in another deck.
Although I agree with the said White cards, I don't think I'll add another color right now. I already have a dino that gives me life with Enrage and the Loxodon (which can be greatly buffed through Haze of Rage.
I'll stick with 3 colors for now. Maybe I'll add White later.
Some comments:
1) I think Savage Twister and Firespout overlap. I'm not sure I want 4 cards doing almost the same thing.
2) Almost every deck on the FFA uses black, therefore: Reap. It is amazing, works amazing on any deck on the game. The same goes for Skullwinder and it adds A LOT of politics play chosing who I'll target.
3) Fanning the Flames is there just to be sure I'll have somthing to spend all my mana on the late game, if needed (my creatures are dead, for example).
4) I've added 2 Arcane Lighthouse to be able to kill Hexproofed creatures. I'm considering adding a Archetype of Endurance on the deck, to hexproof my creatures. Not sure if 1 or 2, though.
My main goal is to:
1) Pyrohemia my Sun-Crowned Hunters to damage whoever I want.
2) Pyrohemia all the other Enraged dinos to proc their effects.
3) Buybacking Haze of Rage to boost all creatures when enemy can't defend himself.
4) Lay low behind walls while doing it. A friend suggested Deadly Recluse because of Deathtouch, which scares a lot the attackers. I'm not sure if i use both or just the Wall.
5) If my creatures were killed, I can use Fanning the Flames with buyback to remove a creature or player that is targeting/locking me.
My major concern right now is that I'm unnable to remove strong creatures in one go, since I removed my black cards like Victim of Night.
Also, I already have 66 cards (and I haven't added neither Deadly Recluse nor the Archetype of Endurance yet. I'm not experienced in chosing how many cards of each, so maybe I've screwed up bad.
Any advices are more than welcome. And I can't thank you enough for you time and advices !
It's totally fine to put updated decklists in your answering posts, in fact doing so instead of linking to other sites is usually the better way to go about it. Some people are just not going to look at those links and you lose potential advisors.
Now the first thing about your deck that spings to my mind is, that blue seems totally unnessessary so far. The few counterspells (and Dispel is quite niche at that) and some library manipulation just aren't worth the strain on your mana base, and they are less effective in larger multiplayer games than they would be in duels. Cutting blue entirely and going full in on red/green instead will make the deck more focused and stronger.
The second thing is, that your key pieces should be there as full four copies each. After all, they are what your deck needs to function the way you want it to. You have no tutors, so full playsets and redundancy are the way to go. That means at least full 4 copies of Pyrohemia and 4 Sun-Crowned Hunters. Though the Hunters could stay at 3 if you also include Spitemares. At 4 mana, they fit into your mana curve very nicely, where you have a serious hole right now.
Haze of Rage is really underpowered. A straight up Overrun would be far more effective. If you need such an effect at all. With Pyrohemia and your larger creatures, which probably won't be too numerous anyway, Haze just doesn't do enough. A solid equipment like Vulshok Morningstar serves pretty much the same purpose, but will also make your enrage creatures tougher, so that you can put more mana into Pyrohemia without killing them.
Fanning the Flames won't be dealing much damage if you intend to buyback it every time you cast it. It's much more likely, that you'll use it as a straight up Blaze. But it's fine to add a pet card to your deck in Casual.
You can get some life from playing lands, even color fixing ones to counteract Pyrohemia's damage on yourself. For r/g there are two such lands: Kazandu Refuge and Rugged Highlands. Radiant Fountain is also an option to virtually start the game with more life. Gruul Turf would let you reuse them for more life.
For dealing with bigger creatures, you can look into green, which has some really good options. Utopia Vow, Beast Within, a whole bunch of fight cards ala Prey Upon, Lignify, etc. Though with Pyrohemia and Spitemare, which you really should include, you can take down quite the big prey. Maybe run some Shivan Meteors to kill even most of the bigger Eldrazi, or to aim at a Spitemare to hit a player for 13, though it kills the 'mare, too..
Arcane Lighthouse seems unnessessary, since none of the sweepers nor Pyrohemia target anything. The only card that this could help a bit is Fanning the Flames, but that's already costly enough with your intent to buyback it.
Based on that, here is a crude decklist that I would probably start tinkering with. This is not by far a finished deck.
Card draw is king in multiplayer.
6 equipment seems much. (Though the ‘mares love pump)
Regrow (or shuffle plus draw) effects are also pretty powerful in MP.
Not convinced by the Flames, that’s five mana for zero damage if you buyback.
I’d probably four-of the Hunters.
But maybe I should wait until the OP shows a list.
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It's totally fine to put updated decklists in your answering posts, in fact doing so instead of linking to other sites is usually the better way to go about it. Some people are just not going to look at those links and you lose potential advisors.
Thanks ! I wasn't sure how to add a whole deck, now I've quoted you and I can add the deck here on the forum.
Now the first thing about your deck that spings to my mind is, that blue seems totally unnessessary so far.
Objectively blue is unnecessary, but counterspell isn't. As I said, not only some decks have some really nasty things (destroying cards, exiling cards, Gray Merchant of Asphodel or discarding cards from the top of the library to the graveyard), but there are some OTK combos. As much as I can say "let anyone else dispel it", I'm always looking for an extra counterspell.
