Curving (Enlightened Tutor into) Genesis Chamber into Oketra's Monument into Squadron Hawk/Kor Skyfisher/Whitemane Lion is extremely powerful given that it enables you to convert all of your excess mana into at least two 1/1s. After all, you can elect to have your Skyfishers/Lions bounce themselves to their own triggers in order to perpetuate the cycle indefinitely. This makes these types of sequences extremely similar to the good old Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek combo which has seen competitive play in both Modern and Legacy. The Squadron Hawk line literally puts twelve bodies into play on turn 4 which is utterly absurd when you stop to think about it. Otherwise the deck has Enlightened Tutor to bolster its consistency and Apostle's Blessing + Treasure Hunter to provide it with some resilience against opposing interaction.
In terms of resilience your biggest fallback is Mistveil Plains + Squadron Hawk. The idea here is that as long as you always sandbag 1-2 Hawks in hand then you can infinitely recur them. Note that you have Oreskos Explorer to find your Mistveil Plains so you're realistically playing 5 virtual copies of the card.
The biggest "trick" to this deck is knowing what to lead with and why. Whenever possible you always want to cast Kor Skyfisher over Whitemane Lion given that it enables you to respond to removal on your Skyfisher with the Lion in order to preserve both threats. They respond to that? That's when you hit them with Apostle's Blessing for the full blowout. Clearly this won't always be an option but you should get into the habit of leading with your "vulnerable" threats first because worst case scenario it still enables you to bluff your tricks (namely Whitemane Lion and Apostle's Blessing).
An interesting tidbit about Treasure Hunter is that you can bounce him with excess copies of cards like Whitemane Lion and Kor Skyfisher in order to combat large quantities of artifact removal. Given enough exile effects and removal spells you'll eventually run out of steam but not without putting up one Hell of a fight first. This ensures that the deck doesn't roll over and die the first time that it eats a Beast Within or whatever.
Apostle's Blessing is the most powerful defensive trick for the deck given that it protects both your creatures and your artifacts which is why it gets the nod over the alternatives. There are better ways to protect just creatures or just artifacts but nothing else can offer the sheer flexibility that the Blessing offers. If you're aren't concerned about spot removal then you can feel free to omit them but the card does work.
The deck could obviously be built without Enlightened Tutor for budgetary reasons but the deck is like basically free otherwise and so I encourage players to invest them if at all possible. I realize that they cost more than the entire rest of the deck but the build is so much scarier when it curves Genesis Chamber into Oketra's Monument as opposed to missing one of those key drops. This is the best excuse that you'll ever have to invest in E.Tutors and once you're done building/playing this list you can shuffle them across your other decks.
What about Sram's expertise? Three 1/1's and play another three drop or less seems like an okay spell.
It does seem good yes. The problem that I have with spells is that, well, they kinda suck assuming that I have Genesis Chamber + Oketra's Monument in play because at that point even Suntail Hawk puts 3 bodies into play. I'm obviously not going to play Suntail Hawk but you see what I'm saying. basically I want a creature like Eyeless Watcher if at all possible. Maybe Blade Splicer? That cards seems like gas with Whitemane Lion. Are there are any other 3-4 CMC White creatures that put 3+ bodies into play? Hero of Bladehold and that's it? Hero does seem great though. I really want to find more multi-bodies threats if possible because creatures pair so much better with my Artifacts.
If you can't find additional suitable 3-4 CMC creatures, maybe Cloudstone Curio to replay the good ones you already have. You already have the Enlightened Tutors to play just 1-2 and fetch em up when needed.
Knight-Captain of Eos seems a better 5 drop than the Angel. You're pumping out soldiers with the Hero and having the fog effect seems a bit better than the anthem considering you're aiming to win via Purph anyway. Helps cover the corner cases like Consuming Aberration + Rogue's Passage.
