I was thinking of building a Timmy deck with each of the legendary dragons like Darigaaz, the Igniter and Vorosh, the Hunter--basically something that would have a bunch of multicolored creatures at CMC 6+. I'm not sure what to do about the mana base though. What are some suggestions for ramp and color fixing on a budget?
What I'd really like to do is use full sets of Nature's Lore and Skyshroud Claim to pull out dual lands with the forest subtype, but some of the enemy-colored lands like Breeding Pool are a little too pricey.
In other cases where I've built silly 5-color decks and didn't care about winning I used 4 Exotic Orchard and 4 of each of the Khan's Tri-Lands. But I'd like to try something a little bit more competitive this time.
Slightly off topic: I habitually run six bouncelands in my three color decks. Two for each color combination. (6 out of my 24 lands) In my meta that’s pretty optimal.
On topic: five bouncelands on 24 total seems fine to me in a 5c build.
Sorry, didn’t know the pools were 10$ cards. Just run the 4x Exotic Orchards instead.
And Dust Bowl can be read where it says Wasteland...
Whoops. Uhm... Tectonic Edge? (Phew! That one’s affordable.)
If you're solely playing dragons, you want 4x Haven of the Spirit Dragon and 4x Unclaimed Territory in here like a shot. Both sub-$2, both incredible.
Outside if this, if you're trying to stay budget, I wouldn't underestimate copies of all five basics and a pile of Evolving Wilds... they remain pretty useful. The Battle for Zendikar tango lands (e.g. Sunken Hollow) all work really well with this strategy too (and are all ridiculously cheap right now... they're all sub-$2, and play like something worth $5+).
I've been trying to get this to "work" for a while.
I didn't like ETBT lands since it's slow enough as it is - would hate to wait an additional turn for action. Landed on the following - there's probably a better way.
Essentially a Green creature-based ramp package, plus some color fixing.
Want something like 14 Green lands to have a 90% chance of having one in the opening hand to cast a dork. Mana dorks can fetch missing lands and/or chump in a pinch. Crystal Quarry/Chromatic Lantern fix colors (Crystal Quarry can also slow you down by a turn, but it at least taps for colorless, so it doesn't HAVE to slow you down if you have the colors needed through other means).
I tried Kaalia back in the day before she was $120/playset, but liked being able to hardcast dragons on turn 4 even more - replaced those slots with Captain Sisay and liked the deck a lot more.
The fatal flaw in this deck is that a single 6/6 dragon LOOKS scary and folks think is THE THREAT (even if a 6/6 with 3 opponents at 20 life each isn't REALLY scary) and so the deck typically flames out quickly (dragon gets Controlled, Pathed, etc.)
I love to play the deck, but don't think I've ever won a game with it - which might mean you should ignore any of the advice above.
If you're solely playing dragons, you want 4x Haven of the Spirit Dragon and 4x Unclaimed Territory in here like a shot. Both sub-$2, both incredible.
Outside if this, if you're trying to stay budget, I wouldn't underestimate copies of all five basics and a pile of Evolving Wilds... they remain pretty useful. The Battle for Zendikar tango lands (e.g. Sunken Hollow) all work really well with this strategy too (and are all ridiculously cheap right now... they're all sub-$2, and play like something worth $5+).
Thanks. I had forgotten about Haven of the Spirit Dragon; seems like a real no-brainer. Just those two by themselves should go a long way for meeting the color-fixing requirement in this particular deck.
The fatal flaw in this deck is that a single 6/6 dragon LOOKS scary and folks think is THE THREAT (even if a 6/6 with 3 opponents at 20 life each isn't REALLY scary) and so the deck typically flames out quickly (dragon gets Controlled, Pathed, etc.)
I love to play the deck, but don't think I've ever won a game with it - which might mean you should ignore any of the advice above.
On the contrary. Most of my other decks win too much. It's just a quirk of most of my friends being more casual deck-builders than I am. I'm always on the lookout for decks that aren't favored to win but would still be interesting to play.
I was trying to do the same thing but ended up with a Descendants' Path/Cream of the Crop deck built around cheap dorks and mostly basics with some light fixing. It's a very budget-friendly combo, all things considered, but I get if that's not what you're looking for.
I’m not sure if running 12 or more cards on top of your lands to fix the mana is better than ETBT lands.
It fills the board so it has a certain deterrant value but it eats into your cool-stuff space voraciously.
My preference would be good lands, a little fixing or ramp and at least six (preferably ten) cards that draw me extra cards one way or another.
