Hey team, I'm trying to build a value-orientated 5 color control deck that's extremely defensive in nature. What I have here is what I consider to be something close to my "core" and what I'm looking for now are ways to flesh this thing out or move a few cards around. My group adheres to a Legacy B&R list and I tend to build with 3 opponents in mind. I'm also not looking to break the bank or anything hence why there's no Deathrite Shaman package that includes a suite of Fetchlands and Shocklands. The deck has an uninteractive lifeloss subtheme because ideally I want to be able to win without ever turning a single creature sideways. I'd much rather sit back on Strixes and Rhinos while I slowly drain the table out. While I realize that DRS would help support that theme, again, he's just too expensive to support. Same idea for Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
Not sure how such a thing would work, but perhaps you could try to go somewhat toolboxy by playing 4 Bring to Light with 6 - 8 suitable targets. As in, the 6 - 8 best value creatures with cmc <=5.
Ever since it was spoiled, no 5 color deck should leave home without Cascading Cataracts imo.
While the card is good, I'm not really feeling Siege Rhino in a deck like this though. I'm sure there is something more impactfull and/or more resilient?
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Not sure how such a thing would work, but perhaps you could try to go somewhat toolboxy by playing 4 Bring to Light with 6 - 8 suitable targets. As in, the 6 - 8 best value creatures with cmc <=5.
Interesting. I hadn't considered this approach. I'll have to think this one over.
While the card is good, I'm not really feeling Siege Rhino in a deck like this though. I'm sure there is something more impactfull and/or more resilient?
It's cheap, a good blocker, a source of lifegain and the drain is relevant given my lifeloss sub theme.
What sort of archetypes are you expecting to play against? Your list would do well at my table, which has a lot of fair, creature combat-based decks. But I was given to understand that you have a more competitive group of opponents. Are you concerned about combo decks here? With a lack of instant-speed answers or a way to interact with artifacts & enchantments it seems like you've got a bad matchup against someone playing a Splinter Twin or Ad Nauseam-like deck. What about a catch-all answer like Anguished Unmaking?
Another matchup I'd worry about would be something like tokens that goes wide and doesn't really get slowed down by Crackling Doom or worry about trading with a Baleful Strix. If those are a concern then what about playing Pernicious Deed?
Hmmm... I wouldn't be me if I didn't suggest one or two Havengul Lich for a multicolor fun-n-mayhem type of deck...
Do you already have a revised list?
(And/or points you'd like suggestions on?)
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Hmmm... I wouldn't be me if I didn't suggest one or two Havengul Lich for a multicolor fun-n-mayhem type of deck...
Do you already have a revised list?
(And/or points you'd like suggestions on?)
I always update the OP with the current decklist.
I've always found the Lich to be massively overrated. If I wanted a solid 5 drop creature I would just play Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
Holy cow, I JUST realized that Goggles even doubles Cut // Ribbons. I'm sold.
Just the Cut part, correct?
NOPE!
4/18/2017 While not on the stack, the characteristics of a split card are the combination of its two halves. For example, Destined // Lead is a green and black card, it is both an instant card and a sorcery card, and its converted mana cost is 6... This is a change from the previous rules for split cards.
Holy cow, I JUST realized that Goggles even doubles Cut // Ribbons. I'm sold.
Just the Cut part, correct?
NOPE!
4/18/2017 While not on the stack, the characteristics of a split card are the combination of its two halves. For example, Destined // Lead is a green and black card, it is both an instant card and a sorcery card, and its converted mana cost is 6... This is a change from the previous rules for split cards.
I know your opinion on Wishes in general is quite low, but wouldn't some of those 1x cards fit really well into a Glittering Wish toolbox? There's plenty of cheap cards in your list you can grab + cast on turn 5 or so.
I know your opinion on Wishes in general is quite low, but wouldn't some of those 1x cards fit really well into a Glittering Wish toolbox? There's plenty of cheap cards in your list you can grab + cast on turn 5 or so.