On the other hand, I agree that Dispel was only there because my last deck had some really big creatures that I didn't wanted counterspelled, so I used it just to counter-counterspells. This deck doesn't rely on one or two cards alone as the other one did, so I'm willing to do this:
I'll put 2 island, 3 counterspell and those Ponder. When I land filter with Yavimaya Elder or Cultivate and I recognize I'm in no hurry to rush more Mountain and Forest, I'll get one "extra" Island until I have both.
This way I won't hurt my land economy that much, but I'll be able to counterspell when needed.
Since no one in my table removes Lands and both my dedication to Red and Green are low (most of the cards only cost 1 specific mana), this is a bet I'm willing to take. Consider this my "pet card", instead of Fanning the Flames (which you convinced me to remove).
I've taken Ponder over Mystic Speculation because Speculation was a Sorcery and I won't have any other mean to draw cards after I scry other than waiting next turn.
The second thing is, that your key pieces should be there as full four copies each. After all, they are what your deck needs to function the way you want it to.
Agreed, This is what my last deck lacked and I hated it for it. I'll adjust the numbers on the end of the post.
Haze of Rage is really underpowered. A straight up Overrun would be far more effective.
While I agree that Overrun would allow me to use Pyrohemia more times on the same turn, it just works once. The battles on that FFA tend to be REALLY long. I don't want to waste Overrun on a turn and never use it again. Haze of Rage allows me to do the buffing every turn (if I have the required mana), which is way more effective on the long run. If I'm unable to burn Sun-Crowned Hunters this is the next best thing to win the game. Vulshok Morningstar is good, but only affects one creature. Also, I'm not sure i want to spend A LOT of mana on Pyrohemia, because I'll add a "Target me" sign on my head. While I'm dealing only 1 damage to everyone and wrecking only one guy with Sun-Crowned Hunters burn and Haze of Rage's empowered dinos, I'll be safer, I guess.
You can get some life from playing lands, even color fixing ones to counteract Pyrohemia's damage on yourself. For r/g there are two such lands: Kazandu Refuge and Rugged Highlands. Radiant Fountain is also an option to virtually start the game with more life. Gruul Turf would let you reuse them for more life.
For dealing with bigger creatures, you can look into green, which has some really good options. Utopia Vow, Beast Within, a whole bunch of fight cards ala Prey Upon, Lignify, etc. Though with Pyrohemia and Spitemare, which you really should include, you can take down quite the big prey. Maybe run some Shivan Meteors to kill even most of the bigger Eldrazi, or to aim at a Spitemare to hit a player for 13, though it kills the 'mare, too..
All great ideas. I'm not sure which one to pick, though. I just noticed that AEther Membrane also works great against those creatures, since they will need to summon it again. I've considered also using Broken Fall to Regenerate AEther Membrane when they block something stronger than 5 or to regenerate Spitemare after a Shivan Meteor, which is AMAZING by itself.
Arcane Lighthouse seems unnessessary, since none of the sweepers nor Pyrohemia target anything. The only card that this could help a bit is Fanning the Flames, but that's already costly enough with your intent to buyback it.
Agreed. Removed both.
Some comments:
1) Why Firespout over Savage Twister? When considering both options, Savage Twister sounds better everytime, unless someone had a flying-heavy deck (but they don't). Most of them have a Baleful Strix mostly to draw cards, but that is all. The way I see it, Savage Twister sounds better overall, because I can choose how much it hurts.
2) I favored Spitemare and Shivan meteor over those green cards to deal with greater creatures.
3) I've removed Skullwinder and Reap, since in this deck have a lot of redundancy. The downside is that if someone Counterspell my cards or even kill it, I won't be able to get it again. (Also, this is why I still believe Haze of Rage is important. I'll still need to be able to kill someone just attacking, even if I'm out of Sun-Crowned Hunters.
Maybe Arcane Denial for Counterspell. One blue only, and it replaces itself.
My earlier response still stands, though the Eldes fix a lot.
I still advice some kind of recursion. (My friends say I see the graveyard as an extra hand...)
Getting extra mileage put of those Spitemares should be a priority, I’d say.
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My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Arcane Denial is actually a good counterspell to have, since I'll draw a card too. What do you suggest? Only one Island on the deck, or two?
Although I agree with you, I just don't know what to remove. Best I could do had 63 cards and I had to remove Reap and Skullwinder (and both do what Regrowth do, but even better). There is ALWAYS someone with a black deck, so Reap allows me to get from 2 to 5 cards, usually. I just don't know how to fit them on the deck.
Getting extra mileage put of those Spitemares should be a priority, I’d say.
I already have Pyrohemia and Shivan Meteor (although it kills the mare, unless I'm able to shove Broken Fall somewhere. Isn't it enough? Do you have any other suggestion?
I still think, you are too adamant about running blue and counterspells. Not all decks need those, and I don't mean only aggro decks either. Cutting blue is still the best advice I can give you right now. Counterspells aren't the only way to stop combos. Most combos rely on permanents of some kind, in which case, removing the key permanents with instant timing suffices. And red/green can do that, especially with artifacts or enchantments, but also creatures, planeswalkers, even lands. Beast Within would be an all-in-one answer, for example.
