I originally built this as a deck to teach my son when he gets into Magic after he learns to read (just in kindergarten), built several years ago. I play it as a change of pace deck. It does not have mana problems, especially after adding four Deserts. With the idea of enough green to do what I need and all red for the rest to power certain cards, here's the list.
The deck does best in no more than four person FFA, though it does well enough in games like Two-Headed variants, Star, Emperor's, too. Beyond that, it runs out of steam.
In one game of two-headed giant, a Primordial Hydra grew unchecked to 48/48, whereupon I Berserked him and Soul's Fired the opposing team for 96 damage, and could have attacked for the same.
The problem is that some games I end up stuck in elf/slime hell and don't get much going. That happened just yesterday when I lent the deck to a friend. Was wanting to see what the group thought about ways to improve small game consistency while holding on to the simpler design for a teaching deck and the fun of the deck's name, Crash and Burn. I believe I can re-vamp at least 8-12 slots with upgrades. Taurean Maulers were identified yesterday as expendable in favor of Forgotten Ancient, though Managorger Hydra is also a direct improvement due to built-in trample and growth from every spell.
Would an extra Genesis help? And/or one or two Feldon of the Third Path?
True card draw like Shamanic Revelation or impulsive card draw like Outpost Siege?
I tend to run (at least) six draw spells in a 60 card deck, preferably cards that are multipurpose. (Your STE'ves, Genesis Commands and Witnesses count for halves so I'd add at least two real draw spells.)
Discard and draw seven could be usefull too, seeing you run enough cards to get stuff from the yard.
Or you could also switch your lawnmowers for Heart Wardens.
Would an extra Genesis help? And/or one or two Feldon of the Third Path?
True card draw like Shamanic Revelation or impulsive card draw like Outpost Siege?
I tend to run (at least) six draw spells in a 60 card deck, preferably cards that are multipurpose. (Your STE'ves, Genesis Commands and Witnesses count for halves so I'd add at least two real draw spells.)
Discard and draw seven could be usefull too, seeing you run enough cards to get stuff from the yard.
Or you could also switch your lawnmowers for Heart Wardens.
I wonder if a Shamanic Revelation or three might be an option in place of the Primal Commands and Berserk. That would give me three plus the graveyard recycling, and would also replace the lifegain from the Commands.
Basically I would just remove some of the more anemic creatures/removal spells in favor of things that carried more "oomph." I'm fine with most of the cards in the deck but you can do better than Soul's Fire and Moonveil Dragon and while the Slime is a reasonable 5 drop it's not going to win games of magic against multiple adversaries. Drawing 1 per game? Sure. Drawing 2-3? Eh, pass. IMO Gruul should be all about ramp, fatties and "Earthquakes" or "Wildfires" which is why I want to see more + bigger ramp, more mass removal and better finishers.
To be fair, I made a lot choices in the deck because it was made for smaller games where I have a partner. The thought went that I would drop utility creatures that don't hose my team (otherwise the more recent Bane of Progress would be used for artifacts/enchantments). The Moonveil Dragon would then pump the army of smalls. In reality for some inexplicable reason, I rarely see the dragons and they are removed on sight when they do hit. The Soul's Fire is there for two reasons. Either I use it tactically with Acidic Slimes to kill any size creature (the slime does the damage) or I use it with a big creature to pound the face of my opponents.
Having said all that, I do like Clan Defiance. I use it in another deck and it is very functional in an Emperor's format. I'm also thinking of using Managorger Hydra over Taurean Mauler. What do you all think of Magmatic Force as a finisher, at least two of them? Or, I could replace with Verdant Force to better empower the Moonveils by giving it an army to pump.
Seems too easily blocked and a Lightning Bolt is useful but won't cut it against a nicely tuned multiplayer deck in the endstages of the game. (drawing several cards and/or fielding several threats per turn)
Let alone vs an unfair Spike deck.
It can probably take out one player if the table is still at a higher number of players. However when that drops to the last three or two it gets weaker.
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Hmm, I'm curious if we are talking about the same thing here. It sounds like you are referring to a FFA where the deck would have to fend off four to five opponents. I can tell you from practical experience that doesn't work, which is why I restricted it to smaller games. I'm totally tracking with the value of everything suggested so far, though a lot of other efficient creatures/spells would hose my team as well.
However, Inferno Titan and Clan Defiance are definitely integratable for the deck as it's formatted.