Uh, that's not really a fair statement. I think that Wishes are horribly overpowered as they reward wallet size over skill and decision making. If I were to build the same deck with -4x [cards] and +4x Glittering Wish it would be like adding 4x Demonic Tutor that could always fetch the perfect answer for any given situation. Imagine having a "toolbox" suite of answers except your toolbox is extremely large and you don't have to waste any deckslots on situational cards that you wouldn't necessarily want to draw. Does that sound fair? Because it isn't. Moreover, it would also mean that I could play with 8x Crackling Doom and 8x Dark Intimations because there's nothing stopping you from owning more than 4 copies of a card and since Wishes explicitly state "any card" they're not bound by the 4 card maximum. That is, your Glittering Wishes become increasingly more powerful as you continue to invest in the game rather than always being created equal. Imagine handing a Glittering Wish version of this deck to two different players, one who is incredibly new to the game and the other being a 16 year veteran. The latter's Wishes would be strictly better and his deck would be strictly better for no other reason than he's invested more into the game and that's literally what "pay to win" entails. So yeah, my opinion of Wishes is "low" but only because of how oppressive that they are to play against because they literally turn Magic into a "pay to win" game. I would much rather defeat my opposition using my skill, strategy, decision making, etc. than simply wave money in their face which is why I never play with Wishes myself.
Oh, just so we're clear, I'm not saying that Magic doesn't have a baseline "pay to play" element involved. If I field a $5, 000.00 deck against someone with a $50.00 deck then I'm probably going to win. That's life and nothing is ever going to change that. I only take issue with legitimate "pay to win" mechanics whereby you can invest money to make your cards strictly better than those of your adversaries. That is, I don't give a damn if Mana Drain is expensive as long as everyone's Mana Drain does the exact same thing. My only issue with Glittering Wish is that mine are going to be strictly better than those of 99.99% of the playerbase simply because I've been playing and collecting cards for so much longer than they have.
That's what I meant. I've seen you ramble about Burning Wish enough times (and seen myself how oppressive it can be) to know your dislike of them is based entirely around them being both overpowered and unfairly biased in favor of players with more $$$ to spend on their infinite sideboards. You could still build this particular deck on a budget and limit your sideboard choices to 15 though. I don't see a huge difference between saying "Cards X and Y aren't in this deck because they're expensive and potentially oppressive" whether you're talking about fetches/shocks/DRS/Leovold or a wishboard. You're intentionally sandbagging your build to not include the most powerful options in the name of fun and accessibility either way.
I don't see a huge difference between saying "Cards X and Y aren't in this deck because they're expensive and potentially oppressive" whether you're talking about fetches/shocks/DRS/Leovold or a wishboard. You're intentionally sandbagging your build to not include the most powerful options in the name of fun and accessibility either way.
You don't see the difference between "I can't afford these cards period" and "I'm choosing not to play with cards that I own"?
The point I'm trying to make is that I don't see the difference between a player's budget giving them an advantage through an expensive, consistent mana base (or oppressive cards in the mainboard) or through access to a larger collection that can be Wished up. You're using money to win more games than you would have before either way. And both issues can be prevented by just limiting yourself in how you build your decks (or wishboard in this case), just like how you do when you present builds like this one that are extremely budget minded.
FWIW I completely agree with all your criticisms against using Wish cards in casual settings. I just find it weird to use budget and accessibility to expensive cards as a strike against them when the same can be said for building any deck.
The point I'm trying to make is that I don't see the difference between a player's budget giving them an advantage through an expensive, consistent mana base (or oppressive cards in the mainboard) or through access to a larger collection that can be Wished up. You're using money to win more games than you would have before either way.
Where I personally draw the line is when your Lightning Bolt deals 4 damage instead of 3 because you invested more into the game. That's my issue with Wishes. A card shouldn't be strictly better than an identical card owned by another player because your wallet is bigger.
Note, I'm not saying that I'm objectively right. If you or anyone wants to field 4x Glittering Wish, by all means. The card is absurdly powerful and will make the deck significantly more competitive.
I just find it weird to use budget and accessibility to expensive cards as a strike against them when the same can be said for building any deck.
It's not a strike nor an argument. When I say "I cannot afford N" the only claim that I'm making is that I cannot afford to acquire that card and put it in my deck. That's it. I would like to own and drive a McLaren F1 but I can't because it's too expensive. That isn't the same thing as saying that "it's a bad car" nor "other people shouldn't acquire one if they're able to." The only claim that I'm making is that I'm unable to foot the 14 million dollar bill. I don't know why you keep trying to argue this point when it's not a matter of choice.
You can choose to ride your bike to work even when you own a car. You cannot choose to fly a helicopter to work if you can't afford to acquire one in the first place.