If you can't find additional suitable 3-4 CMC creatures, maybe Cloudstone Curio to replay the good ones you already have. You already have the Enlightened Tutors to play just 1-2 and fetch em up when needed.
I'm not in the market for additonal do-nothing artifacts that reward me for casting creatures. I'm significantly more worried about having a critical mass of critters with which to abuse with them. I could totally understand it if someone played one over an Oketra's Monument, that seems eminently reasonable, but it's an extremely minor change that shouldn't matter much either way.
Knight-Captain of Eos is in my cube, and does a surprisingly good job of playing fog combo. It would allow you to durdle away and kill people with Impact Tremors, without even needing to bother with attacking or defending. Geist-Honored Monk might be worth a shout, too - that thing annoys the heck out of me when I face it.
Still, we're diving into 5CC stuff now, and that gets away from the 3-4CC stuff you're chasing. Hero of Bladehold is good, but the fact that it needs to swing to produce tokens bothers me a bit. I've had good times with Twilight Drover before... janky, vulnerable card, but an absolute machine gun when it gets rolling.
Knight-Captain of Eos is in my cube, and does a surprisingly good job of playing fog combo. It would allow you to durdle away and kill people with Impact Tremors, without even needing to bother with attacking or defending. Geist-Honored Monk might be worth a shout, too - that thing annoys the heck out of me when I face it.
There's like ten different 5 drops that put upwards of 4 bodies into play ("Cloudgoat Rangers") but if possible I'd like to find cards that I could cast for lower sums of mana.
There's like ten different 5 drops that put upwards of 4 bodies into play ("Cloudgoat Rangers") but if possible I'd like to find cards that I could cast for lower sums of mana.
A quick search really only handed me the things capable of pumping out multiple tokens across multiple turns - Twilight Drover, Thraben Doomsayer and Custodi Soulbinders.
I remember searching for decent 3-drop token generators when I was building Trostani / Mimic Vat combo with Sun Titans onboard, and we came to the conclusion back then that Blade Splicer was the best 3-drop white token producer printed. Don't think it's changed much since then.
Are there are any other 3-4 CMC White creatures that put 3+ bodies into play? Hero of Bladehold and that's it? Hero does seem great though. I really want to find more multi-bodies threats if possible because creatures pair so much better with my Artifacts.
I considered that card but it strikes me as being too win-more in my current build. It's just another combo piece that doesn't do anything on its own unless I draw the perfect sequence of spells and my deck already has far, far, far too many of those.
Don't get me wrong, I could definitely see that card working, but my deck would look something like:
What about a mono White Soul Sisters build with Aetherflux Reservoir for something other than Ye Olde Purphoros Token Kill? You can probably build up some pretty insane storm counts with the cost reduction and self bounce, and you'll also have a boatload of Sisters triggers from the monument.
What about a mono White Soul Sisters build with Aetherflux Reservoir for something other than Ye Olde Purphoros Token Kill? You can probably build up some pretty insane storm counts with the cost reduction and self bounce, and you'll also have a boatload of Sisters triggers from the monument.
I've been thinking about adding Phyrexian Altar to the list given that it enables infinite combos with any ETB/dies trigger. This monowhite combo avenue is definitely worth exploring.
The interaction between monument and the self-bouncers is almost Thopter Foundry levels of good. Any incidental pieces in the deck, like soul sister, automatically make it stronger.
Cool deck! Norin the Soul Sister is an old, fun concept, but I really like how this deck doesn't solely rely on him, which was a weakness in that deck.
It may be worth testing Stonecloaker over Kor Skyfisher. I know the cost reduction to a single mana is important, but Stonecloaker fills a different spot in the curve, provides flying defense, albiet worse than Kor Skyfisher, and most importantly, like Whitemane Lion, has flash which allows you to blank removal or fog a creature. Not to mention, it also handles graveyard shenanigans.
