The other thing that has piqued my curiosity, is madness.
Has anyone tried running madness style cards with looting effects and ascension before?
Then I thought, why not black?
The main reason to go Red/Black that I can see is Pyromancer Ascension + Waste Not.
Correct me if there's better options please.
Together with things like Looting, Burning Inquiry, Dark Deal, Reforge the Soul, Wheel etc. you could fuel Waste Not. Setting up PA would be easy here, especially given Black/Red has access to tutor, looting, discard and draw.
I expect a few of you to immediately point out that Waste Not doesn't need PA, LOL.
So what do you think?
Any good PA-centric builds I should give a good look for MP?
Copying wheel effects might lead to decking yourself. Though when the WN is on the table you've probably won by then.
(Maybe Megrim or Rise of the Dark Realms for lulz?)
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I've gone with Hailfire as a finisher, it works as an outlet for the mana WN can create.
I need the keep whatever finisher's black for this reason I think.
For the *flex slots* I'm considering adding another finisher. Rise of the Dark Realms is definitely an option, as is Death Cloud :evillol:, but really these could be anything that makes use black.
Possibly, it's a good idea for sure. Waste Not does create a lot of weenies once it gets going, but does require a bit of luck too.
To be honest, given the draw from WN isn't optional, I'm a little concerned about decking myself before I get to take down anyone, let alone the whole table. You're dead right to raise this thought! Cos I wanna go full stupid here, not pull back and play responsibly!
So I'm thinking the flex slots will be Glacial Chasm and I'll shave the lands down to fit 2-3 Perpetual Timepiece, as Time will help to fuel PA marginally but be there as my *oh crap!* button, and glacial chasm can be relevant at all stages of the game.
Yep I know I'm guilty of RTFC on occasion.... but not this time Reforge the Soul is the only card above 3cmc, which might be Wheel of Fate if necessary. I own both so whatevers LOL
Thing is, Glacial Chasm answers attacking creature threats as well as Burn etc., it can't be countered, and very few people run LD. Just so we're on the same page, I tested with 22 lands, 2 Timepiece.
Another card I've been thinking about is Worm Harvest. With all the looting, having cards that want to be dropped in the yard is useful.
I need to test this one though, I'm not sure about a full 4 being where I want to be. It's also slow, but this deck will fill the yard with lands pretty easily and Timepiece can leave them in the yard. Worm also works with the black mana from Waste Not and being able to double it with PA will be nice.
Hmmm.... what do you reckon?
Crypt Incursion and Living Death come to mind as well.
And that tripple black for Worm Harvest, is that doable with your landbase, should WN be removed?
That said; the Harvest looks good enough to run one or two.
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Yeah the mana-base isn't too bad. 22 total for now, numbers could change. I'm unlikely to drop more money on it.
4 Temple of Malice, 4 Sulfurous Springs, 4 Dragonskull Summit, 2 Lavaclaw Reaches, 2 Swamp, 6 Mountain.
Reaches is only in there due to Waste Not potentially creating a lot of mana.
OOC why Torment of Hailfire over Cut // Ribbons? Ribbons is the ideal win-con of choice because you can mindlessly loot it away until you actually dig into WN + Wheel at which point it happily ends the game while sitting in the GY. It also gives you access to some legitimate removal for the early stages of the game. It's the perfect closer for this style of deck :).
FWIW in a deck with Ascension I would almost always run 22 Lands and 4x Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame because you're heavily rewarded for playing 4-ofs of everything and so I'd rather have 4 Rituals than 2x Land and 2x Spell. This is especially true if you have Shadow of the Grave because at that point none of your spells cause much in the way of card disadvantage.
Thanks. And I agree - ritual's are always good with PA.
But bear in mind;
The spark to try PA with WN came from a storm-list I found online which was full of mana-cards together with Dream Salvage & some free mana.
I dumbed it down given our group is a mix of vets to almost-noobs, so the idea of discarding half of everyones' deck in a single turn accompanied with Waste Not, then throwing down a storm card is exactly where I'm going to score another *I'm-the-threat* badge.
Don't want another one....
Here's (a) version I decided not to pursue, with a few tweaks c/o recent suggestions here.
Given the likelihood of this pile decking itself in a MP environment, Shadow of the Grave is probably a safer option than Dream Salvage, but it might be a dead card on occasion if you're hunting for counters on PA? That said, to ensure you don't deck yourself, chucking in a single eldrazi would fix it should it be a concern.
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I'm looking for idea's. I'm considering building around Pyromancer Ascension.
Blue/Red seems natural for stuff like Faithless Looting, Careful Study, Steam Augury, Gifts Ungiven etc..
Given the natural filter approach of these, 4 Glacial Chasm together with MP burn-types like Flame Rift, Acidic Soil, Sizzle etc.
The other thing that has piqued my curiosity, is madness.