If we're talking small games then Territorial Hellkite starts to look rather absurd as a bonkers finisher. It's a Moonveil Dragon with Haste that costs 2 less. Moreover, if this is Emperor or 2HG or whatever then Fall of the Titans is also absurd. I play 2HG every now and then and I basically on ever field my Izzet Control deck that has 4x Fall of the Titans, 4x Territorial Hellkite, 4x Crush of Tentacles and then a ton of cheap permission.
Magmatic Force is stellar if you can reliably ramp up to 8 mana.
FWIW I realized that you were talking sbout smaller games but my suggestions still apply. I recommend cutting the same cards in the same quantities and I recommend replacing them with the same things. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is still great in duels/small game and Inferno Titan doesn't care how many players are floating around.
If we're talking small games then Territorial Hellkite starts to look rather absurd as a bonkers finisher. It's a Moonveil Dragon with Haste that costs 2 less. Moreover, if this is Emperor or 2HG or whatever then Fall of the Titans is also absurd. I play 2HG every now and then and I basically on ever field my Izzet Control deck that has 4x Fall of the Titans, 4x Territorial Hellkite, 4x Crush of Tentacles and then a ton of cheap permission.
Magmatic Force is stellar if you can reliably ramp up to 8 mana.
FWIW I realized that you were talking sbout smaller games but my suggestions still apply. I recommend cutting the same cards in the same quantities and I recommend replacing them with the same things. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is still great in duels/small game and Inferno Titan doesn't care how many players are floating around.
Neat cards. I have a question. Is your knock on the Moonveil basically that while it CAN be awesome with a horde of smalls because it pumps them all, it just doesn't pan out that often? That's what I've seen in any case.
I'm going to goldfish how long it takes me to get to eight. If it's not so quick, then I like the Inferno Titan over Magmatic Force.
As I rethink this, I'm seeing it shape up like this. The dragons are just too unreliable because they are dependent upon other creatures. More blast, more search for the creatures I need that have blast, and the hydras take care of themselves. Spot removal won't be able to stop the hydras AND titans in the same game. Reactions?
I think I could repeat my original reaction to your initial deck...
(-:
And I could add one other thing: if you think this is how your deck should be, just play it. You know your style and your meta best.
Most of the time, when I put up a deck for advice I hardly change a thing. And that's mostly because there's a feel of rightness to it in stead of a drive for the objective best...
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I think I could repeat my original reaction to your initial deck...
(-:
And I could add one other thing: if you think this is how your deck should be, just play it. You know your style and your meta best.
Most of the time, when I put up a deck for advice I hardly change a thing. And that's mostly because there's a feel of rightness to it in stead of a drive for the objective best...
I get that. I put this up because I often get myopic about my lists. I hadn't thought about either Clan Defiance or Inferno Titan, and I did have a feeling that it needed...something. I was not happy with the dragons and reactions here did confirm that my decklist was too reliant on creatures being around on the board that can't be reliably counted on.
I often don't drastically change things much either. It's all good, the outside viewpoints do help, even if I never plunk down for a Sylvan Primordial because my group dislikes them. I still learn from the interactions and what qualities from those cards do for decks. For example, even though Prid3 is totally warranted to say he told me so about mana ratios, because he did, increasing my lands by four in each deck made such a difference to my deck performance it can't be overstated. I shredded my group this weekend, not because I spent hundreds of $ for objective best (I don't have enough $ for that), but because I simply didn't have mana problems and the budget changes I'm making result in more balanced decks. Cheers.
Is your knock on the Moonveil basically that while it CAN be awesome with a horde of smalls because it pumps them all, it just doesn't pan out that often?
Yeah pretty much. You'll basically never see me propose 5+ CMC cards that die to removal at no significant benefit because those cards are too risky in my experience. It's far too easy to cast a card like Moonveil Dragon on an otherwise empty/small board, have it be Doom Bladed and find yourself at a massive disadvantage. That's why my 6 drops of choice tend to be things like Inferno Titan that never let me down. If someones kill it, no big deal, I'll take my 2-for-1. If it does survive it only takes 1-2 attacks to kill someone off because it clears blockers away and the pump is super relevant when you have access to 4+ red sources.
I play 2HG every now and then and I basically on ever field my Izzet Control deck that has 4x Fall of the Titans, 4x Territorial Hellkite, 4x Crush of Tentacles and then a ton of cheap permission.