But, if you want to run blue, I'll say no more. Instead, here's some additional advice to get that blue mana. You could run some Terramorphic Expanse and/or Evolving Wilds, though you already have borderline numbers of ETB tapped lands. Alternatively, you could use Bant Panorama and/or Grixis Panorama to fetch an Island or a Mountain/Forest respectively. You are still putting a lot of strain on your mana with the double-blue counterspell. A less colorintensive alternative, like Mana Leak, Izzet Charm, or Negate, could ease this. They are not as versatile, yes, but may suffcice for your needs.
Since you are running blue, Spring // Mind may be a fit for your deck over Cultivate. You get the color fixing, a bit of accellarsation, and later some card draw.
I chose Firespout over Savage Twister for timing reasons. Twister needs 5 mana to do as much as Firespout, which you will have at the earliest by turn 4, probaly turn 5 or later. An early sweep of the board stops creature based mana acceleration and aggroish decks in their tracks, giving you breathing room to develop your board. From my experience, such a thing is essential for decks like this.
As for putting a target on your head, Pyrohemia already does this, since it threatens every smaller utility creature your opponents want to play. They'll be coming for you anyway, so don't pull your punches by weakening your deck. If you have to, pull your punches by not playing the cards as soon as you can, but rather some time later.
I don't expect you to have more than two, maybe three, creatures total that you can attack with in a given turn. I expect you to have even less that you want to attack with. And those are supposedly quite big already. That's why Haze of Rage is so weak for your deck, in my opinion, and why I consider Vulshok Morningstar a superior option, since it also keeps your creatures alive.
I know all too well, that cutting down to 60 hurts at first, but it always makes sense and results in a better deck. I, too, still have a hard time getting there with every new deck, and I've been building decks for 16 years.
Ok, I'll give some thought to the Blue question...
Let me ask you some other thing... If I was to drop Blue entirely, switching the Arcane Denial Thijs1301 suggested (which not only counters, but allows me to buy cards) for Beast Within, would you rather be without any mean to Draw Cards or would you add Harmonize even though I'm already on a tight spot for cards on deck?
I chose Firespout over Savage Twister for timing reasons. Twister needs 5 mana to do as much as Firespout, which you will have at the earliest by turn 4, probaly turn 5 or later. An early sweep of the board stops creature based mana acceleration and aggroish decks in their tracks, giving you breathing room to develop your board. From my experience, such a thing is essential for decks like this.
Great advice, I'll hold on to that and change the cards.
As for putting a target on your head, Pyrohemia already does this, since it threatens every smaller utility creature your opponents want to play. They'll be coming for you anyway, so don't pull your punches by weakening your deck. If you have to, pull your punches by not playing the cards as soon as you can, but rather some time later.
This one is a great advice! Once I've came up with some really strong cards into play and they 3v1 me to death before I could finish all of them (I killed only 1). I'm really worried turning the whole deck into a "Target me" sign, but as you've said, It is better to hold my punches with the cards I'm using than the cards I'm putting on deck. The first I can change during game, the latter I can't.
I don't expect you to have more than two, maybe three, creatures total that you can attack with in a given turn. I expect you to have even less that you want to attack with. And those are supposedly quite big already.
This is where I got lost.
I have 21 creatures, though I'll only attack with 15 (arguabily 12, if you count those Sun-Crowned Hunters out of the loop, even though I could attack with them if the enemy is without creatures). Do you really think I'll have only 2 or 3 creatures to attack overall? I was expecting to be quite efficient at attacking with 5 to 7 creatures buffed with Haze of Rage (and mostly when the enemy can't block, since I already damaged my creatures).
The RG look pretty good.
Maybe drop some Enrage critters and Morningstars for a Genesis?
If you drop enough you can go 4x with thr Elder and the Cultivate and still end up with 60 cards...
Then goldfish to test if the numbers are right.
And just go for it.
I don't expect you to have more than two, maybe three, creatures total that you can attack with in a given turn. I expect you to have even less that you want to attack with. And those are supposedly quite big already.
This is where I got lost.
I have 21 creatures, though I'll only attack with 15 (arguabily 12, if you count those Sun-Crowned Hunters out of the loop, even though I could attack with them if the enemy is without creatures). Do you really think I'll have only 2 or 3 creatures to attack overall? I was expecting to be quite efficient at attacking with 5 to 7 creatures buffed with Haze of Rage (and mostly when the enemy can't block, since I already damaged my creatures).
Do you expect your opponents to sit idle while you amass that large number of creatures? Anything big enough to be a threat will not live very long. Also, this many creatures on the board is a big invitation for someone else's sweeper. You don't want to set yourself up for massive card disadvantage, and thus shouldn't play a 4th creature if three are enough to hold the fort and do business. Also consider, that you won't be seeing more than half of your deck, realistically you'll see about a third or less. That means, that of those 21 creatures you'll get a total of about 7 during the entire game. You want to hold some of them back to recover from the nasty things your opponents are bound to do.