Has anyone tried running madness style cards with looting effects and ascension before?
Then I thought, why not black?
The main reason to go Red/Black that I can see is Pyromancer Ascension + Waste Not.
Correct me if there's better options please.
Together with things like Looting, Burning Inquiry, Dark Deal, Reforge the Soul, Wheel etc. you could fuel Waste Not. Setting up PA would be easy here, especially given Black/Red has access to tutor, looting, discard and draw.
I expect a few of you to immediately point out that Waste Not doesn't need PA, LOL.
So what do you think?
Any good PA-centric builds I should give a good look for MP?
Cheers
(Maybe Megrim or Rise of the Dark Realms for lulz?)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
What could possibly be more black-red than bombing all players stone-cold dead in a crazed act of suicide? LOL
Here's what I'm thinking, bearing in mind I predominantly play 4-8 player FFA's;
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Waste Not
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Dark Deal
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Torment of Hailfire
I've gone with Hailfire as a finisher, it works as an outlet for the mana WN can create.
I need the keep whatever finisher's black for this reason I think.
For the *flex slots* I'm considering adding another finisher.
Rise of the Dark Realms is definitely an option, as is Death Cloud :evillol:, but really these could be anything that makes use black.
Thoughts?
Like Young Pyromancer or another type of chump generator.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Waste Not does create a lot of weenies once it gets going, but does require a bit of luck too.
To be honest, given the draw from WN isn't optional, I'm a little concerned about decking myself before I get to take down anyone, let alone the whole table. You're dead right to raise this thought! Cos I wanna go full stupid here, not pull back and play responsibly!
So I'm thinking the flex slots will be Glacial Chasm and I'll shave the lands down to fit 2-3 Perpetual Timepiece, as Time will help to fuel PA marginally but be there as my *oh crap!* button, and glacial chasm can be relevant at all stages of the game.
However... the ancient Magic player in me can't help but say: running the Chasm ánd cutting lands? You did read the card, did you?
(-:
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Reforge the Soul is the only card above 3cmc, which might be Wheel of Fate if necessary. I own both so whatevers LOL
Thing is, Glacial Chasm answers attacking creature threats as well as Burn etc., it can't be countered, and very few people run LD. Just so we're on the same page, I tested with 22 lands, 2 Timepiece.
Another card I've been thinking about is Worm Harvest. With all the looting, having cards that want to be dropped in the yard is useful.
I need to test this one though, I'm not sure about a full 4 being where I want to be. It's also slow, but this deck will fill the yard with lands pretty easily and Timepiece can leave them in the yard. Worm also works with the black mana from Waste Not and being able to double it with PA will be nice.
Hmmm.... what do you reckon?
And that tripple black for Worm Harvest, is that doable with your landbase, should WN be removed?
That said; the Harvest looks good enough to run one or two.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
4 Temple of Malice, 4 Sulfurous Springs, 4 Dragonskull Summit, 2 Lavaclaw Reaches, 2 Swamp, 6 Mountain.
Reaches is only in there due to Waste Not potentially creating a lot of mana.
I like the idea of Crypt Incursion. Hmm....
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Waste Not
2 Perpetual Timepiece
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Dark Deal
4 Reforge the Soul
4 FLEX SLOTS
The Flex slots I haven't quite decided on yet. I may end up with a mix of Increasing Vengeance &/or Worm Harvest.
+4x Shadow of the Grave
+2x Ill-Gotten Gains
Something like that IMO. Other good options would be things like Innocent Blood, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame, Night's Whisper, Smallpox, Massacre, Languish, Seething Song.
FWIW in a deck with Ascension I would almost always run 22 Lands and 4x Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame because you're heavily rewarded for playing 4-ofs of everything and so I'd rather have 4 Rituals than 2x Land and 2x Spell. This is especially true if you have Shadow of the Grave because at that point none of your spells cause much in the way of card disadvantage.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
But bear in mind;
The spark to try PA with WN came from a storm-list I found online which was full of mana-cards together with Dream Salvage & some free mana.
I dumbed it down given our group is a mix of vets to almost-noobs, so the idea of discarding half of everyones' deck in a single turn accompanied with Waste Not, then throwing down a storm card is exactly where I'm going to score another *I'm-the-threat* badge.
Don't want another one....
Here's (a) version I decided not to pursue, with a few tweaks c/o recent suggestions here.
4 Waste Not
4 Pyromancer Ascension
4 Faithless Looting
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Dark Deal
4 Dream Salvage
4 Cut // Ribbons
Given the likelihood of this pile decking itself in a MP environment, Shadow of the Grave is probably a safer option than Dream Salvage, but it might be a dead card on occasion if you're hunting for counters on PA? That said, to ensure you don't deck yourself, chucking in a single eldrazi would fix it should it be a concern.