By the way, if anyone is wondering where my hatred of Wishes first started it's Living Wish. Most people (for good reason) probably don't understand what it does to the game when you can start a deck with 8x Cloudpost because your 4x Living Wish can grab an entire additional playset at will. Don't need another Post? Cool, go ahead and grab any creature in the game. Some people are probably thinking "oh please, you can already field cards like Crop Rotation" but you definitely can't appreciate just how obnoxious that it is until you actually play against a list that has 4x Cloudpost, 4x Glimmerpost, 4x Expedition Map, 4x Crop Rotation and 4x Living Wish. It does crazy stupid things to the game when you're allowed to field more than 4 copies of Cloudpost in a given deck. Bear in mind that all of this is ignoring the fact that Living Wish is also a Demonic Tutor for any creature/land in the game without having to waste deckslots on cards that you wouldn't normally want to draw. It's utterly ridiculous to play against.
I've been trying to tweak the deck slightly to include 2x Goggles and make the most of them. Unfortunately there isn't much to replace Painful Truths/Deathreap Ritual that works with them. Guided Passage will probably get you land, Strix, Fellwar Stone every time. Even copied that isn't great. Steam Augury has the dumb punisher mechanic. Tormenting Voice and friends aren't any good without goggles and the deck isn't looking to dig into a pair at all costs. Pretty sure 1x Goggles is the right number.
4x Nomad Outpost
4x Crumbling Necropolis
4x Sandsteppe Citadel
4x Exotic Orchard
4x Pillar of the Paruns
4x Reflecting Pool
Creatures (12)
4x Baleful Strix
3x Kambal, Consul of Allocation
4x Siege Rhino
1x Notion Thief
4x Fellwar Stone
2x Cut // Ribbons
1x Hull Breach
4x Crackling Doom
2x Firespout
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Painful Truths
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Deathreap Ritual
4x Dark Intimations
1x Pyromancer's Goggles
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Hey team, I'm trying to build a value-orientated 5 color control deck that's extremely defensive in nature. What I have here is what I consider to be something close to my "core" and what I'm looking for now are ways to flesh this thing out or move a few cards around. My group adheres to a Legacy B&R list and I tend to build with 3 opponents in mind. I'm also not looking to break the bank or anything hence why there's no Deathrite Shaman package that includes a suite of Fetchlands and Shocklands. The deck has an uninteractive lifeloss subtheme because ideally I want to be able to win without ever turning a single creature sideways. I'd much rather sit back on Strixes and Rhinos while I slowly drain the table out. While I realize that DRS would help support that theme, again, he's just too expensive to support. Same idea for Leovold, Emissary of Trest.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Not sure how such a thing would work, but perhaps you could try to go somewhat toolboxy by playing 4 Bring to Light with 6 - 8 suitable targets. As in, the 6 - 8 best value creatures with cmc <=5.
Ever since it was spoiled, no 5 color deck should leave home without Cascading Cataracts imo.
While the card is good, I'm not really feeling Siege Rhino in a deck like this though. I'm sure there is something more impactfull and/or more resilient?
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
I might run 1-2.
Interesting. I hadn't considered this approach. I'll have to think this one over.
That card is unplayable trash since it doesn't enable you to cast any of your spells until you access to 6+ sources of mana.
It's cheap, a good blocker, a source of lifegain and the drain is relevant given my lifeloss sub theme.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Not really. The card is playable but nothing special.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Another matchup I'd worry about would be something like tokens that goes wide and doesn't really get slowed down by Crackling Doom or worry about trading with a Baleful Strix. If those are a concern then what about playing Pernicious Deed?
It may be too ambitious, but a single Pyromancer's Goggles works well with Crackling Doom and Dark Intimations.
Wear // Tear or Merciless Eviction for multiple removal options.
A Yawgmoth's Will to finish off?
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I think that Gray Merchant of Asphodel would actually work better.
Both seem great.
Holy cow, I JUST realized that Goggles even doubles Cut // Ribbons. I'm sold.
I'm good with 4x Baleful Strix, 1x Painful Truths, 1x Deathreap Ritual, 4x Dark Intimations and 1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis.
Then again maybe I'm an idiot for not playing Cruel Ultimatum.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Do you already have a revised list?
(And/or points you'd like suggestions on?)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I always update the OP with the current decklist.
I've always found the Lich to be massively overrated. If I wanted a solid 5 drop creature I would just play Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
The biggest change that I'm considering is -2x Nightveil Specter and +2x [Mass Removal]. Something like Radiant Flames.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Just the Cut part, correct?
NOPE!