While card draw is the most direct way of getting card advantage, there are other ways, like sweepers. A well timed board wipe can be much more effective in that regard. And repeatable abilities like the loyalty abilities of planeswalkers and Pyrohemia are also basically free cards. I sure love to refill my hand and squeeze in some form of card draw, but personally, I look for utility first. In the end, it is options that win you the game. More cards usually means more options, but you can get them some other ways, too. Like reusable cards (buyback, flashback, retrace), modal spells/abilities, cycling cards (eg. Beneath the Sands), etc. And don't forget, that card draw spells also take up card slots and cost mana, which slows you down. They make most sense when they can virtually reduce deck size to less than 60. If adding such cards at best keeps your virtual deck size at 60 (and every two extra cards nessessitate about one additional land, too), you are most likely better off without them. Their goal is to draw the cards you need, but flat out drawing the card you need instead of that card draw spell is better, since you can use it right away without spending mana on the card draw first.
Or get the draw in addition to some other useful effect. Like cycling a Slice and Dice. In your deck, this could be a major factor, since you often won't want to do massive damage to all creaures, just ping them a bit. And it still kills those pesky one toughness creatures like many elves and birds. I already mentioned Spring // Mind which is another example for this kind of utility, the primary purpose is to fix and accellerate your mana, but later you can squeeze some additional cards out of it.
Do you expect your opponents to sit idle while you amass that large number of creatures? Anything big enough to be a threat will not live very long. Also, this many creatures on the board is a big invitation for someone else's sweeper. You don't want to set yourself up for massive card disadvantage, and thus shouldn't play a 4th creature if three are enough to hold the fort and do business. Also consider, that you won't be seeing more than half of your deck, realistically you'll see about a third or less. That means, that of those 21 creatures you'll get a total of about 7 during the entire game. You want to hold some of them back to recover from the nasty things your opponents are bound to do.
Damn... I'm completly destroyed by your arguments. lol.
Ok, you both convinced me. I'll stick with Red and Green for a while, test it a while and try to tune it. I've also added Spring//Mind.
This is what I got so far:
That kills the Gray Merchant player with giant Chandra's Spitfires or whatever. Cards like Carpet of Flowers and Compost are obviously going to be stellar in some metas and heinous in others but I'd happily run both as 4-ofs in most 4-5 player games as they can both pick up a ton of a free wins for you.
I've recently moved to another city and found a group of players there who play Free For All (FFA) once a week (4 to 6 players).
There is only one House rules: All deck are rareless.
Since I've never played a FFA game before, I'm looking for advice to create a new deck to be effective on this multiplayer setting.
Usually the decks played on their FFA are: Tokens, Aggro (one full Artifact, one Elf, one Slivers, but only when there are only 4 players, no one plays aggro with more than 4), a really annoying control deck with Spy Kit and Echoing Truth (return all creatures to hand) and a deck based on Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
There are one or two decks that have OTK combos, but they aren't usually used.
I was expecting to create something with Blue (to scry / draw cards and counterspell), Green (some creatures and searching for lands on the library to accelerate the game), Black (destroy creature, animate dead) and Red (control burns divided between creatures).
Blue is a must. And so is Green. I'm not sure I want to keep Black this time around, though. I could drop it for Red or use 4 colors.
Yes, I know, Red. On a FFA. I already know the odds, but hear me out:
Since a lot of those decks are based on really weak creatures (1 resistance, 2 at best) with really annoying effects (gaining life, buying cards, summoning tokens, generating mana), I was expecting to use some spells like Arc Lightning (2 damage) or Forked Bolt (3 damage) for control. I already know that I'm not going to create a full burn deck on a FFA because, well, I have 80 to 120 hit points to burn, instead of regular 20, but on this scenario, it sounds interesting to me. Also, no one uses red cards on their FFA.
Since I have 20 lands on deck, plus 3 Cultivate and 3 Yavimaya Elders, that not only it accelerates my game, but allows me to choose which basic lands I need, I expect to have a lot of lands. And since my deck isn't really heavy on the mana curve, I'll probably end my turns with A LOT of untapped lands on the field.
I have low mana devotion on all colours, so the best part of those cards is that I can choose which land I require based on my hand and the cards on play. This gives me a lot of versatility to work with, even more so when paired with Mystical Speculation's Scry 3.
I can send cards to the bottom as much as I want. When I want I can shuffle the library on demand.
So, back to the point: I was considering to use cards with Buyback, like Mystical Speculation (scry) or Shattering Pulse (destroy artifacts).
I don't really know good Flashback cards, but maybe those are an option too. What I'm trying to say is that I need cards to spend all those lands I've accelerated. I've even considered using cheap cards with buyback paired with cards with Storm.
Now, the major problems I'm facing with this deck so far:
1) I can't rely on red burn damage for two reasons: As I said, I have 80 to 120 hit points to burn on a FFA, not 20 like a duel. Also, that pulls a lot of aggro on multiplayer. So I need new Green or Red creatures to make it work.
2) I'm lacking creatures and I don't have a clue about what i should use. It would be great to have creatures with synergy with the other cards on the deck (like Cinder Pyromancer, that untaps everytime I cast a red spell).
3) I'm really vulnerable to creatures. Maybe problem 2 will solve this. Maybe I should use walls? Also, I can't gain/recover HP.
4) I need cards to spend that huge amount of untapped lands I'll have. Cards with Buyback are interesting, so I can use them every round, instead of using it only once.
If you can give any advice of cards for that deck, I would be really thankful!
Thank you in advance for reading all of this!
Looking forward to read your answers!
Walls are a good way to convince the other players to go for someone else without looking threatening. Lightning-Rig Crew has a big butt, and can gradually reduce all opponents to ash. You don't even need to play other pirates (though playing some makes the card better obviously). My favorite red wall is Aether Membrane.