Additionally, although you probably used them to keep the deck budget,the amount of tap lands in the deck is simply too high, unless your meta is super slow. If my assumption is correct, one suggestion to those looking at this deck thinking about building it would be to invest in better duals, but when is that not the case, right?
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
The interaction between monument and the self-bouncers is almost Thopter Foundry levels of good. Any incidental pieces in the deck, like soul sister, automatically make it stronger.
It may be worth testing Stonecloaker over Kor Skyfisher. I know the cost reduction to a single mana is important, but Stonecloaker fills a different spot in the curve, provides flying defense, albiet worse than Kor Skyfisher, and most importantly, like Whitemane Lion, has flash which allows you to blank removal or fog a creature. Not to mention, it also handles graveyard shenanigans.
Did. Everything that you said has merit but at the end of the day it's 1 CMC vs 2 CMC and when you're not getting 100% more value for 100% more cost. I could see myself playing 1-2 but this deck needs 4x Whitemane Lion and 4x Kor Skyfisher in order to function. When you curve turn 2 Genesis Chamber, turn 3 Oketra's Monument into 4x Squadron Hawk to put TWELVE 1/1s into play and then spend the rest of the game converting all of your excess mana into 1/1s you'll understand exactly what I'm saying.
Additionally, although you probably used them to keep the deck budget,the amount of tap lands in the deck is simply too high, unless your meta is super slow. If my assumption is correct, one suggestion to those looking at this deck thinking about building it would be to invest in better duals, but when is that not the case, right?
The deck plays 14 Red sources because that's the quantity that it necessitates in order to consistently cast its spells. Otherwise, yes, I purposely posted the ultra-budget options but would encourage players to field whatever they can afford. Painlands, Checklands, Shocklands, Fetches, whatever you can afford is clearly going to be an upgrade.
I'm cutting Red. The deck doesn't need it. If you can afford a good manabase filled with Arid Mesas and Sacred Foundrys then go for it but otherwise you don't need anything special to win. You can just jam 1/1s into play and eventually everyone will die.
The synergy is powerful, but it seems like it could get annoying to track all of those counters from Cathars' Crusade with likely a different number on each creature and a new pile to add with each cast. Or does anyone have a handy suggestion for keeping so many counters and tokens straight?
The synergy is powerful, but it seems like it could get annoying to track all of those counters from Cathars' Crusade with likely a different number on each creature and a new pile to add with each cast. Or does anyone have a handy suggestion for keeping so many counters and tokens straight?
Nope. Just cut Crusade and field things like Intangible Virtue, Crescendo of War or Eldrazi Monument instead. Otherwise you kinda just have to hope that your opponents will scoop unless someone has the mass removal spell and even then you just keep presenting lethal until they fail to have it. After all, let's face it, by the time that you can actually cast Cathars' Crusade then you're probably putting close to 100 power into play every turn so it doesn't really matter how big they are. The answer will virtually always be "enough to kill everything that you have in play and hit you for lethal" which is all that matters.
So far in my testing, the Boros version feels the most powerful, but I'm trying the Mono-White version as well.
Ephara, God of the Polis could be an powerful way to use your Whitemane Lion to draw cards in an Azorius version.
Ruling Question: If we were to add Leonin Relic-Warder to the deck, could it be used to permanently exile a target if you used Whitemane Lion to bounce it in response to the ability going on the stack?
21x Plains
1x Mistveil Plains
Creatures (20)
4x Squadron Hawk
4x Whitemane Lion
4x Kor Skyfisher
4x Oreskos Explorer
2x Treasure Hunter
2x Stonecloaker
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Genesis Chamber
2x Apostle's Blessing
4x Oketra's Monument
4x Anointed Procession
Curving (Enlightened Tutor into) Genesis Chamber into Oketra's Monument into Squadron Hawk/Kor Skyfisher/Whitemane Lion is extremely powerful given that it enables you to convert all of your excess mana into at least two 1/1s. After all, you can elect to have your Skyfishers/Lions bounce themselves to their own triggers in order to perpetuate the cycle indefinitely. This makes these types of sequences extremely similar to the good old Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek combo which has seen competitive play in both Modern and Legacy. The Squadron Hawk line literally puts twelve bodies into play on turn 4 which is utterly absurd when you stop to think about it. Otherwise the deck has Enlightened Tutor to bolster its consistency and Apostle's Blessing + Treasure Hunter to provide it with some resilience against opposing interaction.