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Oh, no, I'm not losing 12 card slots to ramp, I'm losing 16 card slots to ramp! [25 land, 16 ramp/fix, 5 draw/tutor, 15 toolbox threats. Yes, the 61st card is an extra land. I'm trying it out. Don't judge me.]
The dwagons enter play on turn 3 (sometimes) or 4 (mostly).
[Actually, I could do that with just 12 slots - Dragon Arch is the worst card in the deck - but it's, like, an Arch. For Draaaaagons. So it clearly needs to stay.]
I'm having trouble visualizing how less ramp but more card draw and ETBT lands is going to work expeditiously.
If I have only, say, 6 ramp slots, then best case I'm casting Syphon Mind on Turn 3, then 2nd ramp on Turn 4, then dragon on Turn 5. And that's if I DON'T hit an ETBT land on turns 3-5 and pick up 2 of 6 pieces of ramp (or 1 Skyshroud Claim). Standard case is probably more like Turn 6, but there is also the possibility that I'm casting that dragon on Turn 7 (after the 6th land ETBT on Turn 6). I also have had an open board, so by the time the first dragon is born, I've been smacked often enough that someone can deal with it by just killing me.
I think what I'm trying to say is: Did you have a decklist in mind?
I haven't tried Xyx's excellent Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl/Fertile Ground suggestion - will need to see if I can get the colors consistently. (That's one drawback of a dragon deck where each dragon might require a different combination of 3 colors to cast. I haven't found much use with Dragonspeaker Shaman + ilk - I don't need LESS colorless, so much as I need MORE colored. I could go back up on Lanterns & Quarries and such...)
From a pure power view it might be worse but I have so much fun playing it.
Yeah, I don't think this is a super powerful theme (but that's on purpose).
A million (or three, I forget) years ago, Prid3 suggested Destructive Force + 6/6 dragons + mana rocks + Amulets/Arches. And it worked, but... wasn't socially acceptable.
I couldn't get the Crux of Fate version to work. Doesn't mean it can't work - just didn't work for me at the time.
So I'm on current iteration of creature ramp. [I can't stop thinking about how this SHOULD be worse than enchantment ramp + mass removal version also suggested by Xyx - I must have done something wrong.]
In any case, back to theme: when opponents are on Purphoros, Waste Not, and Lurking Predators, well... the outcome is predictable.
When opponents play Spikey Cutthroat you should not play fair decks.
Maybe running five basics and four Sylvan Reclamation helps though.
My meta is “friendly mayhem” so my needs for unfair decks aren’t high.
(If you have a choice in it you could steer your meta towards the style you like, or vice versa, yourself towards another meta / playgroup.)
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
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What I'd really like to do is use full sets of Nature's Lore and Skyshroud Claim to pull out dual lands with the forest subtype, but some of the enemy-colored lands like Breeding Pool are a little too pricey.
In other cases where I've built silly 5-color decks and didn't care about winning I used 4 Exotic Orchard and 4 of each of the Khan's Tri-Lands. But I'd like to try something a little bit more competitive this time.
Any thoughts?
Something like 2 Wasteland (or other utility), 10 tri-lands evenly distributed in 10x 1 or 5x 2, four Reflecting Pool, four Shimmering Grotto, four Transguild Promenade supported by two Chromatic Lantern and four Kiora’s Follower seems good enough.
Switching tri-lands (half or all) for Ravnica bounce is an option.
Depending on your dech Cryptolith Rite is good too.
By the way, in my Timmy decks Temur Ascendancy rulez...!
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I also don't follow the suggestion to add bouncelands to a 5-color deck. I'm all for adding 4 to a 2-color deck, but I've never run more than that.
On topic: five bouncelands on 24 total seems fine to me in a 5c build.
Sorry, didn’t know the pools were 10$ cards. Just run the 4x Exotic Orchards instead.
And Dust Bowl can be read where it says Wasteland...
Whoops. Uhm... Tectonic Edge? (Phew! That one’s affordable.)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Outside if this, if you're trying to stay budget, I wouldn't underestimate copies of all five basics and a pile of Evolving Wilds... they remain pretty useful. The Battle for Zendikar tango lands (e.g. Sunken Hollow) all work really well with this strategy too (and are all ridiculously cheap right now... they're all sub-$2, and play like something worth $5+).
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I didn't like ETBT lands since it's slow enough as it is - would hate to wait an additional turn for action. Landed on the following - there's probably a better way.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Crystal Quarry
2 Chromatic Lantern
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
9 Forest (or more)
4 Dragon Arch (Quicksilver Amulet is better - comes down a turn sooner - but this is on-theme)
+Check Lands / Exotic Orchards / Unclaimed Territory / Havens (to taste)
Essentially a Green creature-based ramp package, plus some color fixing.