Red can be a force to reckon with in multiplayer FFA. It's just that one shot burn spells are less effective the more players there are. But good spot removal is never a waste in any format.
Even with 6 land search cards, playing only 20 lands is not enough. You expect to have plenty of mana later in the game, but it won't be as much as you think with this few lands, and not that early either. With those numbers you still need at the very least 22, and I'd start building with 23. Those few more lands make it much more likely, that you can play a land searcher on turn 3, and it helps with color fixing, too. The key is to include ways to use excess mana. But being too greedy and cutting into your land base will hurt your deck far more than the few extra nonland cards will help it.
I'm not sure what your intended strategy is. You mentioned quite a number of cards and effects to aid your strategy, whatever it may turn out to be. But, what IS your goal? How to you plan on winning? How do you want to take out the other players? You have to answer that first, otherwise you'll just end up with a pile of cards without focus.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
At first, my idea was to use Green creatures to deal damage, paired with Red's control (with lesser sweepers, as you said) and blue's scry/draw cards. My last deck used Pestilence to do damage to all creatures the same way you recommended Pyrohemia.
Now, you're giving me a lot of good ideas with the Enrage mechanic. I've played MtG when Tempest was released and only now I'm picking up the game again. I wasn't even aware of that mechanic yet. Now the damage my creatures will take won't be a problem, will be a desired mechanic and I really enjoy it.
I could use Enraged creatures and damage them all with spells like Pyrohemia or Lightning-Rig Crew to activate the Enrage effects. I could Arc Lightning two 1/1 creatures and even Enrage a Ravenous Daggertooth for extra health that turn, or Enrage Sun-Crowned Hunters to deal more 3 damage that turn for free. Or increase Snapping Sailback's power and resistance.
What worries me is the number of cards I'll use doing it. A lot of players have life drain mechanics (with cards like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Basilica Screecher or even lifelink). I'm afraid I'll reach a point where I simply can't outdamage someone's already high health pool If I don't have big, reliable creatures that can attack every turn.
Also, hitting all players pulls A LOT of aggro and I'm afraid I'll be focused from the very first rounds. As you said, maybe walls are the way to go, offering me protecting from those early control burn spells. Aether Membrane really is amazing !
I really don't see that happening in my games. As I said, even if I could damage all players at once, one Gray Merchant of Asphodel I can't counter gives someone 40 HP (hitting 5 players for 8 damage). I'm not sure I'll have enough cards on the deck to kill this guy, unless I use Fanning the Flames with buyback spending all my mana every round. Of course this only works against one target, to finish him off.
Now I'm not following. If I start my deck with 23 lands, I'll only have 37 cards to divide between blue's counterspells, scry and draw cards, red's burn and green's creatures. Also, from the cards I've already read, my dedication to a color will be 1, maybe 2.
I'm not sure I'll have enough cards on the library to do so many things on one round (unless I use a lot of buyback cards, which is also a good strategy).
From what I've seen, I can't see Burn as a real threat on the game. Unless I can summon a lot of Cinder Pyromancers and use something like Seething Anger (4 mana cost), Searing Touch(5 mana cost) or Haze of Rage(4 mana cost) to untap them and use the effect many times each round. Enrage sounds like way more reliable.
Now that I think of it, If i had enraged creatures that I can damage with Pyrohemia, I could also use Haze of Rage multiple times each round to buff them up. Since it has Storm, first time I cast it it will give +1/+0, second time +2/+0 and last time +3/+0, increasing +6/+0 for all enraged creatures. This could be a really nice strategy (considering I have 12 untaped mana on the game).
Sounds like my game strategy is taking form =)
Still, advices are more than welcome !
In regards to Gray Merchant of Asphodel, sure, that player will get a lot of life, but you won't have to reduce it all by yourself again. That's actually true for the entire FFA game, the other players will hit each other, too, so not all damage has to come from you.
And my point about the land count is tempo. To reach 3 lands by turn 3 consistently, and possibly 4 lands by turn 4, 20 lands just won't cut it. All your awesome cards won't do anything if you don't have the mana, and don't have it on time. It has been established over the last decade of the game, that a 60 card deck that isn't overly aggressive needs about 24 lands to function properly. One simply cannot afford to wait several turns for that 4th land drop anymore, the game advances too fast for that nowadays. If you want your deck to be any good, a solid land base is nessessary. So don't be greedy with your lands, you'll just cripple your deck from the get go. If you find, that you want to cram too many things into your deck, cut some of those, not the land count. You will have to let go of some ideas to make others work. Just use the ones you cut in another deck.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I'll stick with 3 colors for now. Maybe I'll add White later.
I'm not sure I can add a whole deck on a reply, so I've created it on TappedOut (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dino-burn-rareless-ffa/).
Can you check it and give me some advice?
Some comments:
1) I think Savage Twister and Firespout overlap. I'm not sure I want 4 cards doing almost the same thing.
2) Almost every deck on the FFA uses black, therefore: Reap. It is amazing, works amazing on any deck on the game. The same goes for Skullwinder and it adds A LOT of politics play chosing who I'll target.
3) Fanning the Flames is there just to be sure I'll have somthing to spend all my mana on the late game, if needed (my creatures are dead, for example).