Is Territorial Hellkite really an upgrade over Stormbreath Dragon in an izzet deck that's about returning their board given if you can Monstrosity him then swing in you can realistically hit them for around 20?
I play 2HG every now and then and I basically on ever field my Izzet Control deck that has 4x Fall of the Titans, 4x Territorial Hellkite, 4x Crush of Tentacles and then a ton of cheap permission.
Is Territorial Hellkite really an upgrade over Stormbreath Dragon in an izzet deck that's about returning their board given if you can Monstrosity him then swing in you can realistically hit them for around 20?
Yes, by a lot. Hellkite deals 12 damage by the time that Stormbreath deals 4. It's disgustingly good. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't fault you for playing both, but I HIGHLY recommend blindly jamming 4x Hellkite in 2HG. You really can't appreciate just how stupid that the card is until you actually cast it on turn 3-4, turn it sideways, then do the same thing on the following turn. I remember one game where my ally Snaped my lands on turn 2 and I we just laughed as we easily killed them a couple of turns later.
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I'm keeping the same working curve on critters, but will have far more independent performance from them, but now with more options for using endgame gluts of mana.
@Thijs1301, I'm going to see whether more tutoring serves me well (already have the extra Primals and Witness), because it usually does, but I do like the idea of swapping two Primals for mass card draw if I still run out of steam. Thanks for the analysis.
@Prid3, I really like Territorial Hellkite, a lot. But since our group plays Emperor more than any other game, the hellkite just won't perform consistently in that format with only one target to attack at a time on the wing, and no attacking from the center. The titan fills that roll so much better and can still come out turn four with some regularity. Between the titans and Clan Defiance, this deck should have a lot more burn to go with the crash.
For those who like to hear how upgrades fared, I got to play my new Inferno Titans in a recent 2-HG game. I easily ramped into both turn 4 and turn 5 titans. One got killed, the other cloned and then given firststrike to hold us at bay. But we got that clone taken out and the game ended quickly as I cast a third titan. Didn't see any of the other upgrades (managorger hydras or clan defiance), but the titans were all I needed. It was great seeing the deck dominate the team game. Thanks everyone!
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Taurean Mauler
3 Eternal Witness
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Acidic Slime
4 Moonveil Dragon
4 Primordial Hydra
2 Crater Hellion
1 Genesis
2 Primal Command
Instants:
4 Soul's Fire
1 Berserk
Lands:
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Gruul Turf
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Desert
7 Forest
3 Mountain
The deck does best in no more than four person FFA, though it does well enough in games like Two-Headed variants, Star, Emperor's, too. Beyond that, it runs out of steam.
In one game of two-headed giant, a Primordial Hydra grew unchecked to 48/48, whereupon I Berserked him and Soul's Fired the opposing team for 96 damage, and could have attacked for the same.
The problem is that some games I end up stuck in elf/slime hell and don't get much going. That happened just yesterday when I lent the deck to a friend. Was wanting to see what the group thought about ways to improve small game consistency while holding on to the simpler design for a teaching deck and the fun of the deck's name, Crash and Burn. I believe I can re-vamp at least 8-12 slots with upgrades. Taurean Maulers were identified yesterday as expendable in favor of Forgotten Ancient, though Managorger Hydra is also a direct improvement due to built-in trample and growth from every spell.
Any suggestions?
True card draw like Shamanic Revelation or impulsive card draw like Outpost Siege?
I tend to run (at least) six draw spells in a 60 card deck, preferably cards that are multipurpose. (Your STE'ves, Genesis Commands and Witnesses count for halves so I'd add at least two real draw spells.)
Discard and draw seven could be usefull too, seeing you run enough cards to get stuff from the yard.
Or you could also switch your lawnmowers for Heart Wardens.
Another route could be manasinks like Dragon Roost, Centaur Glade or Pyrohemia. (maybe there are better options but these came to mind)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
1x Berserk
4x Soul's Fire
2x Acidic Slime
4x Moonveil Dragon
What I would replace them with:
Hull Breach, Mizzium Mortars, Clan Defiance, Firespout, Tempt with Discovery, Decimate, Hour of Promise, Predatory Advantage, Shamanic Revelation, Xenagos, God of Revels, Dragon Broodmother, Inferno Titan, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, Mob Rule, Sylvan Primordial, Insurrection.