4/18/2017 While not on the stack, the characteristics of a split card are the combination of its two halves. For example, Destined // Lead is a green and black card, it is both an instant card and a sorcery card, and its converted mana cost is 6... This is a change from the previous rules for split cards.
We be doubling our Ribbons .
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Woah! Nice find. I must do this.
Uh, that's not really a fair statement. I think that Wishes are horribly overpowered as they reward wallet size over skill and decision making. If I were to build the same deck with -4x [cards] and +4x Glittering Wish it would be like adding 4x Demonic Tutor that could always fetch the perfect answer for any given situation. Imagine having a "toolbox" suite of answers except your toolbox is extremely large and you don't have to waste any deckslots on situational cards that you wouldn't necessarily want to draw. Does that sound fair? Because it isn't. Moreover, it would also mean that I could play with 8x Crackling Doom and 8x Dark Intimations because there's nothing stopping you from owning more than 4 copies of a card and since Wishes explicitly state "any card" they're not bound by the 4 card maximum. That is, your Glittering Wishes become increasingly more powerful as you continue to invest in the game rather than always being created equal. Imagine handing a Glittering Wish version of this deck to two different players, one who is incredibly new to the game and the other being a 16 year veteran. The latter's Wishes would be strictly better and his deck would be strictly better for no other reason than he's invested more into the game and that's literally what "pay to win" entails. So yeah, my opinion of Wishes is "low" but only because of how oppressive that they are to play against because they literally turn Magic into a "pay to win" game. I would much rather defeat my opposition using my skill, strategy, decision making, etc. than simply wave money in their face which is why I never play with Wishes myself.
Oh, just so we're clear, I'm not saying that Magic doesn't have a baseline "pay to play" element involved. If I field a $5, 000.00 deck against someone with a $50.00 deck then I'm probably going to win. That's life and nothing is ever going to change that. I only take issue with legitimate "pay to win" mechanics whereby you can invest money to make your cards strictly better than those of your adversaries. That is, I don't give a damn if Mana Drain is expensive as long as everyone's Mana Drain does the exact same thing. My only issue with Glittering Wish is that mine are going to be strictly better than those of 99.99% of the playerbase simply because I've been playing and collecting cards for so much longer than they have.
Pay to play is fine, pay to win isn't.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
What incentive do I have to self-impose an arbitrary restriction that's only applicable to me?
You don't see the difference between "I can't afford these cards period" and "I'm choosing not to play with cards that I own"?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
FWIW I completely agree with all your criticisms against using Wish cards in casual settings. I just find it weird to use budget and accessibility to expensive cards as a strike against them when the same can be said for building any deck.
I'm fine with Lightning Bolt costing $50.00 as long as everyone's Lighting Bolt does the same thing.
Where I personally draw the line is when your Lightning Bolt deals 4 damage instead of 3 because you invested more into the game. That's my issue with Wishes. A card shouldn't be strictly better than an identical card owned by another player because your wallet is bigger.
Note, I'm not saying that I'm objectively right. If you or anyone wants to field 4x Glittering Wish, by all means. The card is absurdly powerful and will make the deck significantly more competitive.
It's not a strike nor an argument. When I say "I cannot afford N" the only claim that I'm making is that I cannot afford to acquire that card and put it in my deck. That's it. I would like to own and drive a McLaren F1 but I can't because it's too expensive. That isn't the same thing as saying that "it's a bad car" nor "other people shouldn't acquire one if they're able to." The only claim that I'm making is that I'm unable to foot the 14 million dollar bill. I don't know why you keep trying to argue this point when it's not a matter of choice.
You can choose to ride your bike to work even when you own a car. You cannot choose to fly a helicopter to work if you can't afford to acquire one in the first place.
I'm definitely considering that card.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
How would something like this look? Any cuts or things you would add to it? Stuff like Panoptic Mirror, Utter End, Pernicious Deed (although it hits all your rocks), Mimic Vat, Legacy Weapon, Paradox Engine, Damia, Sage of Stone, Siege Rhino (good creature to stall and good ability).
Creatures (8)
4 Baleful Strix
1 Thraximundar
2 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Maelstrom Wanderer
Spells (28)
1 Sol Ring
4 Fellwar Stone
1 Hull Breach
4 Coalition Relic
4 Crackling Doom
1 Guided Passage
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Deathreap Ritual
1 Decimate
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Pyromancer's Goggles
4 Dark Intimations
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
24 Lands