4) I've added 2 Arcane Lighthouse to be able to kill Hexproofed creatures. I'm considering adding a Archetype of Endurance on the deck, to hexproof my creatures. Not sure if 1 or 2, though.
My main goal is to:
1) Pyrohemia my Sun-Crowned Hunters to damage whoever I want.
2) Pyrohemia all the other Enraged dinos to proc their effects.
3) Buybacking Haze of Rage to boost all creatures when enemy can't defend himself.
4) Lay low behind walls while doing it. A friend suggested Deadly Recluse because of Deathtouch, which scares a lot the attackers. I'm not sure if i use both or just the Wall.
5) If my creatures were killed, I can use Fanning the Flames with buyback to remove a creature or player that is targeting/locking me.
My major concern right now is that I'm unnable to remove strong creatures in one go, since I removed my black cards like Victim of Night.
Also, I already have 66 cards (and I haven't added neither Deadly Recluse nor the Archetype of Endurance yet. I'm not experienced in chosing how many cards of each, so maybe I've screwed up bad.
Any advices are more than welcome. And I can't thank you enough for you time and advices !
EDIT: One last thing:
I'm not sure who is this guy, but he confirmed what I understood from Enrage's phrasing: http://www.boardgamebarrister.com/magic-ruling-exactly-how-enraged/
I can't proc Sun-Crowned Hunters thrice with an Arc Lightning because the damage happens only one time, but I can proc it thrice from activating Pyrohemia three times and waiting for the damage to resolve. Therefore each Sun-Crowned Hunters can potentially do 9 damage to an opponent with only 3 red manas. If I have 2 Sun-Crowned Hunters on the field, 18 damage with the same 3 red manas. 27 if 3 dinos.
That is a lot of unblockable damage every turn, not counting the attacks, Haze of Rage and the other cards.
Now the first thing about your deck that spings to my mind is, that blue seems totally unnessessary so far. The few counterspells (and Dispel is quite niche at that) and some library manipulation just aren't worth the strain on your mana base, and they are less effective in larger multiplayer games than they would be in duels. Cutting blue entirely and going full in on red/green instead will make the deck more focused and stronger.
The second thing is, that your key pieces should be there as full four copies each. After all, they are what your deck needs to function the way you want it to. You have no tutors, so full playsets and redundancy are the way to go. That means at least full 4 copies of Pyrohemia and 4 Sun-Crowned Hunters. Though the Hunters could stay at 3 if you also include Spitemares. At 4 mana, they fit into your mana curve very nicely, where you have a serious hole right now.
Haze of Rage is really underpowered. A straight up Overrun would be far more effective. If you need such an effect at all. With Pyrohemia and your larger creatures, which probably won't be too numerous anyway, Haze just doesn't do enough. A solid equipment like Vulshok Morningstar serves pretty much the same purpose, but will also make your enrage creatures tougher, so that you can put more mana into Pyrohemia without killing them.
Fanning the Flames won't be dealing much damage if you intend to buyback it every time you cast it. It's much more likely, that you'll use it as a straight up Blaze. But it's fine to add a pet card to your deck in Casual.
You can get some life from playing lands, even color fixing ones to counteract Pyrohemia's damage on yourself. For r/g there are two such lands: Kazandu Refuge and Rugged Highlands. Radiant Fountain is also an option to virtually start the game with more life. Gruul Turf would let you reuse them for more life.
For dealing with bigger creatures, you can look into green, which has some really good options. Utopia Vow, Beast Within, a whole bunch of fight cards ala Prey Upon, Lignify, etc. Though with Pyrohemia and Spitemare, which you really should include, you can take down quite the big prey. Maybe run some Shivan Meteors to kill even most of the bigger Eldrazi, or to aim at a Spitemare to hit a player for 13, though it kills the 'mare, too..
Arcane Lighthouse seems unnessessary, since none of the sweepers nor Pyrohemia target anything. The only card that this could help a bit is Fanning the Flames, but that's already costly enough with your intent to buyback it.
Based on that, here is a crude decklist that I would probably start tinkering with. This is not by far a finished deck.
6 Forest
9 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (19)
4 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
3 Sun-Crowned Hunters
4 Vulshok Morningstar
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Cultivate
4 Firespout
4 Pyrohemia
1 Fanning the Flames
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Card draw is king in multiplayer.
6 equipment seems much. (Though the ‘mares love pump)
Regrow (or shuffle plus draw) effects are also pretty powerful in MP.
Not convinced by the Flames, that’s five mana for zero damage if you buyback.
I’d probably four-of the Hunters.
But maybe I should wait until the OP shows a list.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Thanks ! I wasn't sure how to add a whole deck, now I've quoted you and I can add the deck here on the forum.
Objectively blue is unnecessary, but counterspell isn't. As I said, not only some decks have some really nasty things (destroying cards, exiling cards, Gray Merchant of Asphodel or discarding cards from the top of the library to the graveyard), but there are some OTK combos. As much as I can say "let anyone else dispel it", I'm always looking for an extra counterspell.
On the other hand, I agree that Dispel was only there because my last deck had some really big creatures that I didn't wanted counterspelled, so I used it just to counter-counterspells. This deck doesn't rely on one or two cards alone as the other one did, so I'm willing to do this:
I'll put 2 island, 3 counterspell and those Ponder. When I land filter with Yavimaya Elder or Cultivate and I recognize I'm in no hurry to rush more Mountain and Forest, I'll get one "extra" Island until I have both.