In terms of resilience your biggest fallback is Mistveil Plains + Squadron Hawk. The idea here is that as long as you always sandbag 1-2 Hawks in hand then you can infinitely recur them. Note that you have Oreskos Explorer to find your Mistveil Plains so you're realistically playing 5 virtual copies of the card.
The biggest "trick" to this deck is knowing what to lead with and why. Whenever possible you always want to cast Kor Skyfisher over Whitemane Lion given that it enables you to respond to removal on your Skyfisher with the Lion in order to preserve both threats. They respond to that? That's when you hit them with Apostle's Blessing for the full blowout. Clearly this won't always be an option but you should get into the habit of leading with your "vulnerable" threats first because worst case scenario it still enables you to bluff your tricks (namely Whitemane Lion and Apostle's Blessing).
An interesting tidbit about Treasure Hunter is that you can bounce him with excess copies of cards like Whitemane Lion and Kor Skyfisher in order to combat large quantities of artifact removal. Given enough exile effects and removal spells you'll eventually run out of steam but not without putting up one Hell of a fight first. This ensures that the deck doesn't roll over and die the first time that it eats a Beast Within or whatever.
Apostle's Blessing is the most powerful defensive trick for the deck given that it protects both your creatures and your artifacts which is why it gets the nod over the alternatives. There are better ways to protect just creatures or just artifacts but nothing else can offer the sheer flexibility that the Blessing offers. If you're aren't concerned about spot removal then you can feel free to omit them but the card does work.
The deck could obviously be built without Enlightened Tutor for budgetary reasons but the deck is like basically free otherwise and so I encourage players to invest them if at all possible. I realize that they cost more than the entire rest of the deck but the build is so much scarier when it curves Genesis Chamber into Oketra's Monument as opposed to missing one of those key drops. This is the best excuse that you'll ever have to invest in E.Tutors and once you're done building/playing this list you can shuffle them across your other decks.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
It does seem good yes. The problem that I have with spells is that, well, they kinda suck assuming that I have Genesis Chamber + Oketra's Monument in play because at that point even Suntail Hawk puts 3 bodies into play. I'm obviously not going to play Suntail Hawk but you see what I'm saying. basically I want a creature like Eyeless Watcher if at all possible. Maybe Blade Splicer? That cards seems like gas with Whitemane Lion. Are there are any other 3-4 CMC White creatures that put 3+ bodies into play? Hero of Bladehold and that's it? Hero does seem great though. I really want to find more multi-bodies threats if possible because creatures pair so much better with my Artifacts.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I'm not in the market for additonal do-nothing artifacts that reward me for casting creatures. I'm significantly more worried about having a critical mass of critters with which to abuse with them. I could totally understand it if someone played one over an Oketra's Monument, that seems eminently reasonable, but it's an extremely minor change that shouldn't matter much either way.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Geist-Honored Monk might be worth a shout, too - that thing annoys the heck out of me when I face it.
Still, we're diving into 5CC stuff now, and that gets away from the 3-4CC stuff you're chasing. Hero of Bladehold is good, but the fact that it needs to swing to produce tokens bothers me a bit. I've had good times with Twilight Drover before... janky, vulnerable card, but an absolute machine gun when it gets rolling.
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
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Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
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There's like ten different 5 drops that put upwards of 4 bodies into play ("Cloudgoat Rangers") but if possible I'd like to find cards that I could cast for lower sums of mana.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
A quick search really only handed me the things capable of pumping out multiple tokens across multiple turns - Twilight Drover, Thraben Doomsayer and Custodi Soulbinders.