Want something like 14 Green lands to have a 90% chance of having one in the opening hand to cast a dork. Mana dorks can fetch missing lands and/or chump in a pinch. Crystal Quarry/Chromatic Lantern fix colors (Crystal Quarry can also slow you down by a turn, but it at least taps for colorless, so it doesn't HAVE to slow you down if you have the colors needed through other means).
When reprinted, grab a playset of Captain Sisay a copy of the legendary lands (Minamo, Shinka, etc.) and a Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
I tried Kaalia back in the day before she was $120/playset, but liked being able to hardcast dragons on turn 4 even more - replaced those slots with Captain Sisay and liked the deck a lot more.
The fatal flaw in this deck is that a single 6/6 dragon LOOKS scary and folks think is THE THREAT (even if a 6/6 with 3 opponents at 20 life each isn't REALLY scary) and so the deck typically flames out quickly (dragon gets Controlled, Pathed, etc.)
I love to play the deck, but don't think I've ever won a game with it - which might mean you should ignore any of the advice above.
Thanks. I had forgotten about Haven of the Spirit Dragon; seems like a real no-brainer. Just those two by themselves should go a long way for meeting the color-fixing requirement in this particular deck.
On the contrary. Most of my other decks win too much. It's just a quirk of most of my friends being more casual deck-builders than I am. I'm always on the lookout for decks that aren't favored to win but would still be interesting to play.
It fills the board so it has a certain deterrant value but it eats into your cool-stuff space voraciously.
My preference would be good lands, a little fixing or ramp and at least six (preferably ten) cards that draw me extra cards one way or another.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
The dwagons enter play on turn 3 (sometimes) or 4 (mostly).
[Actually, I could do that with just 12 slots - Dragon Arch is the worst card in the deck - but it's, like, an Arch. For Draaaaagons. So it clearly needs to stay.]
I'm having trouble visualizing how less ramp but more card draw and ETBT lands is going to work expeditiously.
If I have only, say, 6 ramp slots, then best case I'm casting Syphon Mind on Turn 3, then 2nd ramp on Turn 4, then dragon on Turn 5. And that's if I DON'T hit an ETBT land on turns 3-5 and pick up 2 of 6 pieces of ramp (or 1 Skyshroud Claim). Standard case is probably more like Turn 6, but there is also the possibility that I'm casting that dragon on Turn 7 (after the 6th land ETBT on Turn 6). I also have had an open board, so by the time the first dragon is born, I've been smacked often enough that someone can deal with it by just killing me.
I think what I'm trying to say is: Did you have a decklist in mind?
I haven't tried Xyx's excellent Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl/Fertile Ground suggestion - will need to see if I can get the colors consistently. (That's one drawback of a dragon deck where each dragon might require a different combination of 3 colors to cast. I haven't found much use with Dragonspeaker Shaman + ilk - I don't need LESS colorless, so much as I need MORE colored. I could go back up on Lanterns & Quarries and such...)
However I prefer to run cards like:
- Humble Defector
- Jace’s Archivist
- Mercurial Chemister
- Bloodgift Demon
- Nezumi Graverobber
- Havengul Lich
- Kiora’s Follower
- Garruk Wildspeaker
Plus bouncelands, lantern etcetera.From a pure power view it might be worse but I have so much fun playing it.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I see - could be fun - blockers and something to do in the middle if a Dragon isn't available. Thanks!
Yeah, I don't think this is a super powerful theme (but that's on purpose).
A million (or three, I forget) years ago, Prid3 suggested Destructive Force + 6/6 dragons + mana rocks + Amulets/Arches. And it worked, but... wasn't socially acceptable.
I couldn't get the Crux of Fate version to work. Doesn't mean it can't work - just didn't work for me at the time.
So I'm on current iteration of creature ramp. [I can't stop thinking about how this SHOULD be worse than enchantment ramp + mass removal version also suggested by Xyx - I must have done something wrong.]
In any case, back to theme: when opponents are on Purphoros, Waste Not, and Lurking Predators, well... the outcome is predictable.
Maybe running five basics and four Sylvan Reclamation helps though.
My meta is “friendly mayhem” so my needs for unfair decks aren’t high.
(If you have a choice in it you could steer your meta towards the style you like, or vice versa, yourself towards another meta / playgroup.)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.