This way I won't hurt my land economy that much, but I'll be able to counterspell when needed.
Since no one in my table removes Lands and both my dedication to Red and Green are low (most of the cards only cost 1 specific mana), this is a bet I'm willing to take. Consider this my "pet card", instead of Fanning the Flames (which you convinced me to remove).
I've taken Ponder over Mystic Speculation because Speculation was a Sorcery and I won't have any other mean to draw cards after I scry other than waiting next turn.
Agreed, This is what my last deck lacked and I hated it for it. I'll adjust the numbers on the end of the post.
While I agree that Overrun would allow me to use Pyrohemia more times on the same turn, it just works once. The battles on that FFA tend to be REALLY long. I don't want to waste Overrun on a turn and never use it again. Haze of Rage allows me to do the buffing every turn (if I have the required mana), which is way more effective on the long run. If I'm unable to burn Sun-Crowned Hunters this is the next best thing to win the game.
Vulshok Morningstar is good, but only affects one creature. Also, I'm not sure i want to spend A LOT of mana on Pyrohemia, because I'll add a "Target me" sign on my head. While I'm dealing only 1 damage to everyone and wrecking only one guy with Sun-Crowned Hunters burn and Haze of Rage's empowered dinos, I'll be safer, I guess.
Agreed. Amazing lands, I'll add them.
All great ideas. I'm not sure which one to pick, though. I just noticed that AEther Membrane also works great against those creatures, since they will need to summon it again. I've considered also using Broken Fall to Regenerate AEther Membrane when they block something stronger than 5 or to regenerate Spitemare after a Shivan Meteor, which is AMAZING by itself.
Agreed. Removed both.
Some comments:
1) Why Firespout over Savage Twister? When considering both options, Savage Twister sounds better everytime, unless someone had a flying-heavy deck (but they don't). Most of them have a Baleful Strix mostly to draw cards, but that is all. The way I see it, Savage Twister sounds better overall, because I can choose how much it hurts.
2) I favored Spitemare and Shivan meteor over those green cards to deal with greater creatures.
3) I've removed Skullwinder and Reap, since in this deck have a lot of redundancy. The downside is that if someone Counterspell my cards or even kill it, I won't be able to get it again. (Also, this is why I still believe Haze of Rage is important. I'll still need to be able to kill someone just attacking, even if I'm out of Sun-Crowned Hunters.
2 Islands
5 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (23)
4 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
4 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Cultivate
3 Counterspell
2 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Savage Twister
4 Pyrohemia
2 Mystic Speculation
2 Broken Fall
2 Shivan Meteor
2 Haze of Rage
I also did a version with only 63 cards, although I had to remove some things I didn't wanted to, but I don't think there is any other way.
2 Islands
5 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (21)
3 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
3 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Cultivate
3 Counterspell
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Savage Twister
4 Pyrohemia
2 Mystic Speculation
2 Shivan Meteor
What do you think?
Thanks again for all your support !
My earlier response still stands, though the Eldes fix a lot.
I still advice some kind of recursion. (My friends say I see the graveyard as an extra hand...)
Getting extra mileage put of those Spitemares should be a priority, I’d say.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Although I agree with you, I just don't know what to remove. Best I could do had 63 cards and I had to remove Reap and Skullwinder (and both do what Regrowth do, but even better). There is ALWAYS someone with a black deck, so Reap allows me to get from 2 to 5 cards, usually. I just don't know how to fit them on the deck.
I already have Pyrohemia and Shivan Meteor (although it kills the mare, unless I'm able to shove Broken Fall somewhere. Isn't it enough? Do you have any other suggestion?
But, if you want to run blue, I'll say no more. Instead, here's some additional advice to get that blue mana. You could run some Terramorphic Expanse and/or Evolving Wilds, though you already have borderline numbers of ETB tapped lands. Alternatively, you could use Bant Panorama and/or Grixis Panorama to fetch an Island or a Mountain/Forest respectively. You are still putting a lot of strain on your mana with the double-blue counterspell. A less colorintensive alternative, like Mana Leak, Izzet Charm, or Negate, could ease this. They are not as versatile, yes, but may suffcice for your needs.
Since you are running blue, Spring // Mind may be a fit for your deck over Cultivate. You get the color fixing, a bit of accellarsation, and later some card draw.
I chose Firespout over Savage Twister for timing reasons. Twister needs 5 mana to do as much as Firespout, which you will have at the earliest by turn 4, probaly turn 5 or later. An early sweep of the board stops creature based mana acceleration and aggroish decks in their tracks, giving you breathing room to develop your board. From my experience, such a thing is essential for decks like this.
As for putting a target on your head, Pyrohemia already does this, since it threatens every smaller utility creature your opponents want to play. They'll be coming for you anyway, so don't pull your punches by weakening your deck. If you have to, pull your punches by not playing the cards as soon as you can, but rather some time later.
I don't expect you to have more than two, maybe three, creatures total that you can attack with in a given turn. I expect you to have even less that you want to attack with. And those are supposedly quite big already. That's why Haze of Rage is so weak for your deck, in my opinion, and why I consider Vulshok Morningstar a superior option, since it also keeps your creatures alive.