I remember searching for decent 3-drop token generators when I was building Trostani / Mimic Vat combo with Sun Titans onboard, and we came to the conclusion back then that Blade Splicer was the best 3-drop white token producer printed. Don't think it's changed much since then.
I guess there's Hordeling Outburst...
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Brimaz, King of Oreskos.
In my group, I'd personally drop the tutors for something like Dusk // Dawn. It's anti-synergistic with Hero of Bladehold, Brimaz and Stonecloaker, but you could always swap those for different forms of gas (Blade Splicer, Jeskai Barricade if you want the bounce, etc.).
Twilight Drover loves Eldrazi Monument, too.
I considered that card but it strikes me as being too win-more in my current build. It's just another combo piece that doesn't do anything on its own unless I draw the perfect sequence of spells and my deck already has far, far, far too many of those.
Don't get me wrong, I could definitely see that card working, but my deck would look something like:
4x Whitemane Lion
4x Jeskai Barricade
4x Countless Gears Renegade
4x Kor Skyfisher
4x Blade Splicer
As opposed to what I have now. Then again, that deck does seem sweet doesn't it?
Yeah this card has to be broken. This deck keeps getting scarier and scarier. I am getting legitimately excited about this build boys and girls .
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I've been thinking about adding Phyrexian Altar to the list given that it enables infinite combos with any ETB/dies trigger. This monowhite combo avenue is definitely worth exploring.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
It may be worth testing Stonecloaker over Kor Skyfisher. I know the cost reduction to a single mana is important, but Stonecloaker fills a different spot in the curve, provides flying defense, albiet worse than Kor Skyfisher, and most importantly, like Whitemane Lion, has flash which allows you to blank removal or fog a creature. Not to mention, it also handles graveyard shenanigans.
Additionally, although you probably used them to keep the deck budget,the amount of tap lands in the deck is simply too high, unless your meta is super slow. If my assumption is correct, one suggestion to those looking at this deck thinking about building it would be to invest in better duals, but when is that not the case, right?
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Waylay is awful but the Marshal seems like he'd be solid in the Boros version of the deck.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
waylay hits for 6 with a purphoros, God of the forge out.
Before it got errata a few years ago, it was able to be used as a ball lightning
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Exactly.
Did. Everything that you said has merit but at the end of the day it's 1 CMC vs 2 CMC and when you're not getting 100% more value for 100% more cost. I could see myself playing 1-2 but this deck needs 4x Whitemane Lion and 4x Kor Skyfisher in order to function. When you curve turn 2 Genesis Chamber, turn 3 Oketra's Monument into 4x Squadron Hawk to put TWELVE 1/1s into play and then spend the rest of the game converting all of your excess mana into 1/1s you'll understand exactly what I'm saying.
The deck plays 14 Red sources because that's the quantity that it necessitates in order to consistently cast its spells. Otherwise, yes, I purposely posted the ultra-budget options but would encourage players to field whatever they can afford. Painlands, Checklands, Shocklands, Fetches, whatever you can afford is clearly going to be an upgrade.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Nope. Just cut Crusade and field things like Intangible Virtue, Crescendo of War or Eldrazi Monument instead. Otherwise you kinda just have to hope that your opponents will scoop unless someone has the mass removal spell and even then you just keep presenting lethal until they fail to have it. After all, let's face it, by the time that you can actually cast Cathars' Crusade then you're probably putting close to 100 power into play every turn so it doesn't really matter how big they are. The answer will virtually always be "enough to kill everything that you have in play and hit you for lethal" which is all that matters.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Ephara, God of the Polis could be an powerful way to use your Whitemane Lion to draw cards in an Azorius version.
Ruling Question: If we were to add Leonin Relic-Warder to the deck, could it be used to permanently exile a target if you used Whitemane Lion to bounce it in response to the ability going on the stack?