Basically I would just remove some of the more anemic creatures/removal spells in favor of things that carried more "oomph." I'm fine with most of the cards in the deck but you can do better than Soul's Fire and Moonveil Dragon and while the Slime is a reasonable 5 drop it's not going to win games of magic against multiple adversaries. Drawing 1 per game? Sure. Drawing 2-3? Eh, pass. IMO Gruul should be all about ramp, fatties and "Earthquakes" or "Wildfires" which is why I want to see more + bigger ramp, more mass removal and better finishers.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
The rest I can get behind.
(Moonveil even combos with the Shamanic Revelation...)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Having said all that, I do like Clan Defiance. I use it in another deck and it is very functional in an Emperor's format. I'm also thinking of using Managorger Hydra over Taurean Mauler. What do you all think of Magmatic Force as a finisher, at least two of them? Or, I could replace with Verdant Force to better empower the Moonveils by giving it an army to pump.
Let alone vs an unfair Spike deck.
It can probably take out one player if the table is still at a higher number of players. However when that drops to the last three or two it gets weaker.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
However, Inferno Titan and Clan Defiance are definitely integratable for the deck as it's formatted.
Managorger Hydra is awesome. Go for that swap.
Magmatic Force is stellar if you can reliably ramp up to 8 mana.
FWIW I realized that you were talking sbout smaller games but my suggestions still apply. I recommend cutting the same cards in the same quantities and I recommend replacing them with the same things. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is still great in duels/small game and Inferno Titan doesn't care how many players are floating around.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'm going to goldfish how long it takes me to get to eight. If it's not so quick, then I like the Inferno Titan over Magmatic Force.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Managorger Hydra
4 Eternal Witness
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Acidic Slime
4 Inferno Titan
4 Primordial Hydra
1 Genesis
4 Primal Command
4 Clan Defiance
Lands:
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Gruul Turf
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Desert
7 Forest
3 Mountain
(-:
And I could add one other thing: if you think this is how your deck should be, just play it. You know your style and your meta best.
Most of the time, when I put up a deck for advice I hardly change a thing. And that's mostly because there's a feel of rightness to it in stead of a drive for the objective best...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I often don't drastically change things much either. It's all good, the outside viewpoints do help, even if I never plunk down for a Sylvan Primordial because my group dislikes them. I still learn from the interactions and what qualities from those cards do for decks. For example, even though Prid3 is totally warranted to say he told me so about mana ratios, because he did, increasing my lands by four in each deck made such a difference to my deck performance it can't be overstated. I shredded my group this weekend, not because I spent hundreds of $ for objective best (I don't have enough $ for that), but because I simply didn't have mana problems and the budget changes I'm making result in more balanced decks. Cheers.
Yeah pretty much. You'll basically never see me propose 5+ CMC cards that die to removal at no significant benefit because those cards are too risky in my experience. It's far too easy to cast a card like Moonveil Dragon on an otherwise empty/small board, have it be Doom Bladed and find yourself at a massive disadvantage. That's why my 6 drops of choice tend to be things like Inferno Titan that never let me down. If someones kill it, no big deal, I'll take my 2-for-1. If it does survive it only takes 1-2 attacks to kill someone off because it clears blockers away and the pump is super relevant when you have access to 4+ red sources.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Is Territorial Hellkite really an upgrade over Stormbreath Dragon in an izzet deck that's about returning their board given if you can Monstrosity him then swing in you can realistically hit them for around 20?
Yes, by a lot. Hellkite deals 12 damage by the time that Stormbreath deals 4. It's disgustingly good. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't fault you for playing both, but I HIGHLY recommend blindly jamming 4x Hellkite in 2HG. You really can't appreciate just how stupid that the card is until you actually cast it on turn 3-4, turn it sideways, then do the same thing on the following turn. I remember one game where my ally Snaped my lands on turn 2 and I we just laughed as we easily killed them a couple of turns later.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
@Thijs1301, I'm going to see whether more tutoring serves me well (already have the extra Primals and Witness), because it usually does, but I do like the idea of swapping two Primals for mass card draw if I still run out of steam. Thanks for the analysis.
@Prid3, I really like Territorial Hellkite, a lot. But since our group plays Emperor more than any other game, the hellkite just won't perform consistently in that format with only one target to attack at a time on the wing, and no attacking from the center. The titan fills that roll so much better and can still come out turn four with some regularity. Between the titans and Clan Defiance, this deck should have a lot more burn to go with the crash.
Cheers.