I know all too well, that cutting down to 60 hurts at first, but it always makes sense and results in a better deck. I, too, still have a hard time getting there with every new deck, and I've been building decks for 16 years.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Let me ask you some other thing... If I was to drop Blue entirely, switching the Arcane Denial Thijs1301 suggested (which not only counters, but allows me to buy cards) for Beast Within, would you rather be without any mean to Draw Cards or would you add Harmonize even though I'm already on a tight spot for cards on deck?
Great advice, I'll hold on to that and change the cards.
This one is a great advice! Once I've came up with some really strong cards into play and they 3v1 me to death before I could finish all of them (I killed only 1). I'm really worried turning the whole deck into a "Target me" sign, but as you've said, It is better to hold my punches with the cards I'm using than the cards I'm putting on deck. The first I can change during game, the latter I can't.
This is where I got lost.
I have 21 creatures, though I'll only attack with 15 (arguabily 12, if you count those Sun-Crowned Hunters out of the loop, even though I could attack with them if the enemy is without creatures). Do you really think I'll have only 2 or 3 creatures to attack overall? I was expecting to be quite efficient at attacking with 5 to 7 creatures buffed with Haze of Rage (and mostly when the enemy can't block, since I already damaged my creatures).
This leaves me with 2 drafts:
2 Islands
5 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (21)
3 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
3 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Cultivate
3 Counterspell
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Firespout
4 Pyrohemia
2 Mystic Speculation
2 Shivan Meteor
6 Forest
9 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (21)
3 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
3 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Cultivate
3 Beast Within
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Firespout
4 Pyrohemia
4 Vulshok Morningstar
2 Shivan Meteor
Maybe drop some Enrage critters and Morningstars for a Genesis?
If you drop enough you can go 4x with thr Elder and the Cultivate and still end up with 60 cards...
Then goldfish to test if the numbers are right.
And just go for it.
By the way, in some meta’s Krosan Grip or Chaos Warp are better than the B. Within.
Oh. Uhm... is it still “no rare”? Then some of my suggestions are invalid.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Do you expect your opponents to sit idle while you amass that large number of creatures? Anything big enough to be a threat will not live very long. Also, this many creatures on the board is a big invitation for someone else's sweeper. You don't want to set yourself up for massive card disadvantage, and thus shouldn't play a 4th creature if three are enough to hold the fort and do business. Also consider, that you won't be seeing more than half of your deck, realistically you'll see about a third or less. That means, that of those 21 creatures you'll get a total of about 7 during the entire game. You want to hold some of them back to recover from the nasty things your opponents are bound to do.
While card draw is the most direct way of getting card advantage, there are other ways, like sweepers. A well timed board wipe can be much more effective in that regard. And repeatable abilities like the loyalty abilities of planeswalkers and Pyrohemia are also basically free cards. I sure love to refill my hand and squeeze in some form of card draw, but personally, I look for utility first. In the end, it is options that win you the game. More cards usually means more options, but you can get them some other ways, too. Like reusable cards (buyback, flashback, retrace), modal spells/abilities, cycling cards (eg. Beneath the Sands), etc. And don't forget, that card draw spells also take up card slots and cost mana, which slows you down. They make most sense when they can virtually reduce deck size to less than 60. If adding such cards at best keeps your virtual deck size at 60 (and every two extra cards nessessitate about one additional land, too), you are most likely better off without them. Their goal is to draw the cards you need, but flat out drawing the card you need instead of that card draw spell is better, since you can use it right away without spending mana on the card draw first.
Or get the draw in addition to some other useful effect. Like cycling a Slice and Dice. In your deck, this could be a major factor, since you often won't want to do massive damage to all creaures, just ping them a bit. And it still kills those pesky one toughness creatures like many elves and birds. I already mentioned Spring // Mind which is another example for this kind of utility, the primary purpose is to fix and accellerate your mana, but later you can squeeze some additional cards out of it.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Damn... I'm completly destroyed by your arguments. lol.
Ok, you both convinced me. I'll stick with Red and Green for a while, test it a while and try to tune it. I've also added Spring//Mind.
This is what I got so far:
6 Forest
9 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (21)
3 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
3 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
1 Cultivate
2 Spring // Mind
3 Beast Within
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Firespout
4 Pyrohemia
4 Vulshok Morningstar
2 Shivan Meteor
I want to thank you all again for your time, experience and expertise !
As soon as I can buy the deck I'll post a feedback on this thread to let you know how it did!
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
I recommend playing Ranging Raptors over Cultivate in your Pyrohemia deck. What about something like:
10x Mountain
4x Forest
4x Kazandu Refuge
4x Gruul Turf
2x Rugged Highlands
4x Chandra's Spitfire
4x Ranging Raptors
4x Spitemare
2x Warmonger
4x Snapping Sailback
4x Compost
1x Hull Breach
1x Volcanic Spray
4x Volcanic Fallout
2x Beast Within
2x Loxodon Warhammer
4x Pyrohemia
That kills the Gray Merchant player with giant Chandra's Spitfires or whatever. Cards like Carpet of Flowers and Compost are obviously going to be stellar in some metas and heinous in others but I'd happily run both as 4-ofs in most 4-5 player games as they can both pick up a ton of a free wins for you.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold